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#1 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2008-03-20 12:44:07
For those that have a vehicle registered as of Feb 1,University Rover Challenge
The Challenge:
For the second year, teams of university students will design and build the next generation of Mars rovers.
June 5-7, 2008 the teams and their rovers will face off at the Mars Desert Research Station in Utah.The Prize:
The winning team will win transportation, lodging and admission for 5 team members to the
11th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Boulder, CO August 14-17, 2008, and large cash prizes.
damn, wish i knew about this sooner... not that i'm in a university currently...
i'm still working on the frame for my test vehicle so i wont have the time to get it all finished by then yet.
#2 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2008-01-14 11:20:55
I've been thinking about something for a while now. Hopefully in the near future I'll have the time to figure out if its feasible and economic. If so I hope to build a prototype.
Thanks for the bump, ill be testing out my motor in my race car to see how it works for prolonged use.
#3 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2008-01-13 09:56:59
After pouring back through the old posts, it seems that Robert Dyck's proposal of PCTFE for greenhouse material is the best bet. But it still seems than a PCTFE greenhouse would get cooked by UV radiation. The UV coatings are metals and eliminate the transparency for visible light as well. Am I correct in this? Are there any plastics which block UV, while allowing visible and infrared? It sounds like Kevlar does, but in so doing it breaks down rapidly.
If not, does anyone have information on the UV resistance of glass?
why worry about that? why not just ship over bulbs for planting... its prooven to work, so why not use it? besides you can keep the plants on any kind of schedule you want then instead of a specific one. mars based. and as for the exterior paneling you can use what ever you want instead of a transparent one.
#4 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2008-01-12 09:47:53
Steel is magnetic. It's iron that isn't. You can use an Iron core to increase the magnetism of an EM, but ifyou use a steel one it [the core] remains magnetised.
steel is not naturally magnetic. how ever it CAN be magnetized. if we are to magnetize steel i believe we are better off doing it here then shipping parts off to there....
I still dont think a rail system would be best for say the first 5+ years of being there on mars even with about 100-200 people there.
our best bet on that planet is something a bit more flexible like different sized purpose built cars.
as far as power, dont worry i'll be releasing some info on my company this comming year hopefully about what can and more than likely will power everything out there on site.
#5 Re: Interplanetary transportation » You're all to Mars-centered!!!!!! » 2008-01-04 14:56:22
And would the astronauts be alive when they got there 9 times in 10?
Nothing worse for NASA than their first mission past leo in 40 years arriving...with nobody on it alive
if they can do it multiple times before on old technology with what i'm positive was a LOT less of a budget... why cant they send an automated ship to go there and land and be a "base camp" then send the guys there when things are ready for them? all for the same or less money...
#6 Re: Interplanetary transportation » You're all to Mars-centered!!!!!! » 2008-01-04 09:07:16
I also think we should establish a little test station on the moon before we do anything on mars... it would prepare us for anything we have ready to go out there. and its less than 1/16 the distance away. in all honesty its about time to step this up and have private companys start helping out in funding stuff for this. if they do they can get their foot in the door and get ready for the explosion about to happen in the space industry.
That's the plan Dragoneye. Work on the Lunar Outpost has started, with more funding people could be living there in ten years from now.
The nearest Mars gets to Earth is about 55 million kilometers; the Moon is 0.38 million kms away. So the Moon is 1/145 of the shortest distance to Mars. Because of the orbit geometry Mars is sometimes 400 million kilometers away from Earth!
if i had 1/8 the budget and team size nasa had i could get a place on the moon in 5 years from now easily... drives me nuts how much they think it costs to do something...
#7 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2008-01-03 13:26:22
If power isn't an issue then i'd suggest a nice sized hydroponics system in place would be a HUGE bennifit to the mars team. they can get water from the ice on the planet for water systems (cut out huge chunks and purify them as they melt) and then keep it under close eye... once you have plants setup to grow there then you'll have a STRONG food base. and anything that goes bad put it in a tank for a "compost pile" and collect the gasses to produce methane and the soil for later planting other forms of vegitation.
it wouldn't be teribly hard to be able to set up a bit station with make shift panels made there on the surface its self. so everything should be taken care of decently easily.
#8 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2008-01-03 10:58:22
I probably will need help. I've loads of ideas that would make excellent inventions that would revouloutionise Humanities standered of living (well maybe not standerd of living but, what's the term for like when people in one country have a computer whereas people in another don't?).
What's your company called?
