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#1 Re: Civilization and Culture » Militarization -Before- Colonization? » 2005-01-12 05:38:43

I don't know about militarization; this is an issue of the political conflicts of the time. I do think that the entire Mars colony will be extremely commercialized from the beginning. So if the colonists will want to build their own society on Mars, nut just the megacorporate society enforced on them by economical elements back on Earth, they'll need to fight :bars2: - and then there will be militarization for sure.

#2 Re: Civilization and Culture » Mars Colonists visit the ancestral homeworld » 2005-01-12 05:31:09

It all boils down, IMHO, to the level of technology at the time of return; with current-day technology, chances are that a return visit would be nearly impossible. With bioengineering, cybertechnology (we have it's beginning now), exoskeletons (the US military has a few exoskeleton prototypes) and/or nanotech, things would probably become far easier.

#3 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Revolution - Which side are you on? » 2005-01-12 05:20:07

Back after so many months...

I will support the Revolution, though not without reservations. Overthrowing a colonialist tyranny is a worthy cause; however, isolationism, even Martian isolationism, isn't. The Mars liberationists must make an appeal to their brethern on Earth, opressed both by Islamic reactoinaries and American militarists, an appeal to join them in revolt against opression and for direct democratic control over their destinies.

Even if the revolution on Earth would fail, a free Mars could give its support to the Earther masses, help them to re-organize and to fight for the same goal - not only planetary sovriegnity, but true democracy and overthrowing the opressive generals, beurocracts, mullahs and corporations.

Mars must carry the flag of true freedom and mass democracy (including democratic control over the economy), or it will be isolated and will, eventually, be outnumbered and out-produced by the forces of tyranny.

#4 Re: Civilization and Culture » Space Elevators: Absolutely Crucial? » 2004-08-13 14:40:42

As Grypd and Martian Republic have already said,
A space elevator will make Martian exportation to the rest of the solar system viable; Otherwise, the cost will be prohibitive. Most exports, I suppose, will be technological and agricultural products - mining would most likely be done on astroids.

And could an orbital elevator be built for Earth? one article I've read refers to the problems inherit to its annoyingly strong gravity field...

#5 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Should God be Exported to Mars? » 2004-02-09 01:26:33

I don't think that a government of any kind should have an official policy regarding religion; the two extreme examples of governmental religious control are the USSR (which outlawed religion) and Iran (in which Islam is the law), and both were/are (The USSR was, Iran still is) ruthless dictatorships.

Religion is a personal thing. As long as one's religious practices harm no other, he or she should be left alone to worship his or her God/ess/es. This is the essence of democracy - freedom of faith, of thought and of religious practice.

A government should stay as far away from religion as possible, for the good of its own citizens. Governments exist to deal with practical things, and only cause harm when they start to impose a religious belief/disbelief from abouve. We should bring our religions along with us to Mars, but try to leave dictatorship and Big Brother behind.

#6 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » 5th International Convention in Boulder - Who owns Mars? Not  Lightman or the USA! » 2002-08-16 23:01:31

1. The U.N. is too bloated and corrupt to act as a custodian for Mars.

I was talking about an international treaty, not the UN. The UN is inefficient to the extreme. The treaty should form an independant international body which will control Mars affairs. To the very least, this organization should be composed of the representatives of all nations that will participate in the colonization project.

The United States is a beacon of freedom and would be the most likely to ensure that Martians live as a free society.

The USA might be a "beacon of freedom" right now; some people will argue on that but the last thing I want is this thread to turn into a "Bash America" one. However, no one knows what the USA will be in several decades; giving one nation that power is problematic.

Any effort to colonize Mars would be lead, either entirely or in part, by the United States.  Furthermore, the United States has a favorable economic status for acting as a custodian for an extended amount of time.

If the USA will only take part in the effort, it should not be the one totally in control of it; this would be unfair towards other participating nations. I don't think that any single Earth nation should have a "custodian" status on Mars, be that the USA, Russia, the EU or China; Since we're talking about a time period ranging from decades to centuries (whatever time it will take to make Mars independant), and no one could predict what would happen during that time. Giving too much authority to one nation and making the project economically dependant on it would put too many eggs in one basket. What would happen to the project if the USA will have a less democratic or less efficient government? What if the opponents of space exploration win in the USA? Involving more nations in the decision making proccesses will increase the stability of the project. But as long as there will be an international treaty governing the process, and thus limiting the authority of any one nation in this issue, I don't really care who governs the effeort.

