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Japan is sending a mission again (its last 2 have failed)
You have to remember that the ISS sections "belonging" to ESA were supposed to be a lot more able to operate independent to the rest of the station. This was thouroughly nixed by NASA so now with a new station needed that gives ESA a chance to put in its previous intentions
I Wish I had more time to be able to be on this forum but as im not an US citizen perhaps I can put my penny in
SLS is as stated a pork barrel project but this has been the case with most US space launch capability for at least the last 50 years. It is an unfortunate result of what is a democracy people elected are intrested in being elected and as such when these come up the first question is what is in it for me. And dont get me wrong often this is a point of view were elected officials are looking out for those who elected them they want jobs and prosperity to come to their people. It just makes everything a bit more expensive.
But on this thread we asked why is the SLS not more reusable the answer is simple it is proven technology and I have to ask if your senate and congress actually trust Space X and Musk im not sure.
For Grypd re #15
You joined the forum back in 2004, so I went back to see how you entered the fray. At the time, there appears to have been a proposal in the works to ship prisoners to Mars. Your opening post was part of that discussion.
Your more recent interest in harvesting materials from the Moon includes an idea I've not seen before, and I'm hoping you might be willing to develop it a bit.
The specific concept was:
build very thin towers and simply dangle mirrors on them to reflect light down either for use in solar panels or for industrial purposes.
Your 1800+ posts probably contain information about your background, but to save me (and perhaps others) the time it would take to find out, by any chance do you have an engineering background?
You will (no doubt) have noticed that Calliban is a working engineer, and kbd512, while not an engineer, ** is ** adept at computing relevant numbers in many areas of discussion.
In this case, I am hoping the NewMars members who participate in this topic can reveal if your idea has merit, and (assuming it does) how to ship unlimited amounts of solar power to wherever it is needed on the lunar surface.
(th)
Hi Tahanson
I have been involved with space from a very young age and though I do have a degree, its in electrical engineering which I was involved as hobby long before I was a teen. Incidentally my career went completely a different direction ces la vie.
The moons lack of atmosphere and of course 1/6 th gravity means that creating lightweight but tall structures are a lot easier. Of course we will not be sending large supplies of solar power elements the idea and one that has been shown in a lab is to use the lunar regolith to create insitu solar cells. Actually we have a thread somewhere were the whole process of solar cell production could be completely automated and power issues with mirrors also made insitu could easily be a non issue. (At the poles only though)
My knowledge of magnetics came through my own experimentation and of course keeping an eye on academic works as time has passed.
I like the idea. Are you thinking of riding the solar wind with magnetic bubbles?
Done.
Oh magnetics yes but utilising long cables and solar power to create electrodynamic tugs which use lorentz forces on the earths magnetic field to either slow or speed up a vehicle.
Nasa proved the technology works on its TSS and TSR missions from the space shuttle
Remember that in the low lunar gravity it is possible to build very thin towers and simply dangle mirrors on them to reflect light down either for use in solar panels or for industrial purposes. Our missions to the moon and our own modelling indicate that going one metre under the surface will give a constant tempature of between -20 and -30 degrees C no matter the surface conditions. Since we will probably require a lot more depth to insulate the crews from radiation we can easily design habitats designed to deal with this constant tempature. Actually thinking about it we can use a variant heat pump system to provide some power using these variables.
[Electrolysis on mars, earth, moon all have the issue of power constant use among other issues.]
That is not necessarily true as one of the reasons for going to the poles on the Moon is those peaks of eternal light and we can make infrastructure light so we can get more light and in that way solar power.
One of the options we can have is the use of solar electric tugs these tugs using magnetism for all intents could be a slow but reliable way of being able to bring fuel probabily in the form of tanks of methane or ammonia from low to high earth orbit but when mixed with oxygen extracted from the moon able to power missions further into space even to fueling a potential Mars to Earth cycler
Thankyou Guys
Im still hopeful for the development of Thorium fuelled micro reactors
I think you are missing the point of using nuclear reactors on Mars
It is all to do with electricity, Unlike the Moon and Earth orbit Mars is so far from the sun that daylight at full noon is similar to twilight here on the Earth. Wind pressure on turbines is too low and so the only realistic power sourde for a manned colony at the beginning is nuclear.
I can hope we fing Thermal hotspots and underground Aquifers under pressure but for sustained power nuclear we have to go. Biodiesel is ok but any initial colony needs a regular supply of power.
Thanks Guys
China is an economic bubble and that is a problem.
But purely back to space I can see China going for prestige missions but they do not have the capability to keep anything that comes close to the continous ability to Launch mass regularily.
