New Mars Forums

My two words: Shareholders republic.

That is, they who invest in the colonisation, and terraforming of Mars, weather with their money or work, get a share in the Mars Development Corporation and thus voting rights accordingly.

But lets discuss the thread founder´s idea. Tell me why these issues should be on the Central/Federal government instead with each and every colony, county, bundesrepublic, or state? Or even better on the responsibility of each individual?

Why remake the problems of today on Earth, in this instince particularly the US, on Mars, instead of doing it right this time? And how could such a central government pay for all these things in colonies spread over the whole surface of Mars. The logistical and financial aspects of this would be nightmaris, just if we take one of those things, f.e. Hospitals.

I can in many ways agree with Cobra commander that if it is thus thouroghly established how the political system of Mars should be, before we get there, it would effectively reduce my motivation to go there. Mars political system should be something new, something better than what we have had before. I have been talking about certein things in my posts, wich I would like to try to establish on Mars if I could go there, and have any influence on establishing.

About Hosbitals, wich MR. Dobson can´t think could be provided by any else than a centralized Government. Of course the population of Mars will initially be young and relatively healthy, so it would not be very diffuclt for each and every individual to save for older age, when he is more likely to be sick, and they will have enough time to buy insurance from private sources.

And as the health hazard of living on Mars, radiation and such is huge, it makes no sense for a poor martian government to take that responsibility on its shoulders, from the people that can, by their own behaviour limit their danger by radiation and such.

This is just one issue, I would like to hear better arguments for leaving those issues on the hands of a future Martian government, and why if people will not want it to be on each individual, it should then not be on each "state" or colony.

There is one thing I wonder about such local government aproach, wich I am also fond of, that is, how will we get borders between those towns and communities? It could be dangerous if two compeeting communities would lay claim on the same plot of land outside their general dome, for maybe increased acriculture and such, that could result in war.

I beliewe we must give those communities some kind of system of creating property rights in a capitalistic way, that is what you use or terraform or something like that you get the property of to reduce the probability of war. But thus we will essentially have communities compeeting for land and then in all aspects they will be like companies in a market.

And as those that will go to Mars will have to pay a lot of money to get there, there will be a lot of investment in such communities, so I beliewe they will be just run like companies, at least many of them.

Actually I beliewe, weather done by private means or by government(s) agency(s) that when we go to Mars it should not be done by a small crew to land, and then return after some flag wafing and impromptu science reaserch. Rather by full scale colonization crew that should put up a self sustaining base.

Those that should go are of course those that are willing to invest their lifes in Mars and the reasearch of it and terraforming project. Mostly I beliewe those that are willing to pay for such a project should go there themselves, or their partners in such investor/terraforming companies. I have no doupt that those that will go will not just be some employees, but full time share holders, although their contribution will maybe mostly be their own labour.

I doupt private companies will give money for such a project, they will want returns eventually, weather that means hard money, or the possibility to settle ther themselves. The companies that will pay for this are those that will be founded for the sole purpose of terraforming and settling by the settlers themselves and their backers.

I hope I have answered most of your quistions on this thread, but as to those remarks on the other thread:

I have no doupt that those who will go will have all those skills, others would just be futile in their efforts, and would certeinly not have an easy time getting backers for their projects. Investors will not back someone that does not know what they are doing. Although I beliewe those that go will have to invest all they have got into it, I doupt they would be rich, but you don´t have to be rich to start a company if you have a good idea. But you can become rich if the idea bears fruit, and I have little doupt that the idea of terraforming Mars is something that will give those that pursue it good returns of their investments of money and labour.

So the basic merit for going to Mars is I beliewe willingness to give Mars and the ideal of making it habitable to humans, your life and lifework.

We should point out the fact how good investment Mars will be for us. And in fact as it is such a good investment, we will not have to tax people to go to Mars, investors will pay for it themselves.

I can agree with this in principle, but I wonder how best to implement this kind of system on a new land. Yeah, when some people decide to go to Mars and found a community, they can set their own rules that work within their society, but what if that rules condradict rules of a neighboring society? How are we going to define the border between such "states" or their spheres of influence?

