New Mars Forums

Say, that was pretty good...     Didn't know you were a poet, clark..

This sonnet you've just penned makes it obvious that if and when people do go to Mars to begin a new life, it's going to get terraformed, one way or another...
"A thousand colors for red,
But only one lonely name for a shade of blue."  Sure says a lot, doesn't it?

B

Who came up with the New Mars logo, anyhow?  I've loved it since the first time I visited this board...you have the three 'colors of Mars'...and the proportional sizes of the earth (blue cresent) and Mars (red cresent) is the coolest thing of all in that logo. I've never had any occassion to make the connection of this logo with the Islamic flag until duckbill happened to mention it...

As for the 'official' flag of Mars...I vote with the existing red, green, blue tri-color...it's clean, simple, noncontroversial...what more can you ask of a flag?  Good ideas are sometimes best left alone.   

B

On first thought, I'd chose No.1, as that would an excellent way to learn about the largest planet in the Solar System...and it would have the highest chance of successfully completing its mission. 

But No. 3 certainly would be a close second, and in light of possible threats to Earth, I might have to agree with Shaun...    Of course, in a perfect world, we'd launch all three, and get started on No. 4 right away, as well as No. 5, No. 6, ad infintum....

B

Well, you sure know how to build 'em in Australia!     If only if houses in America were as sturdy as you've described..espescially here in hurricane-prone Florida!

I think despite the vicious weather we get here in America, and believe me, we get it...people have a very lackadaisical attitude when it comes to what Mother Nature can do to us.  Granted, there's not much one can do to protect homes and  buildings against the sheer fury of tornadoes, but slack building codes in recent decades has left enormous streches of coastline vulurnable to hurricane strikes, as Andrew so aptly demonstrated back in 1992.  That compact, Cat 5 storm (155 mph winds) laid waste to tens of thousands of homes, which were literally smashed into splinters, although a number of older homes surivived with little structural damage. 

The whole thing turned out to be a huge scandal, about local agencies failing to implement a reasonable building code, and unscrupulous builders failing to heed even those inadequate standards...I mean, the houses might as well have been constructed out of cardboard..!

I live in a modest house built in the late 1960's...and while it's not a fortress by any means, I find it much better than the typical 2-story homes built in the go-go '80s, with high-gable end walls that catch the wind like a big sail, flimsy garage doors, and roof trusses can can barely withstand winds of 100 mph, let alone 150 mph.  The house behind mine, which was built in 1955 is the closest to what Shaun has described in cyclone-resistant construction, as it was built during a period of frequent hurricane activity in Florida.  It is a low-slung, concrete-block house with small windows set behind thick walls, a super-heavy roof that slopes in every direction so the wind doesn't catch it, etc.  I figure my house could take winds up to about 130 mph before it falls apart, that one could take 160, easy..lol.

The new, post-Andrew building codes here in Florida are much more stringent than they used to be, but I don't feel they go far enough to protect against the occassional monster storm...if only the local government authorities would travel to Queensland and learn from the folks who actually know how to build a sturdy house...

As far as diversity of architecture goes here in Florida..I find it even more appalling than most areas of the country...it's montonous city around here, with look-alike cookie-cutter houses sprawling endlessly across the landscape, with hardly even any trees around to shade them..at least I have the privilege of living in an older neighborhood where there is a decent amount of vegetation and trees around...and as for the risk of trees falling onto the house in high winds, well, that's what insurance is for, right...?  (LOL...just being a typical American here...)

B

The reason for the urgency for the Pluto mission is due to Pluto's eccentric orbit, which is currently taking it farther away from the sun (it crossed Neptune's orbit in '99 on the way back out.)

It is thought that Pluto has an atmosphere which freezes out during most of its course around the Sun, and an exploratory mission would be far more useful if it gets there before it freezes solid, hence the urgency to get it launched before the end of this decade, otherwise we'll have to wait almost 200 more years before Pluto swings back in again...lol.

But with the terrorist stuff going on, the impending war, etc..I've pretty much lost hope that a Pluto mission will ever be launched...especially if we keep having to pay for Russia's share of the ISS... ???

B

Because, as I just mentioned before, people are highly resistant to change - even if they 'know' that change is actually good for them.  It's the "security blanket" syndrome...people are comforted by what they know and are used to, irregardless of practicality or ease of use or whatever.  Maybe 50 or 100 years from now, things will be different.  That's the thing about living in a democracy...even if a group of leaders/intellectuals/whatnots know what's 'best' for the people, it's a no-go if that's what the vast majority of people do not desire.  I would also have to say that's not such a bad thing, either...

