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GCNRevenger,
It is better ( larger spaceplane ) than using our current stuff like rockets to expand the human race into space. We will need to start using large capacity drives starting with NTRs then moving to thermo-plasma propulsion, and then do more research to accelerate faster off the planet.
I am talking about testing the drive system on earth , In one of the nuclear declared zones and test all the different drive assemblies to find out the best and most thrust/fuel/ weight ratio. Model the spaceplane in computers and wind tunnel test the design. I am not talking about construction of the NTR yet. I would then work at spaceplane construction and testing as an aircraft first. At the same time as full size spaceplane testing and evluation a full size NTR would be tested and fuel / thrust testing including calibration of the drive system for the most efficient capacity. Then finally put the spaceplane and booster together in the nuclear decalred zone.
I will explain a bit more, the NTR Engine would be a strap-on booster , aerodynamic in design to fit with the design of the spaceplane, second the nuclear drive will not activate until 38-45, 000 ft in the air. Yes, I have some concerns size and capacity of the drive system that is where research and testing plays a part in the development. Once out in space orbiting earth the NTR booster is removed and remains in orbit, the spaceplane only returns with cargo or returning personnel. In case of in-flight emergency the strap-on booster can separate from ship and have a parachute recovery system installed with GPS locator system.
What about designing a complete spaceplane that has in-built turbojet engines and a nerva style strap on booster that would be removed in orbit. We could deliver all the requirements for earth orbit with significant cost savings including the recycling of nerva engine systems to moon and other planet vessel platforms.
I agree with McCullough, in his assessment of the plan to get large scale colonization to Mars and expand humanity into space. Using the Moon and L Points close to the moon would provide an excellent zone to build large ships for cargo and human transport to Mars.
The logistics to move 100 people to Mars is hard moving 1000+ people will be more difficult becuase of training and other factors would require alot of earth resources and a large passenger launch facility into orbit and a large orbitial space station and alot of earth - moon transfer vessels.
But , I still think it can be done , after going through each error and elimiating them.
The issue is FULL FUNDING OF SPACE EXPLORATION!!!!!
The US Political Structures have always limited the funding of NASA and other related space activities. We have many serious issues to overcome to launch / land and return a manned mission to the moon and mars, and continue manned missions until the permanent outpost or settlement structures are in place for long term placement of staff in orbit, on the moon and travelling exploring our solar system.
IT's a JOKE Funding from congress , it should be twice or three times the current budget. !!!!!!!!!!! Let us out to explore >>>>>
:bars2:
Well, you haven't looked at the regulations lately!!!!
http://ast.faa.gov]Administrator of Commerical Space Transportation under the FAA
This provides the legal, safety and quality control framework for the commercial space industry within the United States.
I would like to see, a third party of humans go to mars and tell the other nations to get lost coming to mars. Setup another human settlement and setup immigration policies and other regulations and not allow the nations of earth to formulate their land grab of mars.
If, Rep. D-Jim Oberstar, wants to be that stupid then so be it. Private industry will go to other places and expand the private space industry without the USA, if they make it hard to go into space without alot of red tape.
If you wanted to colonize our solar system then, it comes down to resources, meaning space vessels and the material resources to build them and maintain them. Firstly, I would build on the moon a small human base with a larger robotic procesiing and manufacturing facility to assembly a material processing vessel to go to the asteroid belt to mine and process minerals. The second move would be developing an outpost on Mars in a primary, secondary and teritary locations for the future three cities on Mars for colonization and settlement. Once the material processing vessel is full with processed supplies and group of remote cargo vessels would approach and load the cargo bound for Mars and Earth space ( earth , orbit or moon ) Mars supplies would bring the outposts the supplies required to build larger settlements. Earth space would receive the minerals required for processing into ship fabrications. With the additional processed minerals , larger vessels can be constructed for human settlement to begin on Mars and work forward.
This is the only rapid way to expand into space and reducing the costs for the massive project from earth based resources.
We do not need to colonize the astroid belt , I can see a large group of mining stations and some manned and some unmanned / remote commanded from the manned stations but for colonization / permanent settlements should be looked for planetary or large atomspheric moons of larger planets where the large infrastructure, food processing and other facilities.
