Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

Tripp · 2002-09-22 12:15:28

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-23 01:47:33

Hi Tripp!
So now it's emerging into the light of respectability that water can, and probably does, exist as a liquid in certain places and at certain times on Mars.
I was interested to read in the paper submitted by that group which included Chris McKay, that NaCl brine can remain liquid at -20 deg.C and pressures down to 1 millibar!

Some of you may remember we had a brief discussion of this in "Lakes on Mars today?!" some time back. No firm conclusions were arrived at.

Some of the pictures I've seen are not convincing - they lack clarity and the so-called waves could as easily be sand dunes, in my opinion. Others are so very much like pools of some kind of transparent liquid that it's difficult to interpret them as anything else!

Opinions anyone?
:0

Tripp · 2002-09-23 09:50:12

Hey Shaun..

Thanks for your response. Much of the fluid "water' in evidence may be due to the high salts evident on Mars surface... indicated by NASA to be some 10 - 12 percent. Additionally, a growing cadre of scientists, myself included believe that these clearly evident, even dictated, fluid bodies are likely clathrate. given the behaviors and even the evident wavelengths of the fliuid body indicating a substance of higher viscosity and laminar cohesion.

I am not sure to what images you're referring in your post, my own offered images or from the other topic you reference... However I will say that those images i offer up show fine salient evidences wholly removing these aeolian dune forms and indicating these to be fluid mechanics. Many of these "salient evidences" I outline in my previously cited "Mars: Water World" link above.

Given your broaching the subject of mis-identifying water and water mechanic features as other features, I think you may enjoy this topic, initially begun to discuss "Dustdevils" but then expanded to incluide discussion of evident and compelling water bodies in Schiaparelli Basin.

"Martian Dust Devils"

Nirgal82 · 2002-09-30 22:52:57

Uhh, Tripp,
I hate to burst your bubble, but I went to your "Mars Un-earthed" y'know the one that shows the claims of water features on Mars.
Did you create this page, because if you did you are very mistaken in identifying the object in the the image, AB108503.
It is not a cumulous cloud pouring rain. It isn't even a cloud. That is a wide angle image from the MOC not a narrow angle view. The object identified as a cumulous cloud caught in the act of precipitation is actually a poorly resolved view of Hebes Chasma to the north of the Valles Marineris canyon complex.
What is posted on that site is a cropped image, when you look at the whole image on the MSSS site, you can see Valles Marineris and other features that unambigously give away the true identity of this "rain cloud"

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Wayland321 · 2003-03-26 18:30:48

Does Mars have enough mass to exert enough of a gravitational force to keep the right kind of atmospheric gases at the right atmospheric pressure that would allow water to ever flow in a liquid state on the surface? Gravity and mass are directly proportional. If the atmospheric gases are not the right kind then liquid water could not exist on the surface long enough to cause the errosion formed features seen. If the atmospheric pressure is too low then liquid water could not exist at all. Heavy gas molecules could form an atmosphere on a low gravity planet, but would the chemical interaction between the atmosphere and any water on the surface allow the water to exist long enough to cause the type of errosion seen on the surface of Mars?

People look at surface features on Mars and see that they resemble water formed surface features on Earth and thus claim that water had to have flowed on the surface of Mars sometime in its past to form those features there, too. There is no place on the surface of Earth that has not be affected by water, so there is no way to know if those kind of surface features could be formed by anything else. How do we know that billions of years of fine sand blowing over a surface could not form those features on Mars? Couldn't the canyons seen on the Mars be formed by the planet expanding and contracting due to some other force?

It would be fantastic if surface water could exist on Mars. I think that we should have had a manned mission to Mars a long time ago. It would be nice, though, if someone could address those questions I have about Mars water.

TJohn · 2003-03-27 08:14:56

With all these reports coming about liquid water on Mars, we definitely need to put the Mars exploration into overdrive. We are always looking for life elsewhere in the universe and it could be right next door! Enough with the analysis and let's go see for ourselves! Not with robots but humans!!!!

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-27 19:12:31

Hello Wayland321.
First of all, welcome to New Mars! The more members the merrier!!