But if we're talking about "starting over" somewhere else, like *Mars*....then there's really no excuse not to use metric..lol.

B

I will have to agree with you there, clark...nothing is worse than having the government forcing what the majority does not want down their throats...

Using whatever measurement system is and should be a matter of personal choice...just like whatever language you prefer to speak.  Like, for example, here in south Florida, a sizeable proportion of the population speaks almost exclusively in Spanish.  English may be the 'common' language of the US, but if people want to speak Spanish, and if they can get by within their community doing so, who's to say they can't? 

Using the metric system is a matter of personal preference, as well as a practical one...it's just plain easier to work with metric than imperial measurements.  Sure I know what a gallon is...but I, along with most other Americans, know how much a two-liter bottle holds, as that happens to be a common standard in American supermarkets.  A very good example of the practicality of metric trumping the old English system is the U.S. military, which uses metric for all their operations.  They use it because, once the recruits get over getting used to using metric, it really is easier and quicker to use...an important consideration in military operations.  Many private corporations use metric for their internal operations in order to mesh with their foreign counterparts...it's the cost of conversion that's high, as opposed to the actual 'cost' of using imperial units.

As far as the road signs go, I never heard anyone complain about the cost when the speed limit was raised from 55 to 65 and 70 mph...all they had to do was put new stickers on the existing signs, something they could easily do again at trivial cost if we ever did start using kilometers instead of miles. (not that it'll happen anytime soon!)

I don't know about the current state of the educational system today in the US, but when I was growing up, we had to learn both..does anyone here on this board in the U.S. have kids in public schools?  I'd like to know if that's what's still being taught in the schools now... 

Yes, I think a public conversion to metric would be 'nice,' but if 95% of the population doesn't want to change over, I guess I'll just have to deal...  ???  Swimming against a rip current is pretty much a futile effort, so I'll just leave it at that...good 'ol feet, inches, and Fahrenheit will be around for a while yet in the U.S. of A.... 

B

You mean I'm not alone in thinking that the US should switch over to metric ASAP??  Wow...this is news to me...

Sure the cost of converting would be high, but the cost of using an antiquated system that is totally out of sync with the rest of the world is even higher. 

I had the opportunity of spending several months in Australia and New Zealand when I was younger, and I found after about a month, I was thinking completely in metric..i.e., I 'knew' what 15 degrees C felt like, and how far a 100 meters was...and it really is an easier system to use...believe me!

To me, there is absolutely no question...metric is the way to go.  Let's get metric now and ditch the most stupid system of measurements ever invented by man...

B

After reading RobS post, I think rail guns on the Tharsis volcanos would indeed work, especially if you only need 5.5 km/s to reach escape velocity...that's a pretty low number.  Sure, drag in the first few seconds of flight would be a bit of a problem, but nothing that would be insurmountable by any means...after all, the Shuttle regularly drops though Earth's much thicker atmosphere at nearly those kinds of speeds, and it seems to do just fine with the protective heat-resistant tiles, etc. 

The question I have, if you're attempting to reach a velocity of 5.5 km/s at 150 km of altitude, how much of a "premium" velocity would you need to build in to account for the slowing effects of drag as the object soars through the atmosphere (what little there is)?  My guess it wouldn't be much..perhaps a total of 7 km/s of delta-v would be needed, if even that much...

I've also thought about the idea of excavating the rail gun tube to cut down on drag...good idea, but how do you do it?  If you leave it open at the top end, the air will still "fall in" at the top and create the same pressure as outside at the base of the rail, which presumably would be at a much lower altitude.  Maybe there would be a trap door at the top of the tube that would pop open a millisecond or so before the capsule reaches the end?  Yet another challenge for the engineering types..after all, this is what we pay 'em for...

B

clark:
What confusion would result from NOT having a standardized calander for Mars?

All kinds of confusion.  A standard calender is needed to figure out work schedules, exploratory missions, preparing for the seasonal variation in temperature (esp. in the southern hemisphere), planning any sort of common activity (of which there will be many), etc, etc. 

I do see what you're saying about the 24/7 'submarine' type of enviroment..perhaps this will be true in the early, exploratory stages of humans-on-Mars, however, I still think that the early Martian's schedules will still be tied to the length of the Martian sol.  People will need to know the local time of sunset, for instance, so they don't get caught out in the open after dark in a rover.  It will be useful to know how many sols it will be to the next solstice, perhelion, etc, to plan sunlight-based activities.  (I just don't see people living in a permanent artificial environment wholly dependent on artificial lighting a la Las Vegas...being exposed to natural sunlight will be an important psyschological component of being on Mars...especially after 6 months of traveling through space.)  Lastly, especially after people have been living on Mars for a while, I'm sure the Martians would prefer to have a common calender of their own, as part of their Martian idenity, one that would hopefully be created by consensus...although I'd have to admit that process might take a 100 years or so..

