Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Euler · 2004-11-21 01:21:59

A pipeline from Venezuela to China?

A pipeline from Venezuela to the Pacific Ocean.

Rxke · 2004-11-21 04:12:17

Gennaro...

>Yes, generally when Islam was in decadence and its rulers didn't take >their simplistic religion all that seriously.

Come on... Be serious. Islamic fundamentalism is a pretty recent thing (post WWI) I was talking about the 18th century and before. Calling their religion simplistic shows you don't know what you're talking about at all. Then you have to call all religions simplistic.

For instance around the 12th C ( the heydays of Islam) a lot of intellectual Christians, Judes went to live in what is now Marocco, out of free will, because there they were not persecuted, even actively welcomed...

The fundamentalism drive (which arguably is a more simplistic interpretation of Islam, came as a reaction of what happended towards WWI., and during the interbellum. A second wave hit after WWII, lots of that to do with the cold war, where the Islamic former dominions were being used as pawns in the geopolitical play. And the formation of Israel of course...
The West is 'paying' for that now.

Gennaro · 2004-11-21 09:57:04

"Simplistic" is a partly relative and subjective judgement and I agree it’s not very flattering. What I thought of for example was that Islam has never really had a philosophy of ethics in the way Christians and Hindus have. The Christian always asked “what is God and what does he want with my life?” All the Muslim ever asked was “what is the correct literal meaning of the Quran?”. He was tied to it since it was the literal word of God, it doesn’t problematize like Jesus does in the gospels. Hence, you are forbidden to eat pork simply because God says so, not because it has any relevance or consequence outside of itself. There is no right in itself in Islam, no transcendance, there is only, ‘if God says so you must obey’. This is echoed through the entire set up of Islam. Why do you think Islam is translated “submission”?

Yes, Christianity has had the the dogma of literal inspiration itself, most poignantly among Protestants, yet the literary corpus of Christianity is very different from that of Islam. It encompasses a thousand year tradition of written word from numerous sources and settings. From the Songs of Songs, actually consisting of ritual chants in some Semite fertility cult context, to the gospels and the philosophically condensed letter writing of Paul, all by different authors expressing varying perspectives. All of this required interpretation, and not mainly interpretation to the literal word, but of its cosmological and metaphysical significance. Of course this has also spawned numerous heresies, denounciations and conflicts regarding the true faith throughout the entire history of Christianity. If nothing else, it provoked thought, the evolvement of Scholastic philosophy, Protestantism and eventually secularization itself.

The holy scriptures of the latecomer religion Islam are entirely different. It consists largelly of the Quran and the Hadiths, the latter simply being commentary and broadening of the Quran. The Quran, written by a clansleader robber baron in the desert, is given at a single specific point in time, consists essentially of nothing but a long list of commandments, fixed and ready, with high and low, profoundness and shallowness all hopelessly jumbled together (but since they are the literal commandments of God himself, who has simply spoken through Muhammed, given equal importance).

The problem of the Muslim, in other words, while sensing the absurdities of his scripture, has always been to circumvent unagreeable aspects by finding other lines in the Quran which he could turn to his benefit, yet never to question or see beyond the scripture itself (how could God be wrong?). Or he could simply submit unquestionably to the whole by self-imposed brainwashing. This is what Quran schools do. Bottomline: Islam is a religion to make dumb people dumber, and I highly doubt that its formation, coinciding with a fix and ready military machine to conquer the world is without significance. In contrast, Christians could be said to take texts out of context and ascribing them with a metaphysical meaning originally unintended. This is particularly true for large segments of the Old Testament. That’s maybe no less of a delusion, but in my opinion the resulting cultural input is rather more creative.

For instance around the 12th C ( the heydays of Islam) a lot of intellectual Christians, Judes went to live in what is now Marocco, out of free will, because there they were not persecuted, even actively welcomed...

Jews were often treated relatively better because of their Dhimmi status than in Christian societies. However, for Christians, Dhimmi status often meant a quite considerably worse state of affairs, with occasional outbursts of plundering and persecution. The Jews are also a fringe group, not really important to the aspect of political control in medieval times.