#7 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » 5th International Convention in Boulder - Who owns Mars? Not  Lightman or the USA! » 2002-08-15 14:02:14

How could a nation *own* a planet? By what right could they declare that it is thiers, the whole planet? Yes, if an earth-based government will build a colony on mars, it could claim ownership over it. But the *entire* planet? This is simply imperialism. IMHO, it kinda of defeats the porpuse of the Mars Society to devide Mars between Earth nations or to have one or more nations single-handidly claim ownership over unsettled, unterraformed tracts of Martian soil for the purpose of future exploitation. Such acts could possibly lead to colonial wars on Mars: assume that the USA, for example, says that the entire Marineris (sp?) region belongs to it, What would the American colonists do if a chinese landing module will land in a claimed area, far away from any other colony? shoot it down? Take over the new colony? Remember, this is not the early 1700's in North America; these are the 2000's on Mars. We should try our best to avoid such conflicts; if Mars will just become another Earth, torn by warfare and hatered, it will do the Human race no good.

Until Mars could support itself independantly of Earth, it should be governed by an international body which should be regulated by an international treaty. Once Mars could possibly be intependant, it should be. By that time, Mars will belong to Mars.

Bringing projectile weapons and high explosives to a pressurized enviroment is not recommended. Even if the outer walls/hull of the habitat will be strong enough to prevent breaching and explosive decompression as a result of impact by a stray bullet, there will be too many machines critically needed for survival around that could be damaged in a firefight. There are enough non-lethal or non-projectile weapons available today that projectile weapons will not be absolutely nescery.

#8 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The New Frontier - About Mars, settlement, and space law » 2002-06-23 14:28:39

Not Osama Bin Laden himself, but predecesors (sp?) of the Taliban. In 1979, the USSR invaded Afghanistan, so the USA (naturally) funded, armed and trained the Afghan resistance movements which opposed the soviets. Ofcourse, most of these resistance movements were extremist islamic ones. The moral of this story: never finance a terrorist, not even to make the terrorist a weapon against your foe.

The problem is that most governments invest their budgets in short-sighted, oftenly-useless-in-the-long-term objectives. But doing something which would possibly bear fruits only in a long time?

I personally do not belive that Mars will be colonized by any single government. It will be done either by a coalition of several nations, or by a consorteum (sp?) composed of several corporations. And the latter is far more likely than the former.

#9 Re: Human missions » Is the Ming Dynasty a relevant analogy? - Go now or wait til it gets cheap enough? » 2002-06-23 14:10:11

If the corporations will colonize Mars, it will be more along the lines of C rather than anything else; No, there will be no natives to enslave, but the motives behind the colonization would be those of economical profit and gaining power rather than scientific knowledge of the "good of Mankind. And belive me, once we will reach the technological level which will allow a Mars mission or colony to be profitable (even if it will only be from media rights, merchandising and so on), it will only be a matter of time until someone such as Bill Gates will try to get his hands on this profit.

#10 Re: Life support systems » Power generation on Mars » 2002-05-19 05:16:08

Nuclear power is far more efficient than solar or wind power, especially in the first missions, as it produces far greater amounts of energy per weight unit, and as long as you launch the equipment from Earth, weight would be one of the most important factors. I think that most people tend to exaggerate the risks involved in using nuclear power, as it was used for decades in naval vessels without too many accidents, and as long as the reactor is placed sufficiently far from the Mars base, the main risk to the mission from a reactor accident would be the loss of the power generation capability (and Mars vehicles, structures and suits would be pressurised and protected from radiation anyway, so a small leak from a small, distant reactor will be far less dangerous than on Earth). Ofcourse, by the time a permament Mars base will be built, Fusion power might be possible (I've read estimates about fusion power being available somewhere around 2050, but it's probably inaccurate).

#11 Re: Human missions » Space Command - Space Command » 2002-05-18 14:10:42

I suppose that the question of what the face really is would remain open until Cydonia itself will be explored throroughly. Ofcourse, if you belive that someone is already hiding something concerning it, you can't be sure that they'll give you the truth when they'll explore it...

And, from the ground level, the face will probably look like any other hill - it's quite big. You'll have to see it from abouve in order to see it's features. Assuming that it's actually artificial.

Or it could be just an optical illusion, just as the "canals" were. The Human mind seeks familiar patterens in everything. That's why we have arranged the randomly-placed stars into "constellations".