You mean like my Year End Days?  I suggest you take cover immediately... 

B

Hey Shaun,

I don't have any problems with your calender...it seems to make more sense than many other m-calenders I've seen on the web..    

The thing about setting a Martian Christmas once every m-year, however, might not go over too well with the settlers, as I'm certain they would want to celebrate it at the same time Earth does...at least that's my personal opinion. Same thing with the other religious holidays as well...as people will want to have that common connection with those on Earth.

However, I think that there will be new holidays, traditions, etc, that will be uniquely Martian, like the date of First Landing...which I think will be apart from the date of the Martian New Year (which will probably be tied to the date of one of the equinoxes).  Other days holidays they might celebrate are aphelion and perihelion, and other things such as the date of first discovery of life on Mars (assuming it ever happens).

As for the length of the second...after giving it some thought, I think the Earth second will be kept as the "standard" second to be used in computers, standardized chronometers, etc, and the m-second will be used strictly for local Martian timekeeping.  It shouldn't be too difficult to create time converting software to keep track of Earth time with that of Mars...just like having the Earth and Mars calenders running side-by-side.  As for KSR's timeslip, the idea of having 39 extra minutes each night does sound appealing...but having the Martian day divided up into unequal aparts would surely cause more confusion than people would care to deal with.  All is not lost on the sleep front, however...as the typical 8-hr sleep period will be approx 13 minutes longer than here on Earth, and that will leave 26 more minutes to get things done during the course of the day as well. 

Having the longer day will be quite beneficial, I think, even beyond the practical aspects of having more time per day.  For some reason, (I have no idea why) it's usually easier for a person to adjust to gaining time, like traveling westbound into other time zones, or changing from summer time to standard time, as opposed to traveling eastbound, as it's usually more difficult to adjust to the temporarily 'shorter' day.  It's almost as if our biological clocks are seeking a longer 'natural' day.  Good thing Mars doesn't have a 21 or 22 hour day...we could still use that as our daily cycle, I imagine, but it'd be tough to deal with.

Anyone else have any comments on this?

Clark...

I agree with you in that people will likely go by the Earth calender when it comes to observances, etc..as that's what seems to make the most sense, and it will provide that all-important connection with the homeworld...

I have to disagree with this statement, as I think the days and nights, as well as the seasons will be important 'markers' to go by on Mars.  It may not be the same as here on Earth, but the permanent settlers will likely depend on natural sunlight (domes, glass roofs, etc.) for daytime activities, and it will be important to keep the human sleep / wake cycle in sync with the Martian sol, especially since it will likely provide a psychological boost to humans (see above.)  I just don't see how people will be able to live out their lives completely cut off from the cycles of the seasons, either...the sun on Mars shifts from north to south and back to north again every year just like on Earth (except it will occur every 23 months,) and this is one of the things that will provide a yearly rhythm for people to go by...again this is one of those pyschological things that will prove more important than most people realize.

You mention there is no need to create a standardized Martian calender....I think there will be a need, even if it's something as bland and simple as having a straight sol count and the year...(sol 133, m-year 4, etc.)  If people are using the Martian sol as the basis for their 'day,' there will certainly be a need to have a 'common' marker to avoid the type of confusion like the mistake of English / metric measurements with the Polar Lander.  If the base unit of a day (sol) is agreed upon by the settlers (I really don't see why they wouldn't), then there needs to be some sort of common calender to keep track of them...something that is standardized for logistic purposes, like crop schedules, ship arrivals, etc. 

You say there is a no reason for a government to create a calender...that may be true here on Earth, as we already have calenders that we are 'happy' with..but when it comes to something new, like settling Mars...I think there has to be some sort of common standard put into place to avoid confusion.  As you very well know, confusion may not be a big deal on Earth, but on Mars, it could mean the difference between life and death.  Like I said before...it may be something as simple as a straight count..and this is probably what will happen in the early days, and individuals would be able to keep track of the Earth calender as they see fit.

As much I hate it, you're absolutely right...as this whole calender business so aptly proves.. 

B

Gee, this board does funny things sometimes..it killed my post..good thing there's copy and paste...lol

Clark:  I don't belive you do as well. However, what you are setting up will lead to some sort of repression. 

And this is why I mentioned in my reponse to A.J. that I admit that my calender is likely unworkable in respect to keeping the weeks in sync...

