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France is making the same mistake with Putin as it did with Hitler. What is Putin but a megalomaniac dictator. Look at the history of Hitler's rise to power and now see what Putin is doing to gain the levers of power in his country. Russia is a bigger power than Germany, and look what he's doing to ethnic Georgians in Russia!
We don't fear Putin, WWII was enough, we've got the lesson, with about the most silent and up to date strategic nuclear subs in the world, able to lie low by -13500 feet depth, with special "skin" to absorb sonar signals, each of them with 96 manoeuverable nuclear warheads plus gulls, able to chrush any ennemy in second strike, dozens of neutrons nuke tactical cruise missiles, I really don't think that Putin's Russia wants to threaten France. Our strategic force units are in small number, but with a top maintenance. Nuclear reentry warheads have aleatory trajectories in order to trick antimissiles. Do you have more good advices for us ?
And some mistake of yours, Germany and France have each actually more industrial power than Russia, we've bought half of the Soyuz production via ArianeEspace to be launched from the Kourou spaceport, for instance. Putin prefers to cooperate.
Putin is a dictator interested in expanding his Empire. Do you want to help him expand it at other nation's expense, namely those surrounding ones like Georgia, and Ukraine for instance. Do you feel safe that Germany, Poland and Ukraine is in between you and Russia? How many of those countries do you want to feed to Russia before Russia is on your border? Putin's goals are rather clear, he wants to expand his borders and conquer other nations, why would you want to deal with a man like that?
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Putin is a dictator interested in expanding his Empire. Do you want to help him expand it at other nation's expense, namely those surrounding ones like Georgia, and Ukraine for instance. Do you feel safe that Germany, Poland and Ukraine is in between you and Russia? How many of those countries do you want to feed to Russia before Russia is on your border? Putin's goals are rather clear, he wants to expand his borders and conquer other nations, why would you want to deal with a man like that?
You know what ? As long as you have Bush in power, I like Putin better, is that clear to you ? Bush's the guy which brought distrust between USA and France, when we warned that attacking Iraq would set a mess in the country and around. I hate him as well as all of the cons, as do 80% of the froggies.
Ukrain and Russia speak russian. Georgia ? Stalin was a georgian.
so, this is a kind of inner problem between states which were united before.
It's quite similar as if I would poke my nose in US affairs ifever a state like California or Texas would try to separate from USA. In these affairs the US are pokenoses.
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Putin is a dictator interested in expanding his Empire. Do you want to help him expand it at other nation's expense, namely those surrounding ones like Georgia, and Ukraine for instance. Do you feel safe that Germany, Poland and Ukraine is in between you and Russia? How many of those countries do you want to feed to Russia before Russia is on your border? Putin's goals are rather clear, he wants to expand his borders and conquer other nations, why would you want to deal with a man like that?
You know what ? As long as you have Bush in power, I like Putin better, is that clear to you ?
I know that Putin is a Facist in the same mold as Mussilini, his rise to power has an eerie resemblenced to Hitler's. Putin had his own "enabling acts" and he used an attack on an elementary school as an excuse to solidify his grip on power and appoint the governors of the Russian States taking away the rights of the Russian people to elect them, he has taxed the free press intio submission until the ones that are left are only the ones that reflect the official state line. I doubt whether you'd be pleased if George Bush became a dictator like Putin, because if he did, he could ignor public opinion and control the press just like Putin does. There'd be no CNN, no MSNBC, no New York Times, they'd all be taxed or harassed out of business by the Federal government.
It is sad to see a French person like you supporting dictators, France has had a long and ignoble history with dictators, starting with Napoleon, and Napoleon II. The original French Revolution was about the rights of the people, so how can the people have rights if they don't get to choose their own government on a regular basis? Does democracy mean so little to you that you'd flock to the banner of the nearest dictator, just as long as he is not American?
Bush's the guy which brought distrust between USA and France, when we warned that attacking Iraq would set a mess in the country and around. I hate him as well as all of the cons, as do 80% of the froggies.
Ukrain and Russia speak russian. Georgia ? Stalin was a georgian.
so, this is a kind of inner problem between states which were united before.
It's quite similar as if I would poke my nose in US affairs ifever a state like California or Texas would try to separate from USA. In these affairs the US are pokenoses.
So you support Russian Imperialism instead of the American brand, how are the two different? We didn't "liberate" any of our 50 states and then go back on our word and try to retake them by force!
So if you support Georgia's forced absorption into the Russian Empire, does that also mean that you'd support Germany's annexing of Austria, and Switzerland, and maybe take some parts of France that were historically once German while they were at it. What your advocating could have serious consequences for France, and may give the Germans some ideas too. How do you like that kettle of fish?
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Putin is a dictator interested in expanding his Empire. Do you want to help him expand it at other nation's expense, namely those surrounding ones like Georgia, and Ukraine for instance. Do you feel safe that Germany, Poland and Ukraine is in between you and Russia? How many of those countries do you want to feed to Russia before Russia is on your border? Putin's goals are rather clear, he wants to expand his borders and conquer other nations, why would you want to deal with a man like that?
You know what ? As long as you have Bush in power, I like Putin better, is that clear to you ?
I know that Putin is a Facist in the same mold as Mussilini, his rise to power has an eerie resemblenced to Hitler's. Putin had his own "enabling acts" and he used an attack on an elementary school as an excuse to solidify his grip on power and appoint the governors of the Russian States taking away the rights of the Russian people to elect them, he has taxed the free press intio submission until the ones that are left are only the ones that reflect the official state line. I doubt whether you'd be pleased if George Bush became a dictator like Putin, because if he did, he could ignor public opinion and control the press just like Putin does. There'd be no CNN, no MSNBC, no New York Times, they'd all be taxed or harassed out of business by the Federal government.
Putin has to fight Chechens which are tough terrorists allied with AlQaeda, has to set a stronghold on the southern borders where former USSR republics are muslims where fundy islamists are very active. If you pretend to be at war at terrorism, then you should be glad to ally to Putin rather than do what the US does, trying to weaken Russia
It is sad to see a French person like you supporting dictators, France has had a long and ignoble history with dictators, starting with Napoleon, and Napoleon II. The original French Revolution was about the rights of the people, so how can the people have rights if they don't get to choose their own government on a regular basis? Does democracy mean so little to you that you'd flock to the banner of the nearest dictator, just as long as he is not American?
When you refer to hystory, don't spread your ignorance, Napoleon I was a dictator, but nothing similar to Hitler, he never was a racist, had black officers in his army, never made anything like a concentration camp.
We didn't have a Napoleon II, he died in South Africa, Napoleon III let the press as free as can be, never satirical press have been as cruel as under its regime, and he let it go.
Bush's the guy which brought distrust between USA and France, when we warned that attacking Iraq would set a mess in the country and around. I hate him as well as all of the cons, as do 80% of the froggies.
Ukrain and Russia speak russian. Georgia ? Stalin was a georgian.
so, this is a kind of inner problem between states which were united before.
It's quite similar as if I would poke my nose in US affairs ifever a state like California or Texas would try to separate from USA. In these affairs the US are pokenoses.So you support Russian Imperialism instead of the American brand, how are the two different? We didn't "liberate" any of our 50 states and then go back on our word and try to retake them by force!
No, there have never been any secession war, if must have been a hoax...
If Bush is "the American brand", this is torture legalized, all western Europe rejects the image of this Guantanamo's and Abu Ghraib's America
I'm sad that we cooperate with Russia, China and India in space activities rather than with NASA, but that's a consequence of the Bush go alone attitude.
We want to go in space, have a world ruled with cooperative partners, not under such a narrow minded US mastership
When you post, it's really representative of that narrow mind, you can argue only with your own point of view, with arguments that fails because they don't have any value for whom you try to convince. When I see how Bush or Rice try to get support from the Arabs, I'm appalled with such an ignorance of the arab mentallity and traditions. Why do you think that Villepin was standing ovationned by the UNO security council and not Colin Powell ?
Just because there was a man speaking after some kind of a computer repport.
What you say can just convince a Kansas'cowboy
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You know what ? As long as you have Bush in power, I like Putin better, is that clear to you ?