No one could know what the face really is until someone actually lands there and starts exploring.

#12 Re: Civilization and Culture » Crew Composition - Okay, OTHER than you, who should go? » 2002-05-12 04:44:01

IMHO, one of the most important aspects of a manned Mars mission is the fact that you'll have a relatively small Human crew completely isolated from any other Human contact (except for laggy radio/TV contact with Earth, which won't be real-time anyway) for a year or more. You'll need people who could basically perform any required task on the vessel, from repairs to medical care, without outside help. If anything goes wrong, they are completely on their own. And, you'll need the crew to be able to funtion even if one or more crew members become uncapable of doing their jobs (due to insanity, accidents etc). What you'll need is a team of cross-trained professionals each trained in more than one field, and atleast minimally capable in a large number of fields. Sure, each crew member should have a specific job on the vessel, but should also be able to perform task outside of his/her field of speciality in the case of emergency. Ofcourse, astronauts should also have prior experience in life in a small, isolated community (ISS, Antartica etc). The ethnical/national/religios makeup of the crew would probably depend on who will send the mission in the first place (in other words, if China sends its own Mars mission, don't expect any westerners to be on it...)

#13 Re: Life on Mars » Mars Sample Return - Threat of back-contamination » 2002-05-10 03:42:36

Shaun Barrett, thank you for pointing out that the theory about the Martian soin being highly oxidant is not proven do far. Yet, I find it difficult to believe that anything lives on the martian surface, atleast not in the upper layers of regolith; even if the soil is not oxidant, Martian surface conditions are far from anything comfortable for life: extremely high radiation levels, extremely low temperatures and nearly no atmospheric pressure. If anything lives on Mars, it lives IN mars: either frozen in the permafrost/cryosphere (which term is correct?) from times when Mars was more hospitable, or living in hot water somewhere very deep under the surface where the heat allows liquid water to exist. And this might be the strongest argument against terraformation or even long term colonization: in drilling into the permafrost in order to gain water (or in heating Mars in a way which might someday cause the permafrost to melt), aren't we risking whatever life that might exist there? (or worse, aren't we risking contamination by whatever lives there?). This is why we need to get conclusive evidence regarding the exsitance of life on Mars before going there (hopefully, there will be no life there; otherwise we might have "moral" problems with the colonization project).

#14 Re: Life on Mars » Mars Sample Return - Threat of back-contamination » 2002-05-08 10:29:48

The Martian soil is pretty antiseptic and highly-oxidant by itself; The chances of anything staying alive, let alone being biologically-active on the Martian soil or anywhere near the surface, with the oxidant soil, total lack of liquid water, extreme radiation levels, extremely low atmospheric pressure and extremely low temperatures, are so low that the risk from early Mars sample return mission and even early manned missions is extremely low. IMHO, if there is anything alive on Mars, it's probably in the Cryosphere, frozen deep under the surface since the times when Mars was far warmer. This would pose a threat to anyone only if deep-drilling equipment would be employed or if Mars will be terraformed.

Also, aren't the safety measures employed in the case of the Apollo 11 crew enough to prevent contamination from a Martian sample? At the worst case the international space station could be used as a quarantine zone for the samples to be tested in without risking contamination to Earth itself.

#15 Re: Human missions » Space Command - Space Command » 2002-05-08 10:08:29

Peter Pensive, I did not mean to offend anyone on any military force; And I agree with you that military development was one of the main driving forces behind the space industry (especially since rocket technology used to launch objects into space was based on the technology intended to launch nukes into the enemy's territory). What I meant was that beurocracies have a tendancy to be inefficient by definition; Every military has the more intellient, educated part and the less intelligent, more paper-pusher part. Both parts are needed in order that the military force will be effective. Also, an intelligent, highly-educated military force will be woprth nothing if the politicians it serves aren't THAT smart (no offence intended to any particular politician, however stupid politicians exist and are unfortunately too common for the good of the world tongue).

About the face... I agree with you that we should wait until it will be investigated from the ground before jumping into any conclusions. However I still believe that some corporation will eventually build a "face" and "piramids" even if the real ones are merely optical illusions, for the sheer tourism-attracting economical value (read: people pay big bucks to get off earth, and all they could find on Mars is a local-themed Disneyworld-wannabe park and several McDonalds and Mars sovineur (sp?) shops selling small Marts rocks and plastic miniatures of the Pyramids and the Face for extremely high prices. Now I start to understand the Red ideology...  ??? )

#16 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » Colonizing asteroids » 2002-05-06 13:33:33

Here is the link to "PERMANENT", a site dedicated to lunar/near-earth astroid mining and colonization:
PERMANENT

#17 Re: Human missions » Space Command - Space Command » 2002-05-06 13:23:17

Ah! I knew it was not serious. My previous post explained why this was unlikely and stupid (but military forces aren't always THAT smart, not to mention governmental beurocracies...)