Mars has enough gravity to hold onto a very substantial atmosphere for a very long time. By 'a very long time', I mean long by human standards. For example, if we were successful in terraforming Mars to the extent that we created an atmosphere of 500 millibars of CO2, it would take hundreds of thousands (or maybe millions) of years before a noticeable drop in pressure occurred due to leakage into space.
Our 500 millibar CO2 atmosphere would probably have super-greenhouse-gases mixed into it and Mars would be much warmer than it is today. If so, we could have large bodies of water - vast lakes or even oceans - in the low lying regions. This could be problematic with a CO2 atmosphere due to a weathering process whereby the CO2 dissolves in the water and becomes incorporated, permanently, into carbonate rocks.
I have no figures to back this up, and maybe microorganisms are necessary to really move this reaction along (using dissolved CO2 in the water for shell formation), but I suspect weathering at the bottom of the atmosphere may remove CO2 quicker than leakage from the top!
Ultimately, an atmosphere of nitrogen and oxygen would be our goal, though creating that may be considerably more difficult than the CO2 version. (This may not be the case but, with the present state of knowledge, it seems likely.) We would have less trouble with a nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere dissolving into our new seas, but would trade that problem for the more difficult task of keeping Mars warm without all that CO2!! There's always a catch! :;):

The features of the Martian topography which look like they were produced by water, probably were produced by water! Geologists who understand the different kinds of erosion - wind, water, ice-shattering etc. - have concluded that wind, sand, and ice are unlikely in the extreme to have been responsible for all the features we see. Most of the valleys, channels, and obvious sedimentary features could realistically only result from water erosion.
Logically, if water erosion over periods of AT LEAST tens of thousands of years has occurred, then atmospheric conditions must necessarily have been clement enough to allow this. And apparently there is evidence to suggest that such clement episodes may have occurred periodically throughout most of Martian history, possibly even into geologically recent times.

Waddya think, Wayland321?! Are you convinced?

dickbill · 2003-03-28 11:00:13

yes Shaun, water has probably been there. However, the early "faint sun" problem still remains, which make me think that something catastrophic might have happen to Mars.

I havn't heard anything about the nothern/southern dichotomy for a long time. I don't think the problem is resolved, is it ? so if that dichotomy, hypothesis here, has been produced by a giant impact a la "Mission to Mars", we could imagine that the original atmosphere has been whipped off with a part of the martian crust.
what could be that original atmosphere I have no idea, maybe a mixture of strong greenhouse gas, such as NH3 or CH4, similar to the distant planets and which, given the early martian internal heat, could have been enough to support liquid water on the surface.

Of course, we will only know the answer when we penetrate into the secret martian base, the "face".

dicktice · 2003-03-29 12:27:36

dickbill: The latest issue-but-one of Nature magazine, suggests that Mars is just "soaking" in subsurface water-ice. Regarding your mention of the "face"--is that something anyone should respond to, or just a private joke?

soph · 2003-03-29 13:36:54

I think he's talking about the conspiracy theory about a face being on Mars proving the existence of alien intelligent life there.

Don't worry, it's a joke. The "images" of the "face" are really doctored up versions of real images.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-29 16:09:18

Heh... ?enhanced? / ?doctored up? same thing.

dickbill · 2003-03-29 22:42:02

dickbill: The latest issue-but-one of Nature magazine, suggests that Mars is just "soaking" in subsurface water-ice. Regarding your mention of the "face"--is that something anyone should respond to, or just a private joke?

I havn't read the article yet, to be clear, I wasn't refering to the present time, but to the fact that liquid water was present in the past of Mars. Liquid water is constently refered to explain the martian features. That liquid water was present during intermitent warming caused by meteorit impact could be possible, otherwise, liquid water present for long period of time in the past suggest that the martian atmosphere was much thicker and contained greenhouses gases in the past, this to overcome the fact that the sun was also fainter.
so where is that atmosphere gone ?
The dichotomy lowland/highland of MArs, with the Tharsis bulge, could be the result of a giant meteoritic impact which could have swept off this original martian atmosphere. But I don't know if this theory of impact has been discarded or not.

I mentioned the "face" because I am aware of the very exotic theory that explains the dichotomy in puting mars in orbit aorund a giant X planet. Tidaly locked by a synchronous rotation, the dichotomy is nothing more than a tidal effect. Later on, Mars has been released from its orbit by a cataclysmic event, separated from planet X which has disapeared along with, hmmm, the martian civilization destroyed by that cataclysm, and "the face" is a left over from this old civization. Who is the author of this theory, is he posting in this forum sometimes ?

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#1 2002-09-22 12:15:28

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#2 2002-09-23 01:47:33

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#3 2002-09-23 09:50:12

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#4 2002-09-30 22:52:57

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#5 2003-03-26 18:30:48

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#6 2003-03-27 08:14:56

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#7 2003-03-27 19:12:31

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#8 2003-03-28 11:00:13

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#9 2003-03-29 12:27:36

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#10 2003-03-29 13:36:54

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#11 2003-03-29 16:09:18

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

#12 2003-03-29 22:42:02

Re: Water On Mars: Real & Reasonable - Analysis of Image Detail and Phys Data

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