PMed you. you should have a messege
#9 Re: Interplanetary transportation » You're all to Mars-centered!!!!!! » 2008-01-03 10:54:19
I also think we should establish a little test station on the moon before we do anything on mars... it would prepare us for anything we have ready to go out there. and its less than 1/16 the distance away. in all honesty its about time to step this up and have private companys start helping out in funding stuff for this. if they do they can get their foot in the door and get ready for the explosion about to happen in the space industry.
as soon as we start tapping into the vast rescources of space, then the human race will be going nuts with exploration, development, breakthroughs in sience, ect.
heck the astroids out there have enough material to produce LARGE quantities of metals for us to build bigger and better ships for cheaper and faster. not to mention its WAY safer and faster to mine an individual astroid than it is to mine underground somewhere...
#10 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2008-01-03 09:48:03
Which one are you entering?
I would like to start up my own R & D team, so I've been looking at the X-Prizes for things to enter. I'm only 13.5, but who said there had to be an age limit for inventors and scientists? I think I've cracked the problem of how to build a hoverboard/car. Efficiently, that is.
i'm working on automotive x-prize
i've been working on my motor for 10 years and im 23 now... so i was the same age as you i also think there is no such thing as an age limit to a good idea... if you need any help let me know. I'm starting up a company based on these motors and i wanna help startup inventors.
#11 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2008-01-03 08:08:17
Your comment on not worrying about power has me curious. Is your company about to announce the development of mobile fusion power plants?
better. its still under heavy development it wont produce as much power as a fusion power plant per size, BUT it will power as long as one. I'm developing it for earth use too. its completely green power and COMPLETELY renewable (but doesn't need fuel) i know i'm probably throwing you for a loop right now, but i'm keeping things closed tightly about the design/specific use for the time being since it is possibly going to be a big part of the x-prize contest comming up 
#12 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-28 08:55:34
What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?
i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily
I am curious to see your "polished" proposal for melting roads.
Dragoneye wrote:
wrote:and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.
Well, the highest recorded wind speeds I found were 250 mph, and these were in the upper atmosphere, screaming off the poles in the Spring. If we design for 200 mph surface winds that should be plenty, I think. However, currently the Martian atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as Earth's and so has that much less punch. On the other hand, things weigh 2/3rds less.
When analyzing the potential of windmills on Mars, Zubrin calculates that a 60 mph (30 m/s) wind would generate the equivalent force of a 12 mph (6 m/s) wind on Earth. This is a ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore a 200 mph wind on Mars would be roughly equivalent to a 40 mph wind on Earth.
My conclusion is that the equivalent of a 40 mph terrestrial windstorm would pose less of a threat to a surface rover than the darkness of heavy dust conditions. BUT, this is true while the atmosphere is at 1 millibar. If we double the atmospheric pressure than this would dramatically increase the power of the wind. (Would it exactly double?) So, I think your idea of sequestered roads are increasingly relevent as terraforming progresses.
The most likely scenario for a future Mars society will be a combination of various road and railroad structures. The Dragoneye Iron Roads would first be built in high priority routes, say between two close bases. However, unless it's much easier to build these roads than I expect, the raised roadbeds would be an important component of the transportation network and simple jeep tracks would still have value for low priority pathways.
Hmm. I wonder if canals would be feasible? Perhaps a long 1-2 mm thick polyethylene tube 10 m (or even 5 m?) in diameter could be laid over long flat surfaces such as the northern plains and covered with a a thin layer of soil. Fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full of water and send narrow barges through, one direction at a time. Ships on Mars would have a ridiculously shallow draft and the barges could carry suprisingly large amounts of cargo. Water transport is by far the cheapest transport method on Earth. Anything that can go by ship goes by ship.
as far as the water transportation... its super cheap here on earth because the "ground work" is already done... and you dont need to do anything to get it going just have a ship drive it there on water... to get water there you would neeed to melt ice caps on the planet... I wouldn't do that seeing as water is a HIGHLY valuable comodity....it would be cheaper i think to "melt" cheap tracks or guides to be able to drive things arround... and since we dont have to worry about power since i have that part figured out (literally we dont need to worry about power)
the biggest thing we need to do there on the planet is get plant life introduced, and get water to water them.... once we do that we can derive plastics and other resources we can use to build and construct things there with so we aren't dependent on long durration trips from earth for supplies... I really do think that a major requirement for us to be getting to mars and sticking arround there for some time we need robots to help do lots of things for us...