I know that Putin is a Facist in the same mold as Mussilini, his rise to power has an eerie resemblenced to Hitler's. Putin had his own "enabling acts" and he used an attack on an elementary school as an excuse to solidify his grip on power and appoint the governors of the Russian States taking away the rights of the Russian people to elect them, he has taxed the free press intio submission until the ones that are left are only the ones that reflect the official state line. I doubt whether you'd be pleased if George Bush became a dictator like Putin, because if he did, he could ignor public opinion and control the press just like Putin does. There'd be no CNN, no MSNBC, no New York Times, they'd all be taxed or harassed out of business by the Federal government.
Putin has to fight Chechens which are tough terrorists allied with AlQaeda, has to set a stronghold on the southern borders where former USSR republics are muslims where fundy islamists are very active.
Georgia is not a Muslim state, the fact that it was the birthplace of Stalin is also irrelevant. If Putin is trying to fight terrorism, he sure has a funny way of showing it, trying to help Iran get a nuclear bomb for instance. Iran is a well know terrorist state. Its no wonder the Russian NAtional Symbol is a two-headed eagle, or shall we say two faced? Putin has been most interested in fighting the terrorists that are bothering the Russian people, and only then as a further excuse to justify further concentration of political power in his hands. The United States doesn't need a dictator to fight terrorism, why should Russia?
If you pretend to be at war at terrorism, then you should be glad to ally to Putin rather than do what the US does, trying to weaken Russia.
Where'd you get that from? 72 years of communism has weakend Russia! I don't think the Bolshevik Revolution was an American plot. Boris Yeltsin has given those former Soviet Republics their independence, they are independent countries now, When we speak of Russia, we are talking about theFederated Republic of Russia. Georgia is not part of Russia, neither is Ukraine, some of them speak Russian just like some Quebequois speak French, does that mean France should attack Canada?
It is sad to see a French person like you supporting dictators, France has had a long and ignoble history with dictators, starting with Napoleon, and Napoleon II. The original French Revolution was about the rights of the people, so how can the people have rights if they don't get to choose their own government on a regular basis? Does democracy mean so little to you that you'd flock to the banner of the nearest dictator, just as long as he is not American?
When you refer to hystory, don't spread your ignorance, Napoleon I was a dictator, but nothing similar to Hitler, he never was a racist, had black officers in his army, never made anything like a concentration camp.
Wasn't racist eh? Ever hear of a place called Haiti, it was the locale of a massive slave rebellion, black slaves in fact. In the aftermath of the French Revolution, those black slaves were not freed and given their rights of Man, under Napoleon, those slaves weren't freed either. The Haitians had to overthrow their masters and free themselves, this was a French colony after all, those blacks had to free themselves from the oppression under the rule of the French Empire under Napoleon. I think keeping black slaves and not white slaves is a rather racist thing. Napoleon wasn't as cruel as Hitler, few people are, but he was a dictator, and as a general rule, I don't trust dictators. I would rather not have dictators where we don't have to have them, and so far, fighting terrorism is no excuse for dictatorship. What George Bush has done to fight terrorism hasn't come close to what Putin has done to concentrate power in his hands in the name of fighting terrorism. If you haven't noticed Putin is not being badgered by the Russian Press the way George Bush is by the American Press, that is because Putin controls the Russian Press, while George Bush does not control the American Press. We fight terrorism, but we don't resort to the "emergency measures" Putin has resorted to in order to "fight terrorism". When you compare the two Administrations, I'd say George Bush has done a much more effective job in fighting terrorism than Putin has, Putin is mainly concerned with amassing power and undermining American influence in the World, and fighting terrorism comes in as a distant second. Putin seems more willing to use terrorism as a club to undermine American influence and its ability to fight terrorism. Putin is effectively still fighting the Cold War, but instead of fighting under the banner of International Communism, he is fighting under the one of Russian Imperialism and the Double Eagle.
We didn't have a Napoleon II, he died in South Africa, Napoleon III let the press as free as can be, never satirical press have been as cruel as under its regime, and he let it go.
Bush's the guy which brought distrust between USA and France, when we warned that attacking Iraq would set a mess in the country and around. I hate him as well as all of the cons, as do 80% of the froggies.
You still haven't explained why you hate him, just because he wouldn't listen to your country's leader's advice. Do I have to remind you that France doesn't have a Dog in this fight in Iraq, no French Troops are being threatened, it is American troops who are. George bush can heed Chiracs advice or ignore it. His concern is for winning the War in Iraq. I don't think this is cause for Hatred, George Bush has not attacked France. The Germans and Russians have done worse things to France than George Bush has done.
Ukrain and Russia speak russian. Georgia ? Stalin was a georgian.
so, this is a kind of inner problem between states which were united before.
It's quite similar as if I would poke my nose in US affairs ifever a state like California or Texas would try to separate from USA. In these affairs the US are pokenoses.So you support Russian Imperialism instead of the American brand, how are the two different? We didn't "liberate" any of our 50 states and then go back on our word and try to retake them by force!
No, there have never been any secession war, if must have been a hoax...
We didn't liberate any of the Confederate States of the South, they rebelled, and we cruched them after 4 years of hard fighting, we did not grant them their independence and then reneg on it, although the Democrats at that time wanted to recognise the Confederate States of America as an Independent country.
If Bush is "the American brand", this is torture legalized, all western Europe rejects the image of this Guantanamo's and Abu Ghraib's America
I'm sad that we cooperate with Russia, China and India in space activities rather than with NASA, but that's a consequence of the Bush go alone attitude.
We want to go in space, have a world ruled with cooperative partners, not under such a narrow minded US mastership
You focus on such narrow and trivial issues, how does that compare with Putin's Imperialism? The so called torture involves such things as Allegidly flushing a Koran down the toilet. Now why would the guards do that, you know a koran flush down the toilet would clog it, and then they would have to call plumber to fix it. Another form of "torture" was US Guards performing racy sex acts with each other in from of captive prisoners, something that should not have been done, but clearly not torture. I guess what goes on in those French Porn shops are also torture too. I thought French people had a more progressive attutide than that.
When you post, it's really representative of that narrow mind, you can argue only with your own point of view, with arguments that fails because they don't have any value for whom you try to convince. When I see how Bush or Rice try to get support from the Arabs, I'm appalled with such an ignorance of the arab mentallity and traditions. Why do you think that Villepin was standing ovationned by the UNO security council and not Colin Powell ?
And Arab traditions are much closer to the Frenchj ideals of liberation, equality, and fraternity? When exactly did your country give up on those ideals? It is those ideals that we are trying to pursue in Iraq.
Just because there was a man speaking after some kind of a computer repport.
What you say can just convince a Kansas'cowboy
If I can convince a Kansas Cowboy, that is certainly a start.
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When you post, it's really representative of that narrow mind
Disregarding who said that and to whom, I'd like to say something. Too often standing for/believing in something is equated with "a narrow mind." And by the same token being "open-minded" is often mistaken for spineless passivity.
We need to be careful not to make these mistakes.
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
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When you post, it's really representative of that narrow mind
Disregarding who said that and to whom, I'd like to say something. Too often standing for/believing in something is equated with "a narrow mind." And by the same token being "open-minded" is often mistaken for spineless passivity.
We need to be careful not to make these mistakes.
Its a fuzzy universe we live in, there are no hard and fast rules. I try to keep an open mind about most things I'm not very knowledgeable about, i'm a bit more conservative over things I know more about. I don't believe socialism works very well, it is a waste of money at best and a source of tyranny and oppression at worst, what it achieves is greatly overshadowed by what it costs society. I don't entertain UFO conspiracy theories. I also don't entertain conspiracy theories about America being this great big evil awful Empire that causes all the misery in the world. I think the evidence is clear that Putin is being a dictator, and opposition groups in his country are being oppressed. I think it is wrong that liberals like to completely focus on George Bush as teh great evil in the world while completely ignoring the dirty dealings of a real dictator such as Putin. It their is anyone who's using the War on Terrorism to justify curtailing civil rights in his country, that would be Vladimir Putin. So if your going to vilify Bush for supposedly allowing US troops to flush a Koran down a toilet and performing sex acts in front of unlawful combatants, then some attention must also be paid to the overt Imperialistic policies of the Russian Empire towards its neighboring states.