F.e. if 10.000 Indians would set themselfs up next to a very small community of say 200 Finnish Laestidians, what would be the rights of those later mentioned? Would the Finnish eventually have to comply to the rules and customs of the Indians and their maybe Guru leader that led them to Mars? Or if it is a democracy, would the Finnish then only have 200 votes in this 10200 people community? What if the Finnish could keep their independence, whose rules should be complied to about acquiring ownership of the surrounding lands? If those two societies maybe have conflicting rules on how to acquire land, maybe both claiming the same good spot of land to terraform and make into a good place to feed their people?

It could let to conflicts, wich is something Mars, specially in the early days can not afford. So I beliewe there must be universal system of acquiring ownership on Mars, so if there are two communities that are close to each others, they would have to respect the ownership of each other, and become trading partners (and nothing hinders wars as much as trade) and respectful of each others.

But except from such a role for a unified Martian government, I beliewe it should not have any other responsibility, or at least as laisser faire as possible. Then such communities of different cultures could have their own systems of governance, but if aqcuiring ownership is based upon a universal (martian) system of say f.e. some radius around a settlement, or how much terraforming of their surrounding lands that community has been able to make, those communities would essentially compete with each others in terraforming as much land as possible, to get as much people as possible and so on and so forth.

And those societies would also cooperate in bigger projects of the terraforming process, f.e. when it comes to the athmosphere or heating the planet, maybe even buying services from each others, f.e. by paying other communities to drill for greenhouse gases in their vicinity if maybe sitting on a top of a huge such well and such.

When this will come to be, then those communities would all in all effects just work and intermingle as companies in a single economy. Why then not just go all the way, as there must of course be someone to pay for the travel and settling of each of those communities, and see those communities as the companies they essentially are. Some companies could then have some kind of commune system of joint ownerships, others would in all effects just be  shareholding democracys and others would just put up representive democracies and so on an so forth all kinds of mixes of this all.

And then, when having a system of companies setting their own laws in regards of internal affairs, some of them will, like we know in our societies, outsource. They can maybe decide to buy a set of law system from a neighboring companie, for simplicity sake, or two or three colonization companies would jointly set up a special law, arbitration and protection company that from whom they would buy their system of laws, their judgements when legal conflicts arise and even policing. Then this companie can begin to expand and compete with others in providing laws for the citizens of the various companies, if that very company does not require people to adhere only to their own laws.

Laws, arbitrations (judgements) and even policing will then essentially just become a market commodity like any other, and that will ensure that people of different cultures can have their own legal systems, without interference from a centralized global Mars government, where a simple majority would supress the rest like we know to often can happen.

Fledi is of course right that this all depends on there coming cheaper way to boost us into space. I have a lot of faith in the scramjet technology for that, and in the farther future also space elevator technology. But I beliewe one of the biggest reason for how slow advantages in this technology are materializing is the lack of capitalistic approach. Space technology has until most recently been monopilized by governments and military, and it was not until the market saw some way of profiting of space, other than contracting government work, that is space tourism real innovative work started. If the market can see a way of even bigger profits in space, f.e. if they can be allowed to acquire private property on celestial bodies, innovative technology and investment in space faring technology will get a huge boost, enough for us to see real space colonization even in our lifetime. If not, it is hopeless for the whole century at least.

But Fledi, I don´t believe there will be any danger of a totally free capitalism becoming some kind of tyrannical communism. Remember, if there are no rules imposed by a government, as there will be no government, there is no way for the companies to aqcuire monopoly. There are no rules and regulations that hinder other companies to get into the market, there are no taxes that can make it harder for small companies to thrive in competition to the big companies, and there will be no way for the companies to lobby for protective status within a government.

