Roads on Mars

dryson · 2007-11-07 21:30:38

Terraformer posted this : Has anyone considered a vehicle that would glassify the Martian surface? It could first be sent as a probe and would build roads and a landing strip for the astronouts. It could be sent to sites of interest and the crew could just drive along the road. If it isn't to slippy.

Well Terraformer I would suggest designing a robotic package of maybe four robots that would employ a blade type system to move the smaller rubble out of the way. For larger objects of maybe 200 lbs or larger we would for the time being have to go around them, unless a way could be found to use the four robots to move the rock out of the way.

A team should be comprised to decide where a suitable base would be at.
Why is this area to be used as a base? (this should be based on what we want the naughts to accomplish, survey of a particular area, esatblishing a base of operations, or drilling beneath the surface.)

Once decided maps of the area which can be obtained via nasa should be looked at to determine where the least amount of large objects are located and where the easiest places for roads to built would be located at.
Get back to either Dragoneye or Myself with this information.

Antius · 2007-11-08 06:07:03

Terraformer posted this : Has anyone considered a vehicle that would glassify the Martian surface? It could first be sent as a probe and would build roads and a landing strip for the astronouts. It could be sent to sites of interest and the crew could just drive along the road. If it isn't to slippy.
Well Terraformer I would suggest designing a robotic package of maybe four robots that would employ a blade type system to move the smaller rubble out of the way. For larger objects of maybe 200 lbs or larger we would for the time being have to go around them, unless a way could be found to use the four robots to move the rock out of the way.
A team should be comprised to decide where a suitable base would be at.
Why is this area to be used as a base? (this should be based on what we want the naughts to accomplish, survey of a particular area, esatblishing a base of operations, or drilling beneath the surface.)
Once decided maps of the area which can be obtained via nasa should be looked at to determine where the least amount of large objects are located and where the easiest places for roads to built would be located at.
Get back to either Dragoneye or Myself with this information.

I like the idea of roads. Much of the martian surfcae is composed of clay-like compounds, which could be used to form a stable, load bearing base, upon which sintered blocks would form an eccelent road surface.

Roads could also be electrified in much the same way as railways. A live rail could be embedded within the road and vehicles could pickup power using a spring loaded shoe. This is likely to be far more energy efficient than trying to synthesise synthetic fuel from electricity. A conductive transfer system could provide a mains to wheel efficiency as high as 80%. The vehicles would 'earth' through the surface of the road, which would be made conductive by including graphite particles and aluminium fibres within the sintered blocks.

As more roads were constructed, wind turbines and solar arrays could be built along the wayside, along with flywheel energy storage devices, powering the roadway.

dryson · 2007-11-08 16:41:39

Those are all very good ideas, but we have to clear the roadway surface before laying any raillines. What are some ideas to remove the rocks and boulders out of the way? Is there a way to then pack down the surface to make the road a hard enough surface to easily run at around 40 mph on?

Dragoneye · 2007-11-08 17:35:57

i dont want to sound like i'm trying to counter what you guys are suggesting and all, BUT the storms on the martian surface are not really a joking manner... the way i look at it is the whole surface for the most part is a giant desert... and the giant storms they have there is essentially a mix of a hurricane and a HUGE sand storm...

if we make roads, its a 90% possibility that they will get covered with any type of large storm and have debris all over them (including larger rocks)

this is why i want to currently avoid the ideas of anything permanant unless its SERIOUSLY strong or subteranian.

I dont know how deep they've done core samples on the planet (cant immagine anything more than about 10 feet or so) but i'd be really intrested in doing something under ground (might be more expensive but better for the long run?)

otherwise on the surface it seems like we will be better off having a train type of setup thats a base and all mobile via wheels and a "plow" at the front to move anything that would obstruct the wheels (nothing insane sized just smaller rocks/bolders)

it wouldn't be hard to employ an auto system for the vehicle to drive its self even seeing as we've got them already in strong development (check out the manless races they have going...) and just point and click where you want to go and the rover could drive you there the best route with out much of a problem. and more over just avoid the storms all together until you decided on something completely permanent...

dryson · 2007-11-09 17:03:38

What I was thinking for the roads would involve a team of robots that would go first remove any small to medium debris. The larger debris would then be removed by using the four robots to collectively move the larger debris. After this has been accomplished the robots would then have their blades removed and heavy packer drums installed. These drums would be solid steel and weight around 400 lbs each. The robots would then pack the surface down until it was flat. If a storm were to tear the roadway up the robots would be redeployed ,fix the damage and then return to their storage bay.

The roads on Mars wouldn't be paved like they are here on Earth, there wouldn't be a need to pave them.