It is franky insulting that DonPanic denigrates the national aspirations of the post Soviet successor states, calling them just part of Russia. I have a wife who's from Poland, depending on certain definitions, her country was also once part of Russia, I'm not only talking about when it was a Warsaw Pact puppet state, but also when Poland was partitioned by Russia, Germany, and Austria in the 18th centuries. If Georgia doesn't have rights to independent statehood, then the argument could extend to Poland as well, and make no mistake, Poles are not Russians! Russia doesn't have a right to an Empire, it gave that empire up voluntarily, and Russia should mind its own business and worry about itself. I'm willing to accept the current borders of Russia, I don't think it should be expanded. Now if France is going to be hypercritical of the USA, it should also pay attention to what Russia is doing, or else it is being hypocritical.
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Its a fuzzy universe we live in, there are no hard and fast rules. I try to keep an open mind about most things I'm not very knowledgeable about, i'm a bit more conservative over things I know more about. I don't believe socialism works very well, it is a waste of money at best and a source of tyranny and oppression at worst, what it achieves is greatly overshadowed by what it costs society.
In scandinavian countries like Denmark, SocialDem works quite well, there, even conservatives are just less socialdem than Socialdems, it may be worthier for a country to spend money on social programs than to let the weak peoples sink in poverty.
I also don't entertain conspiracy theories about America being this great big evil awful Empire that causes all the misery in the world. I think the evidence is clear that Putin is being a dictator, and opposition groups in his country are being oppressed. I think it is wrong that liberals like to completely focus on George Bush as teh great evil in the President Eisenhowerworld while completely ignoring the dirty dealings of a real dictator such as Putin.
So if your going to vilify Bush for supposedly allowing US troops to flush a Koran down a toilet and performing sex acts in front of unlawful combatants, then some attention must also be paid to the overt Imperialistic policies of the Russian Empire towards its neighboring states.
I didn't say that Bush was a great evil but a chimpanzee type of man, he thinks "evil countries", that's not a concept of mines and it's as stupid as the former "dominos' theory" thank to which US killed a million Viets, spilled on them napalm and Orange agent.
First result when you name a country as evil is to harden its attitude and get more support from its population for their leaders.
Putin has quite a good support from Russians themselves, they don't easily give up the strong men tradition of imperial states. Democracy isn't cold turqey decreed as done in Iraq. Even if I dislike his ways, Putin makes his russian Premier job, defending russian influence on former USSR states. The countries close to Afghanistan are under islamic influence and Putin plays Shia islamism against tough sunni islamism. When you know a little bit of the Shias, they rather have the cult or martyrs, it is not an agressive branch of Islam, even though theocratic and if women are mistreated.
It is franky insulting that DonPanic denigrates the national aspirations of the post Soviet successor states, calling them just part of Russia. I have a wife who's from Poland, depending on certain definitions, her country was also once part of Russia,
Part of the Varsaw Pact, that's an important nuance escaping you, the polish administration relied on communist polishes, nobody told them, "now, you're no more Polishes, you're Russians", that's very different from Estonia, Latvia, lettonia, where Russians are now subcitizens, most of them were just ordinary peoples, not leaders.
When you say I deny the rights of peoples, it' a complete mistake, it means you don't understand, I try to see in details which are each country interests and politics, before claiming which are the bad guys.
The Polishes had too their historic period where they dominated their neighbourhood, the Russians weren't alone to attack Poland, independance of Poland doesn't avoid firing Gdansk shipbuilding workers which did so much for the independence of Poland. And now, Poland is part of Europe, Russia doesn't threaten them anymore. In Georgia as well in some former USSR dominated countries, there are russian minorities which are now mistreated, in Georgia as well as in baltic countries.
But when the Polishes want to make of Europe a "christiandom", in France we don't like to mix politics with religious convictions, we oppose them.
When you say that Putin tries to undermine US influence, the opposite is true, but the point is that the best US influence underminer is at White House.
Since he's there, the US influence on the world has reached a historic law, under Clinton, we would be friendly arguing, now we have hostile arguments about which of our countries practiced slavery the last one or mistreats its minorities, you and me.
It would be quite the same with many, like the Spanishes which say that without Bush and Aznar's alignment on Bush's Iraq policy, Madrid wouln't have been terrorist attacked
Now if France is going to be hypercritical of the USA, it should also pay attention to what Russia is doing, or else it is being.
hypocritical.
I' not France...
Russia is an obsolescent country which administration has been corrupted, infiltrated by russian mafiosis, if not a Putin, it could be worse than right now.
When former socialists turn to nationalism, you know what it gives, national-socialism...
The "War on Terrorism" choosing Iraq as a battlefield hasn't improved security for Iraqis nor for the rest of the world.
Right now, because of the US Army being Iraq mud trapped, nobody knows how to withdraw properly, USA has lost prestige, power of deterrence, be on Iran, or North Korea or Sudan and so on, is hatred in most of the muslim world, latin american leaders campaign on anti-americanism, make friend with Castro rather than Bush, these are the facts !
Facing facts, you can either stay unchanged and to keep the comfortable idea that your're all good and the others all bad, making the case for preemptive wars or open your eyes and realize that you or I are not much better than anybody else, here, I've just a more acuratate knowledge of europeans afffairs, I've been to Berlin before the falling of the wall, I've travelled in Europe, Northern Africa, Center Africa, I can name 95% of countries on a deaf map
I can tell that your democracy allowing a president to be elected with fewer voices than his opponent ceased to look sexy to the world opinion, as well as your "values" is we don't even really agree on, if they keep being those of the conservatives, no thanks!
It's not a matter of Reps or Dems, of anti-americanism, we still stand with the highest respect for President Eisenhower, but compared with Bush, on all the matters, Eisenhower was the day, Bush is the night
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Part of the Varsaw Pact, that's an important nuance escaping you, the polish administration relied on communist polishes, nobody told them, "now, you're no more Polishes, you're Russians", that's very different from Estonia, Latvia, lettonia, where Russians are now subcitizens, most of them were just ordinary peoples, not leaders.
France could have been in the same boat you know. Remember the Vichy government that ruled part of France on Germany's behalf? It made no difference to the French Jews deported to Auchwitz, that it was French Police that were rounding them up and stuffing them on the train to be deported to the gas chambers and crematoriums of Auchwitz and other Death camps in Poland and Germany. The Polish government under the Warsaw pact was sort of like a Vichy government run by the Soviets, they appointed their favorite Poles to run Polaned for them, and then staged a bogus election without competiton to legitimize them. And you say that all Poles should be concerned about is whether the person ruling over them was born in Poland and whether the Soviets gave him a free hand to rule as he likes. That is what I call a fig leaf or more specifically a Quisling. the United States could have done the same with France after we pushed out the Germans, but we didn't, that establishes the difference between us and the Warsaw pact.
When you say I deny the rights of peoples, it' a complete mistake, it means you don't understand, I try to see in details which are each country interests and politics, before claiming which are the bad guys.
You mean the Germans weren't Evil when they deported French Jews from your contry to be exterminated? If you were a French Jew on the train to one of the camps, would you try very hard to understand your enemy and why he is doing what he was doing?
The Polishes had too their historic period where they dominated their neighbourhood, the Russians weren't alone to attack Poland, independance of Poland doesn't avoid firing Gdansk shipbuilding workers which did so much for the independence of Poland. And now, Poland is part of Europe, Russia doesn't threaten them anymore.
Want to bet? What Russia does in Georgia and the Ukraine establishes a precident for what Russia may try to do to them in the future. If Poland says nothing abot Georgia, Poland may be next on their list, they are not first on their list, but as Russia works its way down its list of former Soviet and Russian possessions, it gets closer to Poland. France is nice and safe and cozy on the Atlantic coast, so it is not as much concerned, and Poles are concerned that Nations like France might make an offering of Poland to Russia in order to buy a few more years of peace with the Russians. Few poles really think seriously about French Soldiers putting their lives on the line to defend Poland, the events of World War II disabused them of that notion.
In Georgia as well in some former USSR dominated countries, there are russian minorities which are now mistreated, in Georgia as well as in baltic countries.
You mean like "Sudetenland Russians"? German minorities on other countries were excuses for Hitler to invade, and suddenly Putin has become so "concerned" for Russian minorities in neighboring countries just outside Russia's borders. Perhaps Geogia ought to allieviate thse concerns by kicking those minorities out of Georgia. If the minorities aren't around to be abused, then they can't be. Its not their fault mind you, its just that George can't afford to allow them to remain if Putin is going to use them as an excuse to invade or support insurents within Georgia to split off territory and annex it to Russia. Too bad the Russian minorities get caught in the middle, they don't necessarily like Putin, but that is geopolitics, it would be wise for the Georgian leader to expel them, if they don't like being Georgians. You french can take an example from this and do something about the muslim minorities that are currently making a habit of burning Paris. If they don't want to really be French, they should say good bye to France and hello to the Middle East or North Africa.
