New Mars Forums

AJ,
I forgot to mention this in my post...

As for the importance of local sunrise/set, I suppose a religious Martian can either keep track of sunrise/set times from his hometown on earth, and either recognize it at those moments, or adjust them a couple of hours in either direction to match up with Martian local sunrise/set.  This would be the most complicated part of this idea of mine, however its still not that hard, here's an example.

Say its tuesday night at your home in central Chryse, you know that back in you hometown (or the terran international date line or any other arbitrary line of longitude) sunrise on sunday will occur at noon wednsday at Chryse.
One could choose to recognize The whole day wednsday as the sabbath, or only when sunrise occurs on Earth...
Not too hard, and it leaves religious practice up to the religious without it saturating a calander that is meant for keeping time, not keeping track of religious days.
(I'm sure the season will be of upmost importance to the people of mars)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

AJ
Actually my suggestion isn't all that obtrusive when you look at the whole picture...
Think about it,  These seemingly random times will occur at regular intervals, It just won't occur in syncronization with Martian days.
And when you think about it some more, no doubt most people who will live on Mars will be religious, as most people here on Earth are.  So everyone will decide to take the day off at the same "seemingly random" times. (which actually won't seem random at all to the people who practice these religions and will no doubt keep track of such things using very simple timepieces.)
As for the question of orthodoxy, I think it would more in keeping with a faith to keep the timeframes the same as they are on Earth, the way they have been practiced for millenia.
Of course it would be left up to best judgement whether or not to go to work on a sabbath or otherwise important date. (just as it is here by the way) 
We already have an arbitrary week here on Earth that religious holidays and sabbaths are atuned to, why not just keep using it on Mars and keep a martian calander functional and accurate according to the actual time of the year (by this I mean position of Mars in its orbit)
Explain to me why this is more obtrusive than sabbaths and holidays already are here on Earth.
I mean, it is completely arbitrary that people take off a couple of days every five or six days.

I have no realistic desires for Mars politically, economically,  and culturally.  I realize it would be futile to try to eliminate religion, just as it would be to eliminate communism, capitalism, socialism, or any other "ism" from the part of humanity that lives there.
People will be people, they will bring and use what they want on Mars out of Necesity and preference.  It will be up to the people who go there to either work out a way that does not involve the unchallenged desicions of a leader or to be able to resist whenever oppression occurs.

Anyway, me being non-religious has no doubt influenced this, but it seemed to me the most logical thing to do (which may have been a bad way to go around it seeing how religion hardly ever bases itself upon logic, heh heh)
There is a great flaw in this that I would like to point out though, it keeps religion tied with Earth, and kindof prohibits any kind of new Mars based (insert faith here) to evolve.
Although it leaves the doors wide open for new faiths that are wholly Mars based to arise (however weird they might be)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Now, here is a very simple rule that I have learned personally through my experience on the now nearly deceased Civ-Culture list...

Do not reply to hostile posts.

You'll only drive the argument deeper, and push the rest of us away from constructive discussion.
If you feel insulted or personally attacked, let the person who is insulting you embarass themself, do not succumb, because then you look childish too.
Trust Adrian to cut short any potential flame wars from the starting embers.  Just dont feed the flames.
Scott, as for the destiny hall thing, you had to know that what you were suggesting so simply was going to offend someone.  However I commend you on not getting fiesty about defending your position.
Now Cindy, I think that your most recent post on this thread was a tad out of line, because it is very off-topic.
You should have e-mailed scott personally, or started a new thread and invite Adrian to arbitrate...

I've said my piece, anyone have any further thoughts on this whole calander bit?

Your friendly neighborhood (probably just provoked something) Martian....
-Matt

As for the calendar itself, I personally think it would be best if we inflated seconds to match the length of the day, that is if the 60:60:24   seconds:minutes:hours that we use here will be used there.
Perhaps if there is no syncronization between terran and martian calanders then perhaps new units of time could be substituted for the old ones.
Perhaps we could change the minutes seconds hours into multiples of eachother.  Like 10 martian hours in a day, 100 martian minutes in an hour, and 100 martian seconds in a minute.
Of course this would mean that a martian hour would be more than 2 earth hours long, but how much of an inconveniance would that really be?
As for determining dates for the solstices and equinox's and New Years events, I think the most accurate way would be to count it exactly as the event occurs as Mars moves through space along its orbit.
This could be measured a an Ls angle like in KSR's trilogy, with Ls 0 measured on the vernal equinox exactly as it happens (or as accurately as our intruments can pin it down)
So Ls 0 (new years day, or moment would probably be a better term) would occur not a 12:01 the first full day of the year, therefore requiring a leap year every few years (yet to be determined by me anyway) it would occur what ever time it is anywhere you are on the surface, day or night.  All that matters is your position in space.
That being said, I would like to bring forward the suggestion of not using timezones on Mars. 
For example, 10th hour (using the 10 hour day) would be midnight on the martian prime meridian, and the opposite side of the planet it would still be 10th hour however it would be noon.
Any comments?

