What should be the focus of human space society/exploration?

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-14 21:26:47

GCNRevenger,

I think we are talking about to different levels of Budgets and the projects involved for the space infrastructure development from these budgets. I think you are talking about a NASA Style budget limited in many ways. Where We are talking about a budget of several times that per year in the order of US$130 billion with nearly 60% going to building infrastructure (includes vessel construction) per year. ( US$78-85 Billion)

Dook,

I know you love star trek or you wouldn't keep referencing it, you must be a closet trekkie and only coming out on here. When you are look to move large qualities of resources you need a building program like Boeing or Airbus for small, medium, large, and custom vessel construction. You need the mineral resources to build and mantain these vessels ans well provide the resources for rapid development on the surface bases.

Oooo, regarding the remote laser mobile platform then you should read up on solar cell array technologies , high energy storage capacitors and effective range (up to 1000 miles ) of lasers for heating up fuel tanks of spacecrafts or look at apollo 13 incident it doesn't need a massive laser to make conbustable elements react. Anyhow I was trying to illustrate that no nation would allow someone to stop them landing on the moon period.

You both are thing in the exploration frame of mind and not in the colonization frame of mind thus you stop short of the real objects of humanity. Because you only work with the limitation and not try to improve the limits to improve the solutions.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-14 22:43:14

No Tristar, I think you are unable to find a way to refute my logic, and are trying to co-opt me into agreeing with you.

Your "level" is simply silly, most of all because you don't have reasons (because there isn't one) for all this massive space industry, particularly for ship construction.

"high energy storage capacitors and effective range (up to 1000 miles ) of lasers for heating up fuel tanks of spacecrafts or look at apollo 13 incident it doesn't need a massive laser to make conbustable elements react"

What in the heck are you talking about? A Commie laser blasted Apollo-XIII's CM?

"You both are thing in the exploration frame of mind and not in the colonization frame"

No, we are thinking ahead. The problem is, you are thinking ahead but deliberatly avoiding the why and the how.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-15 00:54:19

GCNRevenger

Why ?

I and alot of other people think that we need to move forward with large scale immigration into space for the human race. Once you make that decision (Colonization) then all the problems start to come up that are so different and on a scale ( we haven't seen on earth ) that exploration solutions are useless other than for prospector phase . Yes, its a hostile envionment in space on other planetary bodies, but so are places on earth. We need to expand our horizons and space can prove the catalyst for that process to our movement upwards towards our future.

The How ?

Yes that is a valid question, but if I provide THE ANSWER because all problems have solutions ----- the means to develop on a large scale space industry and budget to match ----- by giving the answer in this forum then I will be opening myself up to another competitor completing the answer before us, also that competitor might not have the foresight to use the income for space advancement. If you don't like that answer i have given well I am sorry , but the facts are we are competing organizations in the world that doesn't provide the second placed a chance.

Examples about nations interests : ( over the last few messages)

Disregard the Apollo 13 Example because do don't understand and I am not going to expand it to you again as well explaining it to dook, again.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-15 07:27:24

"with large scale immigration into space for the human race"

Where? "Space" contains lots of places to go, but only a few of them are viable. You have thus far been banging your drum that all sites should be settled reguardless of the facts on the ground, and you have not given a reason why.

"the means to develop on a large scale space industry and budget to match"

This is a why too. Why do we need large scale space industry? Particularly "funded" (read: subsidized) by tax dollars, which will likly never turn a profit otherwise?

"by giving the answer in this forum then I will be opening myself up to another competitor completing the answer before us"

Dude. Whatever. Unless your plans include an anti-gravity engine, you are just ranting.

"but the facts are we are competing organizations in the world that doesn't provide the second placed a chance"

Like with Ricky and the ISA perhaps?

"Disregard the Apollo 13 Example because do don't understand and I am not going to expand it to you again as well explaining it to dook, again."

My, testy are we? Come on, did the Commies shoot down Apollo-XIII with their Red Star Death Ray or not?