But when the Polishes want to make of Europe a "christiandom", in France we don't like to mix politics with religious convictions, we oppose them.
The muslim minority in your country wants to mix politics with religion and traditionally they have always done so. They want Islam to fill the vacuum you have created.
When you say that Putin tries to undermine US influence, the opposite is true, but the point is that the best US influence underminer is at White House.
Since he's there, the US influence on the world has reached a historic law, under Clinton, we would be friendly arguing, now we have hostile arguments about which of our countries practiced slavery the last one or mistreats its minorities, you and me.
It would be quite the same with many, like the Spanishes which say that without Bush and Aznar's alignment on Bush's Iraq policy, Madrid wouln't have been terrorist attacked
That's what we call "Blame the victim" in the states. You could similarly blame the French Jews and the French government's refusal to hand them over to the Germans for the German invasion. We are being attacked, it is not our fault that our attackers may attack someone else they feel may be aligned to us if their primary target is us. the above argument youstate above is a sumbissive argument, the argument goes that Spain has not been properly submissive to the Islamic Terrorists, and thus that is why the terrorist attack happened. Islam runs alot of third world countries, I don't see whay they are qualified to run the first world or should be allowed to conquer Europe when they run their own countries so incompetantly.
Now if France is going to be hypercritical of the USA, it should also pay attention to what Russia is doing, or else it is being.
hypocritical.I' not France...
Russia is an obsolescent country which administration has been corrupted, infiltrated by russian mafiosis, if not a Putin, it could be worse than right now.
When former socialists turn to nationalism, you know what it gives, national-socialism...The "War on Terrorism" choosing Iraq as a battlefield hasn't improved security for Iraqis nor for the rest of the world.
Right now, because of the US Army being Iraq mud trapped, nobody knows how to withdraw properly, USA has lost prestige, power of deterrence, be on Iran, or North Korea or Sudan and so on, is hatred in most of the muslim world, latin american leaders campaign on anti-americanism, make friend with Castro rather than Bush, these are the facts !
And we can make them sorry they did so!
Facing facts, you can either stay unchanged and to keep the comfortable idea that your're all good and the others all bad, making the case for preemptive wars or open your eyes and realize that you or I are not much better than anybody else, here, I've just a more acuratate knowledge of europeans afffairs, I've been to Berlin before the falling of the wall, I've travelled in Europe, Northern Africa, Center Africa, I can name 95% of countries on a deaf map
I can tell that your democracy allowing a president to be elected with fewer voices than his opponent ceased to look sexy to the world opinion, as well as your "values" is we don't even really agree on, if they keep being those of the conservatives, no thanks!
Yes, we try to conserve democracy and freedom, freedom of speech and religion, things that radicals want to throw out the window in their social experiments, that serve nothing except to help them amass power.
It's not a matter of Reps or Dems, of anti-americanism, we still stand with the highest respect for President Eisenhower, but compared with Bush, on all the matters, Eisenhower was the day, Bush is the night
The "Bush" you talk about is in part fiction, it doesn't have much to do with the real person who occupies the White House. You should look at other places in the world, not just Bush as the cause of all its troubles.
Whatever has George Bush done to your country of France/ Has he ever done as much as Hitler has? Most of your objections seem to stem from him having different values from your own, that is no reason to hate him. Their are other people in the world who represent direct threats to France, perhaps you ought to be paying more attention to them, rather than focus on Bush all the time. This is not your country after all, what business is it of yours to tell Bush how he should run the United States Government. if we don't have Universal Health care, that is certainly not your concern in France.
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France could have been in the same boat you know. Remember the Vichy government that ruled part of France on Germany's behalf? It made no difference to the French Jews deported to Auchwitz, that it was French Police that were rounding them up and stuffing them on the train to be deported to the gas chambers and crematoriums of Auchwitz and other Death camps in Poland and Germany. The Polish government under the Warsaw pact was sort of like a Vichy government run by the Soviets, they appointed their favorite Poles to run Polaned for them, and then staged a bogus election without competiton to legitimize them. And you say that all Poles should be concerned about is whether the person ruling over them was born in Poland and whether the Soviets gave him a free hand to rule as he likes. That is what I call a fig leaf or more specifically a Quisling.
No, the fig leaf is your agitating points of the past that do not change anything of the present facts
the United States could have done the same with France after we pushed out the Germans, but we didn't, that establishes the difference between us and the Warsaw pact.
No they wouln't, because if France had been hostile to USA, without the resistance undermining the german forces, sabotaging communications and means of troops transportation, containing and delaying german reinforcements, the ally troops landing would have been much tougher and much more costly,
Nevertheless, Vichy French forces put up a strong and bloody resistance to Allied forces in Oran and Morocco. But not in Algiers, where a coup d'état by the French resistance on November 8 succeeded in neutralizing the French XIX Army Corps of Algiers before the landing, and arrested the Vichyist commanders. Consequently the landings met no practical opposition
And there is no reason to occupy a country whose population acts massively friendly with the USA, a military peacefull occupation costs a lot of money from the US taxpayers, and would cost much more if the occupation is unwanted and if the population turns to rebellion
You mean the Germans weren't Evil when they deported French Jews from your contry to be exterminated? If you were a French Jew on the train to one of the camps, would you try very hard to understand your enemy and why he is doing what he was doing?
I meant nothing like that, don't you distort my toughts or what I wrote : understanting the other's point of view is just the first phase. When you don't or you can't or don't want to understand as you do, Tom Kalbfus, you may make heavy mistakes as showing Saddam Hussein in humiliating conditions, unshaved, scrutinized just like a beast, that was seen as some kind of great success indeed for the average US citizen witch saw this like some kind of satistied retaliation for the 9/11. While this "great victory" was shown on world TVs, millions of the muslim population which feel closer to an muslim arab than to an americain US, thinking "that's how they treat us" this is some more anger or hate adding more fuel on a fire, as would do all of your awesome solutions to restorate world peace with more violences
If Poland says nothing abot Georgia, Poland may be next on their list, they are not first on their list, but as Russia works its way down its list of former Soviet and Russian possessions, it gets closer to Poland. France is nice and safe and cozy on the Atlantic coast, so it is not as much concerned, Few poles really think seriously about French Soldiers putting their lives on the line to defend Poland, the events of World War II disabused them of that notion.
I supposed you don't even notice that Poland is now a NATO member, a member of Europe, and de facto, Europe and the French should react against your fantasmatic so called-Putin threat at Poland.
In Georgia as well in some former USSR dominated countries, there are russian minorities which are now mistreated, in Georgia as well as in baltic countries.
You mean like "Sudetenland Russians"? German minorities on other countries were excuses for Hitler to invade, and suddenly Putin has become so "concerned" for Russian minorities in neighboring countries just outside Russia's borders. Perhaps Geogia ought to allieviate thse concerns by kicking those minorities out of Georgia. If the minorities aren't around to be abused, then they can't be. Its not their fault mind you, its just that George can't afford to allow them to remain if Putin is going to use them as an excuse to invade or support insurents within Georgia to split off territory and annex it to Russia.Too bad the Russian minorities get caught in the middle, they don't necessarily like Putin, but that is geopolitics, it would be wise for the Georgian leader to expel them, if they don't like being Georgians.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa … nt/gg.html
Georgia detached from USSR without consulting Abkhazia's and South Ossetia's populations which live there since centuries. Independence for the Goergians refused for the minorities.
You french can take an example from this and do something about the muslim minorities that are currently making a habit of burning Paris. If they don't want to really be French, they should say good bye to France and hello to the Middle East or North Africa.
We have no monopoly on urban ghettos riots
But when the Polishes want to make of Europe a "christiandom", in France we don't like to mix politics with religious convictions, we oppose them.
The muslim minority in your country wants to mix politics with religion and traditionally they have always done so. They want Islam to fill the vacuum you have created.