This is what is needed:

A robot that can employ a blade to push the smaller debris out of the way.
A robot that can empoy a roller of 400 lbs
The above system must be interchangeable

The robot must have a robotic arm to aid in the removal of debris

Please submit all ideas here or send them to me at dryson@hotmail.com

Terraformer · 2007-11-24 08:51:56

You forgot a vacuum cleaner like attachment for the dust with throwaway filters. They'd get clogged up then are thrown away.

Martian Republic · 2007-11-24 10:32:05

Actually, just grading it and then using the small rocks to make a rock road system would be adequate to serve the job that your talking about. You can go about 40 miles an hour or so on such a road. Every so often you could grade it or service that road or road system that you have. It makes a good hard surface to drive on without being overly labor intensive or material intensive to build or maintain. It also gives you a good foundation for the road your building.

If later on you want to pave that road, then just pour concrete over the top of that gravel road and the job done. But, this would be a much later project to do down the road some time.

Larry,

Terraformer · 2007-11-24 16:36:03

But, this would be a much later project to do down the road some time.

Pun intended?

Dragoneye · 2007-12-19 20:53:23

But, this would be a much later project to do down the road some time.
Pun intended?

nice

as far as a road system...

i wouldn't even deal with paving anything (even in terms of simple paving...)

I would use robots to clear paths.. but we would need some GPS presence there so we could locate things there easier and plot maps better...

as soon as i get home from shopping i'll go in more detail.

MarsRefresh · 2007-12-20 09:53:24

Ok, but how would we build roads on this site near "Home Plate" :
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … 26R0M1.JPG
Lot's of loose scree in this photo that would certainly blow back across a constructed road surface. A question I have is how big of rocks can a large dust storm move across the surface? If we clear a path of rocks larger than would be returned by the storms, then some progress is made right? Would that be enough for our purposes? I don't see anything in this image that a Jeep couldn't handle. What did Martian Republic mean by

Actually, just grading it and then using the small rocks to make a rock road system would be adequate

?

Curious to see what you think too, Dragoneye.

Dragoneye · 2007-12-20 11:23:24

Ok, but how would we build roads on this site near "Home Plate" :
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit … 26R0M1.JPG
Lot's of loose scree in this photo that would certainly blow back across a constructed road surface. A question I have is how big of rocks can a large dust storm move across the surface? If we clear a path of rocks larger than would be returned by the storms, then some progress is made right? Would that be enough for our purposes? I don't see anything in this image that a Jeep couldn't handle. What did Martian Republic mean by
Actually, just grading it and then using the small rocks to make a rock road system would be adequate
?
Curious to see what you think too, Dragoneye.

thats exactly what i was thinking... and as far as a big storm moving size capable rocks.. i'd immagine theyd be up to about 2-3' in diameter... being able to be moved...

in all honesty... like i said.. we are almost better off building slightly under the surface... to build roads going places... the soil there is VERY iron rich (hence the red in the soil) so that would be easy to scoop soil then turn into iron slabs so that right there would REALLY help building things like a covered driving area or something close to it thus not having to worry about any storms at all... you could drive right through them.

the planet is SO and open that having robots do the work would make everything much easier... automated processes doing everything with humans to oversee everything. mining the ore for the driving ways and so on.

the reason i'm suggesting something more permanant on the surface is because if we have ANY intention of wanting to stick arround on that planet for some time... we will need interconnecting pathways from one "city" to the next... and it would be REALLY nice to get the infastructure there BEFORE having to tear something down and rebuild it.

Robotics has advanced leaps and bounds over the last few years that by the time we get out there i dont see why we couldn't have simple robots to even simply produce the products and then have humans (3-4 on the planet (suggesting a minimum) actually go out there and assemble the parts and peices.. and make everything modular so its VERY easy to lay and adjust. do it all with heavy enclosed equiptment (almost like tunel projects but WAY easier)

I have many ideas for mars... but our best bet at a proper setup for inhabitents to stick arround there for anything more than 1-2 months would be for something or someone to go there and work on the stuff for them...

in all honesty... send over some simple robots now, have them clear off big areas for a runway or something similar and have another set start digging and moving rubble so that we can have an underground base there. (WAY more protected from the storms simply 10 feet underground)

there are SO manythings that can be done to take care of things... its just simply a matter of taking the time and energy to fully think it out.

MarsRefresh · 2007-12-20 22:42:24

Dragoneye wrote:

we are almost better off building slightly under the surface

What do you mean by "slightly'? Perhaps the rule of thumb that would guide these roads would be that they are covered and sequestered from the environment.

