The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

clark · 2002-10-08 14:15:28

Can we start a pool?

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-08 14:50:25

I see absolutely no reason why the Martian calender should succumb to Terran religion. I don't think scientists should come up with the calander, though. I just suspect that humans will adapt a 24:60:60 timeframe. We're used to it.

clark · 2002-10-08 16:02:11

I see absolutely no reason why the Martian calender should succumb to Terran religion.

Well how else are the fundamentalists supposed to calculate when the end of the world is going to occur? You change the martian calander and no one will no WHICH millenia is the right one to start armageddon. Sheer madness.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-08 16:19:39

Well how else are the fundamentalists supposed to calculate when the end of the world is going to occur?

They use the Mayan calendar.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-08 16:49:49

Can we start a pool?

Clark:

You are a genius. A pool is exactly what we need. However, it should have a fence around it and the gate in the fence should have a child-proof latch. Otherwise, Cindy might fall in and get as mad as a wet hen. And then she might even become hostile!

Scott

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-09 00:08:19

Nirgal;

I just came up with a way that is least obtrusive to those of us who do not wish to participate in such things.

You did the opposite. You came up with the way MOST obtrusive to everyone else. Seriously, people stopping work at seemingly random times? Not very practical, not to mention not very orthodox, since, as I said, what matters is the local days, not the time it starts on Earth, which isn't even one time in the first place. By the time the whole planet is in it, parts start being out of it against. So what you've done is created a system which causes maximum disruption for everyone, while still not letting anyone participate the way their religion requires.

On the other hand, if you simply carry over the system of weeks to Mars, the disruption is minimized. The settlers will probably continue the American tradition of taking off Saturdays and Sundays whenever they can, even if they're irreligious, which means that if we carry the same cycle over, religious people will take the same days off everyone else does.

It leaves recognition of religious holidays up to the individual, without having to design an elaborate calendar to accomodate religion.

But no elaborate calender is needed. In fact, the elaborate calender Byron proposed was intended to do the opposite.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-09 02:59:13

I hold a new calander should be designed based on accurate measurements of Mars's position in its orbit with new lengths of time for familiar units (hours minutes, so forth), and angle measurements for moments like New Year and Solstices.

Matt:

The Goddard Institute for Space Studies has a very nice "Time on Mars" applet (click here).

Scott

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-09 06:58:50

An interesting link. Thanks Scott!

I noticed from the applet that it's very near the northern hemisphere summer solstice.
Weren't we waiting for more information about the distribution of water ice in the top metre or so of regolith in the northern hemisphere? And weren't we supposed to get it as soon as the CO2 'hood' lifted at the end of winter?
We're approaching the height of summer now, so where are the pictures of shallow sub-surface water ice we were promised?

Call me impetuous if you like, but I'm getting impatient!!
Anybody else getting antsy too?!
???

Byron · 2002-10-09 07:27:31

An interesting link. Thanks Scott!
I noticed from the applet that it's very near the northern hemisphere summer solstice.
Weren't we waiting for more information about the distribution of water ice in the top metre or so of regolith in the northern hemisphere? And weren't we supposed to get it as soon as the CO2 'hood' lifted at the end of winter?
We're approaching the height of summer now, so where are the pictures of shallow sub-surface water ice we were promised?
Call me impetuous if you like, but I'm getting impatient!!
Anybody else getting antsy too?!
???

I've been wondering about the same thing... :0

Personally, I think there's so much water frozen in the regolith of the northern hemisphere that it's overwelming the sensors or whatever... (the "that can't be right" syndrome)... But we should have heard at least something by now, don't you think..??

B

Byron · 2002-10-09 08:41:00

It leaves recognition of religious holidays up to the individual, without having to design an elaborate calendar to accomodate religion.
But no elaborate calender is needed. In fact, the elaborate calender Byron proposed was intended to do the opposite.

I deleted this post by accident...thought I had a double...lol. So I'm putting it back the best I can...