RobS · 2005-12-15 11:07:36

I'm in favor of settlement, too, but my bank account currently has about $150 in it, and that's a few hundred billion dollars short. So if I write a check to pay for colonization it will bounce. I have yet to see anyone offer a way of doing it for less, and I don't see any government or combination of governments willing to foot the bill. So I am betting on exploration for now, because it will pay for the enabling technologies for settlement down the road. Why, I suspect in a century or two it will even make it possible for a few utopian kooks to get to Mars.

-- RobS

SpaceNut · 2005-12-15 11:13:27

I guess a will work sign for space trip to mars for life and servitude of first mars born, to create a base probably would not be enough either.

Even the suicide mission discusion only put the cost some where near 1 billion possibly less if you used junk yard parts to make your ship.

Rxke · 2005-12-15 13:39:10

I guess a will work sign for space trip to mars for life and servitude of first mars born, to create a base probably would not be enough either..

Well... If you calculate the worth of astronauts working during EVA's etc, their labour is seriously more than the standard-wage, so who knows? (They don't get paid that much, but that's another story)

IIRC, RobS once calculated the 'worth' of manual labor in space operations...

Grypd · 2005-12-15 16:42:33

The one thing we know of the future is that the further it goes the more we dont know what will happen or what will be required. Of the future of technology we know even less though in general we are seeing less great new advances per head of population.

I think we should put the Human colonisation of space at the forefront of our space plans and that emphasis to be the dominating principle of how we build space infrastructure.

Still exploration is something that has to be done and I can truly say that a manned prescence makes that a lot easier.

And I still believe that the Moon has a major place to help us achieve this goal.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-15 17:15:12

GCNRevenger,

Well thank you for your ranting !!!!!, I will explain again to you, problems have solutions , so look at the issue to create a vast quantity of funds on a regular basis and you might come up with a similar answer ( 600 million customer blocks x $30.00 per month = $18 Billion per month over a year = $18B x 12 = $216 Billion with $86 Billion for operations and other earth based projects leaving $130 Billion for space per year ----- ALL PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ) or it might explode your little mind trying because it outside the norms for your mind to function. It was like a job I went for in a think-tank type working environment where you have to design processes for a software apps to test without have app specifications that interview lasted four interviewers for four hours and i was shortlisted, but sadly didn't get the job. You need to use the same grey matter y( your Brain) between your ears to think outside the norms when you are dealing with space, GCNRevenger.

I know exactly what happened with Apollo XIII with the fuel connection malfunction but what I was trying to illustrate that a focused laser would do the same slicing through the skin of the spacecraft and cutting the fuel containers and creating heat and combustion that could destroy the spacecraft, I was trying to explain a scenerio ----- about private ownership of moon property and the issues about all the nations going to the moon for national interests not sightseeing----- but again you didn't read back on previous messages within this topic, So I needed to explain to you again , to help you understand.

Again you don't understand using private funds to go into space when on the surface you are spending billions to build into space without any upfront returns. You need to think again longer term and strategic in nature. Here we go strategy 101 - When you build all the infrastructure in space for other space fairing enterprises to come after you build the highways and the ability to become the backbone of the expansion until other enterprises enlarge in size to become more competitors then customers. It also means the capital returns will flow back over a number of decades and human generations. I hope this doesn't hurt your mind to expand into these large and complex thoughts----- the of the word DYNASTY and you must get the strategy then not the quickfix methodology of the Western culture.

Know I have explain in brief again I will hope this is the completion of the Apollo XIII saga in your little mind.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-15 22:07:26

Private donations from half a billion people? You must be joking... I don't know where you are from, but $30 in most places besides the richest dozen countries in the world isn't a sum that most people part with at the drop of a hat, and there sure aren't 600M households in said countries (a large fraction of their population are kids too). How do you propose to collect all this money? International telethon for space travel? ...Or maybe a UN "space tax" as a fraction of world GDP, like Kofee & Ko want for humanitarian spending. And who will actually collect, hold, and allocate this money? Something like Rick's space club?