You don't need AI to develop robotic systems for outer space, a rule based software environment can be used to build up a complex software environment for the robotic systems to function.
The current gaming, graphics and other media technologies can be used to create an effective software platform for robots to function in space and where the rules haven't got answer the robotic unit will request an update from command and a new rule will be supplied applying to those conditions.
We require a storage medium within the robotic units to process and apply the rules while construction or other related tasks. we could also develop a monitor environment in VR world and can override any robotic unit under supervision from within the VR environment.
While the robotic systems may seem to function independently they don't but act under supervision and lead by a human controller as team leader or supervisor.
You need to use the methods that make business grow, you need to use the methods that make people proud of their country and patriotic voices. But the differnce now is, we need to bring the human race out of the shell of earth and get them to think beyond our planets blue sky.
GCNRevenger,
The question I asked was a simple Yes or No, and if Yes the who ?
" CEV Contractors are any developing a replacement to the space shuttle or a reusable spaceplane technology "
The discussion you started regarding the differences between capsule or reusable shuttle, comes down to the tourist and immigration statement I made on another topic. The capsule is a small vehicle for up to 8 person like a mini-van / suv or other vehicles similar in size compare to a shuttle like a bus ( single deck, multi-deck or extend length ) carrying upwards of 10 times the passengers.
Secondly, to move that volume of passengers into space denotes the infrastructure requirements for that volume of passengers including living environment and work environment. Thus expanding humanity from a tourist race into space but an immigrating race into space with a permanent presence in space in a larger scale and larger infrastructure then before.
GCNRevenger,
I asked If anyone hear of any of the CEV Contractors developing concepts for CEV with a spaceplane design.
Furthermore, GCNRevenger, I didn't ask about the use of spaceplanes as lunar lander craft, I wanted to know if anyone was designing a total transportation system for atomspheric and non-atomspheric environments other than the old capsule / lander approach.
The CEVs information I have seen is the Tourist type capsule concept for 3-8 persons for short-term duration missions. I want to know if any of the contractors are looking at large cargo, passenger and crew volume for their transportation systems.
As usual we are going to spending billions of dollars on a system that doesn't work and in the long term must be scrapped because its like using a " small boat " to try and move the a superliner of passengers, crew, cargo, and supplies to moon , mars and beyond.
GCNRevenger ,
What I have read the Crew Exploration Program is to develop a complete transportation program for space movement of humans from earth - to - orbit, orbit - to moon, orbit to mars, mars orbit to martian surface and beyond.
Spaceplane technologies could be used for both earth - orbit - earth and mars orbit - surface as well. I wanted to know if anyone has read any CEV Companies working on spaceplanes ?
GCNRevenger,
I agree and disagree with you and Martian Republic in essence you both are right. But we need both a realistic long term objective. The main question we should be asking is - Are we going out into space as tourists or Are we going to immigrate to space ?
When we have that answer, then we can work from that, because If we are tourists then we don't need mass infrastructure in space and supply facilities and large robotic construction / engineering equpment and other facilities for our immigration into space.
If its immigration to space then we need to teach the common human person to work, and live in space and have a human society in space , alot different to taking a holiday in space as a race and coming back to earth.
Do you know if any CEV Companies are working on a replacment shuttle ? to carry more than 5 crew and passengers into orbit ?
Grypd,
I am looking at a different standpoint !!!!!
I see that we have the technology to get into space but we don't have a overall strategy for space for humanity. We are like the "three blind mice" in the fable we can't see where we are going and we don't have a plan for the future. I have start on that and then working backwards working all the issues and nearly have all them worked out on paper the next thing is to implement the strategy.
The first and most important thing is having space expertise for humanity in all areas including all aspects to colonization including construction, command, argiculture and medical just to name a few.
The fact of getting there is the easy part , like spaceshipone and branson has shown , you can always come up with methods and processes to get you there but what comes after that.
We haven't got the necessary infrastructure on the planet earth for large scale movement into space of humanity. We need that infrastructure and also with different laws across the world we will have different facilities and different emergency processes and more .
Welcome Manchu4,
Robotic Droids and other remote vehicles can be controlled by humans near or far from the location and also they could assist humans in exploration, colonization and settlement of the moon, mars and beyond.