Quote  Clark:
The problem arisies with the issue of any change to the generaly accepted "calander". Religion is in part largely ritual. Ritual's are highly formalized affairs- go to a catholic wedding, burial, or mass and you can see. Some beliefs require that a person do certain rituals at certain times of the day- on certain days. By changing the calander, you neccessarily change their rituals. That's the problem.

I'm also not sure a democratic calander can be achieved either- our current one was created by decree.
end quote--

The problem is that Mars won't let us carry out certain rituals the same way they are carried out here on Earth.  The Muslims and Jews depend on the cycles of the Moon to celebrate certain holidays..how will they do this on Mars?  Martian calender or not, it's going to be difficult to do some of these things, which is why people will have to adapt.

If you think that people can't get together and come up with a common calender..what do you think will happen instead?  What kind of calender do you think would work best on Mars?  Or will Martians be forever be reduced to complicated conversions to Earth-based calenders and competing Martain calenders?

Quote  Clark:
Alright then, how do you establsih that the government has the RIGHT to create a calander by which we all must abide? Is it the governments job to decide what day it is, and how long that day is?
end quote--

How do we establish that the government has the right to tax us for things that certain people decide that needs to be done for the common good?  If the people on Mars decide that it would be best that a common authority come up with a standardized calender to be used for everyday business, etc, wouldn't that totally reasonable to think this is what will happen?  It'd be no different than an authority deciding whether drugs should be legal, how much of common resources such as water and energy each person is allowed to consume, and all the other things you have mentioned in other threads that would be essential to survive on Mars.  It is my opinion that whatever system is used for common use be fair to many people as possible, as well as being simple and easy to use, like the metric system.  I've come to realize that making an interruption to the system of weeks is probably not a very good idea...but that still doesn't solve the overall problem that people's system of keeping time is going to be a bit different on Mars, and that adapting to any sort of Martian system, whatever it may be, may be difficult for many people.

Quote Clark:
'Common' things such as these, that apply to the society as a whole...that's where we should leave religion behind in order to be fair to everyone.

Yeah, you leave all beliefs behind, SAVE ONE, the belief that there is no god, and there is no religion. You are choosing one belief over all others, instead of trying to incorporate all beliefs needs
end quote--

I think I wasn't expressing myself clearly..as is often the case...and I probably shouldn't have made that statement.   I was mainly referring to the arena of public institutions, such as the government.  Those are the kind of things that need to be kept secular, but that does not preclude people from practicing their faith on a private basis...and that's the kind of system that should ensure harmony for everyone.

Quote  Clark:
How do you establish that a calander is 'public'? Am i required to acknoledge that today is the 10th of October in the year of our lord two thousand and two? What if I don't? Should Mars, once establishing a state sanctioned calander, enforce the use by punishing those who choose not to follow it? If we are not required to follow it, what point is there in having the government create one?
end quote--

It's just like the system of common measurements...are we required by law to use the English system in the U.S.?  We can use whatever we want, but since English is the 'standar' system in the U.S., that's what most people use.  Same thing on Mars.  If people don't like the new standard calender, who says there has to be laws to 'force' people to use it?  If a calender is voted into existence, and a group of people absolutly hate it, what's to stop them from using the process of petition to seek a change in the calender?  We seem to work things out for the most part in the U.S. and Europe...I don't see why this same kind of process can't work on Mars.

Quote Clark:
Okay, i understand your point, but it seems that you are equating, or belive that religious people are more prone to be close minded versus non religious people who are more prone to be open minded. The  thing is, a "religious" person is someone who simply has made a decision to belive in something as true, which you or others consider to be false.
end quote--

I do think that religious people do tend to be close-minded...and I have been on the receiving end of that close-mindedness...so I do admit some of my previous posts have been tained with this sort of thinking.  I do realized that religion can be open-minded and progressive as well...and if these are the traits that get carried over to Mars, I would be happy to see religion grow and adapt on Mars...as long as they don't repeat the dreadful mistakes they have made here on Earth.

Quote Clark:
As for the whole calander idea, wouldn't it be best to make a bunch of different systems and then let everyone decide which one they want to use? Which ever one is used the most becomes the defacto calander- the real neccessity of a calander is rendered meaningless on mars or in space- it's only function is for trade.
end quote--

Maybe this would be the best way to go...but I suspect that it would be a very messy process.  If the idea of different seconds is bad, like the differing systems of measurements, having 50 different competing calenders out there might cause more than a few problems.  And who knows how long it would take for the de facto calender to finally come into commmon use...

B
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