The destruction of GM and Ford - To save or not to save them!

Martian Republic · 2005-05-07 14:53:49

General Motor and Ford have been reduced to junk bone statues and as the saying goes as the car industry goes, so goes the US Economy. There is currently over half a trillion dollars of derivatives or bonds owed against General Motor and Ford. General Motors can only borrow at 11% interest instead of the old 5% or 6% interest and Ford can only borrow at 10.5% interest. General Motors and Ford represent one of two of the last remaining major industrial section of the United States with the air craft manufacturing being the other. There is a move by the old Morgan and Dupont to dismantle General Motors and Ford. Currently General Motors has 55 plants inside the United States with 5 already permanently idled and another 5 in the process of being idled and with the ideal of permanently idling the rest of them within the next two year or so. The also intend to idle a whole bunch more within the next two or three months.

Should General Motor and Ford be saved

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3 … e_auto.pdf

Web Broadcast on the subject of saving General Motors. The top one is the high speed connection and the bottom one is the low speed connection.

http://www.larouchepub.com/radio/radio_ … _en_hi.asx

http://www.larouchepub.com/radio/radio_ … _en_lo.asx

Larry,

dicktice · 2005-05-07 18:30:23

All Ford and GM have to do is, convert asap to hybrid electric gasoline and diesel cars and trucks and busses, and get cities of the world to prohibit any more new non-hybrids on the streets. Let 'em go the way of the urban horse and wagons, and sell only new hybrids from now on. What a market! And by the time that market is saturated, it'll hydrogen-electric hybrid time, and a whole new ballgame and infrastructure. American ingenuity, pah! They've been handing it all to the Toyotas and Hondas of the world, on a platter!

MarsDog · 2005-05-07 18:53:57

Union special status cannot survive in the flat Earth economy.

Inflexible and inefficient workforce needs large subsidies which the shareholders and purchasers have no interest in.

The parasite had, at one time, a symbiotic relationship;
able to hold up production for ransom; Now it is killing the host.

Trebuchet · 2005-05-07 22:10:27

And by the time that market is saturated, it'll hydrogen-electric hybrid time, and a whole new ballgame and infrastructure. American ingenuity, pah! They've been handing it all to the Toyotas and Hondas of the world, on a platter!

GM basically made the conscious decision to 'skip a generation' and go straight to hydrogen. They have a hydrogen fuel cell concept car that is produceable at a sellable price, they're just waiting for the fuel pump infrastructure to catch up. Cue Bush's alt-fuel bill from a few years ago, which IIRC wanted at least one hydrogen pump in some percentage of gas stations nationwide and earmarked some funds for it.

I'm curious if there was any connection between the two strategies, and what sorts of campaign contributions greased the wheels, but...

Oh well.

As for the hybrids, their fuel economy is amazingly inflated - to the point where Consumer Reports discovered that they only get 60% of their stated city gas mileage. 60% of the Civic hybrid's city gas mileage is 28.8 mpg, or *worse* than the non-hybrid version of the Civic. They do get lower emissions, but that's it.

As for unions, yes, they are a major component, if not the only reason, why GM is in such troubles. I believe they're why Ford is having trouble, too, but I've not really looked at Ford's problems in as much detail. If I were an American automaker, I'd be looking at trying to destroy the power of the auto unions by almost any means possible, simply because the pension/health packages they're getting are killing auto sales and profits. If GM had sane labor costs, they'd be underselling everyone but the Koreans on price, and their manufactured quality has improved to the point where anyone who tells you that American cars are crap happens to be well out of step with the times (they're about on par with the Asian manufacturers on quality and light years ahead of Europe).

MarsDog · 2005-05-08 01:54:18

General Motors and Ford may go under,
to be replaced by less comfrontational Asian ways.

US union (Mafia ?) culture just cannot compete,
even though the Great Lakes area has efficient transport and is ideal place to manufacture.

