Space Command - Space Command

Ian · 2002-04-17 10:40:55

I heard on Space.com's message board that either Space Command or some other group would shoot down any spacecraft returning from Mars. What are you going to do about this?

quasar777 · 2002-05-05 19:04:41

that would certainly be be good reason to moon wouldn`t it?

Omer Joel · 2002-05-06 03:36:31

Is this verified? and why should they do it? To prevent contamination? won't quarantine on a space station be enough for them, or is there any other reason for this?

It seems extremely stupid to me that one part of the USA government will launch a Mars sample return probe costing big bucks and another part of the USA government will shoot it down. Also, don't you think that the USAF Space Command's orders regarding things returning from Mars will be changed when and if a sample-return probe will be authorized by the government? of is it a non-US organization that threatens to screw over the US space program?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-06 05:53:58

Don't worry, Ian and Omer. I like to think I have a reasonably well developed bull**** detector and it's wailing and flashing all over the place on this one!!

Adrian · 2002-05-06 06:34:22

Hey Shaun, mind if I borrow that detector? I want to show it to the 'Face on Mars' guys...

Omer Joel · 2002-05-06 13:23:17

Ah! I knew it was not serious. My previous post explained why this was unlikely and stupid (but military forces aren't always THAT smart, not to mention governmental beurocracies...)

About the Face on Mars, there is no face there now, but who knows what future colonists will build in order to atract tourists... I already start to imagine a Martian theme park, complete with three-legged "Martians", a Face and pyramids, or even mini-canal boat trips. "Come to Lowell Land - Enjoy the thrilling flying saucer ride over the Face, ride the scenic canals of classical Mars and dance along with the three-legged Martians! And it's all only 30 minutes in the Maglev Train from Chyrse!"

quasar777 · 2002-05-06 15:40:03

well that would certainly make me wanna packup & head on to ceres or europa or titan,or luna, etc..

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-06 19:42:39

As per tradition, whenever NASA launches a new probe to Mars, they focus its cameras on the great face (and its surrounding areas).

The face itself is not what interests me, but the pyramid-like structures within its vicinity. I certainly don't believe anything is there, but even Sagan said that the area deserved closer inspection.

Here's a thumbnail of an image taken by THEMIS recently(April 13th):

Personally, there probably isn't anything (wacky and alien)there. But the pyramid-like structure below the face is intriguing, never-the-less. Not to mention the whole area is a geological trove of mostly unknown phenomena.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-07 01:57:53

It just goes to show how subjective all this Cydonia stuff really is.
There's Josh Cryer dismissing the Face and expressing interest in the so-called pyramids near the Face, while I have cheerfully dismissed the pyramids as angular mesas and still find the Face quite interesting!
I hasten to add that, although the Face still looks intriguingly like an eroded hominid/leonine face (at least to me), it doesn't mean I have taken the next step and accepted the Face as evidence of an alien civilisation! I certainly haven't.
In fact, for me, there would have to be reasonable doubt about the pyramids at Cydonia, too, in order to place any credence at all in the possible artificiality of the Face. What I mean is, there would have to be a kind of "package" or collection of suspicious oddities in juxtaposition to one another which would be supportive of the notion of artificiality. It seems nonsensical to me that any alleged aliens on Mars would carve a face and that's all; leaving no other indication of their existence in the vicinity.
Of course, the pyramids were purported to be part of just such a collection or "package" and, with only Viking resolution photos to go by, they were suspicious enough to pique the curiosity of even the great Carl Sagan, a man not given to flights of fancy.
But, if Carl Sagan had seen the pyramids at the resolution made available by the MGS, I feel confident he would have dismissed them, as I have, as irregular, angular, and naturally-formed rocky outcrops.
Now, I'm only human, and an artificially constructed pyramid on Mars is a much more exciting concept to me than a dusty old mesa! But I have looked long and hard at high resolution pictures of these so-called pyramids and, try as I might, I can see nothing unnatural about them. To me they're undoubtedly just rocks! And of course, if the pyramids are just rocks, then the case for the Face gets the rug pulled out from under it; the chances of artificiality dropping to the "vanishingly small" end of the scale!
That, for what it's worth, is my evaluation of the Cydonia thing. The Face is an interesting curiosity, but no more than that! (A pity really.)

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-07 05:38:21

...military forces aren't always THAT smart, not to mention governmental beurocracies...

