Jesus never existed internet radio talk

flashgordon · 2006-09-01 12:13:25

http://www.infidelguy.com/

the truth hurts!

RobS · 2006-09-04 08:07:57

I was never able to find a simple statement of what the guy believes (or doesn't believe), but if he is claiming Jesus never existed as a historical figure, that's an old idea of 19th century biblical scholars that is not taken seriously today. Jesus almost certainly did exist as a historical figure. That is not the same thing as to say that He was the Christ of faith, however. The "historical Jesus" scholars are quite skeptical of that, and then there's the problem of which "Christ of faith" one speaks about.

-- RobS

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-04 14:40:24

Does it really matter? Let people believe what they want to believe, life is hard enough I think. If it makes a person's life easier to believe in a religion, so long as he's not bothering anyone else, why not just leave him alone?
I don't see why there is a web site pushing atheism, I just don't get it. Whether you believe in God or you don't your still going to die. Either your going to believe you going to the eternal afterlife and that makes dying easier or you believe your going to turn into a rotting piece of meat.

If you believe in something or not doesn't matter, or maybe it just makes it easier to grow old knowing that your time on Earth is almost over. There is evidence that people who believe in something tend to live longer that people who don't and who spend the rest of their lives worrying about dying.

If someone doesn't believe in the afterlife, that person would be less likely to fight for his country and freedoms and more likely to make someone else fight for those same freedoms, as this life is all he has, and he's not going to squander it.

So long as we have soldiers in the Army, I'm not going to question their belief in God, because they are doing something I want them to do, its as simple as that. People who hold life too dear, don't make very good soldiers.

flashgordon · 2006-09-11 23:39:25

sorry, but people playing vagueness games just because they feel like it is the road to nazyism; I've seen it in my family; my grandparents certainly seem nice, but they're kids turned into fear mongering, social game players who just have to find something wrong; i mean, the first thing that they ever do upon meeting them is to find something wrong with you. This is not spirituality; or, if it is; it is the spirituality of punks who cuss each other out for the fun of it.

I found what little the talk show said to be worthwhile(very disappointed). I found out about these sun gods a year or so ago and dived into the literature; b.s. this stuff is 1900's; the christians burned as much of the evidence against them as they could; why do you think they found the gnostic gospels stuffed in a jar and then barried in egyptian sand? Because the Roman empire once converted went on a book burning spree including the killing of Hypatia around 300 A.D. and the burning and destruction of the Library of Alexandria which makes all the classical literature we still have just mere scraps.

Jesus never existed; the Jews said so; that is why they were made to suffer; that is why the nazies tried to exterminate them; to rid the world of direct evidence that Jesus never existed.

Jesus never existed; i'd have to go refind my evidence, but I have confirmed first century writers as saying 'isn't out sun god just like yours?(apollo, mithra and the likes). I've got quotes from Philo a Jew who lived before and after the supposed life of Jesus Christ who never mentions him but does mention how 'we took the best(according to him) of all previous religions to construct a new religion.' There is no historical evidence for Jesus Christ; not even pictures on any christian catacombs; Jesus Christ came late to England around 600 A.D. He came even later to American indians, Australians, Eskimoes and the orient.

flashgordon · 2006-09-11 23:41:42

"Jesus almost certainly did exist as a historical figure."

That is an amazing statement of non-scientific thinking. Anybody know what's wrong here?

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-12 08:33:38

Lack of evidence is not evidence for absense. Why is it so important to you to prove that Jesus did not exist? Something evidently did cause Christianity to happen, part of that something may be in the form a of a person named Jesus, that seems the most likely explaination at any rate. Do you think someone just made him up? And if so, who was that someone? Do you think all the Pagan priests of Rome got together and decided to make up a monotheistic religion? That they all agreed to abandon their faith and adopt this new one, and as the discussion wore on, do you thing they decided to make it an offshoot of Judaism as Judaism has the useful properties of Monotheism that is so very useful in getting Roman citizens to obey the law? Paganism allowed for too much difference in opinion and even the gods can be wrong, as they were not perfect and they were powerful, so you had to listen to them some of the time, but no all powerful nor always right. Under the Pagan religion, a Roman citizen can easily say, Jupiter is wrong and he will not be arrested for it. the Roman attitude was, if you insult Jupiter, then its just between you and Jupiter, but in the meantime you better stay out of our town as we don't want Jupiters wrath upon you also falling on our town as well because your in it. There was no Roman Inquisition for the Gods, if you insulted Caesar that was a different story, but if the Romans felt that if you insulted the Gods, the Gods themselves will get even with you in their own way. You respected the gods because of their power over nature not because they were always right.

With monotheism, God is always right according to the religion, the idea of blasphemy becomes popular and it becomes the government's job to enforce religious law and to disallow anyone from doubting God, it is a kind of thought police, but I don't believe the Romans just made up Christianity and wrote up a backstory for it.

flashgordon · 2006-09-12 13:18:36

it's called the pursuit of truth which only a true scientist would know about; the rest of your responce is a true mess of thought which would take a lot more time to disect; you have heard of the conferences of necine havn't you? That's just for starters not to mention you ignored points and facts I made;

flashgordon · 2006-09-12 14:00:39

why criticize religion? Why do the religious refuse to consider dynamic evolution for their static spirituality? That is why we try to show the anti rational religions wrong.