I will also reveal a prejudice of mine - I am skeptical of robots/automation. With all the variability of soil and bedrock landforms I think a human presence will be continually needed. (Also note my last post on "Trains of Mars".)
I think your idea of an enclosed or even subterranean road/railway is feasible, but it will require a lot of work. I think the elevated train idea would be easier to build and (maybe) easier to maintain. But I think roads will be useful for rover/truck style movement of people.

Let's say we have two bases to connect that lie 10 km apart. What do you think about a raised roadbed? Maybe 10m across and 1 m high? This would likely keep rocks off the road and the fine dust would not necessary be inhibitive although I could see it piling up along the sides.

How could we build this? I like your idea of a metal plated road. How much iron could realistically be smelted from the surrounding regolith and how thin could this layer be?

Dragoneye · 2007-12-21 08:29:45

Dragoneye wrote:
we are almost better off building slightly under the surface
What do you mean by "slightly'? Perhaps the rule of thumb that would guide these roads would be that they are covered and sequestered from the environment.
I will also reveal a prejudice of mine - I am skeptical of robots/automation. With all the variability of soil and bedrock landforms I think a human presence will be continually needed. (Also note my last post on "Trains of Mars".)
I think your idea of an enclosed or even subterranean road/railway is feasible, but it will require a lot of work. I think the elevated train idea would be easier to build and (maybe) easier to maintain. But I think roads will be useful for rover/truck style movement of people.
Let's say we have two bases to connect that lie 10 km apart. What do you think about a raised roadbed? Maybe 10m across and 1 m high? This would likely keep rocks off the road and the fine dust would not necessary be inhibitive although I could see it piling up along the sides.
How could we build this? I like your idea of a metal plated road. How much iron could realistically be smelted from the surrounding regolith and how thin could this layer be?

i like the idea of a raised road, i REALLY do, BUT under storm situations say you want to get to one base or god forbid there is an emergency... they need access 24/7 no matter the situation from one to the other.

by slightly under ground i mean digging a trench maybe 2-3' deep (shouldn't be that hard other than any type of rock there) and then take the soil collected and melt it down into iron slabs 1" thick (remember things aren't as heavy there) and then have it be shaped over the trench like this /---\ so you can then pile rocks/dirt along the outside to help protect the surface of the metal (from storms and flying debris)

its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)

as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.

with reguards to the robots/automation... i'm not suggesting an AI type of robot, but more of a C&C machine if you know what those are. humans stake off the work area with sensors... then on a computer they map it out as the 4 points and limits of where the robots work, then they draw out on the computer what they want and where, and from there robots (basicly think big street paving machine/snow blower) go through and gather and move surface soil up and over into a bank. pretty straight foward.

MarsRefresh · 2007-12-21 12:53:03

its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)
as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.

Yesterday I was reading that most rock on Mars is basaltic in composition and most of the soil is decomposed basalt. The ultra-fine dust that coats everything is a majority hematite so this would be useful. In another thread someone mentioned that the soil itself generally contains "near ore-grade" levels of iron. However, areas of "dark soil" on Mars do not (if I remember correctly) have so much iron. However, let's presume that such a "sheet smelter" begins to make sheilds for the trench road that is excavated by another machine/robot. How would you power your excavators? How big would they be?

On the other hand, I still like the idea of rock or iron paved raised roads as I think a rover could drive through a major storm, although night driving will always be slower I suspect.

Also, would you lean the iron sides into each other to form a "roof"?

Dragoneye · 2007-12-21 13:07:07

its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)
as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.
Yesterday I was reading that most rock on Mars is basaltic in composition and most of the soil is decomposed basalt. The ultra-fine dust that coats everything is a majority hematite so this would be useful. In another thread someone mentioned that the soil itself generally contains "near ore-grade" levels of iron. However, areas of "dark soil" on Mars do not (if I remember correctly) have so much iron. However, let's presume that such a "sheet smelter" begins to make sheilds for the trench road that is excavated by another machine/robot. How would you power your excavators? How big would they be?
On the other hand, I still like the idea of rock or iron paved raised roads as I think a rover could drive through a major storm, although night driving will always be slower I suspect.
Also, would you lean the iron sides into each other to form a "roof"?

yes i couldn't show it with the letters and symbols here on the keyboard, but yea it would have a flat roof maybe even use the roof as your "paved road".

as far as what its powered by... dont worry about that i have that figured out, you'll see in the next year or so when I accumilate some more money through my company for that. i have all the power production for mars already figured out.

and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.

Terraformer · 2007-12-22 14:27:23

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?

Dragoneye · 2007-12-23 09:26:31

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?

i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily

MarsRefresh · 2007-12-27 22:51:41

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?
i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily

I am curious to see your "polished" proposal for melting roads.