Didn't know my calender was that elaborate... I just thought it would be a neat tradition to have the "Year End Days" at the end of the last month, something that would be uniquely Martian...

The thing that attracts me so much to Mars is the opportunity for humanity to start afresh with new traditions, ideas, etc. I have a hard time with people that insist that certain things must never change, even when it's reasonable and called for. The # 1 factor that has held humanity back so much in the last millenium was RELIGION, and its attempts to stifle scientific discovery, innovative thinking, beginning new traditions, etc...

Is it really so bad that I have a desire for a 'secular' Mars? A place free from religious oppression and adherence to Earth-bound traditions that actually may be detrimental to a new Martian society? Perhaps we should just sit back and let people repeat the same mistakes on Mars as they have on Earth for millenia...when it somes to the topic of religion, it's pretty much a hopeless battle when it comes to reason... ???

B

Palomar · 2002-10-09 08:59:34

Can we start a pool?
Clark:
You are a genius. A pool is exactly what we need. However, it should have a fence around it and the gate in the fence should have a child-proof latch. Otherwise, Cindy might fall in and get as mad as a wet hen. And then she might even become hostile!
Scott

*Sorry to ruin your fantasy, Scott, but I happen to be an accomplished swimmer. And as for child-proof latches, like most adults I can't get them to work..but kids can. So much for "child-proof." Go figure.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-10-09 09:05:27

Is it really so bad that I have a desire for a 'secular' Mars?

What is your reaction or view regarding those who say, "is it really so bad that I have a desire for a 'religious' Mars?" A secular state that excludes religious expression is equally aboherent as a religious state that excludes secular expression. Your 'desire' is not bad, but you should think through the ramifications of your belief from others perspectives.

You also seem to be generalizing the whole issue of traditions. In your previous post you sight that what attracts you to Mars is the opportunity to create new traditions, yet you also add that Mars is an opportunity to get away from current "opressive" and earth based tradiaitons. You are in effect lumping all the good traditions of earth with the bad- you are being unfair to the many religous traditions that are noble and good as well by making this careless blanket statement.

an example, do you have a problem with religious traditions that foster charity? Community service? Helping your fellow man? Love? Do you have a problem with the traditions of marriage\

Maybe religion in and of itself isn't for you- but the majority of humans on this planet have found one religion or another to provide something worthwhile. Now, I am not disagreeing with you that many religions have traditions that are abhorent by our progressive standards of today, but that is not all religions, that is not all traditions. Compare a christian fundamentalist, and how they practice their faith and someone who believes in Wica- two divergent beliefs, practiced differently0 I am sure we can both find traditions in both faiths that are unacceptable by our personal standards- and we can both find worthwhile traditions as well.

Byron, stating that you want a place free from religious oppression by instuting a secular state that will repress all religions, equally. So instead of religious oppression, we end up with oppression of religion. Religion, what people "believe", is valid, it should not be ignored- which is what you seem to want on Mars.

The # 1 factor that has held humanity back so much in the last millenium was RELIGION, and its attempts to stifle scientific discovery, innovative thinking, beginning new traditions, etc...

Religion did this, or did others use religion as a means to oppress others? The powers that be will use whatever 'tool' is available to achieve their ends- be it class warfare, ideology, or religion- it's all about creating the illusion of "us" vs. "them". Why? Becuase people by and large don't really want to hurt other people- they need to be given a reason to do so, religion has unfortunetly been used by unscrupoulous people. You seem to understand history Byron, don't you see this?

Religion is inert, like a gun- it takes humans to make it "do" or "be" something.

And the number 1 factor for much of the blessings we have in our world today is the result of religion.