I know i'm getting off topic with roads... but roads are all stemed off other things.... i dont feel exploration of the planet is our biggest thing off the bat.. and to do that we would be getting off focus.. our biggest thing is establishing a presence there.
#13 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-23 09:26:31
What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?
i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily
#14 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2007-12-21 16:31:02
ok, after alot of work on the motors it looks like they wont take up 1/2 the space i thought they would... i'll be able to fit everything in a much smaller compartment and we'll have WAY more room for anything we want to do in there.
#15 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-21 13:07:07
its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)
as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.
Yesterday I was reading that most rock on Mars is basaltic in composition and most of the soil is decomposed basalt. The ultra-fine dust that coats everything is a majority hematite so this would be useful. In another thread someone mentioned that the soil itself generally contains "near ore-grade" levels of iron. However, areas of "dark soil" on Mars do not (if I remember correctly) have so much iron. However, let's presume that such a "sheet smelter" begins to make sheilds for the trench road that is excavated by another machine/robot. How would you power your excavators? How big would they be?
On the other hand, I still like the idea of rock or iron paved raised roads as I think a rover could drive through a major storm, although night driving will always be slower I suspect.
Also, would you lean the iron sides into each other to form a "roof"?
yes i couldn't show it with the letters and symbols here on the keyboard, but yea it would have a flat roof maybe even use the roof as your "paved road".
as far as what its powered by... dont worry about that i have that figured out, you'll see in the next year or so when I accumilate some more money through my company for that. i have all the power production for mars already figured out.
and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.
#16 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-21 08:29:45
Dragoneye wrote:
we are almost better off building slightly under the surface
What do you mean by "slightly'? Perhaps the rule of thumb that would guide these roads would be that they are covered and sequestered from the environment.
I will also reveal a prejudice of mine - I am skeptical of robots/automation. With all the variability of soil and bedrock landforms I think a human presence will be continually needed. (Also note my last post on "Trains of Mars".)
I think your idea of an enclosed or even subterranean road/railway is feasible, but it will require a lot of work. I think the elevated train idea would be easier to build and (maybe) easier to maintain. But I think roads will be useful for rover/truck style movement of people.Let's say we have two bases to connect that lie 10 km apart. What do you think about a raised roadbed? Maybe 10m across and 1 m high? This would likely keep rocks off the road and the fine dust would not necessary be inhibitive although I could see it piling up along the sides.
How could we build this? I like your idea of a metal plated road. How much iron could realistically be smelted from the surrounding regolith and how thin could this layer be?
i like the idea of a raised road, i REALLY do, BUT under storm situations say you want to get to one base or god forbid there is an emergency... they need access 24/7 no matter the situation from one to the other.
by slightly under ground i mean digging a trench maybe 2-3' deep (shouldn't be that hard other than any type of rock there) and then take the soil collected and melt it down into iron slabs 1" thick (remember things aren't as heavy there) and then have it be shaped over the trench like this /---\ so you can then pile rocks/dirt along the outside to help protect the surface of the metal (from storms and flying debris)
its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)
as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.
with reguards to the robots/automation... i'm not suggesting an AI type of robot, but more of a C&C machine if you know what those are. humans stake off the work area with sensors... then on a computer they map it out as the 4 points and limits of where the robots work, then they draw out on the computer what they want and where, and from there robots (basicly think big street paving machine/snow blower) go through and gather and move surface soil up and over into a bank. pretty straight foward.
#17 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-20 11:23:24
Ok, but how would we build roads on this site near "Home Plate" :
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … 26R0M1.JPG
Lot's of loose scree in this photo that would certainly blow back across a constructed road surface. A question I have is how big of rocks can a large dust storm move across the surface? If we clear a path of rocks larger than would be returned by the storms, then some progress is made right? Would that be enough for our purposes? I don't see anything in this image that a Jeep couldn't handle. What did Martian Republic mean byActually, just grading it and then using the small rocks to make a rock road system would be adequate
?
Curious to see what you think too, Dragoneye.
thats exactly what i was thinking... and as far as a big storm moving size capable rocks.. i'd immagine theyd be up to about 2-3' in diameter... being able to be moved...
in all honesty... like i said.. we are almost better off building slightly under the surface... to build roads going places... the soil there is VERY iron rich (hence the red in the soil) so that would be easy to scoop soil then turn into iron slabs so that right there would REALLY help building things like a covered driving area or something close to it thus not having to worry about any storms at all... you could drive right through them.
the planet is SO and open that having robots do the work would make everything much easier... automated processes doing everything with humans to oversee everything. mining the ore for the driving ways and so on.
the reason i'm suggesting something more permanant on the surface is because if we have ANY intention of wanting to stick arround on that planet for some time... we will need interconnecting pathways from one "city" to the next... and it would be REALLY nice to get the infastructure there BEFORE having to tear something down and rebuild it.