It's under 5% of muslim minorities which make troubles trying to involve religion with politics, there is no vacuum, large majority of muslims want free religion practices under the actual laws protrection
When you say that Putin tries to undermine US influence, the opposite is true, but the point is that the best US influence underminer is at White House.
Since he's there, the US influence on the world has reached a historic law, under Clinton, we would be friendly arguing, now we have hostile arguments about which of our countries practiced slavery the last one or mistreats its minorities, you and me.
It would be quite the same with many, like the Spanishes which say that without Bush and Aznar's alignment on Bush's Iraq policy, Madrid wouln't have been terrorist attackedThat's what we call "Blame the victim" in the states. (...). We are being attacked, it is not our fault that our attackers may attack someone else they feel may be aligned to us if their primary target is us.
You have been victims of AlQaeda terrorists, search and find your real ennemies instead of forging indistinctly new ones.
Again, the "War on Terrorism" choosing Iraq as a battlefield hasn't improved security for Iraqis nor for the rest of the world, it's obvious except for the blinds.
Right now, because of the US Army being Iraq mud trapped, nobody knows how to withdraw properly, USA has lost prestige, power of deterrence, be on Iran, or North Korea or Sudan and so on, is hatred in most of the muslim world, latin american leaders campaign on anti-americanism, make friend with Castro rather than Bush, these are the facts !
And we can make them sorry they did so!
Is this some kind of your threat against democratically elected leaders which offend your own peculiar sense of bringing democracy and welfare at peoples ?
It's not a matter of Reps or Dems, of anti-americanism, we still stand with the highest respect for President Eisenhower, but compared with Bush, on all the matters, Eisenhower was the day, Bush is the night
The "Bush" you talk about is in part fiction, it doesn't have much to do with the real person who occupies the White House. You should look at other places in the world, not just Bush as the cause of all its troubles.
His politic fuels terrorism
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6074182.stm
Whatever has George Bush done to your country of France/ Has he ever done as much as Hitler has? Most of your objections seem to stem from him having different values from your own, that is no reason to hate him.
You're hating Putin ! To paraphrase you: "Whatever has Putin done to your country of USA/ Has Putin ever done as much as Hitler has?
Each time George Bush angers the muslims, it's more terrorist danger for the USA's allies, and up to now, we are allies, except for the Iraq disagreement, none of your leaders ever complained about our collaboration on fighting AlQaeda and affiliate terrorists.
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When you post, it's really representative of that narrow mind
Disregarding who said that and to whom, I'd like to say something. Too often standing for/believing in something is equated with "a narrow mind." And by the same token being "open-minded" is often mistaken for spineless passivity.
We need to be careful not to make these mistakes.
Il est des moments ou la politesse doit s'effacer devant l'evidence, dear,
and beliefs give in facts
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Why should we be "quaking in our boots" at the mere thought of angering the Muslim Population? The American population has gotten angry on many occasions, but they way we express our anger has not been in launching terrorist attacks, or rioting. We do not riot or kill people over silly things like insults to our religion. That is the problem with the Muslim World. Look no further than Paris, what was all that rioting about, two French Muslims that got electrocuted last year while trying to evade police. I hear the Muslim crowds have torched a bus recently. The problem is not our angering the Muslims, the problem is how the Muslims express their anger. It is not excusable for a Muslim Mob to burn city property in Paris just because someone made them mad. Parisians do not deserve this, and they do not have to live with it.
You're hating Putin ! To paraphrase you: "Whatever has Putin done to your country of USA/ Has Putin ever done as much as Hitler has?
Each time George Bush angers the muslims, it's more terrorist danger for the USA's allies, and up to now, we are allies, except for the Iraq disagreement, none of your leaders ever complained about our collaboration on fighting AlQaeda and affiliate terrorists.
The exact same thing Kruschev has done, try to spread nuclear weapons to our enemies. In the case of Kruschev it was the Cuban Missile Crisis, it the case of Vladimir Putin it was Iran. They have done nothing but obstruct our efforts to curtail Iran's nuclear bomb program, and they have also sold Iran some air defenses that may cost US airmen their lives if ever they get called upon to take out Iran's nuclear bomb production facilities. Supplying our enemies is a hostile and unfriendly act.
Is this some kind of your threat against democratically elected leaders which offend your own peculiar sense of bringing democracy and welfare at peoples ?
If democratically elected Germany were to invade France, wouldn't you want to make them sorry they did so? Democracy makes the people responsible for their own government's behavior. If the German people decide that the French should be German, you would be perfectly within your rights to show the German people the error of their ways. Do you disagree with me in this?
It's under 5% of muslim minorities which make troubles trying to involve religion with politics, there is no vacuum, large majority of muslims want free religion practices under the actual laws protrection
If that 5% causes so much rioting, then that 5% is too much. Other populations don't have the bahaviour problems that many Muslim groups do. If they can't control their 5% then they should not be in France, they should instead stay in their own country and solve their own societal problems rather than bring them to yours. 5% is also enough to threaten free speech with mafia-like threats to newspapers and cartoon editors. You don't have to accept every body who wants asylum, just like you don't have to accept everyone who is trying to escape dealy and contageous diseases in their own country - as they might bring those same diseases to France. I consider terrorists and rioting as a sort of disease. if other countries have these problems, I certainly don't want to bring those same problems to my country.
Georgia detached from USSR without consulting Abkhazia's and South Ossetia's populations which live there since centuries. Independence for the Goergians refused for the minorities.
The Sudetenland Germans also lived their for centuries, that didn't make the Germans murder Jews any less when they invaded Czechoslovakia.
Also Putin has introduced blatant discriminatory practices on Ethnic Georgians living in Russia, he's block money transfers to Georgia and cut off gas supplies their and closed the border. Seems as if Georgians are the new "Jews" of Russia.
I think that if Putin is going to use ethinic Russians as an escuse to invade or topple their neighbors governments, then those governments should save Russia the trouble and expell the ethinic Russians who lived their for centuries. the same goes for Kurds in Turkey, if Iraq breaks up and Kurdistan becomes a reality, then Turkey can make the Ethinic Kurds pack their bags and send them over to their home country of Kurdistan if they don't want to be Turks. Germany had historical designs on France, if it does so again, then its bye bye ethnic Germans, they've caused enough grief by allowing themselves to become Hitlers excuses for conquest, if they suffer from the loss of their homes, too bad, the greater good of their neighbors who don't like tobe invaded and occupied take greater precidence.
Ethnic minorities have cause untold suffering throughout Europe for centuries, they have been the excuses for wars that never seem to end. I would have solved the Northern Ireland problem by relocating ethnic Irish people into Ireland proper, instead of letting the conflict fester. make sure the proper national groups reside within their own borders so they don't remain the cause of festering wars.
I supposed you don't even notice that Poland is now a NATO member, a member of Europe, and de facto, Europe and the French should react against your fantasmatic so called-Putin threat at Poland.
Poland was also allied with France and England prior to World War II, didn't count for much as far as they were concerned, they ended up being occupied by the Soviets. It was the Soviets that ruined the idea of Socialism to me, it was their tendency to impose their ideas on other countries, collectivise their farms and send people who didn't agree with them to Siberia, that makes the left wing ideas suspect to me. The Bolsheviks gave a historical lesson to the World to beware of liberal ideas, and how the ideals of equality and social justice can lead to war, mass murder and violence.
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The Sudetenland Germans also lived their for centuries, that didn't make the Germans murder Jews any less when they invaded Czechoslovakia.
Also Putin has introduced blatant discriminatory practices on Ethnic Georgians living in Russia, he's block money transfers to Georgia and cut off gas supplies their and closed the border. Seems as if Georgians are the new "Jews" of Russia.
I think that if Putin is going to use ethinic Russians as an escuse to invade or topple their neighbors governments, then those governments should save Russia the trouble and expell the ethinic Russians who lived their for centuries.
We are no more in the forties, you should notice it, nor in the seventies with the cold war.
Putin threatens Georgia with economic means as USA and allies threaten North Korea and Iran with economic retaliations, this don't turn Putin into a nazi. I see him as he is, he hasn't any sympathy of mine, he's a tough populist russian leader
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6108950.stm
You'd better realize that most of the former USSR leaders are themselves former apparatchiks witch dress up in democratic clothes but still remain apparatchik minded.