About the Face on Mars, there is no face there now, but who knows what future colonists will build in order to atract tourists... I already start to imagine a Martian theme park, complete with three-legged "Martians", a Face and pyramids, or even mini-canal boat trips. "Come to Lowell Land - Enjoy the thrilling flying saucer ride over the Face, ride the scenic canals of classical Mars and dance along with the three-legged Martians! And it's all only 30 minutes in the Maglev Train from Chyrse!" wink

#18 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Something interesting... - A website I came across. » 2002-05-06 03:55:47

The UN? the UN is not a government but a loose organization composed of a vast array of nations which often have conflicting interests. The UN has a very limited authority over individual governments and does not seem to have the ability to coordinate an entire Mars colonization proccess by its own, unless individual member nations agree between themselves to cooperate in this matter.

#19 Re: Human missions » Space Command - Space Command » 2002-05-06 03:36:31

Is this verified? and why should they do it? To prevent contamination? won't quarantine on a space station be enough for them, or is there any other reason for this?

It seems extremely stupid to me that one part of the USA government will launch a Mars sample return probe costing big bucks and another part of the USA government will shoot it down. Also, don't you think that the USAF Space Command's orders regarding things returning from Mars will be changed when and if a sample-return probe will be authorized by the government? of is it a non-US organization that threatens to screw over the US space program?

#20 Re: Human missions » If we start a crash program today.... - Earth to Mars timeframe? » 2002-05-05 04:19:09

As far as I see, the main thing delaying the Mars program is budget constrains; We have the technology to launch a "Mars Direct" plan in 2011 or even earlier, but unfortunately no one (that is, no government, corporation, organization or any combination of them) has yet allocated the budget for such a project (About 30 billion US$ for a bare-minimum Mars Direct program, or 50 billion US$ for NASA's design reference mission). All the technology required by such a program already exists, or could be derived from current technology. The only problem is in getting the governments to finance it...

#21 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Current Space Law - Some Questions » 2002-05-04 12:29:08

I suppose that this question will be settled once a permament Mars base will be actually built there. Treaties could be changed; The actual legal status would probably depend on who will finance the permament base; The more corporations involved, the more likely private individuals will be allowed to claim ownership over Martian soil. Also, it seems quite rediculus to me that a treaty disallowing private ownership of real estate on Mars will stil be in place at the time when actual large-scale civilian colonization will become reality. As long as you have a scientific station,  especially a multinational one, private ownership of land might not matter that much; once you'll get a non-scientific civilian colony, land ownership will become more of an issue.

#22 Re: Human missions » If we start a crash program today.... - Earth to Mars timeframe? » 2002-05-03 08:14:07

A manned Mars mission in 10 years for now is pretty optimistic. While we could possibly do it with current tech, the problem would be funding (30 billion $ for a bare-minimum Mars Direct project). Hopefully, as technology will advance, this will become cheaper, but I usually think of the 2030's as when a manned Mars mission would be likely to occure.

#23 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Martian independence - One kid's own opinion and speculation. » 2002-05-03 07:40:44

Human nature won't change THAT quickly, if it'll ever change. I remember reading about people who thought (in the early 1900's) that the 20th century will know no war. Then came two world wars, a cold war, and countless smaller regional wars, and proved them to be wrong. Sure, some nations are more democratic or more pacifist than others, but war crimes, terrorism, slavery, corruption, dictatorship and fundementalism still exist and will continue to exist.

About the multinational corporations, you should refer to the Napster case and the several Microsoft trials to see how corporations behave. Considering the amount of money corporations will probably invest in the Mars colony, I don't think they'll let Mars slip out of their hands so easily. Corporations large enough to sponsor, or atleast take major part in mars colonization projects would have extreme political power. Just think of the quality of the lawyers and the amount of the lobbyists they could recruit for their cause!

Though Mars might possibly achieve independance without violence, it will not achieve it without struggle; if a military struggle will be avoided, a political and legal struggle will still take place. Too many people with too many power won't like the idea of losing ownership of their major holdings on Mars.

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