Palomar · 2002-10-09 09:11:24

It leaves recognition of religious holidays up to the individual, without having to design an elaborate calendar to accomodate religion.
But no elaborate calender is needed. In fact, the elaborate calender Byron proposed was intended to do the opposite.
I deleted this post by accident...thought I had a double...lol. So I'm putting it back the best I can...
Didn't know my calender was that elaborate... I just thought it would be a neat tradition to have the "Year End Days" at the end of the last month, something that would be uniquely Martian...
The thing that attracts me so much to Mars is the opportunity for humanity to start afresh with new traditions, ideas, etc. I have a hard time with people that insist that certain things must never change, even when it's reasonable and called for. The # 1 factor that has held humanity back so much in the last millenium was RELIGION, and its attempts to stifle scientific discovery, innovative thinking, beginning new traditions, etc...
Is it really so bad that I have a desire for a 'secular' Mars? A place free from religious oppression and adherence to Earth-bound traditions that actually may be detrimental to a new Martian society? Perhaps we should just sit back and let people repeat the same mistakes on Mars as they have on Earth for millenia...when it somes to the topic of religion, it's pretty much a hopeless battle when it comes to reason... <!--emo&???
B

*Byron: I agree with what you say. I would also like a secular Mars; totally secular.

However, religious people will go to Mars, and they will take at least some of their traditions with them.

This is why I suggested the scientists draw up the "standard" calendar, which the settlers will recognize in order to schedule work, sleep, etc.,...and let the religious people figure out - for themselves - how their religious calendar can be made to "fit" to the "standard" one.

The onus of any religious calendar is on the religious people; the scientists shouldn't have to bother with it. People who want to take their religion to Mars [I'd prefer people NOT bring it to Mars, but it's not my decision] will have to do any adjustments and accommodations on their own accord...while hopefully keeping in mind that survival and life-based operations of the settlement come first, and any time set aside to, say, "fast and pray" is not to interfere with the performance of their duties...unless they are able to arrange for another equally-qualified person to fill in for them on a certain day, and so long as this has the approval of overseers in the settlement.

I'm just being practical. I'd like to see a religious-free Mars; I'd LOVE to see a religious-free Mars. But it isn't, IMO, practical to think that will be...unfortunately.

--Cindy

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-09 09:55:17

AJ
Actually my suggestion isn't all that obtrusive when you look at the whole picture...
Think about it, These seemingly random times will occur at regular intervals, It just won't occur in syncronization with Martian days.
And when you think about it some more, no doubt most people who will live on Mars will be religious, as most people here on Earth are. So everyone will decide to take the day off at the same "seemingly random" times. (which actually won't seem random at all to the people who practice these religions and will no doubt keep track of such things using very simple timepieces.)
As for the question of orthodoxy, I think it would more in keeping with a faith to keep the timeframes the same as they are on Earth, the way they have been practiced for millenia.
Of course it would be left up to best judgement whether or not to go to work on a sabbath or otherwise important date. (just as it is here by the way)
We already have an arbitrary week here on Earth that religious holidays and sabbaths are atuned to, why not just keep using it on Mars and keep a martian calander functional and accurate according to the actual time of the year (by this I mean position of Mars in its orbit)
Explain to me why this is more obtrusive than sabbaths and holidays already are here on Earth.
I mean, it is completely arbitrary that people take off a couple of days every five or six days.

I have no realistic desires for Mars politically, economically, and culturally. I realize it would be futile to try to eliminate religion, just as it would be to eliminate communism, capitalism, socialism, or any other "ism" from the part of humanity that lives there.
People will be people, they will bring and use what they want on Mars out of Necesity and preference. It will be up to the people who go there to either work out a way that does not involve the unchallenged desicions of a leader or to be able to resist whenever oppression occurs.

Anyway, me being non-religious has no doubt influenced this, but it seemed to me the most logical thing to do (which may have been a bad way to go around it seeing how religion hardly ever bases itself upon logic, heh heh)
There is a great flaw in this that I would like to point out though, it keeps religion tied with Earth, and kindof prohibits any kind of new Mars based (insert faith here) to evolve.
Although it leaves the doors wide open for new faiths that are wholly Mars based to arise (however weird they might be)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-09 09:57:36

By the way, Clark...