It is a people and organizational problem.

dicktice · 2005-05-08 10:11:53

Why are you all so hung up on fuel costs re. hybrid gasolene/electric cars? The essential thing, is to clean up the World's cities, and without any more horrendous regulations than the prohibition of conventional (idle-while-stalled-in- traffic) cars from city streets. The economies of fuel will follow naturally through design competition. With the citiy governments in cahoots with the car makers, the cleaner air and rejuvinated car market will benefit all, in the short run. GM's pathetic excuse for delaying hybrid production on account of an anticipated hydrogen economy that I'll not live to see, has pretty much taken them out of the running. (I thought, sure, that the Saturn Division would launch their hybrid.) Ford's getting into bed with Toyota, in licensing the use of their 3rd generation hybrid drive-train, was a wise move although not to be proud of, since they missed the boat in misdirected research. Old Henry would not have been pleased!

Martian Republic · 2005-05-08 16:18:19

All Ford and GM have to do is, convert asap to hybrid electric gasoline and diesel cars and trucks and busses, and get cities of the world to prohibit any more new non-hybrids on the streets. Let 'em go the way of the urban horse and wagons, and sell only new hybrids from now on. What a market! And by the time that market is saturated, it'll hydrogen-electric hybrid time, and a whole new ballgame and infrastructure. American ingenuity, pah! They've been handing it all to the Toyotas and Hondas of the world, on a platter!

dicktice,

I don't think you understand. With over 500 billion dollars between GM and Ford at about 11% interest, that like 55 to 60 billion dollars in interest per year. If they sold there cars at 10,000 dollars per copy, they would have to sell five to six million cars just to pay the interest. That not including buying material to make those cars, paying the workforce, retooling the factory which will cost hundreds of million if not billions, borrowing more credit, taxes, etc.

Without Government intervention, GM and Ford aren't going to make it.

Larry,

Grypd · 2005-05-08 16:37:52

Then they will not make it, A global economy is a dreadful monster it truly only cares that you go to the place where you can make things cheaper. In the UK last month the biggest UK manufacturer of cars MG Rover collapsed. It had tried to have itself bought over by a consortium in Shanghai but when they discovered the true state of the company they withdrew. Of course they had bought the rights to manufacture the rover engines before hand.

It is sore with so many people out of jobs but what can anyone do it is the nature of the world we live in for companies to either grow and go to better trading areas or die.

As someone said when the going gets tough. The tough get going to where the going is easier.

edit Probably means that when they collapse there will still be Ford and GM cars. Just made in China.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-08 16:41:28

General Motors and Ford may go under,
to be replaced by less comfrontational Asian ways.
US union (Mafia ?) culture just cannot compete,
even though the Great Lakes area has efficient transport and is ideal place to manufacture.
It is a people and organizational problem.

The problem is, if we lose GM and Ford then we lose a large manufacturing sector of America and we lose the ability to rebuild America, because of that lost manufacturing industries. Whether you like GM or Ford is beside the point or whether you like union or don't like unions is also beside the point. The US manufacturing like GM or Ford can’t compete against slave labor wages. So if this Capitalistic, Free Enterprise Free Trade, NAFTA agreement continues, the United States will be de-industrialized and will be reduced to a third world statues. When you sacrifice your industrial base like this, you lose the ability to generate wealth by making it internally. The United States already has a 500 billion dollar trade deficit with other countries. The dismantling of both GM and Ford will increase that trade deficit by maybe another 200 to 300 billion dollars foreign imports. The air lines are also in trouble and that means the Boeing and Lockeed will soon be in trouble too. If the United States, dismantle it industrial base like this, it will go technologically backward and we will ultimately become a banana Republic. You can’t refuse to make your own manufactured goods and service and import most of your food from overseas and import your oil also from overseas and choose to produce nothing in return when it comes to trading with other countries.