Robotics has advanced leaps and bounds over the last few years that by the time we get out there i dont see why we couldn't have simple robots to even simply produce the products and then have humans (3-4 on the planet (suggesting a minimum) actually go out there and assemble the parts and peices.. and make everything modular so its VERY easy to lay and adjust. do it all with heavy enclosed equiptment (almost like tunel projects but WAY easier)
I have many ideas for mars... but our best bet at a proper setup for inhabitents to stick arround there for anything more than 1-2 months would be for something or someone to go there and work on the stuff for them...
in all honesty... send over some simple robots now, have them clear off big areas for a runway or something similar and have another set start digging and moving rubble so that we can have an underground base there. (WAY more protected from the storms simply 10 feet underground)
there are SO manythings that can be done to take care of things... its just simply a matter of taking the time and energy to fully think it out.
#18 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-19 20:53:23
But, this would be a much later project to do down the road some time.
Pun intended?
nice 
as far as a road system...
i wouldn't even deal with paving anything (even in terms of simple paving...)
I would use robots to clear paths.. but we would need some GPS presence there so we could locate things there easier and plot maps better...
as soon as i get home from shopping i'll go in more detail.
#19 Re: Planetary transportation » Rover launch vehicle » 2007-11-08 23:56:44
ok, after reviewing the existing ships diameters and sizes and all that, it looks like i have the final measurements of everything. it looks like the standard diameter to use for tossing stuff into space is about 14' and i'm making the vehicle just over 8' in diameter (100") so we have lots of room we can use in that extra space for storage. (materials, rations, building equiptment, ect.)
length wise it looks like we will be pushing it a bit with an extra 10' because usually they are only about 30 or so feet long but i'm going for an even 40' long rover. I want to keep the vehicle on comparison to standard earth busses. (practicality)
in flight the wheels will NOT be attatched to the vehicle but when the vehicle lands it will unroll and the rover will be proped up to easily attatch the wheels and once thats finished, the motors will be started up and it is on its way. I'm still working on the layout of the parts and peices but i have a good idea how it will be setup. I'll get sketches on here asap. i'm working on the design layout right now.
#20 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Magnetic Acceleration Rings » 2007-11-08 17:41:27
Methane does not burn in space.
Most methane burned on Earth comes from underground, and it is a nasty greenhouse gas.
you dont need to burn it.. you can use it as propellant and what does it matter using a greenhouse gas on mars? a small settlment on a planet of about 10 people tops isn't going to make all that large of a difference...
its like saying a small group of eskimos in the north pole region are causing a global problem.... just not gonna happen.
#21 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-11-08 17:35:57
i dont want to sound like i'm trying to counter what you guys are suggesting and all, BUT the storms on the martian surface are not really a joking manner... the way i look at it is the whole surface for the most part is a giant desert... and the giant storms they have there is essentially a mix of a hurricane and a HUGE sand storm...
if we make roads, its a 90% possibility that they will get covered with any type of large storm and have debris all over them (including larger rocks)
this is why i want to currently avoid the ideas of anything permanant unless its SERIOUSLY strong or subteranian.
I dont know how deep they've done core samples on the planet (cant immagine anything more than about 10 feet or so) but i'd be really intrested in doing something under ground (might be more expensive but better for the long run?)
otherwise on the surface it seems like we will be better off having a train type of setup thats a base and all mobile via wheels and a "plow" at the front to move anything that would obstruct the wheels (nothing insane sized just smaller rocks/bolders)
it wouldn't be hard to employ an auto system for the vehicle to drive its self even seeing as we've got them already in strong development (check out the manless races they have going...) and just point and click where you want to go and the rover could drive you there the best route with out much of a problem. and more over just avoid the storms all together until you decided on something completely permanent...
#22 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2007-11-08 17:23:32
I think I may have found a solution to the whole problem we are facing here.
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/167126main_Tran … istics.pdf
You will have to download the pdf file but its worth it. I would make a folder called D & D Rover Project ( Dragoneye and Dryson Enterprises)
put the pdf in there and go from there.If you look at the MPLM and the particulars we may have a potential winner. I like the interior size and the length. Two of these MPLM's docked together would give the crew more then enough area to house some racks for sack time, research, comm, medical ,waste management and more then enough storage space.
very nice, yea it would be nice to be able to simply send it up there in parts then assemble it on the surface there along with alot of spare parts so if anything breaks then your still fine and you know how its assembled.