Why should we be "quaking in our boots" at the mere thought of angering the Muslim Population? The American population has gotten angry on many occasions, but they way we express our anger has not been in launching terrorist attacks, or rioting. We do not riot or kill people over silly things like insults to our religion. That is the problem with the Muslim World. Look no further than Paris, what was all that rioting about, two French Muslims that got electrocuted last year while trying to evade police.
The riots in french suburbs have nothing to do with Islam, that's youth riots against police harrassment ! I do work in these suburbs, 100% pure french and non muslims youngsters took part to the riots as well.
This is an economic problem with half of the men and boys under 30 having no jobs in these areas, except for drug dealing; with the babyboomers getting off the jobs market, more of the youngsters find a job, less jobless people, less poverty, less young dealers, less rioters.
Don't mix social problems with ethnic problems.
We have no ethnically pure districts here in France, unlike some places in England or USA, these french surburb areas are ethnically mixed because they are results of cheap housing schemes where appartments are assigned to peoples on waiting lists depending of families incomes and needs, no matter which colours are.
Then in the same flats of houses you find Frenches, animist black Africans, north african Arabs, Chineses, or all originated peoples and teens and youngters gather in local gangs if any, not in ethnic gangs.
Just a hanfull french muslims protested against french news papers which publicated Muhammad's cartoons, some tryed to make a case, but justice dismissed their complains
The exact same thing Kruschev has done, try to spread nuclear weapons to our enemies. In the case of Kruschev it was the Cuban Missile Crisis, it the case of Vladimir Putin it was Iran. They have done nothing but obstruct our efforts to curtail Iran's nuclear bomb program, and they have also sold Iran some air defenses that may cost US airmen their lives if ever they get called upon to take out Iran's nuclear bomb production facilities. Supplying our enemies is a hostile and unfriendly act.
I think that Iran is your ennemy because you said so and support Israel. Iranians just want to try to live, USA and France supported the Saddam's war lead at Iran, for them, we are the ennemy
Is this some kind of your threat against democratically elected leaders which offend your own peculiar sense of bringing democracy and welfare at peoples ?
If democratically elected Germany were to invade France, wouldn't you want to make them sorry they did so? Democracy makes the people responsible for their own government's behavior. If the German people decide that the French should be German, you would be perfectly within your rights to show the German people the error of their ways. Do you disagree with me in this?
Do Chavez, Vázquez or Morales represent a threat at USA, or do they just want to take control of their countrie's economy, which doesn't please you ?
It's under 5% of muslim minorities which make troubles trying to involve religion with politics, there is no vacuum, large majority of muslims want free religion practices under the actual laws protrection
If that 5% causes so much rioting, then that 5% is too much. Other populations don't have the bahaviour problems that many Muslim groups do. If they can't control their 5% then they should not be in France, they should instead stay in their own country and solve their own societal problems rather than bring them to yours. 5% is also enough to threaten free speech with mafia-like threats to newspapers and cartoon editors. You don't have to accept every body who wants asylum, just like you don't have to accept everyone who is trying to escape dealy and contageous diseases in their own country - as they might bring those same diseases to France. I consider terrorists and rioting as a sort of disease. if other countries have these problems, I certainly don't want to bring those same problems to my country.
Peoples born in France are french, quite the same in USA, you don't send muslim black Us offender citizens back to Africa, but to jail, just as we do.
You had, you can have again ethnical riots in USA.
Ethnic minorities have cause untold suffering throughout Europe for centuries, they have been the excuses for wars that never seem to end. I would have solved the Northern Ireland problem by relocating ethnic Irish people into Ireland proper, instead of letting the conflict fester. make sure the proper national groups reside within their own borders so they don't remain the cause of festering wars.
Irishes have no more rights to tell to five centuries english or protestant descendants to go back to England than anybody as well as the opposite.
Intelligence is to live with peoples in regard of each own qualities and flaws
Poland was also allied with France and England prior to World War II, didn't count for much as far as they were concerned, they ended up being occupied by the Soviets. It was the Soviets that ruined the idea of Socialism to me, it was their tendency to impose their ideas on other countries, collectivise their farms and send people who didn't agree with them to Siberia, that makes the left wing ideas suspect to me. The Bolsheviks gave a historical lesson to the World to beware of liberal ideas, and how the ideals of equality and social justice can lead to war, mass murder and violence.
You're mistaking, Great Britain and France declared war at Germany the days following the invasion fo Poland. We didn't win.
And french left wing leaders, President Mitterand was one, didn't not turn France into a stalinist dictatorship and no gulags were created
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The riots in french suburbs have nothing to do with Islam, that's youth riots against police harrassment ! I do work in these suburbs, 100% pure french and non muslims youngsters took part to the riots as well.
This is an economic problem with half of the men and boys under 30 having no jobs in these areas, except for drug dealing; with the babyboomers getting off the jobs market, more of the youngsters find a job, less jobless people, less poverty, less young dealers, less rioters.
It appears then that socialism has not worked for them.
Don't mix social problems with ethnic problems.
We have no ethnically pure districts here in France, unlike some places in England or USA, these french surburb areas are ethnically mixed because they are results of cheap housing schemes where appartments are assigned to peoples on waiting lists depending of families incomes and needs, no matter which colours are.
Then in the same flats of houses you find Frenches, animist black Africans, north african Arabs, Chineses, or all originated peoples and teens and youngters gather in local gangs if any, not in ethnic gangs.
The sad fact is that certain ethnic groups do not get along with others, and you cannot paper over differences. If you assign a Muslim Family to live next to a Jewish one and you do it on a large scale, you are going to get lots of violence against Jews in France.
Just a hanfull french muslims protested against french news papers which publicated Muhammad's cartoons, some tryed to make a case, but justice dismissed their complains
There is something called freedom of speech and believe it or not, someone other than your own government can suppress your freedom of speech. In Sicily, you have something called the "code of silence", meaning that if you rat on the Mob, the Mob will send some thugs to murder you, even though your freedom of speech may be guaranteed by the Italian constitution, that government is not doing enough to safegard that freedom from the "Mafia's Code of Silence" and therefore people's freedom of speech in Italy are being violated due to government inaction in the matter. The Muslims have got something similar with regard to cartoon depictions of their religious leaders in unflattering ways. in a functioning democracy no one should be immune to criticism because of who they are.
If France needs cheap workers, and it seems unable to employ those it has already got, it should look elsewhere for them other than North Africa or the Middle East.
The exact same thing Kruschev has done, try to spread nuclear weapons to our enemies. In the case of Kruschev it was the Cuban Missile Crisis, it the case of Vladimir Putin it was Iran. They have done nothing but obstruct our efforts to curtail Iran's nuclear bomb program, and they have also sold Iran some air defenses that may cost US airmen their lives if ever they get called upon to take out Iran's nuclear bomb production facilities. Supplying our enemies is a hostile and unfriendly act.
I think that Iran is your ennemy because you said so and support Israel. Iranians just want to try to live, USA and France supported the Saddam's war lead at Iran, for them, we are the ennemy
Iran is our enemy because they took American hostage in 1979, and they have not appologized for it or made reparations. They still have that same regime that they put into power while they took of diplomatic personel hoatage for 444 days! I have not forgiven them for that, and they have not done anything to make me consider forgiving them. Also I do not believe in abandonng our allies, and Israel is an Ally, and so long as Iran is determined to wipe them off the map they will be our enemy. I will not stand aside to let them kill Jews.
Is this some kind of your threat against democratically elected leaders which offend your own peculiar sense of bringing democracy and welfare at peoples ?
If democratically elected Germany were to invade France, wouldn't you want to make them sorry they did so? Democracy makes the people responsible for their own government's behavior. If the German people decide that the French should be German, you would be perfectly within your rights to show the German people the error of their ways. Do you disagree with me in this?
Do Chavez, Vázquez or Morales represent a threat at USA, or do they just want to take control of their countrie's economy, which doesn't please you ?
There actions can certainly result in the deaths of American citizens, I don't think they can defeat the United States in an outright conflict, but I do think we should have something to say when they take actions that could threaten the lives of our citizens down the road. If Chavez helps the Iranians develop nuclear weapons of finances their operations, that can result in Americans being killed, it might not result in their defeating the USA, but I'd rather not have that war in the first place. Thus so long as Chavez is working toward making the World a more dangerous place for us, i would consider him to be our enemy.