I really truely dig your quote
Let it be a reminder to us all...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nida · 2002-10-09 10:15:29

Calling a woman a wet hen is a SEXIST comment if I ever heard one, full of VENOM.

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-09 10:21:28

AJ,
I forgot to mention this in my post...

As for the importance of local sunrise/set, I suppose a religious Martian can either keep track of sunrise/set times from his hometown on earth, and either recognize it at those moments, or adjust them a couple of hours in either direction to match up with Martian local sunrise/set. This would be the most complicated part of this idea of mine, however its still not that hard, here's an example.

Say its tuesday night at your home in central Chryse, you know that back in you hometown (or the terran international date line or any other arbitrary line of longitude) sunrise on sunday will occur at noon wednsday at Chryse.
One could choose to recognize The whole day wednsday as the sabbath, or only when sunrise occurs on Earth...
Not too hard, and it leaves religious practice up to the religious without it saturating a calander that is meant for keeping time, not keeping track of religious days.
(I'm sure the season will be of upmost importance to the people of mars)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-09 23:31:34

About the only thing more dangerous to argue over than politics, is religion. And, in the end, whatever you say will probably have no effect anyway because people form their own opinions in accordance with their own needs.

I subscribe to no organised religion myself. But, for reasons I cannot logically justify, I believe in 'God' - for want of a better word. Perhaps it helps me make sense of an otherwise big, lonely, and impersonal universe. So I guess its a contrivance of my own mind to 'help me through the night' and to explain how it is that people I've loved, who have died, can just disappear. I find it very difficult to comprehend that a vibrant personality, full of hopes and joys, fears and aspirations, someone intelligent, reflective, and affectionate, can just cease to exist.
So I factor in the notion that somehow, after death, we go on. How, or in what form, I don't really have a clue. But it helps me to think this way. I suppose it's a bit like Einstein's cosmological constant, which he conjured out of nothing and incorporated into his equations to explain the 'static universe', thought to exist at the time. 'God' is my cosmological constant - enabling me to balance my equations!!

But organised religions frustrate me very much. They're nearly all based on the here and now, though they purport to be 'forever'. Everything happened just lately: Yahweh appeared about 3000 years ago, Christ about 2000, and Muhammad about 1500 years ago.
My picture of the universe is big .... VERY big! And my conception of time is mind-numbing. I'm very aware that everything in human history has taken place on a speck of dust, on the outskirts of a run-of-the-mill galaxy, in a universe so vast we can't even find its boundaries. I'm very aware that everything in recorded human history has taken place in the last 0.00015% of Earth's modest span of existence (4.5 billion years.)

To me, it seems incomprehensible that God would specify a special day to be kept holy. What length of day? A day from Earth's past when our planet rotated once every 8 hours instead of every 24? Or one from the future, perhaps, when a day will be 28 hours long? Of what significance is a 'day' to an omnipotent eternal being, presiding as She does over days of different lengths on Earth and on different planets in different galaxies all over the cosmos?
Why should the Son of God ignore the Sumerian, Minoan, Babylonian, and Egyptian civilisations for nearly 5000 years, allowing them to live as 'heathen idol-worshippers', before finally making an appearance during the Roman period? Out of at least 35,000 years of anatomically-modern human existence, what was so special about that moment, 2000 years ago? As soon as Cro-Magnon man appeared, why didn't Jesus?
And if dates and days are so important that AJ wants to lynch Byron over them, why is Christmas day on December 25th and why is this the year 2002? There is apparently very strong evidence that Jesus was born in March of 4 BC!!

I'm told that Muslims set their spiritual calendars by the phases of the Moon. Are their clerics aware that the orbit of the Moon is enlarging and that the lunar month is lengthening? Is there any allowance or instruction for this eventuality in the Koran? I'd be very surprised if there were.
There is a meteorite in a building in Mecca which is venerated by Muslims. Why this particular meteorite out of the trillions of tons of meteorites which have fallen on our planet over the eons? Do the clerics understand that there is a finite chance the next 'stone from heaven' might demolish Mecca altogether, or maybe take out half the Arabian Peninsula? And what mention is there of this in the Koran?