#23 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2007-11-08 16:42:48
so lets figure the vehicle at 20,000 lbs to be on the safe side for the time being.
wow thats alot... i designed the frame to be light weight... i couldn't see it weighing a total weight over 10,000lbs tops...
#24 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Magnetic Acceleration Rings » 2007-11-08 11:45:25
A mass driver is only a small piece of the puzzle. I think the Moon would be a good place to test such a device. If the ore can't be processed, it can at least be used as reaction mass for asteroid missions. I think we need to do some ore processing however. We are not going to stay in the infancy of the space age forever, yet too many people act as if we are. I think the high price of oil may help. There was an article in Space.com about how Solar Power Satellites would be useful in powering Military installations. I'd say find a nitch for SPS's construct them in orbit, and then try to improve them using local materials utilization. Some advances have been made in light weight Solar panels recently. Lets try to build one, see how that goes. Another use would be to power a Mars Base. If we can place an SPS in Mars orbit, it can provide 24 hour power to a Mars base both day and night. Sure beats nukes, I mean what are you going to do with the radioactive waste? SPSs are much safer.
there are other ways to power places with out even needing sun or anything else complicated also. heck they could do it solely based on waste products... like for example methane and burning it... they have 100's of ways of having renewable energy pretty easily. just a matter of being a bit injinuitive and actually doing it.
#25 Re: Planetary transportation » Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars- » 2007-11-08 10:21:04
for the motor, figure about 20lbs each and there are about 1/3 of the vehicle is designated to motors (my custom designed motors) so figure about 13-14 motors on there. so thats roughly 280lbs
the frame could be done out of composits if need be (much lighter and could be almost as strong as the other meathod) i'll figure on the heavy side that each main ring will weigh 25lbs and i'll have it spaced about 1 every foot for the length of the vehicle (i'm going over board here on the weight but i want to make sure to have plenty extra for payload) so that comes out to 1,000lbs, we'll up that to about 1,300 for misc suspension bracing, and any other kind of strange thing to come up.
suspension usually weighs a lot so i'll say about another 200lbs
wheels are much larger than the average car (40lbs with tire and wheel typically) so well go with 3-4 x what that weight is and thats about 150 each but my wheels will weigh a lot less with new design principals in it (need big wheels for scaling over rocks with less problems and to increase clearance) so 300lbs for all 4
electrical motors to drive the vehicle (all wheel drive) figure another 150lbs each +600lbs
after that its all drive components but it would be all done by wire so i'll say another 300lbs in computers and sensors
equiptment payload another 800lbs
shell/body will be alot too so add about 600lbs
so far we are at 4,080lbs. which isn't too bad considering its an enclosed transport.
Oaky lets slow do and start doing the number crunching on the rover.
First we will need to know the weight of each major component.
major components would be:
1.The engine block
2.Axles and Tires (would also include shocks, struts or other cushioning
system)
2a.For the shock absorbtion system I have a theoretical design
that uses magnets. That can be discussed later on if warranted.
3.The structural tubing (interior frame)
4.Hull plating (exterior covering)
4a. The mathametical calculations will be failry easy once a
determination has been made on how thick the tubing and hull will be
along with the length of each individual tubing and what each hull
plating will be.secondary components would be:
1.Crew compartment - To make life simpler, the design I suggest using
is the the new Orion model [url]
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/const … rion_contr
act_images.html[/url]. This model when reconfigured to accomodate four
naughts instead of six would make one of the most important parts of the rover complete without having to even brainstorm to much.
2. EVA suit up area - If we look at the foreward section of the Orion we
can see the EVA hatch. A similiar set-up would be used for this design
since the design has already been proven to work and not much re-
work would be involved in placing it in another location.tertiary components would be:
1.Life system system including computer operating systems and
ventilation (circulation to keep the atmosphere fresh and not stale)2.Comm system including wiring paths and antenneas
3.Waste management system for a three day venture ( I would just step
outside and go, but this system wouldnt be very applicable for the
female naught as there are not any bushes. anyway)This should maybe take a year or so to complete once we sit down and
start compiling the data.I have starter another post called ROVER LAUNCH VEHICLE.
This post will be in conjuction with the Rover Vehicle.