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Tripp,

I viewed your Anomolies on your site and found it interesting (especially your "ship," I would indeed like to se this spot reimaged, and also interesting is that when the image is viewed at the MSSS site, the image is significantly degraded to where you pretty much know what to look for to see the ship.  I'd like to know if you or anyone else has experienced this)
Anywho, I was mulling over the possibility that there may be something to your claims.  And assuming that these things you have pointed out are indeed artificial, and currently active, I asked myself, "what could the beings that operate these things be doing?"
Knowing that the surface isn't exactly chock full of these sort of objects, their presence seems very limited.  In addition, the most compelling of your claims, the ship and the smokestack tower seem to indicated the mobile and industrious nature of these beings.
The smokestack in particular seems to be pumping out an extreme amount of material (any ideas from you on what this stuff is; incidentally, I think there is indeed a shadow discrepency, as the shaded side of the exhaust cloud is on the side that the sun is shining from)
If this material is some sort of greenhouse gas, then perhaps the beings there are not native but from elsewhere and are attempting terraforming.   Evidence is around that can support this, however flimsily, according to MOC observations, the south polar residual cap is shrinking at a measurable rate of I think a couple of meters a year, I'll have to double check this value of course.

So playing devil's advocate with myself (as I don't think that there is a currently active industrial civilization on Mars, I just need more evidence; however a new image of the "ship" may sway me greatly if the results favor the artificiality of the "ship") I have come to the conclusion that these beings are not native to Mars, or if they are, they retreated underground when surface conditions became unfavorable, and have since attempted to engineer the planet back to suitable conditions.
Have you had similar conjectures?  Either way, I'd like to hear any ideas you have that could explain what they are doing if they are indeed there...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

<However we beyond our personal reasons for wanting to go, I'm also quite sure that I, and the rest of us (at least most of us) have posterity in mind as well.>

WHOA!, my grammar went to hell for a sec there. heh heh

This originally appeared at the end of the 2nd paragraph and is better read like this:

However, I'm sure, that beyond our personal reasons, I'm quite sure that I, and the rest of us (at least most of us) have posterity in mind as well.

I usually let my grammar errors go, but this one might have had a hard time getting across what I was trying to say...otherwise, sorry for wasting space....
-Matt

Okie doke Scott,
I think I know know where you are coming from.
Any society that will be expected to function in space should have some degree of planning to it.
All I'm saying is that this planning should be very basic in respect to practices religion-wise.
Perhaps an item on a day to day schedule will have time allotted for worship, and of course differing religions will have different times.
I don't think that this society planning will go as far down into detail as your description of this Destiny Hall has.
After all, the details have been already worked out by the religions that will be brought forth anyway.  Best just to let the new details that will arise when these groups come into close contact arise on their own, after it is learned how these groups can best function together.

This lends weight to the idea of an analog settlement to test this idea.  Cram professionals of differing backgrounds and religions into close quarters and have them work closely together on Mars related projects (the same results would no doubt yeild from a similar scenario with different kinds of projects, however our purposes would be best served if we kept things relevant to our cause)
I'm sure that a period of 2 or more years would be long enough to see some real evidence of these cultures either coexisting successfully or even sort of melding together sort of like how you described your Destiny Hall.
I just don't think it is a good idea just to pick and choose elements from different cultures, stitching them together, and inventing some sort of new mysticism behind it complete with rituals.
That sort of thing will develop on its own terms, however I do agree that planning in the way a society should basically function is a good idea.  (it makes sense as some practices and rituals, like the conception and birth scenarios of your destiny hall, may offend or put at risk the well being of the whole settelment)

Your friendly neighborhood Martain...
-Matt

ps, I wrote a much better post describing the same thing above, however my AOL booted me and it was lost to wherever such things are lost to...

<They would include something like Destiny Hall because they would not want to live in a society that is merely functional.  They would design a complete culture, genuine culture, a culture that provides for their biological and spiritual needs.>

Scott, I understand this, however...
You assuming that something like a destiny hall will be developed.  This is not necessarily a bad thing.
I'm sure that if this multicultural group is asked to put together a funtioning Martian society, they would not simply combine all their religions into something new, by doing so they lose their own religion.  I think it far more likely that they will demand one or more buildings be used, at least part of the time, as a place of worship.
Try telling a christian to incorporate buddhist or Islamic elements in their way of worship, and I'm sure you won't get a pleasant response.  The same way goes for all the principle religions.

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Oh and I'm pretty shure shipping an outstandingly heavy "Great-Globe" of Mars, made out of reinforced concrete and filled with the ashes of who knows how many people, and being entirely useless beyond ritual, would never leave the Earth.
Not in the mission profile weight limits I'm afraid.