And then we come to the ownership issue, I just do not understand why Smearny wants a government to own everything on Mars. Is a single government better in making the most out of Martian resources, than many competitive corporations? Of course not, history has shown that much, so why trying that again, when we can try something new, something free and without the mistakes of the past. When there are many competitive companies, no one can get in the possition of owning everything, and in fact, it would not be in that companies best interests to keep others out. Companies thrive when selling service to each others, and specializing, and if there comes a big conglamatory that is going to try to do everything, internal inefficiency will make it less competitive to other companies that by specialized service from other companies just like in real life on the market today.

Clark talkes about personal responsibility, but yeat he wants the government to reliewe persons and corporations of responsibility by creating all kinds of rules and regulations. I have no doupt that a companie that runs a air dome is going to set itself internal rules to ensure no irresponsible individual will mass murder/mass suicide all the inhapitants. The companies will have incentive to be as responsible as possible, as they will not get a job/contract unless they are. If they are not, those companies will suffer, and those that employ them, as they would have to pay enormous compensations, and there is nothing that ensures caution that such a threat hanging over them. Not even government rules and regulations.

I can agree with this up to a point, going into space will change us profoundly, mostly by broading our horizon I hope and give us new possibilities. One of that changes will hopefully be more capitalistic outlook on life, of course specially in space where capitalism is the only viable solution and power to put us firmly into space, but also on Earth, as such a capitalistic space society will have effects on Earth societies, thus changing us to the better.

It seem to be so in some sense, in China they have to embraced capitalism up to a point, to enrich the ruling elite and cementing its power on the society, sadly we allowed that to happen.

Workers are paid according to the value of their contribution to the employer, that is the nature of free market of working force,  if they pay less they can go to another company that is willing to pay more for their contribution, this is the most normal of all things.

The fact you don´t see it, and your faith in the outdated, disastrous and in fact plain evil idea of Communism shows that you are in bad need of reality check. Actually Kim Stanley Robinsson has some need for it to, because although I liked his books it never ceded to amaze me how on earth (or Mars ) this society could have worked. The caracters newer seemed to do any work, and there was no production or anything in this society to drive it on, I sometimes wondered if they were living of the back of an invisible slave class that was newer mentioned.

Actually one of the caracters tried to start a farming bussiness, but everything went wrong, but it did not seem to affect him one way or another, and he as the rest of the population seemed to just continue playing and do some pet project, noone seemed to pay for.

If the ,,state" owns everything, the economy of Mars will be in disastrous shape so the terraforming or even the settlement plan will newer take of the ground, the people of Mars will just not afford it. Then of course noone will want to go there, as there will be absolutely no opportunities for people, and the population will be very, very limited, much lover than you are stating. Then of course the martian society will be utterly powerless, or in fact nonexisting (like today) and thus there will be no settlement or terraforming. The only way to create a Martian society is by using the power of capitalism and allowing people to create property rights on Mars.

Exactly my point, I can agree with all you say, and in addition I say that we need much more people to be strong enough to colonise space and Mars.

Wow, now you want this evil communist dictatorship to rule my country too, newer ever again, will the proud independent people of Iceland surrender their independence, specially not to an global dictatorship that will just trample on our rights, steal our resources and kill our culture.

So you are also hateful against religious people, the ones that are going to play the biggest role in making us strong enough to push us into the space with its ethical lifestyles of respect for family, tradition, morality and thus will play major role in creating enough good hardworking, wellbalanced, welleducated and right thinking productive people with their high fertility rate and sound and healthy social community structure that creates good and strong people, the likes of whom we need most of to have the stability needed for such an enormous task.

I doupt anyone can decline that, as each individual will have undisputable ownership over his own property, and if someone will bid enough in his property, he will sell, so the access to Mars will always be open. And in fact will the early Martians have the most to gain if more people will follow, as that will increase demand for land and other property and thus increase the value of their property.

Actually I hope there will be one country that rules all of Mars, some kind of National Republic of Mars, that everyone can become citizen of, simply just by moving there, and where there will be total freedom.