The west has that with Space X and Blue origin etc with the ability to reuse rockets and the ability to put much heavier payloads into space with this increasing
14 years ago I stated that the Chinese space program was not as good as what the Europeans under ESA could do
I was right
But China has kept investing and the space program has become a symbol of Chinas future
That means the money has flowed
Chinas capability is now very good from what it stole from Russia and (other nations) it has advanced to the point it is putting a space station into Earth orbit, I do not though believe that manned missions to the Moon or Mars will be possible for at least another 14 years
The trouble is I can see both sides
There is the scientist looking to Mars as a great untouched living Laboratory
And then there is the engineer who will transform the planet to provide homes for a human population
Do you know what is the worst problem both ideas are not only honourable but also right
A very large part of alternative oil (oilsands, Fracking) have been heavily impacted by the drop in price of oil and have simply disappeared. Normally Opec nations reduce production when prices are low and it raises the price of a barrel but the fact is modern technology is so good that if the Opec countries reduce production they will find the competitors simply increase production and they lose permanently market share.
There are many tankers filled with oil simply anchored awaiting a change in the markets to allow them to sell there cargo.
The Moon has power from solar etc to make it a major space factory for us. But food growth sorry a 28 day cycle seriously screws this.
Mars though a dark world has an atmosphere of CO2 that can be used to grow plants and with a low gravity can supply the whole solar system with less cost than any launch from earth.
Ceres is in the asteroid belt with almost no gravity but we can carve into it and we can utilise those meteor belt objects to provide very rich materials to anywhere we can make it and that also includes the Moon and Mars orbit.
It is called triangle trade but it really is not. It is orbital dynamics that moving materials using the least amount of energy wins every time. Powered cargoes will be by tugs using the most efficient engines and currently we are talking a variant of long use electric-Ion engines
Bad news they have put back (again) the launch of the new glenn rocket to at least the last quarter of 2023
It could really be unburnt gasses left in the engine area that are then when in sea pressure levels then can catch fire. There are many reasons for the fire but any fire left to carry on will burn into something important.
All I really hope for is that they get rid off all these issues to the point that they will not be an issue for crewed missions
Somewhere in this forums history we discussed this before.
One option is that the Moon could become the "factory" of the solar system fed with asteroidal resources and Martian food.
Mars could be supplied with advance technology from the Moon and metals from the asteroid belt
and finally the belt miners can pay for there food with credits from experts to the moon.
And why will this happen easy orbital dynamics and energy
I agree. The Moon will essentially be for tourism and maybe used as a parking lot. Terraformation is not an option because the silvery moon just has too much resonance for us down on Earth...we will never allowed it to be terraformed.
I don't really see the Moon as a really good tourism site but it does represent a very good site for Industry and for science. Any place we can control in almost real time from Earth is of great benefit especially in the form of Infra red spectrometry. There are many advanced sciences we are close to doing that I would hesitate to have done on our planet ie genetic virus work or nano disassembly.
The Moon does also have advantages for example plentiful power and resources as well as a very much reduced atmosphere and gravity
The difference between the landings on the Moon and Mars is that we go to Mars to Colonise but to the Moon to utilise.
The advantage of the Moon is resources and energy but also its closeness especially with the science of Telerobotics and its use on the Moon,
I know getting Magnesium on the Moon is reasonably easy but so is to get Aluminium and with that we can create a reasonable solid rocket which could well be made on the moon and then launch resources like Oxygen and possibly lunar water to Earth orbit much cheaper than a supply from the Earth.
At the beginning of this topic GCNRevenger stated quite clearly and correctly that to launch from the Earth to the Moon takes just a little less energy than travelling to Mars. But travelling from the Moon to Earth is much less energy requirement and if you can create a vehicle that uses lunar propellant to be able to travel not only from the Moon to Earth but also the other way then a Future lunar base becomes a viable plan
Bigelow habs are not for short term accommodation they are actually more resistant than the current ISS hab structures. If we are serious about space we need to utilise Near Earth space as well as the Moon and of course the Asteroid belt and Mars.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … &eim=1,2,6
Look we can do this
I don't think Space X is a good fit for Bigelow what is though is Blue origin they are interested in Oneil type colonies
That is quite sad but it is an indicator of how the space Industry is. Bigelows inflatable habitation is simply the fastest and cheapest way to make the lunar gateway. But politics are coming out and all the other countries involved have to have a bit of the pie. The first iteration of the station was a couple of Bigelows modules now they are all to be made in other countries. Bigelow is frozen out and of course cannot sell modules to other countries as this is against US law
With this virus even though in the UK we have 593 cases this is those who tested positive. In this we have between 5 to 10 thousand people infected who just are not carrying that much of a severe symptom.
This norovirus picks on those with pre existing conditions and those who are unlucky and using global figure that is averaging about 14%
As in all things a failure is just a learning experience, Now they simply look at what did work and then what failed and see what could fix it.