Larry,

dicktice · 2005-05-08 18:49:54

Nearly all the requirements for hybrid gas/electric cars already exist, e.g. frames, body shells, wheels, brakes, tires, interiors, lights, belts, airbags, etc, etc. Also, flexible production lines, trained workers--already accustomed to annual model changes, and the infrastructure for just-in-time production. Engineering seems to be lacking, but that's hireable. Unfortunately, management seems to lacking as well. Inventories surely can be converted from straight gasoline and diesel cars to hybrids within ten years. And cities can legislate that none but hybrid-or-better emission vehicles be allowed within built-up areas within that time. It's a win/win/win proposition even over the short term: Save GM and Ford/clean up the air over cities/improve health.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-08 19:14:55

Nearly all the requirements for hybrid gas/electric cars already exist, e.g. frames, body shells, wheels, brakes, tires, interiors, lights, belts, airbags, etc, etc. Also, flexible production lines, trained workers--already accustomed to annual model changes, and the infrastructure for just-in-time production. Engineering seems to be lacking, but that's hireable. Unfortunately, management seems to lacking as well. Inventories surely can be converted from straight gasoline and cars to hybrids within ten years. A cities can legislate: No hybrid or better emission vehicles allowed within built-up areas by that time.

I'm not arguing whether a hybrid gas/electric cars can be done or can't be done. But, my original point is, that GM and Ford aren't going to be here, because of there debt. GM and Ford might not be here even for even the next six month. There planning on dismantling GM and Ford as fast as they can do it. You mention that it might take ten years to bring it on line. With the debt increasing at 50 to 60 billion dollars a year, in ten years, there debt would be one trillion dollars on GM and Ford and 100 billion dollars interest payment to just pay the interest.

But, even if your right about the hybrid gas/electric cars, there won't be anybody inside the United States that can manufacture those cars, because the factories don't exist anymore nor would the machines that need to do the work or the tooling or the assembly lines or the suppliers, etc.

Larry,

dicktice · 2005-05-08 19:38:29

Say not so: We can't afford to let GM and Ford go bust because of debt, bankruptcy protection would take care of that in any case. No more than the World can allow the U.S. to go bust. The new flexible Toyota plant is producing mixed regular and hybrid models now, and goverment legislation can require the asian manufacturing plants in the U.S. and Canada to at least assemble every car they sell in our countries. Ford has received a billion government moneys to redesign their Oakville, Ontario plant to be as flexible. And, in their case, the Toyota drive-train patents have been licensed to them. It's GM that I've been most critical of, for years. Charles Kettering would be hanging his head in shame.

MarsDog · 2005-05-08 20:03:17

It's a win/win/win proposition even over the short term: Save GM and Ford/clean up the air over cities/improve health.

Throwing good money after bad ?

Worldwide transportation of manufactured items has become less expensive, cars smaller and high technology. This could be a replay, on the world scale, of an industry shakeout (US had a very large number of car manufacturers before Ford and GM took over).

US has immigration limits on skilled workers, the engineering jobs are migrating.

The days of the 4 seater, long car commute to work, will be over.

Some of the new cars are very small. What is to stop a Chinese washing machine factory from adding a line to stamp out 2 seater cars ?

Martian Republic · 2005-05-08 20:54:48

Say not so: We can't afford to let GM and Ford go bust because of debt, bankruptcy protection would take care of that in any case. No more than the World can allow the U.S. to go bust. The new flexible Toyota plant is producing mixed regular and hybrid models now, and goverment legislation can require the asian manufacturing plants in the U.S. and Canada to at least assemble every car they sell in our countries. Ford has received a billion government moneys to redesign their Oakville, Ontario plant to be as flexible. And, in their case, the Toyota drive-train patents have been licensed to them. It's GM that I've been most critical of, for years. Charles Kettering would be hanging his head in shame.

I agree with you, we can't let either GM or Ford go under and lose that manufacturing capacity we need to rebuild our nation and those hundreds of thousands of jobs they can generate along with restarting the US Economy with good paying with benefits and productive jobs vs Wal-Martization of American type jobs with substandard wages, no healthcare benefits. But, that what they intend to do, is to dismantle GM and Ford. The Vulture are already circling over the carcass to pick GM and Ford body even to the bones. The only way to stop it, is by the US Government stepping in under the principle of it being in the "GENERAL WELFARE" to preserve GM and Ford for the good of the American People. Without an FDR type president in office or a sufficient uproar of the American people to there congressmen, that is the end. Or otherwise, both GM and Ford are going bye, bye within the next few months, never to be seen again. US Aero-space industry will be the next one to go bye, bye, if nothing happens, never to be seen again either. At that point we can forget about NASA and going back to the moon or Mars for that matter, because we won't have the factories that can build those space ship that can make the trip or a tax base that can pay for the hardware either. If both of these go down, that basically is the end of the United States as an industrial power. It will be that, we are no more.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-08 21:37:15