Maybe my dream is utopian and childiss, but Mars should be a Free for all territory like the US of A wanted China to be when most of the worlds empires were merkantilistic and wanted to split China up between them. With single (basic)law and constitution, but to make everyone happy, the central government should have very, very limited powers, so every community will set their own laws about most things, except maybe property rights and other basic individualistic rights.

I have become fond of the idea of private creation and enforcement of law, that is all things should be done by private means by market forces, even laws, regulations and the enforcement of laws. It sounds with first glance rather absurd idea, but exactly that is the reason it should be done on Mars, do something different, do something new, as it will be a new place that can start fresh, why not do something fresh?

Actually it has been tried before, in my own country in a limited way, when it was settled around thousand years ago. And it worked for around 300 years, as the famous economist David Friedman argues for http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/ … .html]here in his book, The Machinery of Freedom, where he illustrates how such a society could work in the complexities of the modern age.

The Icelandic/private enforcement of law exsperience, with the added private creation of law like Friedman argues for, could work well for Mars, as there will be many different kinds of people from different parts of the world (like here were many different people from all over the Viking/Kelt world), that will have to coexist so there is no room for coercion. Coercion and disrespect to different cultures will only led to violence and even wars, Mars could not afford such, it nearly destroyed Europe like has been mentioned, although it ultimately allowed it to rise stronger than ever and rule the world. We certeinly would not like that either, having Mars recolonise the Earth after it has enhances its fighting abilites after centuries of interwarfare, so we will have to do things right when it comes to colonization of Mars.

Hopefully that time comes soon, and in fact I beliewe it will be sooner if we allow capitalism to thrive freely in space, with the abilities of creating property rights than if we are going to do it all though governments like we have been doing, it just does not happen fast or soon enough, most of the technology is allready known but yeat nothing happens. I beliewe that to be because there is not enough incentives for individuals and companies, big or small to go into space and make it part of the human world.

We will all gain if the Moon, Mars, even Venus and beyond will be settled thus becoming part of the human exsperience and the endevour of our species, we have great potential and the possibilities are at our fingertips, but we are allowing it to slip away because we are fighting over spoils, who should own what, or even if anyone should own anything, of things that are worthless to us as they are today, unreachable and uninhapited.

When the worth of some things is unmeasurable by the market, it is in all real sense worthless. Nobody can bid for a portion of the Moon or Mars today, so nobody can know if he can get enough returns for his investments in going there, so nothing ever happens, nobody goes there, because nobody can create ownership and property rights there. We need to change that, and that needs to change very soon. And we need to have a lot more babies

That is more like it, although I do not understand why the people of Tasmania of all places should own it, and in fact would that be difficult in practise because how do you draw the line between a tasmanian and an Australian?

Better to have the inhabitants of various areas on Mars own that particular spot. Actually I once read an article promoting the idea that Mars should be the ultimate prise, that is, whoewer manages to go there first, he should own it. That would of course clarify all legal matters of who owns what, as that particular person, companie or whoewer will start to sell pieces of it to others.

I would rather have it more like the settlement of my country Iceland, or of the US of A in the old days, that people would declare themselfs a portion of the unused land and aquire ownership of it by using it and thus increasing its worth and capital. Here is an interesting article on what should be done to promote space faring and settlement in various space bodies by using capitalism and property rights:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/98081 … tml]Martan law

I said exacly the opposite, that martians should be a free and independant society. Do you maybe regard foreign investment to be wrong and a form of dictations? Maybe it is some form of control, but it would certeinly not be government control, as there will mostly be individuals that will fund and go to Mars, looking for profit and better lives.

It is the only viable approach economically, of course going is restricted to those that can afford it, or have made an contract to someone that affords to send them. But it is certeinly, like some said here on this board recently, the most valuable resource in Mars, working hands, so they will be well paid, that is for sure. And of course only a few can go initially, but when the infrastructure of Mars gets better, more people can go, and that is what the first will have to wager on, that more will follow.

The worth of their work will increase with more people, so essentially the ones that come later have to pay those that came first for the infrastructure they put up and so on. But it will on the other hand be cheaper to go as it will be easier than have to bring everything with them like the first will have to. So the first will, if demand for land and thus essentially demand for going to Mars will continue to increase, the investment of those that will go first will pay off.