Hmm...as a former U.S. military officer educated at one of our nation's service academies, I'd agree with your statement in general and offer the U.S. military as an exception to your aptly-stated rule. In fact, there is no major military force in the world that is more well-educated that that of the U.S. I'd point out that without military involvement, the U.S. would have no space program to speak of today. Military astronauts make up a major portion of the U.S. astronaut corps, and not all of them are pilots. I'm sure NASA has some interesting statistics on the web for anyone who's interested enough to do the research.

Regarding the "Space Command" directive that spawned this thread, I'd love to see a link to the referenced discussion at Space.com.

And regarding the Face, Pyramids, and City...well, I'm witholding my opinions until I've had a chance to go and check it out for myself.

Oh, and I prefer calling the future amusment park "Barsoom" as opposed to "Lowell-Land..."

GOM · 2002-05-07 14:50:27

1. Now, I'm only human, and an artificially constructed pyramid on Mars is a much more exciting concept to me than a dusty old mesa! But I have looked long and hard at high resolution pictures of these so-called pyramids and, try as I might, I can see nothing unnatural about them. To me they're undoubtedly just rocks! And of course, if the pyramids are just rocks, then the case for the Face gets the rug pulled out from under it;
2. The Face is an interesting curiosity, but no more than that! (A pity really.)

1. That's an odd conclusion to leap to. The Sphinx is also "just rock", as you say. So is Mount Rushmore. Do you dismiss them as natural formations?

2. The pity, really, is that you have reached your conclusion that The Face is "no more" than an interesting curiosity before all the facts are in.

GOM · 2002-05-07 14:53:26

And regarding the Face, Pyramids, and City...well, I'm witholding my opinions until I've had a chance to go and check it out for myself.

I'm with you all the way!

I've volunteered to take the trip, but NASA seems bound and determined to NOT allow any humans on Mars for many years to come....

Omer Joel · 2002-05-08 10:08:29

Peter Pensive, I did not mean to offend anyone on any military force; And I agree with you that military development was one of the main driving forces behind the space industry (especially since rocket technology used to launch objects into space was based on the technology intended to launch nukes into the enemy's territory). What I meant was that beurocracies have a tendancy to be inefficient by definition; Every military has the more intellient, educated part and the less intelligent, more paper-pusher part. Both parts are needed in order that the military force will be effective. Also, an intelligent, highly-educated military force will be woprth nothing if the politicians it serves aren't THAT smart (no offence intended to any particular politician, however stupid politicians exist and are unfortunately too common for the good of the world ).

About the face... I agree with you that we should wait until it will be investigated from the ground before jumping into any conclusions. However I still believe that some corporation will eventually build a "face" and "piramids" even if the real ones are merely optical illusions, for the sheer tourism-attracting economical value (read: people pay big bucks to get off earth, and all they could find on Mars is a local-themed Disneyworld-wannabe park and several McDonalds and Mars sovineur (sp?) shops selling small Marts rocks and plastic miniatures of the Pyramids and the Face for extremely high prices. Now I start to understand the Red ideology... ??? )

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-09 00:59:37

Hi GOM !!
I think sometimes I don't express myself very well. When I come to a conclusion about something like the Face (or flying saucers) I try to do so on the balance of probabilities. It seems to me, in the absence of sufficient facts to reach a conclusion, that that's about all any of us can do.
But I don't dismiss the Face and all that it entails light heartedly. As I tried to get across, I would be delighted if someone could show me irrefutable proof that Cydonia is full of the ruins of buildings constructed thousands of years ago by ... somebody!
But, although I still find the computer-enhanced high-resolution photos of the Face absolutely intriguing, I have to look at the balance of probabilities. Nothing else in the vicinity of the Face, even at high-resolution, looks to me like anything but natural mesas (and I've tried hard to see artificiality, believe me! ). So I then have to ask myself: Which is more likely, that aliens carved one mesa into the dual shape of a hominid's face on the left and a lion's face on the right, and left no other evidence of their existence in the area? Or that out of thousands of similar-sized mesas all over Mars, the wind and the sand have created by chance something we think looks familiar?
Carl Sagan, a man I admired very much, taught us that we owe it to ourselves to be sceptical because it's just too easy to become victims of deception; whether others deceive us or we save them the trouble and deceive ourselves! He was right, you know; a person will believe pretty much anything they want to believe. And, when you are mulling over whether or not to believe something, the more you want to believe it, the stricter you have to be with yourself in demanding hard evidence. If the evidence isn't hard enough, you just have to walk away from the whole thing until more evidence is forthcoming. It's not an easy thing to do and it takes quite a lot of self-discipline.
But I hope you will notice that at no time did I categorically state the Face is definitely NOT artificial. I said it is no more than an interesting curiosity.
That's about all you can honestly say about it in the absence of definitive proof; it can't be regarded as anything else .... for now! But that's not to say I won't be found to be totally wrong about it. And nobody will be happier than me the day they find a door in the side of the Face or a staircase leading up its side!!
Am I forgiven, GOM ?!!