As for 'why would I think that they would make up and combine ideas?' Because that is what they do! For instance! Lord God is Adonai Elohim; Elohim is the star gods of the Phonecians(an underrated culture in the evolution of civilization) and Adonai is the god of the Summarians; they(the jews) just 'combined' the two and said it was their own. Proof that that is how they come up with their various gods. God(s) are just the algebraic x standing for 'i don't know' which was the best theory the ancients could come up with till they saw the power of experiment and mathematics in 600 B.C. through 300 A.D.

Not to mention everything else I've already mentioned that goes unnoted;

C M Edwards · 2006-09-13 06:53:49

"Jesus almost certainly did exist as a historical figure."
That is an amazing statement of non-scientific thinking. Anybody know what's wrong here?

Yes. Clearly, because Jesus did not publish anything, he perished.

Let those who have ears to hear listen.

C M Edwards · 2006-09-13 07:15:52

Why do the religious refuse to consider dynamic evolution for their static spirituality? That is why we try to show the anti rational religions wrong.

Actually, that's a good point. Take Christiantity, for example. Centuries of Christian theologians have insisted that spirituality is not static. Virtually the entirety of christianity claims their religion came about as a consequence of a new covenant, in which God essentially renegotiated his contract. As a religion, it has been evolving since its formal inception, and there is a great deal of theology and philosophy acknowledging and exploring this fact. It's not difficult to argue that the religion that spawned the first christians was evolving even before that.

And there are also the offshoots of Christianity that refuse to acknowledge this. They do not know the history of their religion; neither do they care. They have as much contempt for history as they do for creation. They make an easy target for folks like your "Infidel Guy" - but that's all right. They need someone to take potshots at them once in a while, IMHO. Such evolutionary pressures keep the meme pool strong.

Belinda · 2006-09-13 15:27:50

If someone doesn't believe in the afterlife, that person would be less likely to fight for his country and freedoms and more likely to make someone else fight for those same freedoms, as this life is all he has, and he's not going to squander it.

Conversely, if someone doesn't believe in the afterlife, that person would be more likely to defend his/ her country and freedoms for a better deal in this one.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-14 08:29:19

it's called the pursuit of truth which only a true scientist would know about; the rest of your responce is a true mess of thought which would take a lot more time to disect; you have heard of the conferences of necine havn't you? That's just for starters not to mention you ignored points and facts I made;

There is no way to find out the truth. You can doubt the miracles if you want, but their is no way to find out whether or not Jesus existed. Christianity had an enourmous impact on the West and the Roman Empire, and they are the ones who kept the historical records. If Jesus existed, they would be very interested in saying so, if he did not exist, then they'll be the very last to admit it. There is simply no unbaised source of record keeping. If records of Jesus's birth are not found, it doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't born, it merely means that no records were found. Something happened to create this religion, but it was so long ago, that we have no means of finding out exactly what it was. I don't know what you can do, do you have a time machine? That would be the only way to find out for sure.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-14 08:35:19

why criticize religion? Why do the religious refuse to consider dynamic evolution for their static spirituality? That is why we try to show the anti rational religions wrong.
As for 'why would I think that they would make up and combine ideas?' Because that is what they do! For instance! Lord God is Adonai Elohim; Elohim is the star gods of the Phonecians(an underrated culture in the evolution of civilization) and Adonai is the god of the Summarians; they(the jews) just 'combined' the two and said it was their own. Proof that that is how they come up with their various gods. God(s) are just the algebraic x standing for 'i don't know' which was the best theory the ancients could come up with till they saw the power of experiment and mathematics in 600 B.C. through 300 A.D.
Not to mention everything else I've already mentioned that goes unnoted;

That has little to say about whether Jesus existed, there may have been such a person, and you can't disporve that he existed. Whether he did the stuff the Bible said he did is a matter of debate. I believe there are Roman Records of his execution, beyond that, who can say. Why is this so important to you, what do you hope to accomplish with this? People who believe in God or Jesus don't need proof, it is a matter of faith. Proving it is impossible as their are no independent records, and as their are no independent records disproving it is just as impossible, you can doubt the miracles, many people do, but you've set out on a much more difficult goal of disproving Jesus existed, and I don't think there is any way you can.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-14 08:43:53

If someone doesn't believe in the afterlife, that person would be less likely to fight for his country and freedoms and more likely to make someone else fight for those same freedoms, as this life is all he has, and he's not going to squander it.
Conversely, if someone doesn't believe in the afterlife, that person would be more likely to defend his/ her country and freedoms for a better deal in this one.