As a historian commented that exclusion caused the collapse of empires.
http://www.google.com/search?q=roots+of … e=utf-8]In the extreme: Terrorism

A Roman Empire link:

http://eefy.editme.com/2kmjGEP]The relationship between the plebeians and the patricians sometimes came under intense strain, as a result of this exclusion from political influence

US captured the southwest from Mexico, but wants to stop workers entering.

Even http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/biztech/04 … .html]Bill Gates is complaining.

We are in a transition from US multinational control, to international multinational control (reduction of exclusion).

"Saving" Ford and GM is digging the hole deeper;
Excluding better manufacturers via subsidies.
Can USA, again, become a Mecca for engineering, innovation and production by exclusion ?

Martian Republic · 2005-05-08 22:47:29

As a historian commented that exclusion caused the collapse of empires.
http://www.google.com/search?q=roots+of … e=utf-8]In the extreme: Terrorism
A Roman Empire link:
http://eefy.editme.com/2kmjGEP]The relationship between the plebeians and the patricians sometimes came under intense strain, as a result of this exclusion from political influence
US captured the southwest from Mexico, but wants to stop workers entering.
Even http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/biztech/04 … .html]Bill Gates is complaining.
We are in a transition from US multinational control, to international multinational control (reduction of exclusion).
"Saving" Ford and GM is digging the hole deeper;
Excluding better manufacturers via subsidies.
Can USA, again, become a Mecca for engineering, innovation and production by exclusion ?

Since you mention the Roman Empire.

Do you know why Roman Empire fall?

They went around invading other countries and shutting down there domestic production of goods and services and extracted there wealth from other countries instead of having there own people produce it and became a decadent society. They destroyed those other countries and themselves.

Do you know why the British Empire fall?

They when around invading other countries and shutting down there domestic production of goods and services and extracted there wealth from other countries instead of having there own people produce it and became a decadent society. They distorted those other countries and themselves.

Do you want to know why America is going to fall if we continue this policy?

We are going around and invading other countries and shutting down our own factories and idling our workforce and stealing our wealth from overseas and we have become a decadent society. We are destroying other nation and our selves too. We continue these polices and we will destroy ourselves the way the Romans did and way the British did.

The reason that Bill Gates is demanding engineers from other countries, is because we no longer educate people for engineers in this country or educate enough people to be engineers, in sufficient quantity to supply our home businesses with American engineers, instead of having to go overseas to be able to get a sufficient number of engineers. That because of poor schools and the dumming down of the American population in those schools.

There were primarily two things that built the United States up as a nation and industrialized it. They are:
1. The Government on level building infrastructure like dams, rail roads, highways, water & sewer systems, power plants, etc.
2. The Government promoting private venture of manufacturing, mining, farmers and inventors and such actives.

If the United States does rebound, it will be, because we went back to these principle or we will not rebound, because we continued down the path that we are currently going and we collapsed as a nation and are no more.

If the United States does rebounds, it will rebound this way:
1. It will savage what ever industrial capacity it still has and uses it to build infrastructures like subway, levitated trains, nuclear power plants. Maybe even choose to build a City on Mars, because it would be the biggest jobs program out there.
2. Part two would be Private Enterprise jumping into the act, manufacturing rebounding, farmers, mining also rebounding and financing for worth while invention by inventors.

Instead of having 28% of the US population unemployed or under employed at thecurrent time, we wouldn’t have enough workers for the number of jobs that we have out there.