We could also develop team based robotic systems that act in networked workgroups that could be supervisor or lead by a human team leader / supervisor it depends on the complexity of the software managing these droids and the capacity of the droids and memory functions.
The shuttle arm is a robotic device controlled by humans and the ISS Arm is a larger variation of the shuttle's arm. For the Lunar Mining operations we could use a GPS Navigation system to monitor location and operations of mining droids. It depends on the research and development of the robotic systems for space applications for earth-orbit, on the moon, going and landing on mars and beyond.
Dook,
I said colonization, means 100+ permanent people on mars not exploration for 4-12 people on a joyride ( temporary facility ) . In the same timeframe 5 - 10 times (500-1000+) that number for the lunar surface and in orbit above earth.
In earth orbit - a permanent space station for large amount of personnel and facilities for corporate to lease space both personnel quarters and office space to operate in space with floating factories these numbers are very small indeed. The transport of cargo, personnel to and from orbit will increase the value of space industrial sector in orbit and increase participation within these activities.
I didn't say that I would use nuclear weapons ( too primative ) requires a delivery mechanism, good quality rail gun weapons platform is far better and could target and eliminate targets incoming to Mars from the moons of Mars. ( If I was going to use an offensive security device.)
Dook Austin Stanley, GCNRevenger,
I have said only to get the right framworks in place, and should be pushed by groups like Mars Society and other societies throughout the world. We need to try or we have a world without united and common activities in space.
Dook,
Colonization of Mars and beyond is about 50 years out, but the outposts and various infrastructure is 20-35 years out. The lunar outposts 10-15 years out, and lunar settlement is 25-40 years out. That is the latest timelines.
And planning has started on colonization of Mars from various groups, and Mars Society are talking and training for what ? outpost or colonization ?
The Moon Society is using Mars Society facilities to train for lunar outposts, and the Internet is discussing, planning and working on complex issues for an interstellar internet for communication between earth, mars, moon and orbiting stations and spacecrafts ( working party setup last year )
GCNRevenger,
WTO wouldn't work with private enterprise involvement it is only for government to government issues.
Dook,
When the SSI or " Star Wars " Scientific teams discussed in " layman's terms what would happen to nuclear weapons in space, they discussed the radiation, flash , the casing would be destroyed, but the destructive blast power of Nuclear Weapons wouldn't exist like here on earth, the weapons need a object to be in the immediate blast area to be effected.
I work in science reality, we don't have plasma based weapons but do have laser and rail gun based weapons, secondly the star trek " torpedo launcher is just a rail gun firing high explosive nuclear shells like a field artillery or ship-based artillery. All currently developed technology, not futuristic technology but not used to create these variation weapons and we don't want that.
In all these technologies it requires a class of vessels still in drawing boards and not on physical reality. It requires the development of power systems and drive systems for these types of vessels that could also assist in the colonization and settlement of Mars and Beyond.
I only said " that we need a framework that does work for humanity but not against humanity in space and the application of resources for the next generations to come", If we don't have that framework in place at the beginning then it will take a time to recreate it in the future and may cost more that if we started at the beginning and worked forward.
Firstly to GCNRevenger,
I wasn't meaning he was naieve but he lives in a world that the ruthless and greed of humanity isn't around. If we don't fix these structure issues before we could have space-based warfare and the best group wins the whole pot. (all the colonies, outposts and planetary bodies )
Austin Stanley
The advent of Nuclear Weapons under MAD only applies on earth, in order to use the same preventative methods in space doesn't work. Nuclear Weapons don't act the same in space as they do on earth.
Also automated defensive platforms could be used to protect the access to the Mars colonies and the moons of Mars could be used as longer range weapons platforms.
That is why the United States has space command and military strategists diversing strategies to command threats from and within orbit space and beyond. Every other country would have the same type of command structure or department.
I am not saying this would happen but that is why it would be better to have all participants for inter-planetary voyages must go under one framework controlled through regulations across the world. ( for beyond the earth-moon territory space ) This would remove the issues occurring in the first place and also bold the various teams and governments for humanity.
FInally, About costs >
The limited resources will keep increaing in price and reduce in volume for earth-based resources and the resources in space will evaluation become less expensive and more accessible, and that is what i was meaning the governments then will want those resources for their people in space on colonies and for earth based people.