And looking briefly at Judaism in the context of calendars, just so our Jewish colleagues won't feel left out of my reckless diatribe(! ), how do they know what day to celebrate the Passover? I'd be amazed if anyone really has a clue what date the Angel of Death chose to slaughter the first-born sons of Egypt.
And if Christianity depends on the predictions of the prophets of the Old Testament that a Messiah would come, how is it Jews have their Sabbath on Saturday and Christians on Sunday? The very word, Sabbath, is hebrew, isn't it? If Christians have inherited it directly from Judaism, why doesn't it bother them that somehow their holy day has 'slipped' back by a whole 24 hours?!

I have said all this, not to belittle the beliefs of so many of the world's people (though I admit it's hard to look at what I've said and NOT think that was my intention), but to explain my deep-seated inability to understand the conventions of three of the world's largest religions.
In the light of our enormously expanded knowledge of the universe we inhabit, the rules and regulations of these competing faiths start to look extremely parochial, at least to me.

The fact that there are various religions, with various calendars of sacred days, might actually be a good reason to deliberately ensure that any new Martian calendar is as blandly secular as possible. If it looks entirely secular, there can at least be no insinuation by one group or another of any bias against them.
And planets and their orbits are messy things. If God had wanted us to keep time so precisely, why couldn't He have made Earth's year exactly equal to, say, 360 days? Why couldn't the Moon have been persuaded to revolve about Earth exactly once every 30 days? And why not have them constant in their paths over all eternity, never slowing or changing their orbits?

Mars is a different world for which we have been left no software by God. And I think She would be disappointed in us if we didn't use our initiative and start from scratch with a secular calendar.
Let the Mullahs and the Priests and the Rabbis sit down and create a new religious observance timetable based on the orbital characteristics of our new world.
Surely, if it's that important, God will send us all another prophet with updated instructions for use on Mars.

P.S. This may be the biggest can of worms I've ever opened
on New Mars! I just hope it's received as it was
intended, as an attempt at a reasoned argument, rather
than any kind of attack.
:0

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-10 00:41:40

Byron;

Didn't know my calender was that elaborate... I just thought it would be a neat tradition to have the "Year End Days" at the end of the last month, something that would be uniquely Martian...

Yeah, it would be neat. But not worth it, unless you consider making things difficult for people you dislike a benefit. And you do, which demonstrates your illiberality.

I have a hard time with people that insist that certain things must never change, even when it's reasonable and called for.

But in this case it's unreasonable and certainly not called for.

The # 1 factor that has held humanity back so much in the last millenium was RELIGION, and its attempts to stifle scientific discovery, innovative thinking, beginning new traditions, etc...

The last millenium, eh? That could mean either 1000 to 2000, or 1002 to 2002, but it doesn't really matter. In the year 1000 (and 1002), Europe had yet to recover from the barbarian invasions. The barbarians weren't particularly religious; they tended to adopt whichever monotheist religion was most convenient. The classical "lights of learning" were kept up in a few places; monastaries in the West, the Orthodox Byzantine Empire (although I don't think the final split had hapened yet), and in the Muslim territories. All religious.

But then they "held humanity back so much", right? A thousand years ago, most people lived in mud huts. Most people were illiterate (literacy having declined after the fall of the Christian Roman Empire). Heck, the Norman Conquest wasn't until 1066; we're talking about Anglo-Saxon times. Since then, we've had the printing press, the mideaval improvements in clockworks and toymaking (VERY significant, BTW; this is where modern mechanics comes from), the advance from Viking long boats or trading ships meant for use in the Mediteranian to steamships to submarines, the industrial revolution, modern medicine, computers, primitive spacefaring, and last but not least, the American type of republican government, which would not exist were it not for Protestantism. More advancement than any other millenium in human history.