Why? Defending your country requires putting your life in danger. Life is a precious commodity to someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, I doubt he would throw his life away for any reason. For a religious fanatic, its a no-brainer, they figure they're going to die sometime, it might as well be to achieve some useful goal for society. Alot of soldiers have religion, just ask them, I'll bet very few are atheists. Atheists value their own lives highest of all, as existence is all there is. I don't see very many of them stepping up and volunteering to be a dead piece of meat. I'm not saying their cowards, I'm just saying that logically you would expect them to be very careful and not to take unnecessary chances if life is all there is. Maybe some atheists don't think very much before risking their lives, I can't say very much about unthoughtful atheists, maybe they don't realize the danger, maybe their minds and clouded and distracted by other thoughts, its hard to say why they do what they do, but I don't believe that because they are atheists that they would be more likely to risk their lives and not less so.

C M Edwards · 2006-09-14 08:55:54

Interestingly, we do have independent confirmation that Pontias Pilate existed, and was in Jerusalem at the time. Surviving Roman records from the time describe him favorably as "cruel but just".

No mention of JC and the boys, though...

C M Edwards · 2006-09-14 09:06:43

Personally, I don't think Socrates ever existed either. He never published anything more than Jesus did, and like Jesus, the only record of him is in books and plays written by his buddies.

I suspect Plato and Aristophanes got together over a beer one day and made him up.

flashgordon · 2006-09-14 13:15:27

when there's no evidence, then don't assume unless you have a real reason to assume like Pauli did with the neutrino; while jesus believers are making a big assumption, the mythologists have all kinds of evidence for religions being 'made up.'

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-14 13:29:00

But your tryimg to prove someone did not exist. How many citizens of the Roman Empire were there that we have no records of now? Did everyone have a social security number back then? No. Did the Romans keep meticulous records of each one of its subjects? No. Does that mean that is the Romans did not keep written documents of a person, that person did not exist? No. In point of fact, Jesus onloy became famous after his death, the people living at the time he was alive had no reason to consider him to be a person of any particular import. But why do you care? There is nothing you can do to disprove his existance, his existance is as equally valid as his non-existance and you can't prove it one way or another. The Ancient Romans kept no records of North America either, does that mean the continent didn't exist back then either?

flashgordon · 2006-09-14 21:09:46

I care because people refuse to reason because of Christianity; i should not of had to explain that;

Beyond that, a man walking on water and performing all manner of miracles would of had statues and pictures made everywhere; the Roman empire wouldn't even had thought twice of giving him full respects; a god would not have to go some crazy lengths to prove he's a son of god; he could just make everybody believe and we wouldn't have to go through hell on earth.

C M Edwards · 2006-09-15 08:06:41

I care because people refuse to reason because of Christianity; i should not of had to explain that;

I wish that wasn't true. Being christian is no excuse to leave your brain in the church coat room. But unfortunately, this insidious idea is coming back into favor with many religious sects of all flavors. The only defense I can offer is that atheists aren't the only people who have to deal with it.

Beyond that, a man walking on water and performing all manner of miracles would of had statues and pictures made everywhere;

I agree. If you would like to see some, I direct you to the churches and museums of modern day Rome where 2000 year old examples are on display and they are still making new statues and pictures of the fellow in question.

...a god would not have to go some crazy lengths to prove he's a son of god; he could just make everybody believe and we wouldn't have to go through hell on earth.

Being a dyed-in-the-wool deist, I won't go into discussion of what a god should or should not do, and you've already indicated your preference on being forced to believe. But I have to disagree with the assertion that we're all going through hell on Earth because of Jesus. We're going through earth on earth.

We've been warned of hell, and told of heaven, but we haven't been ordered to go to either one and won't get there for some time even if we go. IMHO, heaven and hell should not be anyone's deities. If hell even looks at you funny, turn your back on it. If heaven blocks your path to God, burn it. We suffer here, but Earth isn't all that much worse than heaven - God is with us in both places. If service to God is worthwhile, then it will have value right here on Earth. Heaven isn't a cosmic paycheck for services rendered, and is only worthy of respect because it is a gift offered by God. If He were not with us there, too, heaven wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-15 11:38:40

Why focus on Christianity in particular? There are many other religions that inhibit reason to a greater extent. I believe some features of Christianity allowed for greater technological progress than occured in some other parts of the world.

I also think that some other religions make fertile ground for terrorism, much more so that Christianity. These other religions main adherents are in third world countries, so we aren't allowed to criticise them, because it is so politically incorrect, they are poor for god sake, and lets give them a break and not criticise their religion. we'll we suffered because a third world religion proved to be a fertile field for gaining terrorist converts, and what happened in 2001 is evidence for that, so before you focus your crosshairs of Christianity, why don't you look at some of the World's other religions and see how much problems they cause for humanity.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-16 01:42:40

One more thing to add, if you are an atheist and you attack mostly christianity, how do you know you aren't just paving the way for Islam. Islam is making inroads in Europe because no matter what evidence to present that Chritianity is false, people still want to believe in something. A lot of people have a heck of a difficult time facing death, if you deconstruct christianity, then they'll just find them some other religion that promises them eteral reward in the hereafter, and maybe it will be a more destructive religion that Christianity is.

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