You can think outside the box all you want, but the constraints about what you can actually do are firmly within the confines of circumstance. What is doable is not going to change through any amount of cleverness or wit, because the challenges that block your vision are the most concrete ones known to man, both in society and science: economics and chemistry. You can fight the "box" by force of will all you like, but the box has already won, you just haven't acknolaged defeat yet.

Competition is a decidedly capitalist concept Tristar, and all capitalist corporations do eventually require a return on their investment. Governments do too; they require that their investment actually accomplish something that bennefits the governed, or at least their system of civilization. Right now, building large space infrastructure without a known goal does neither, and you have time and time again been challenged to show how your massive plans for widespread space infrastructure or "huge" ships without are any worth to anyone, and why colonizing every odd rock we can lay our rockets on, is by default a good idea... and you have failed.

This principle of return on investment is not made irrelivent just by changing time scales, you will eventually have to show something of worth, and just buiding infrastructure and colonies that aren't self-sustaining nor profitable doesn't make any sense.

Edit: It occurs to me that you are thinking something like a science fiction flick, where people live and create their own economies in space and become self-sufficent economically... Well guess what? Other then on Mars and maybe some of the bigger moons, that is not going to happen, because people aren't going to live any place else because of the lack of elements and sane conditions to live with. They will always just be way stations, satellite towns, never really self-sufficent without at least the basic elements needed for life and industry.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-15 23:38:55

GCNRevenger,

There you go again, still trapped not understanding ----- I said customer blocks means a single block per customer or multiple block to a single customer, each block is valued at $30.00 per month, I have a current market size of over 1 billion customer block with at least twice that again in coming years. I didn't mean 600 million people, please read the next time. and there is more than 30 countries are in the OECD list of industrial nations I don't know where you get 12 rich nations.

Now to your other misunderstood responses, all the funding and development are using current technologies and technologies under development at the present time, nothing is futuristic technologies used in the outlined operations. Yes, Capitalism is based not only on return of capital but market share, asset value and other responses and will not explain unless you don't understand. The development of space requires capitalist timelines to be developed over multiple decades and family generations to see the full benefits. ( No quick returns - eg. Rail in America or Standard Oil or News Limited )

I think you need to look past your feeble thoughts of prospector landings they won't help humanity get into space in the medium to long term and without tagging them towards colonization. But the infrastructure also needs to be constructed and your mind can't get around the idea of large scale development so how can it go into space because it is vast in size and complexity and you need a mind that doesn't have boundaries and your mind has very narrow boundaries.

sdc2 · 2005-12-16 00:54:45

We are glad to see that this topic has finally started to address the important topic of this post!

And not wasteful destructive non-sence!

This is indeed an important topic to debate and discuss, and is why it was started in the first place!

I would very much like to participate, but if I tried, I would only be attacked, slandered, and demeaned, and this would distract from the good debate underway!

I support this debate, and am enjoying the input by many persons from different viewpoints!

Ad-Astar! To The Stars!

That is after all the whole point of this post!

I hope you all enjoy this post, and its contibutions to thought and debate.

In Peace For All Mankind!
So Say We All!

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-16 01:21:19

Sdc2,

I understand, the public across the world doesn't understand why we are going to space and doesn't see a benefit for space development and exploration. We need to provide that across the whole space community on earth and make the public understand we are going to stay this time and build into space, if not then we will need the courage of private enterprise to take up the slack.

If you want to put your views directly to me just message me, I only respond as I am responded too, and I find that certain members you need to hold your ideals forcefully. I hope you do get involved we need more to discuss this important issue.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-16 02:13:35

"I have a current market of over 1 billion customer block with at least twice that again in coming years"

Ohhhkay Tristar, I am not even going to ask if you are being serious about the above or not...

...The idea of anybody creating any new home for humans outside of the Earth requires a very specific set of conditions and reasources reguardless of any other desire whatsoever seems quite lost on you, as well as the complete insanity of space industry being a positive and bennefical thing simply because its in space.

Both of these are one thing, but you are taking Rick Robson seriously, that is as the saying goes, the straw that broke the camel's back...