But even without a foundation, your comment makes it clear that I was right: you motive is, purely and simply, to exclude religious people.

Is it really so bad that I have a desire for a 'secular' Mars?

YES!

A place free from religious oppression

You call for a place free from religious oppression, after calling for the exclusion of people having religious views you dislike. ???

Perhaps you have an unusual definition of oppression, as in the following:

"You don't like the Goths?"

"No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"

"Persecution?"

"Religious persecution. We won't stand for it forever."

"I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."

"That's just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"
- Martin Padway and stranger in bar in "Lest Darkness Fall"

Perhaps we should just sit back and let people repeat the same mistakes on Mars as they have on Earth for millenia...

Some people might consider religious bigotry a "mistake", you know.

clark;

Amazing. You managed to make sense.

nirgal;

Sure, the intervals would be regular, in a sense, but would be irregular in the important sense. They have no real relation to Martian days. They're unpredictable unless you follow the Terran calender closely. And even if they're easily tracked by everyone, you'll have people observing them when others are working, often taking off in the middle of the day. Much more intrusive than people observing sabbaths when everyone else is off work anyway.

As for the question of orthodoxy, I think it would more in keeping with a faith to keep the timeframes the same as they are on Earth, the way they have been practiced for millenia.

With all due respect, it doesn't matter what you think.

I know that in the case of observant Jews, the Sabbath starts every seven sunsets and continues until the next sunset. That's the way they've always done it, and that's the way they'll do it on Mars. The seventh sunset; not the moment it starts on some other planet, and certainly not some sunset other than the seventh that's a few hours off from the time it starts on some other planet.

While I'm at it, I don't like the idea of having New Year's happen all at once when the planet passes a certain point. It fits better with human psychology to have it connected to the day. We can always adjust for the slight mismatch with leap days.

Shaun;

Why should the Son of God ignore the Sumerian, Minoan, Babylonian, and Egyptian civilisations for nearly 5000 years, allowing them to live as 'heathen idol-worshippers', before finally making an appearance during the Roman period? Out of at least 35,000 years of anatomically-modern human existence, what was so special about that moment, 2000 years ago? As soon as Cro-Magnon man appeared, why didn't Jesus?

But that only works with Arminianism. Us Calvinists know the answer. (We also know the reply the answer always gets -- "That's so cruel.")

And if dates and days are so important that AJ wants to lynch Byron over them, why is Christmas day on December 25th and why is this the year 2002? There is apparently very strong evidence that Jesus was born in March of 4 BC!!

But that's less significant than the weekly cycle, in terms of accomodation. Terran holidays, correctly placed or not, will simply have to follow a Terran calender. But the Sabbaths have to be local. My point is simply that carrying over the cycle already in use makes it easier for everyone, without doing anything like creating a "religious calender". It accomodates some people without costing anyone else anything.

(BTW, we Americans should really be celebrating July 2 instead of July 4. July 2 was the vote for independence, and the July 4 vote was merely to announce the decision already made using Jefferson's declaration. But his was the only one on the table, so the vote was pro forma.)

And looking briefly at Judaism in the context of calendars, just so our Jewish colleagues won't feel left out of my reckless diatribe(! ), how do they know what day to celebrate the Passover? I'd be amazed if anyone really has a clue what date the Angel of Death chose to slaughter the first-born sons of Egypt.

IIRC, the day is specified in the OT.

And if Christianity depends on the predictions of the prophets of the Old Testament that a Messiah would come, how is it Jews have their Sabbath on Saturday and Christians on Sunday?

Because the resurrection happened on a Sunday.

The fact that there are various religions, with various calendars of sacred days, might actually be a good reason to deliberately ensure that any new Martian calendar is as blandly secular as possible. If it looks entirely secular, there can at least be no insinuation by one group or another of any bias against them.