GOM · 2002-05-09 01:58:12

Carl Sagan, a man I admired very much, taught us that we owe it to ourselves to be sceptical because it's just too easy to become victims of deception; whether others deceive us or we save them the trouble and deceive ourselves! He was right, you know; a person will believe pretty much anything they want to believe.

Good. You admired Sagan. He realized Mars needed exploration. We're getting there, slowly.

You imply that I am a victim of deception, either by others or by myself. I don't appreciate that. I am very skeptical about many things. There is a huge difference between a skeptic and a debunker, as I'm sure you know.

The fact is, I wish there was no gigantic Face and no 5-sided pyramid at Cydonia. It makes my life more complicated. But, in spite of my wishes, obviously they are there. And also very obviously "someone" does not want us to pay attention to them right now. You can embrace, or even push, the silly mainstream denial if you wish. I make up my own mind.

Btw, there are many layers of deception in this whole Mars story. Remember that....

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-11 00:38:13

This is crazy! It seems I've succeeded in insulting GOM again without the slightest intention of doing so!
If this is the case, then I apologise .... I honestly didn't mean to do it.
I have often thought about the possibility of some sort of cover-up by NASA and others. If you read some of the stuff on the Enterprise Mission website, you really can't help but wonder. And in my darker moments, as I have freely confessed elsewhere in New Mars, I have seriously considered that NASA must be deliberately putting obstacles in the way of Mars exploration for its own clandestine reasons. How else could they get to the Moon in 7 years and yet take 40 (...50 ... 60 ... ? ) years to reach Mars? It seems every time you read a press release from the powers that be, they've found a new reason to delay everything for a few more years.
I have "The Monuments of Mars" on my bookshelf, and other titles which I think might surprise you, GOM. I doubt there's a conspiracy theory in circulation that I haven't read about and pondered.
Maybe you're absolutely right. Maybe there is a multi-layered deception going on here and I'm one of its most gullible victims. But the idea of alien constructions on Mars is just so big, I can't allow myself to believe it without more hard evidence.
If that's what "they" want me to think .... then I suppose they've succeeded!

Christina · 2002-05-11 01:41:56

Okay, it's very early morning and I'm gazing blearily at the monitor, but what pyramids?

I can't tell if they are indentations or superstructure from that picture. Yes, I'm not trained in interpreting these photos, but it is very ambiguous. And naturally formed IMO

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-11 03:57:53

Hi Christina!

I'd remind you that the above photo is from a source that GOM would undoubtedly believe to be on the "inside" of the conspiracy...so, as evidence, it is basically unusable, and any conclusions drawn from it are suspect at best.

Someone remind me never to discuss religion on this BBS...

RobS · 2002-05-11 22:35:55

Pyramid-shaped mountains are not hard to create naturally. Faults tend to cut bedrock into straight surfaces, and erosion tends to follow fault lines because that's where the rock is weak. Prevailing winds can facet natural surfaces as well. In the desert one can find "ventifacts," which are rocks with flat surfaces. The flat surface forms on the upwind side of the rock where windblown sand causes abrasion. If the rock gets rotated somehow, it can have two or three facets. A change in the direction of the prevailing wind (seasonally or from climatic change) can do the same thing to a mountain.

These processes do not produce smooth surfaces, like a classic pyramid. But poor resolution can make a bumpy surface look smooth.

As for the face, I don't know anyone in planetary science who takes it seriously as a possibly artificial structure. At other lighting angles it does not look like a face at all. It's a bumpy, complex mountain surface that at the right angle looks like a face, just like the "Old Man of the Mountain" in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. You have to stand in exactly the right place on the highway to see the Old Man of the Mountain; walk fifty feet up or down the road and the side of the mountain looks rough and random. It's a big tourist attraction.

--RobS

GOM · 2002-05-12 12:46:25

Pyramid-shaped mountains are not hard to create naturally.

Indeed.

Got any links to any five-sided "pyramid/mountains" on Earth that were created by the method you describe?