...You are either too young to understand, or else you are not the least bit serious about your own statements, or more likly then either one just plain out of your mind.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-16 02:17:51

And not wasteful destructive non-sence!
This is indeed an important topic to debate and discuss, and is why it was started in the first place!
I would very much like to participate, but if I tried, I would only be attacked, slandered, and demeaned, and this would distract from the good debate underway!
I support this debate, and am enjoying the input by many persons from different viewpoints!
Ad-Astar! To The Stars!

I wonder if Rick even knows that sdc1-4 are different accounts... he certainly doesn't even try to make them appear that way.

"attacked, slandered, and demeaned"
...Haha! At least they aren't capitalized this time.

Would these "other viewpoints" be, oh, "International-Space-Agency" and sdc1-4?

Oh, and its "nonsense" Ricky

Rxke · 2005-12-16 02:47:57

Both of these are one thing, but you are taking Rick Robson seriously, that is as the saying goes, the straw that broke the camel's back...

Ditto.

The only way you maybe could have such a customerbase is if you were Rupert Murdoch and friends, or had financial control over all the internet providers, and then some... Anyway even in the above cases that'd be no net income (no pun intended)

I have a current market of over 1 billion customer block with at least twice that again in coming years.

Come on now, you expect us to take this serious? You'd be listed in the Billionaire's woh's who lists... No Martian Tristar....

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-16 03:19:35

Rxke, GCNRevenger

I don't think you have valued the Internet correctly - some 28 million top level domains + over 20 million country domains, 270 million customers with 2.5 email accounts each, Over 3 Billion pages - double every two years and sales equalling hundreds of Billions or even trillions of dollars globally and growing about 10-20% each year. Within the next ten years we will double the current internet and have ten times the pages and audio, video streaming across the world the current backbone will grow into a 1000 terabyte highway or more.

So don't talk about how small the Internet ---- www is only 12 years old. It will grow over the next five year generating more sales then the United States GDP and continue to grow beyond that.

30 years ago people didn't think Computers would go anywhere, 20 years ago they didn't think emailing or faxing would go anywhere ( now faxes are getting phased out ), and 10 years ago people though that WWW wouldn't go anywhere and people wouldn't shop or bank online, now look at the world today.

I find your suggestions, thoughts and comments that people in the next 30 - 100 years wouldn't go to moonbases, marsbases or have large space vessels will be the same as the people how are same minded like the ones that said the world was flat in 1492 or that all the planets rotated around the earth.

I didn't say that space was a safe environment for humans but a hostile environment from limited gravity, atomsphere , radiation , including human life support supplies. I don't think its easy to go into space but that is why our group are working on the hard questions and leaving the initial prospecting to NASA and work on the settlement issues for space and the infrastructure required.

Rxke · 2005-12-16 03:35:48

I don't think you have valued the Internet correctly - some 28 million top level domains + over 20 million country domains, 270 million customers with 2.5 email accounts each, Over 3 Billion pages -

Uh, dude...

You say you have 1B customer blocks; I say even da interweb can't give you that; and now you throw around some numbers that exactly prove my point.

Closest number: the 3 B pages... You get 30$ for each page hosted? What Dollar are we talking about? Monopoly(tm) dollars, maybe?

Martin_Tristar · 2005-12-16 07:54:24

Rxke,

I was talking about the size and complexity of the Internet ----- Example of a large customer base ----- Not taken over the Internet Providers ------ ,, the NASDAQ every years processes hundreds of millions of transactions for over 100 million clients through their brokers again another Example ----- I am telling you how misinformed you are and providing some knowledge about the internet structure and size and the continuing growth of the net.

The Target Market currently is more than 1 Billion customer Blocks and growing daily by the time we can implement the solution the market size will be four or close to five times the current size.

Forecasted Customer Market structure:

1 Block usage - 5% of market ( 30 million customers ) = 30 Million Blocks

10 Blocks average - 30% ( 18 million customers ) = 180 Million Blocks

25 Blocks average - 45% ( 10.8 Million customers ) = 270 Million Blocks

50 Blocks Average - 20 % (2.4 Million customers ) = 120 Million Blocks

Customer Base of approx = 61.2 million approximately across the whole world would provide the 600 Million customer blocks required to meet objectives or even less if the upper market is larger then forecasted.