And let me repeat that carrying over the weekly cycle from Earth won't contradict that. In fact, if you fiddle with it, you're moving from blandly secular to aggressively secular.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-10 02:53:29

Hmm, that applet was very neat. The algorithm for calculating Martian time is a lot easier to work with when in code form.

A.J., I find it sort of ironic that you decry Byron for his desire for a ?secular Mars,? yet tell him, unconditionally, that his calendar is ?unreasonable and certainly not called for.?

Given that the sun is going to come up no matter what calendar one choses, you, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't be bothered that he wishes to use a different one.

clark · 2002-10-10 06:25:34

clark;
Amazing. You managed to make sense.

Praise from Ceaser.

Byron · 2002-10-10 07:27:05

You also seem to be generalizing the whole issue of traditions. In your previous post you sight that what attracts you to Mars is the opportunity to create new traditions, yet you also add that Mars is an opportunity to get away from current "opressive" and earth based tradiaitons. You are in effect lumping all the good traditions of earth with the bad- you are being unfair to the many religous traditions that are noble and good as well by making this careless blanket statement.
Byron, stating that you want a place free from religious oppression by instuting a secular state that will repress all religions, equally. So instead of religious oppression, we end up with oppression of religion. Religion, what people "believe", is valid, it should not be ignored- which is what you seem to want on Mars.

Clark - You're right in that I have a tendency to over-generalize...even when I don't intend to...so please accept my apologies...

Let's see if I can clarify things a bit... I'm not going to ignore the fact that there are many 'good' religion-based traditions here on Earth, and there's no reason why many of these can't be carried over to Mars. Holidays such as Christmas and Yom Kippur would surely be celebrated on Mars just as they are here on Mars...and on the same dates as on Earth. It's just that I think there will be new traditions formed on Mars...perhaps even a new religion or two (imagine that..a 'Martian' religion!<!--emo&;)

I do not advocate 'repression' of any religious traditions at all. I simply propose a "hands-off" attitude regarding religion within a Martian settlement or family of settlements. Just as the U.S. Founding Fathers made certain that this country would have separation of church and state embodied in the Constitution, I propose the same for Mars. Despite the Judeo-Christian foundation that the U.S. was built upon, the government and other public institutions are largely secular in nature. Even Christmas has become a 'secular' holiday over the past few decades in the U.S...considering the fact that it is mainly one big, long consumer-fest without which our economy would surely fail.

Mars will probably be represented by a wide range of religious beliefs, as well as a large proportion of non-believers. When it comes to things that everyone will use, such as a common calender, I would hope that these things will be decided upon in a democratic manner. 'Common' things such as these, that apply to the society as a whole...that's where we should leave religion behind in order to be fair to everyone. That's what I was referring to when I was talking about a 'secular' Mars...things of a public nature such as a common calender should be kept as secular as possible. I really don't think this is too much different than what is done here, now in the U.S.

BUT...this does not mean we should make it difficult to celebrate various traditions and holidays imported from Earth, indeed, this should be an integral part of whatever bill of human rights that is drawn up on Mars. It's just that I'm looking at this from a 'practical' standpoint when it comes to this kind of thing. For instance, Christmas on Mars will simply not be the same as on Earth...no ham or turkey for instance. No Christmas trees. Few, if any, presents to give to one another. Get the idea? Whatever traditions people do celebrate on Mars will be different than on Earth, simply because of the constraints of living on Mars. That's why I made those comments earlier about people who do consider religious traditions an important part of their lives may do better to stay home, as there simply may not be the means to carry out those traditions on Mars as here on Earth. If a religious person(s) is open-minded and willing to adapt to change, then I don't see any problems with religion on Mars...I really don't. It's really all about adaptability... something that will be essential to survival on Mars.

B

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-10 08:13:46

Well, at first, I suspect religions will be connected to Earth. I mean, we won't be reinventing Christmas. We'd be celebrating Christmas on Mars when it's Christmas on Earth (we'd still be in contact with our familes, and so on). But later on down the line, this would become difficult. It would seem to occur on random dates, twice a Martian year. So what we'd do, is we'd invent the true day when Christmas comes.