It's under 5% of muslim minorities which make troubles trying to involve religion with politics, there is no vacuum, large majority of muslims want free religion practices under the actual laws protrection
If that 5% causes so much rioting, then that 5% is too much. Other populations don't have the bahaviour problems that many Muslim groups do. If they can't control their 5% then they should not be in France, they should instead stay in their own country and solve their own societal problems rather than bring them to yours. 5% is also enough to threaten free speech with mafia-like threats to newspapers and cartoon editors. You don't have to accept every body who wants asylum, just like you don't have to accept everyone who is trying to escape dealy and contageous diseases in their own country - as they might bring those same diseases to France. I consider terrorists and rioting as a sort of disease. if other countries have these problems, I certainly don't want to bring those same problems to my country.
Peoples born in France are french, quite the same in USA, you don't send muslim black Us offender citizens back to Africa, but to jail, just as we do.
You had, you can have again ethnical riots in USA.
Jailing is expensive, and if they insist that all French Citizens be Muslim or they refuse to adapt to French Culture, I would ship them out. If in their hearts and minds they are nt French regardless of which country they were born in, they do not belong there.
Ethnic minorities have cause untold suffering throughout Europe for centuries, they have been the excuses for wars that never seem to end. I would have solved the Northern Ireland problem by relocating ethnic Irish people into Ireland proper, instead of letting the conflict fester. make sure the proper national groups reside within their own borders so they don't remain the cause of festering wars.
Irishes have no more rights to tell to five centuries english or protestant descendants to go back to England than anybody as well as the opposite.
Intelligence is to live with peoples in regard of each own qualities and flawsThat is the ideal solution, but it has not worked, you can't expect just to wave your hands and say, "Now get along children," and expect them to listen to you. I have no patience for generations long conflicts, I don't like to see them fester indefinitely. If it requires forced relocations to stop these conflicts the long term gains in peace outweigh the short term pain and hardship imposed by these forced locations. I remind you that many Germans were forced to relocate after World War II, I don't see why this solution can not be applied to Northern Irish people who do not get along, or to the Palestinians for that matter. Who's cause is right or wrong is not as important as ending the conflict and moving on. If injustices are committed in this, well how much injustice is there in permitting a generations long conflict to fester and make victims out of new generations of people that are born into it. Isn't it better if they are born somewhere else and are allowed to live in peace?
Poland was also allied with France and England prior to World War II, didn't count for much as far as they were concerned, they ended up being occupied by the Soviets. It was the Soviets that ruined the idea of Socialism to me, it was their tendency to impose their ideas on other countries, collectivise their farms and send people who didn't agree with them to Siberia, that makes the left wing ideas suspect to me. The Bolsheviks gave a historical lesson to the World to beware of liberal ideas, and how the ideals of equality and social justice can lead to war, mass murder and violence.
You're mistaking, Great Britain and France declared war at Germany the days following the invasion fo Poland. We didn't win.
And french left wing leaders, President Mitterand was one, didn't not turn France into a stalinist dictatorship and no gulags were createdSocialist revolutions have produced a number of results, some of them were tyrannies, and others were simply inefficiently run democracies. Part of the Muslim riots in France are due to the socialist economy's inability to provide jobs for them as you said. Socialism is simply when the state does things that private enterprise ought to do. In a purely socialist system the government controls all forms of employment, it does not levy taxes as it simply finances itself from the profits of all the goods and services it offers from all the people it employs offering them. Government doesn't compete against itself and it has laws protecting it from competions and it takes care of its compedators by simply arresting them for violating the law or by not permmiting them to ship their goods into the country. therefore more efficient means of doing things in government run industries are not sufficintly appreciated and not automatically impements as a way or reducing costs., since their primary concern is emplyment and not production, this produces shortages of good and lines at the stores. Customer service is rather spotty and people who work their are not under pressure for fear of losing their jobs. If customers annoy them, they just tell them to go away and they close the store for a lunch break. i wish I had a job like that, but not many of such jobs are offered in the Capitalist system.
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If you assign a Muslim Family to live next to a Jewish one and you do it on a large scale, you are going to get lots of violence against Jews in France.
Missed ! You don't know how things happened here. The Jews in Paris were the first to gather as a communitarian society, the first to dress up with kippas and recognizable community clothes, up to the eighties, they didn't show they were Jews, they are partly responsible for the muslim response with dressing themselves up to show they are muslims
Socialist revolutions have produced a number of results, some of them were tyrannies, and others were simply inefficiently run democracies. Part of the Muslim riots in France are due to the socialist economy's inability to provide jobs for them as you said. Socialism is simply when the state does things that private enterprise ought to do.
Riots happened under a rightist regime whose economic efficiency hasn't been better than socialists, even worse.
Since we have not anymore a socialist governement, employment rate didn't improve by other means than retreating babyboomers as right now.
Private enterprises do take care only on profits, you see in USA that almost no investments have been done on electric supply for years and that states are more interested in supplying cheap power than private enterprises, because private electricity supply relies either on big monopolies, either on small ones, as well as railways networks.
We had a very performing electricity public service which supplied France with the cheapest electrity in Europe, and a governmental responsability on nuclear safety. We have the lowest confidence on private managers which will choose benefits rather than suppluying safe and cheap electricity.
If France needs cheap workers, and it seems unable to employ those it has already got, it should look elsewhere for them other than North Africa or the Middle East.
You'd better read news instead of saying false things, we are part of Europe, and cheap workers are now easterner Europeans. The ones coming from North Africa are clandestine, just as you have mex clandestines.
There actions can certainly result in the deaths of American citizens,
This is again your premptive theory, as long as these leaders have done nothing that threats USA or US citizens, they have the right to lead their own policy
if they insist that all French Citizens be Muslim or they refuse to adapt to French Culture, I would ship them out. If in their hearts and minds they are nt French regardless of which country they were born in, they do not belong there.
If they insist, they will be broken, but that's a fantasm of yours, old Arabs which have lived in France for years are happy to be abble to drink a beer in the suburbs cafés, women are happy to call on french justice if harrassed by men, we have broken christian church power, we aren't ready to let Muslims or protestants dictate our laws.
By the way, our rate of prisonners in jails is much lower than yours, if you think that prison prices are to high.
I don't see why this solution can not be applied (...)to the Palestinians for that matter.
http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/asie/imag … juives.jpg
This is to remind you who's stealing territories on the palestinian soil, red and pink on the map, and who should be displaced !
You do support stealers !
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If you assign a Muslim Family to live next to a Jewish one and you do it on a large scale, you are going to get lots of violence against Jews in France.
Missed ! You don't know how things happened here. The Jews in Paris were the first to gather as a communitarian society, the first to dress up with kippas and recognizable community clothes, up to the eighties, they didn't show they were Jews, they are partly responsible for the muslim response with dressing themselves up to show they are muslims
I know Parisians are very fashion-consious, but what does clothing have to do with it, Jews have had no history of burning buses and cars or rioting have they?
Socialist revolutions have produced a number of results, some of them were tyrannies, and others were simply inefficiently run democracies. Part of the Muslim riots in France are due to the socialist economy's inability to provide jobs for them as you said. Socialism is simply when the state does things that private enterprise ought to do.
Riots happened under a rightist regime whose economic efficiency hasn't been better than socialists, even worse.
Since we have not anymore a socialist governement, employment rate didn't improve by other means than retreating babyboomers as right now.
Excuse me, but I beg to differ, the Chirac Government has not been very capitalist oriented, it does not choose to call itself "socialist". Chirac's brand of conservatism has more to do with who he hates as opposed promoting market-oriented economic reforms. Unfortunately the Right-wing in many parts of Europe has been defined rather negatively by who it hates rather than what it wants to do to improve things. This LePen guy is a case in point, if he would promote Barry Goldwater conservatism rather than just try to run various minority groups out of France and do nothing else, then perhaps he might have gained more traction. For the Right wing in France, its easier to oppose than to propose.
The American Right Wing gave up its bigotry some time ago, they are opposed to welfare and handouts to minority groups now, rather than to blatanly discriminate against them as they have in generations past. Right now the rightwing promotes market based solutions to social problem. The rightwing in Europe is more busy looking for enemies, including those Americans, rather than seeking ways to solve society's problems and to improve the economy. The one thing that Holds LePen back is his antisemitism, and his franco-chauvanism, and their idea of who french people should be. All I'm saying is that people who are loyal to France, and who are loyal to some foreign power or group instad should be shipped out, not because of their dress, but because of their disruptive behavior, such as Bus burnings.