I know you are having a hard time understanding Basic Maths and Business Planning to comprehen yje creation of a new income source for space development and then implement the development of the infrastructure required to expand into space, including the infrastructure on earth.

Rxke, you need to open your eyes, because you didn't read and understand my previous statement. So I hope you understand this message outlines potential customer base and future grow.

Rxke · 2005-12-16 08:01:16

Whatever you say dude. Pulling number out of thin air, then saying people don't grasp basic maths when they disagree...

*hits ignore*

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-16 08:59:42

I was talking about the size and complexity of the Internet ----- Example of a large customer base ----- Not taken over the Internet Providers ------ ,, the NASDAQ every years processes hundreds of millions of transactions for over 100 million clients through their brokers again another Example ----- I am telling you how misinformed you are and providing some knowledge about the internet structure and size and the continuing growth of the net.
The Target Market currently is more than 1 Billion customer Blocks and growing daily by the time we can implement the solution the market size will be four or close to five times the current size.
Rxke, you need to open your eyes, because you didn't read and understand my previous statement. So I hope you understand this message outlines potential customer base and future grow.

Yeah, just some arm-waving about "blocks" (probobly just squares for counting on a whiteboard) and the traditional burned-out pre-bubble venture capitalist shpeil about the "power of the interenet" (even though most of the pages on it are personal or non-business related) by trying to dupe us with big page counts. There ain't no way to make the kind of money he's talking about without getting most every internet-enabled business in the world to cough up three and four digit sums, which just isn't going to happen without a global UN tax or something.

*Ignore enabled*

SpaceNut · 2005-12-16 10:11:59

I am going out on a limb to see if I can come up with a thought within Martin_Tristar relm.

Lets say the ISP providers of the world or even you own decided to go up on there service price by say a $1 and really did not express why they are going up in price. Most would still keep there provider thou being quite erked by the increase thou it is very small. Lets say that the customer base for this is the 1 billion.

That means a generated funds of a billion and oh by the way it was monthly the increase was for, so after just 1 year the ISP provider has 12 billion in cold cash to do as they would wish to do.

Lets say now that the owner of the provider is an avid Space Nut and choses to finance or to even give the funds for space use.

Nice 12 billion but who would he be able to give it to is very important for the steps of colonization to occur.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-16 11:28:55

Don't even go there, Spacenut

The vast majority of web pages, I am sure, didn't pay the $10-20 registration fee anually, and it sure as heck isn't going to increase $12 anually without "anyone noticing or complaining." One of the whole reasons for sucess of the internet is its low cost, raising the price will pass that roughly doubled fee onto the customer.

And how do you intend to collect it? It will have to be as a mandetory tax, but a large percentage of pages are in other countries besides the US. How will you force them to pay? You would need some kind of UN trans-national tax, which would be anathema.

Rxke · 2005-12-16 11:41:24

First he says

I have a current market size of over 1 billion customer block with at least twice that again in coming years.

a leetle bit later he says

The Target Market currently is more than 1 Billion customer Blocks and growing daily by the time we can implement the solution the market size will be four or close to five times the current size.

In other words, I have this bridge for sale.

I'm not saying this is completely impossible, 1bil customer blocks @30$, just consider this: some exclusivity-deal with big Football or other league, pay-per-view, you could get there, if a *very* significant amount of Americans is crazy enough to fork for that on a semi-regular basis, meaning more than 2 or three blocks a year) but you wouldn't get that exclusivity contract for nothing, there'd be wads of money asked upfront.

SpaceNut · 2005-12-16 11:54:26

GCNRevenger not web pages for thoses are in the penny range for advertizing payouts per link. I was refering to the ISP or Intranet service provider, when most are offered for as little as 9.95 a month upwards to 39 or more just to gain the access to be able to blog these thoughts that we all have.

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