Dragoneye wrote:

wrote:

and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.

Well, the highest recorded wind speeds I found were 250 mph, and these were in the upper atmosphere, screaming off the poles in the Spring. If we design for 200 mph surface winds that should be plenty, I think. However, currently the Martian atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as Earth's and so has that much less punch. On the other hand, things weigh 2/3rds less.

When analyzing the potential of windmills on Mars, Zubrin calculates that a 60 mph (30 m/s) wind would generate the equivalent force of a 12 mph (6 m/s) wind on Earth. This is a ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore a 200 mph wind on Mars would be roughly equivalent to a 40 mph wind on Earth.

My conclusion is that the equivalent of a 40 mph terrestrial windstorm would pose less of a threat to a surface rover than the darkness of heavy dust conditions. BUT, this is true while the atmosphere is at 1 millibar. If we double the atmospheric pressure than this would dramatically increase the power of the wind. (Would it exactly double?) So, I think your idea of sequestered roads are increasingly relevent as terraforming progresses.

The most likely scenario for a future Mars society will be a combination of various road and railroad structures. The Dragoneye Iron Roads would first be built in high priority routes, say between two close bases. However, unless it's much easier to build these roads than I expect, the raised roadbeds would be an important component of the transportation network and simple jeep tracks would still have value for low priority pathways.

Hmm. I wonder if canals would be feasible? Perhaps a long 1-2 mm thick polyethylene tube 10 m (or even 5 m?) in diameter could be laid over long flat surfaces such as the northern plains and covered with a a thin layer of soil. Fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full of water and send narrow barges through, one direction at a time. Ships on Mars would have a ridiculously shallow draft and the barges could carry suprisingly large amounts of cargo. Water transport is by far the cheapest transport method on Earth. Anything that can go by ship goes by ship.

Dragoneye · 2007-12-28 08:55:34

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?
i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily
I am curious to see your "polished" proposal for melting roads.
Dragoneye wrote:
wrote:
and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.
Well, the highest recorded wind speeds I found were 250 mph, and these were in the upper atmosphere, screaming off the poles in the Spring. If we design for 200 mph surface winds that should be plenty, I think. However, currently the Martian atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as Earth's and so has that much less punch. On the other hand, things weigh 2/3rds less.
When analyzing the potential of windmills on Mars, Zubrin calculates that a 60 mph (30 m/s) wind would generate the equivalent force of a 12 mph (6 m/s) wind on Earth. This is a ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore a 200 mph wind on Mars would be roughly equivalent to a 40 mph wind on Earth.
My conclusion is that the equivalent of a 40 mph terrestrial windstorm would pose less of a threat to a surface rover than the darkness of heavy dust conditions. BUT, this is true while the atmosphere is at 1 millibar. If we double the atmospheric pressure than this would dramatically increase the power of the wind. (Would it exactly double?) So, I think your idea of sequestered roads are increasingly relevent as terraforming progresses.
The most likely scenario for a future Mars society will be a combination of various road and railroad structures. The Dragoneye Iron Roads would first be built in high priority routes, say between two close bases. However, unless it's much easier to build these roads than I expect, the raised roadbeds would be an important component of the transportation network and simple jeep tracks would still have value for low priority pathways.
Hmm. I wonder if canals would be feasible? Perhaps a long 1-2 mm thick polyethylene tube 10 m (or even 5 m?) in diameter could be laid over long flat surfaces such as the northern plains and covered with a a thin layer of soil. Fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full of water and send narrow barges through, one direction at a time. Ships on Mars would have a ridiculously shallow draft and the barges could carry suprisingly large amounts of cargo. Water transport is by far the cheapest transport method on Earth. Anything that can go by ship goes by ship.

as far as the water transportation... its super cheap here on earth because the "ground work" is already done... and you dont need to do anything to get it going just have a ship drive it there on water... to get water there you would neeed to melt ice caps on the planet... I wouldn't do that seeing as water is a HIGHLY valuable comodity....
it would be cheaper i think to "melt" cheap tracks or guides to be able to drive things arround... and since we dont have to worry about power since i have that part figured out (literally we dont need to worry about power)
the biggest thing we need to do there on the planet is get plant life introduced, and get water to water them.... once we do that we can derive plastics and other resources we can use to build and construct things there with so we aren't dependent on long durration trips from earth for supplies... I really do think that a major requirement for us to be getting to mars and sticking arround there for some time we need robots to help do lots of things for us...
I know i'm getting off topic with roads... but roads are all stemed off other things.... i dont feel exploration of the planet is our biggest thing off the bat.. and to do that we would be getting off focus.. our biggest thing is establishing a presence there.

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