I think the most logical way to do this, is to simply celebrate holidays on whatever day Mars passes through the same point Earth passes through in orbit around the sun on those holidays. Let me try to make this clearer: If Earth was at degree 355 during Christmass, Mars' Christmas would be at degree 355, and it would last for two days instead of one.

Okay, I'm not very coherent this fine morning.

Byron · 2002-10-10 08:28:53

Yeah, it would be neat. But not worth it, unless you consider making things difficult for people you dislike a benefit. And you do, which demonstrates your illiberality.
I have a hard time with people that insist that certain things must never change, even when it's reasonable and called for.
But in this case it's unreasonable and certainly not called for.
......
And let me repeat that carrying over the weekly cycle from Earth won't contradict that. In fact, if you fiddle with it, you're moving from blandly secular to aggressively secular.

A.J.,

It be nice if you would consider my calender idea just that...an idea. A bad idea...perhaps so, but simply an idea nonetheless. Would it make you feel better that I now think that perhaps my "Year End Days" may be unworkable as KSR's 'timeslip'? If the majority of people who settle on Mars agree that carrying over the current system of weeks is best for the Martian community, than that's what will happen. I have absolutely zero problem with that. My idea of the Year End Days is just a whimsical fantasy...one I realize probably has an almost zero chance of actually coming into existence.

I'm sorry if I offended you with my "aggressively secular" views...I'm afraid that's just me. I will readily admit that some of my posts here on this board have been colored by my personal experience with religion, which hasn't been the most positive experience in the world.. ??? But I do realize that we are one human family, and that each of us must have respect for other's beliefs and traditions, even if they run counter to our own. That's why I like to come to this board and hear other people's views on this kind of thing...I may not always agree, but it does give me something to think about...

As far as my calender is concerned, I could really care less about it...especially considering I hastily drew it up on a day I had little else better to do. Naturally, I didn't put much thought into it when it came to religion, and I was honestly attempting to come up with the 'easiest' calender possible. But when I put it up on New Mars...well, we know what happened after that..lol.

If this little mea culpa doesn't make you feel better, I don't know what will..lol...

B

Bill White · 2002-10-10 08:42:18

Don't seconds need to stay seconds to allow computers to stay in sync?

The idea of tuning clocks to stretch a second so that a Martian day contains 86,400 seconds (60x60x24) is way cool, but could be quite dangerous. JPL, after all, lost a Mars probe due to English/metric confusion. Different measures for seconds will mean different CPU clock speeds which could mean big trouble IMHO.

I have thought about this calendar/clock stuff for Mars and my head hurts. I have no suggestions at all.

By the way, any predictions on whether settlers will use English measure or metric?

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2002-10-08 14:15:28

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#52 2002-10-08 14:50:25

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#53 2002-10-08 16:02:11

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#54 2002-10-08 16:19:39

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#55 2002-10-08 16:49:49

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#56 2002-10-09 00:08:19

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#57 2002-10-09 02:59:13

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#58 2002-10-09 06:58:50

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#59 2002-10-09 07:27:31

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#60 2002-10-09 08:41:00

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#61 2002-10-09 08:59:34

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#62 2002-10-09 09:05:27

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#63 2002-10-09 09:11:24

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#64 2002-10-09 09:55:17

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#65 2002-10-09 09:57:36

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#66 2002-10-09 10:15:29

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#67 2002-10-09 10:21:28

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#68 2002-10-09 23:31:34

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#69 2002-10-10 00:41:40

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#70 2002-10-10 02:53:29

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#71 2002-10-10 06:25:34

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#72 2002-10-10 07:27:05

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#73 2002-10-10 08:13:46

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#74 2002-10-10 08:28:53

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#75 2002-10-10 08:42:18

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

Board footer