Larry,

dicktice · 2005-05-09 12:06:39

Well, I'd hoped to provide some incentive for more optimistic posts than Martian Republic's. Moan, moan, moan. My only worry is, that his views will be so off-putting as to discourage any discussion. I've got plenty that's positive waiting in the wings, but first, a new shocker on the morning news today, which perhaps should be factored into this thread: It seems that a supertanker company is planning to anchor a "software sweatshop" off the California coast, in international waters, employing programmers from India at three times their present salaries, to live and work aboard four months and two months leave at home, year after year. It'll be cheaper than the trips by American staffs to commute regularly to India, see? Smart: Even if the details may be a little garbled. What do you have to say about this latest afront to the "American dream" which skirts every law designed to protect free enterprise from "foreign" (three miles offshore) takeovers? It's certainly feasible. Radio stations do it all the time, and get away with it all the time, until they're shut down as potential security risks. I recollect bootlegging casino ships off the coast during Prohibition, when neither liquor sales nor gambling were legal times, during the 1920's. It took an Act of Congress, and a Roosevelt, to correct the situation. Food for thought?

MarsDog · 2005-05-09 12:38:52

I see the problem as lack of transparency,
allowing bad management to make self serving decisions.

Reading the history of Union & Mafia corruption and Chief Executive Officers in the news, it becomes apparent that those in charge is the key issue.

Hence the pillars of the US Global Empire.

============

Ford and GM are located in an advantageous manufacturing location. Once they go under, other manufacturers will have the opportunity to start new production.

You have to let old trees die, together with the parasites,
to make way for the new seedlings.

============

supertanker company is planning to anchor a "software sweatshop" off the California coast, in international waters, employing programmers from India at three times their present salaries, to live and work aboard four months and two months leave at home

Maybe they think better, in the refreshing salty air.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/biztech/04 … .html]Bill Gates might want to try it, on programmers of US birth,
to see if it reduces security errors and the crashes of Ms Windows.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-09 13:55:27

I don't mean to moan and grown so much, but we basically have two choices as to what we want to do about those American Factories. Some of these factories have been running since the turn of the 20th Century. These factories represent some of the best manufacturing capability on the entire planet to have them shut down like that. It bad enough when one of them is shut down, but 55 factories at GM and what ever Ford has in the ways of factories also going to be shut down too. Manufacturing is the back bone of a modern society and when these factories are shut down and dismantled, it will take five to seven years to rebuild them and re-assemble them even with government help. We are talking about tens of billions of dollars worth of equipment to re-assemble these plants once there dismantled and everything is sold off or junked. We are also talking about the hundreds of thousands of people that it takes to man these factories, there sub-contractor, there supplier like US Steel, independent tooling for the car industry and the other factories by other companies that make the machines that build those cars also going out of business. Letting something like this go down will ripe a big hole in the US Economy that will keep growing bigger and bigger as the ripple effect reaches further and further out.

Like I said, the only way to stop it, is by Federal Government intervention into this process and put both GM and Ford under Federal Government protection and re-organization process, but keep those factories intact. It not enough to just save those factories, but, we have to make them productive again and have them producing some that add something of value to the US Economy in some new goods and services being produced.

Consider this a test case for any idea that you might have for colonizing space or Mars. Because, if you can't solve this problem down here, you can forget about any or all ideas that you may have about space or Mars, because it too big for you. Because, if we can’t run a physical economy down here, your not going to run a physical economy in space either, if you are using the same logic. So this is a worthwhile discussion for any one that serious about space or space development.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-09 14:38:14

The choice was made by US citizens, not to buy.

Why, then, force them to subsidize ?

Better they spend money on something else.

Just think of the space exploration and colonization from interest saved.

dicktice · 2005-05-09 20:23:31

It's not the factories that are at fault, it's what they produce, and that goes right back to management. Or is that too simplistic?

Grypd · 2005-05-10 03:36:31

It is simply a case that Fords and General Motors are both facing increased competition from abroad and cannot compete. Foreign competition has certain advantages like a cheaper workforce in wages and benefits and in some cases much more modern and productive factories.

So with this and with the now much more effective container system for cargo transport the result is that it comes down to product and prices. It is in this that it seems Ford and GM are not competing.

It is a vicious circle with the lack of cars selling mean that they cannot invest in improvements and at the heart a workforce which struggles to be competitive with cheaper foreign competition.