GOM · 2002-05-12 13:00:17

1. I have often thought about the possibility of some sort of cover-up by NASA and others.
2. Maybe you're absolutely right. Maybe there is a multi-layered deception going on here and I'm one of its most gullible victims.
3. But the idea of alien constructions on Mars is just so big, I can't allow myself to believe it without more hard evidence.

1. That's smart. Who exactly do you think is in charge?

2. I highly doubt you are a gullible victim.

3. Big enough to scare some people? When exactly do you think you will have hard evidence? When a man walks on Mars? That won't be very soon. The way things are (not) progressing, I doubt it will be within my lifetime.

Btw, just to clarify one point since you seem to be such a cheerful debunker. I don't recall ever saying that it was "alien construction" on Mars. It does not seem like a phrase I would use. You see, I do not believe in aliens. According to surveys of the American public, I am in the minority. I believe accepting "aliens" is part of the long-term conditioning we have been put through for roughly the past 50 years.

HTH

GOM · 2002-05-12 13:10:04

Someone remind me never to discuss religion on this BBS...

What? And miss out on all the fun!

GOM · 2002-05-12 13:26:27

I'd remind you that the above photo is from a source that GOM would undoubtedly believe to be on the "inside" of the conspiracy...so, as evidence, it is basically unusable, and any conclusions drawn from it are suspect at best.

LOL

That's the best spin I've ever heard on Mars!

Throw out ALL the evidence and hope nobody notices....

Pretty funny stuff!

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-13 06:44:28

Hi GOM! Responding:-

1. "That's smart" ..... Come now, GOM, sarcasm is the lowest
form of wit, they tell me! You can do better than that.
I said I've thought about the possibility of a cover up.
That's quite a ways from saying there is a cover up and
even further from deciding who's in charge!
But there are people who are solidly convinced that the
Masonic Order is somehow up to its armpits in it. (I'm not
convinced, though I've heard that every last U.S.
President has been a Mason. Is that true? And why is
there an egyptian obelisk in Washington DC? It's all fuel for
cospiracists, I suppose. )

2. "I highly doubt you are a gullible victim" almost sounds like
you think I'm somehow part of the "cover up"! Flattering
but not true, unfortunately. (If there's something going on,
I'd love to know what it is! ) No. .... I'm quite
serious about being a gullible victim. I've seen movies and
read books describing webs of disinformation so intricate
that I'm convinced, if a government had a secret, it could
tie us up in so many lies we wouldn't know what to
believe! If you were to dwell on this stuff too long, it
would drive you crazy; for every dozen conspiracy books
there are a dozen different conspiracies. On May 9th, you
said, with what I took as a disparaging glance in my
direction, "I make up my own mind". But remember, you're
only making up your mind using information somebody has
fed you. Same as me! We're all in the same boat doing our
best to make sense of everything.

3. I don't know if anyone would be seriously disturbed or
scared by irrefutable evidence of buildings or carvings etc.
on Mars. (I'm quite at home with the idea ... wouldn't
phase me at all.) Many of my acquaintances, who know
nothing about anything higher than the cruising altitude of
a 747, would be stunned, I think. Some of them would
probably not believe it. Some, I often think, are quite
incapable of assimilating such information at all, and would
contrive to ignore it completely!
I don't know when we'll have hard evidence, if there's any
to be had, but you must surely know from my other posts
that I wholeheartedly share your obvious impatience at
NASA's painful procrastination. Believe it or not, we're on
the same side; at least as far as that's concerned!

Nobody's ever called me a cheerful debunker before! :0 . I don't know whether I've been complimented or insulted! I only know of a few suggestions as to who is supposed to have carved the Face on Mars :-
a) Indigenous martians, now extinct or living underground due
to an environmental catastrophe.
b) A race from another star system who left it as a message
for the developing human species on the next planet (us).
c) People from Earth who achieved high technology millenia
ago (maybe Atlanteans or some such) and whose history
has been lost to us.
d) Inhabitants of a tenth solar planet whose highly elliptical
orbit brings it to the inner solar system every few thousand
years. These aliens, according to the story, have interfered
in Earth's history also and were the "gods" of egyptian
history.
I'm sure these four theories do not exhaust the collection. There are probably people who think it's all the work of demons, but that's really getting out to the fringe and I'd rather not go there!
What's your angle on all this, GOM? You've got me curious.
:0

GOM · 2002-05-13 09:53:53

You win. It's a pile of rocks. Merely tricks of light and shadow....

Might as well save the money and stay home where it's warm, safe and comfortable.

Keep smiling.

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#1 2002-04-17 10:40:55

Re: Space Command - Space Command

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