I have no empire dreams, at least not for my country, neither the EU, wich I hate, or the USofA or any other country, but if Mars will become a free society, then it is bound to become an empire, and it will led to good.

The issue of the powerless minority is settled if the law will be bound by and created by the market forces, so people can buy laws according to their beliews by buying the service of protection agengies that follow a set of laws they can agree with. It can also be settled adequitly by power distribution, so each society will have most of the control over their own things, but the other system will led to that also.

The other explanation for the hostile feedback is the impression I have of you sometimes at least is that you are a troll...are you? At least it is sometimes very hard to understand your reasoning, although I should not be talking, having such a bad grasp of English.

The corporates are going to rule Mars, they have the neccasery drive and power to make Mars into an viable home for humans, that is, if we allow capitalism to thrive. Lets make the beuty of Capitalism make Mars and even the Moon and other celestial bodies into human paradises, nobody else can, certeinly not some corrupt governmental commonwealth. Here is an interesting article about the need for creating property rights in space:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/98081 … paper.html

But I agree with the starter of this thread (if I understood him correctly) that people should be independent of each other, I just can´t see that happening in an all powerful state.

A government, specially one with a monopoly of the space like he is proposing, can newer be as effective as competitive people starting bussines in space, but a government body can though have some merit. F.e. if there would be put up a Mars government to acquire recognision from others, but that kind of government would need to be VERY limited in powers. I would in fact prefer completely without any powers. You see, people that are going to move to Mars will be from very different bacgrounds, culturally, linguistically, socially and so on.

And Mars is a big place, so people will want to create their own societies, and not have to follow someones else´s law. So my conclusion is that in a future martian (and lunar) society, everything will have to be done by private means, the government shall not have any role, specially not in creating the law.

Of course it would be best if the people of Earth today could just agree on some basic laws about creation of ownership in space, f.e. if you build yourself a base on any celestial body, you would own it, and some land around it. In Mars it could be based on how much land you are personally responsible for terraforming. But I am afraid that will not be changed anytime soon, thus deleying and hindering process. So the solution is for some people to go to Mars (or Luna), declare it independent and  not bound by international treaties barring acquiring of ownership in space. Then a very basic constitution will voted into effect by popular vote, that does not create any legislative, judgemental or executive bodies, but only states how people will acquire ownership of land on Mars, and that each and every individual is free, independant and Mars will be a society without coercion.

Then Mars will become a pure libertarian society, or in fact anarco-capitalistic, as the three basic things the libertarians want the government to do, judging, policing and defence will be in the hands of the market. The economist David D. Friedman has described how such a society will work, in his book, http://www.answers.com/topic/the-machin … reedom]The Machinery of Freedom, although he has not talked about putting up such a society on another plantet, or how to create ownership in a place where there is no ownership today. Maybe he or other scholars have ideas about how to do that without having to use somekind of government, best if it is possible to do completely away with such, because as stated here:

I agree with this statement, so the solution is to have no government through wich the corporations can control things.

I stated here abowe that the corporates will rule things, but as they will not be able to use any coercion through the government, people will be free, even from democratic majority decisions. Such a society will be different than any we know here on Earth, but that is exactly the drive for going into space, to do things differently, have a fresh start and try something else, and such a system will also be most capable of creating the wealth neccasery for such an enormous task.

Are you talking about this article:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/printer … 205Y.shtml

This is, in my opinion, and also to my knowledge as an Icelander, wich is one of the communities he talks about, mostly bollocks.

But of course Mars will have to be mostly selfsufficient, but as that is the obvious way the market forces will do it that way, as moving things from Earth is to exspensive, and Mars will have little to sell to Earth for the first decades at least. When the investment of terraforming will be paying off, they will be able to sell land, housing and in fact the right to live there, breathing earthlike air for good prices, provided that there still will be demand for places to live due to crowdedness on Earth and Moon.