So in the end Ford and GM as they are now are doomed. If the goverment bails them out it is called nationalisation and this often leads to companies becoming less competitive. And it becomes a continual drain on a countries resources.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-10 08:49:52

It is simply a case that Fords and General Motors are both facing increased competition from abroad and cannot compete. Foreign competition has certain advantages like a cheaper workforce in wages and benefits and in some cases much more modern and productive factories.
So with this and with the now much more effective container system for cargo transport the result is that it comes down to product and prices. It is in this that it seems Ford and GM are not competing.
It is a vicious circle with the lack of cars selling mean that they cannot invest in improvements and at the heart a workforce which struggles to be competitive with cheaper foreign competition.
So in the end Ford and GM as they are now are doomed. If the goverment bails them out it is called nationalisation and this often leads to companies becoming less competitive. And it becomes a continual drain on a countries resources.

Which, I remind you is the bulwark of having a viable space program inside United States. That we need to have to put together a colonization program in space to advance the human civilization into space. If will be dismantled as a result of buying everything cheaper from overseas, that infrastructure won’t be there. So that ends any serious space program inside the United States.

So how could you have a viable space program if Boeing and Lockeed suffer the same fait as GM and Ford of being outsources overseas to foreign manufactures?

But, how can the United States afford to finance such a space effort to colonize space when there taking there 15 billion dollars and spending it overseas and increasing the US trade deficit by 15 billion dollars and putting the Untied State into an unpayable debt that can’t be repaid either?

Here is one of the example where cheaper is not better. Because without domestic supplier even if cheaper you can not afford to buy there products, because you increase your trade deficit buy what buying overseas. Besides increasing the trade deficits by what ever that deal you make was worth , your also causing an internal economic collapse of your economy. Because your home country business that were getting those contracts will go out of business and putting hundreds of thousand of people in the unemployment lines looking for assistance, because they can’t find a good paying job that has a living wage. Actually, the economic collapse you cause your home business, will far out weigh any money you save, by buy your rockets overseas at a cheaper price and trade deficit you will cause.

Larry,

dicktice · 2005-05-10 09:16:02

The questions you raise are all over the map. Why are Japanese and Korean automobile factories doing so well in the U.S. and Canada? Why is it necessary for the U.S. to go it alone in space? Why don't any of you pick up on the clean air aspects of hybrid gas/electric cars, instead of harping on "dissapointing" fuel economy? GM and Ford (why aren't we equally hard on Chrysler?) need to pull up their socks, that's all.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-10 10:09:27

I'll take a shot at it to pass the time.

Why are Japanese and Korean automobile factories doing so well in the U.S. and Canada?

Because they don't have the liabilities that the American auto companies do. They avoid unions whenever they can, they don't have massive pension and healthcare expenses to the same degree. They demonstrate that a car company can operate in the US profitably and competetively.

Why is it necessary for the U.S. to go it alone in space?

Strictly speaking it isn't. But colonization is something that requires a concerted effort to that end and international programs tend to become extremely inefficient.

Why don't any of you pick up on the clean air aspects of hybrid gas/electric cars, instead of harping on "dissapointing" fuel economy?

Lower emissions won't sell more cars. Consumers go and see that the hybrids cost more and their fuel economy is over-rated. It's not a total failure, but it needs work.

That said, if the cost of hybrid cars can be brought down to equal level with their internal combustion counterparts and other efforts such as high ethanol content in fuels are employed it could reduce fuel costs considerably, create a market incentive to buy those cars and as an incidental side benefit, reduce emissions.

GM and Ford (why aren't we equally hard on Chrysler?) need to pull up their socks, that's all.

GM and Ford, if they plan to survive, have to not only market vehicles that the public want (which isn't necessarily what an individual thinks they should want) and they need to drastically cut costs. Foremost, they need to bust the Union, there is no way around that.

To paraphrase Lee Iacocca, we have 20,000 jobs at ten dollars an hour and none at eleven.

Which segues nicely into why Chrysler is often left off the list, at least here in Motown. They get to the edge of folding, the government comes in and bails them out, then twenty years later the Germans buy them out. Many here in Detroit don't even look at Chrysler as an American company anymore, with good reason.

And the Germans own Jeep, does anyone else find that amusing? ???

Or as some of my co-workers have said, "buy American, buy Toyota."

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