Private enterprises do take care only on profits, you see in USA that almost no investments have been done on electric supply for years and that states are more interested in supplying cheap power than private enterprises, because private electricity supply relies either on big monopolies, either on small ones, as well as railways networks.
We had a very performing electricity public service which supplied France with the cheapest electrity in Europe, and a governmental responsability on nuclear safety. We have the lowest confidence on private managers which will choose benefits rather than suppluying safe and cheap electricity.In America, we get to choose our power companies, they provide power to the electrical grid and their customers take power off the grid. the only physical monopoly is the grid itself, and that is maintained in much the same way that a highway system is, while private trucking companies operate off of it. If France is supplying electricity to its customers at below cost, then that only means that you are paying for the electricity in other ways other than through your electric bill, maybe via taxes for instance. A compedative system does provide incentives to producers to reduce costs. The customer goes to the cheapest source, and those that can't price their products compedatively go out of business.
If France needs cheap workers, and it seems unable to employ those it has already got, it should look elsewhere for them other than North Africa or the Middle East.
You'd better read news instead of saying false things, we are part of Europe, and cheap workers are now easterner Europeans. The ones coming from North Africa are clandestine, just as you have mex clandestines.
Then you can ship them out, they don't exactly blend in you know.
There actions can certainly result in the deaths of American citizens,
This is again your premptive theory, as long as these leaders have done nothing that threats USA or US citizens, they have the right to lead their own policy
A sensible foreign policy. If they mind their own business, we mind ours. Countries that threaten US citizens either directly or indirectly aren't minding their own business and therefore we will tend to preempt where necessary.
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I know Parisians are very fashion-consious, but what does clothing have to do with it, Jews have had no history of burning buses and cars or rioting have they?
Please, stop it with the press reports by sensasonalism hungry so-called reporters.
I go and teach science for kids in the socially ill Paris suburbs, I tell you that riots are mainly anticop led by jobless mixed ethnic guys
Excuse me, but I beg to differ, the Chirac Government has not been very capitalist oriented, it does not choose to call itself "socialist". Chirac's brand of conservatism has more to do with who he hates as opposed promoting market-oriented economic reforms.
You're wrong, each times he tryed, he's been pushed backward by massive rejection from population, ready for civil disobedience and huge strikes.
A sensible foreign policy. If they mind their own business, we mind ours. Countries that threaten US citizens either directly or indirectly aren't minding their own business and therefore we will tend to preempt where. necessary.
Then, with Iraq, the right target was missed, as you see now, there were more dangerous ennemies to contain
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I know Parisians are very fashion-consious, but what does clothing have to do with it, Jews have had no history of burning buses and cars or rioting have they?
Please, stop it with the press reports by sensasonalism hungry so-called reporters.
I go and teach science for kids in the socially ill Paris suburbs, I tell you that riots are mainly anticop led by jobless mixed ethnic guysExcuse me, but I beg to differ, the Chirac Government has not been very capitalist oriented, it does not choose to call itself "socialist". Chirac's brand of conservatism has more to do with who he hates as opposed promoting market-oriented economic reforms.
You're wrong, each times he tryed, he's been pushed backward by massive rejection from population, ready for civil disobedience and huge strikes.
A sensible foreign policy. If they mind their own business, we mind ours. Countries that threaten US citizens either directly or indirectly aren't minding their own business and therefore we will tend to preempt where. necessary.
Then, with Iraq, the right target was missed, as you see now, there were more dangerous ennemies to contain
There always are, and their are always second guessers like yourself. When you preempt a threat, you never know the true magnitude of that threat since you never allowed it to manifest itself.
Suppose you were a soldier in World War I fighting to drive the Germans out of France who have invaded your country. You are dug in the trench lines, and their is this German corporal that is shooting at you. You shoot this corporal and meanwhile a rocket is launched from nearby it goes up and kills a dozen french soldiers, your commanding officer chews you out for shooting that corporal instead of the guy who launched the rocket who was considered the greater threat. Later on after some bloody fighting you overrun the enemy's lines and you find the body of that corporal you killed, A Corporal Adolf Hitler. In this alternate history you preempted a threat that you would never know about.
Of course Saddam Hussein is a lesser threat because we defeated him, in that we were successful. Saddam Hussein is not as great a threat as Al Qaeda because we defeated Saddam Hussein in this war, we have some other problems in Iraq, but Saddam Hussein's regime is toppled and gone, and because of us, it stands no chance of coming back. Iraq is a mess, that is true, but that is because the Iraq people are not helping us out. We are giving them plenty of help, but they are not helping themselves or their country, they seem to like killing each other, and each other is mostly who they kill, not us. The blood running in their streets is their fault. If surprised they would choose to ruin their country just to defeat the Bush Administration. Now if Bush wanted to save France, would you try to distroy it just because you didn't like Bush? That is the sort of stupidity we are dealing with in Iraq? History may write that the Iraqis were a bunch of dumb dumbs who the US tried to help but who instead prefered to destroy their country with factionalism, the big winners out of this will of course be the Kurds who will finally get an independent Kurdistan because of us. the Kurds have never bothered US troops, so I think they deserve at least that. Let the other Arabs who just want to fight Bush to make the Liberals happy, get what they deserve as well.
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Tom: I suggest we cool it until the events of this coming week have run their course. Then tackle these topics again, when we know the direction things will have taken, because they're sure to changed pretty drastically even in so short a time. How about it?
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It is probabily best especially now that Saddam will get to taste one of his own execution chambers.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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And you hear the cry coming from Europe, "Spare that dictator!"
Perhaps they are hoping that the current government will be overthrown and Saddam Hussein reinstalled as that nation's dictator. So long as Saddam is alive, it remains a possibility that he could be busted out of jail by one militia or another.
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And you hear the cry coming from Europe, "Spare that dictator!"
Perhaps they are hoping that the current government will be overthrown and Saddam Hussein reinstalled as that nation's dictator. So long as Saddam is alive, it remains a possibility that he could be busted out of jail by one militia or another.
It is simple we are against the death penalty and as it is part of our democratic process so is our goverment. Tom you have put forward the idea that we are in Iraq to give them democracy well in Europe that means no death penalty.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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Lenin was not given the death penalty when he was arrested, spared by the Russian Czar who thought he was being humane.
Hitler was not given the death penalty when he was arrested.
The risk in allowing Saddam Hussein to live is that someday he may get out of jail and become dictator again, and perhaps seek revenge against those who jailed him and spared his life, by torturing them to death.
Is there the slightest doubt at all that Saddam Hussein is guilty?
Is their the slightest chance at all that by executing him, they may be executing an innocent person who was framed?
So whats the problem with the death penalty if their is no risk in killing the innocent?
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Lenin was not given the death penalty when he was arrested, spared by the Russian Czar who thought he was being humane.
Hitler was not given the death penalty when he was arrested.
The risk in allowing Saddam Hussein to live is that someday he may get out of jail and become dictator again, and perhaps seek revenge against those who jailed him and spared his life, by torturing them to death.
Is there the slightest doubt at all that Saddam Hussein is guilty?
Is their the slightest chance at all that by executing him, they may be executing an innocent person who was framed?
So whats the problem with the death penalty if their is no risk in killing the innocent?
The risk is simple you will be making him into a martyr to the 20% of Iraqs population who believe everything he says. It also appears to be revenge rather than justice and that is something that even Machiavelli warned us against. The best means to deal with Saddam is to let him wither like Napoleon far away getting older and more feable and to show the Iraqi people look there was this great leader, human, old and utterly spent. No palaces no grand banquets only ridicule and the knowledge for him it was all for nothing he will die and not even get a grave just to disapear a footnote in history.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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The risk is simple you will be making him into a martyr to the 20% of Iraqs population who believe everything he says. It also appears to be revenge rather than justice and that is something that even Machiavelli warned us against. The best means to deal with Saddam is to let him wither like Napoleon far away getting older and more feable and to show the Iraqi people look there was this great leader, human, old and utterly spent. No palaces no grand banquets only ridicule and the knowledge for him it was all for nothing he will die and not even get a grave just to disapear a footnote in history.
You do realize that Napoleon is a horrible example.
If the Allies killed him when they had the chance they would have prevented a hell of a lot of bloodshed.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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