As well, how could you expect to get any respect from outside groups.
If the MS builds a analog settlement and instills within it these sorts of rituals, the rest of the world will no doubt write off the MS as some sort of strange cult of planet worshippers and give them absolutely nothing in the means of support.
Oh and I'm sure the MS would never do such a thing, they are about going to Mars, not about designing the culture that will eventually exist there. (the Civ-Culture list only discusses potentialities of such a culture, and maybe a little brainstorming on initial govt workings)  I'm sure the MS certainly knows that restricting the religious interests of its members tranlates into failure and disaster for the MS (and slapping together a religion that incorporates all, or nearly all currently practiced religions is definately NO substitute)

Your friendly neighborhood, religiously free, and resistant to suggestion and wills against my own, Martian...
-Matt

Well I'm not so sure the Vikings actually used helmets like everyone thinks they did.
Anywho, Scott, I really would not like anyone, and I mean ANYONE telling me to participate in ANY ritual. 
I am especially against predetermining a child's fate.  We don't have to fear about there being a long term commitment on Mars, or before we go.
After all, why should we be afraid that our children and their children's children, and hence all of humanity's future generations, will drop the ball?  If humanity is going to continue to thrive and grow, leaving Earth for other places to set up homesteads, expand culture, and the like is inevitable.  The only thing we are worried about, being the current generation, is accomplishing this very soon (hopefully while we'll be here to see it, this can be construed as vainity on our parts, and in some sense it is, however, we have the technology, and will rapidly learn the expertise, so we see no practical reason to postpone going there)
As for designing societies, thats always been a pipe dream.  Please site me examples of societies that have been purposefully design, culture wise, down to the level of individual and couples in matrimony.
I'm sure you wont find any, any that were particularly long-lived, and still around in a state of rapid advancement with higher living standards (by which I mean that they have at least as much freedom as one would expect while still being confined under rational laws)
I imagine it this way:

I am a child around 7 M-years of age, in the M-year 20.  The old ones, who were here since the beginning, brought with them rituals and customs that were prefabricated, and that I and my other Martian born brethren are taught to practice under close scrutiny.
Presuming I have access to the internet, and any other source that could be freely accessed to learn history. (unless history has been concealed to the young Martians in order to preserve the customs, in which case I'm sure that this particular Martian civilization will fail)
I have learned from the history of Earth, the planet humans originally came from, that ever since the advent of agriculture, people have been doing all sorts of interesting things, like the rituals I participate in, only one difference.  Not in any one of those respectable thriving societies, were their rituals born overnight by one person or group.  And to make matters worse those that were designed specifically have either self-destructed, or brought upon them such contempt and scorn from the rest of the world (not to mention their own citizens) that they were rapidly destroyed, although some did give a strong struggle. (that was not primarily because the people wanted that cause, it was because Nazi Germany had the most technologically advanced and powerful military at the time)
I, after  reading these accounts, begin to see many parallels materialize between these fanatical pre-fab nations and my own.
I after getting sick enough of it, begin to question others around me, of my particular generation or those near mine (the old original settlers would surely put a stop to  me) and I quickly realize that I am not alone in this.
As the old ones pass away and because of the general distaste of all the subsequent generations, the rituals eventually dissolve, and all the time taken to practice them was, after all, a massive waste of time.

This is all hypothetical, but why try to design societies down to the level at which you describe,
I would personally react defensively to reducing me and my wife, the person I love, to a mere means of reproduction.
I would fight it with all my ability to do so.
I will have no one, and I mean NO ONE, tell me how to concieve children, and I would react to the mere suggestion that we participate in some pre-fab ritual with much anger and contempt.
I'm sure I'm not alone on this,
So, Scott, please, don't try to devise religions or rituals, keep up the work with a basic guidline document like an effective constitution.
It is a given that an invented culture/religion will rapidly die.

By the way, you said you were only reflecting the discussions that have occured in the Civ-Culture taskforce of the MS.
This is simply wrong, please, by all means (assuming the list is still potentially active) post your first post in this topic word for word on the Civ-Culture list, and I'm sure you'll find opposition far worse than you have found here...

Your friendly neighborhood, FREE Martian...
-Matt

Copying the connections only will probably not work.
The neuron is apparently far more complex than we know so far.  Apparently memory and consioiusness may have its roots in the subatomic level.  We do have a long way to go into understanding all the aspects of quantum mechanics.
But perhaps a synthetic neuron could be developed to be exactly like a natural one, however it may be just as fragile.  Something as complex as a human neuron, may be inherently fragile.  After all there's not many materials you can duplicate a neuron with, all the way down to the way its atoms are arranged.
I think it is totally possible and perhaps inevitable (to those civilizations that live long enough anyway) to make a switch from their biological origins to something a little more robust.  If we, humans, live long enough to do it, it'll be so far away from where we are now technology wise.  Right now we just don't have the technological "handles" with which to grasp the problem.
As for losing our "humanity" without our human bodies, I think thats sortof absurd, its not my arms, legs, torso, eyes, and susceptability to disease that makes me human.  Its my mind.  And if that can be preserved great, sure many many psychological and personal changes will occur during this "unnatural" longevity, however I'm sure if an humanity leaves us, it will be our pettyness, shortsightedness and pursuit of power.  As it is those things that become unecessary traits when you live forever. (alot of those things are driven by mortality, the need to accomplish things before you die sometimes doesn't give you the time to fully plan and map out all possible consequenses...)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

It may be a week or so before I can get a little time to contact Borman.  School among other things are keeping me quite busy lately. (I was just offered yesterday to be placed in honors Geology)  But don't despair, I will get to it when things aren't so hectic...

Your busy and busily learning neighborhood Martian...
-Matt