The 1100’s was not precisely the heyday of Islam in the western Mediterranean. In the previous century, the Cordoba caliphate was broken up into several segments where imported Berb, Slav and Arab contingents fought each other. Poetry, culture and science did flourish during this time, but like I said, it was a period of decline. In the mid 1000’s the Christian kingdoms in the north went on the offensive, taking all land north of the Tajo and recaptured the old Visigoth capital of Toledo. The Omayyad caliphate was discontinued and eventually Muslim Berbs (from Marocco) took control of Andalusia. In the 1100’s these were unsuccessful in recapturing ground lost to the Christians. They also established a severe and intolerant rule towards the Dhimmi which meant that remaining Mozarabs (Arabized Christians) fled into Christian lands. To the considerable loss of Muslim Spain, I dare say. The Berbs even failed to consolidate their rule in relation to the native Muslim population, soon making them their enemies.
I find it hard to accommodate these events to some highly civilized and tolerant court in Marrocco, but allright, I don’t know everything.

And prior to the 1000’s breakup of the Cordoba caliphate, in the late 900’s, there was of course the orthodox Muslim dictator al-Mansur, figuring at a time when the Omayyad caliphs had largelly lost power to their First Ministers. In an attempt to reafirm the strength of Islam he widely persecuted the Christians, burnt the philosophical writings of the caliph’s library and destroyed the basilica of Santiago de Compostela.

Neither were the days of the Muslim conquest of Spain in the early 700’s, when the Muslims were really resolute and agile, a very tolerant era. The relative tolerance and cultural flowering came with consolidation and complacency. I believe this outlines somewhat of a rule in Muslim societies. Cultural achievement is because of others, generally conquered peoples, and tolerance occurs when the Muslims themselves are lax and more opted to pursue the wealth and flowering of life rather than expanding Islam.

As for Muslim Fundamentalism, to put it crudely, there is really no such thing. Fundamentalist Islam is Islam taken seriously.

Palomar · 2005-02-24 19:24:30

*I know this originally had focus on Europe, but what I've got to say doesn't quite fit in with "Political Potpourri." Didn't want to start a new thread, and this one did deal with issues of culture, "cultural empirialism" and etc.

While I'm in favor of the Western concepts of liberty, equality, etc., being encouraged and fostered throughout the world (hopefully via peaceful means and willing assimilation), there are things about Western culture I don't want to see spreading. :-\ MTV, for instance, is apparently going "Pan-African." Yes, I will bash MTV; it's trash entertainment, IMO. It also came into being when I was all of 16 years old, so it started with my generation.

Do we really want the entire world drinking Pepsi, watching M(oron)TV and etc.? The Western world might lead in many respects -- wealth, literacy, legal reforms, equality, etc., etc.: But we also have soaring divorce rates, people popping pills left and right, all sorts of neuroses, high suicide rate, children on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications, on and on.

I remember a guy in college, from Kenya. He didn't put down the U.S. or the West, but he was genuinely puzzled (and not overly impressed) at traveling about in the U.S. and everywhere it's a level of mediocrity: Same-name donut shop on the corner, same types of soda machines all around, K-Marts wherever you go (this was in the late 1980s), etc. He enjoyed his village area back in Kenya: Go over a hill and they speak a different language, have different customs and different works of art. A lot of originality, in other words.

Yeah, there are some things about the West the world could benefit from, as a whole. And some other things it wouldn't.

Maybe we're the best of the best and the worst of the worst. And some of our worst the world definitely -doesn't- need.

My 2 cents' worth.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-02-25 04:18:33

Globalisation is just a consequence of our advanced technology allowing ideas and people to flow from point to point easily. But with it comes buisness and its ability to purchase and control economies.

It is just growth where a company has reached its capacity in one country it can start subsidaries in others. Especially when we have one major superpower and it has a very high standard of living. The people want what the USA has and so companies provide.

There is a hatred for Globalisation and though the USA did not create the idea (it was the British) it is the USA that gets the blame. Though it really is all countries that do it, no country is an Island anymore.

Palomar · 2005-02-25 10:00:31

*Hi Grypd: Well, I was referring more towards the ill effects of pop culture and its resultant values. I am pro-technology. I'm not pro-fads. An example: An island in the Indonesia area (I didn't keep the link to the news story from months ago, nor do I recall which island) is now gaining access to more Western influence, mores, values, etc. The teenaged girls of the island used to be proud of their natural bodies -- a bit of roundness and even mild plumpness was considered healthy, natural, desirable. Now they have an epidemic on this island of girls puking their guts out, refusing to eat food (anorexia, bulimia), etc. -- miserable and trying to get thinner, thinner, thinner...just because Western models and actresses look like Bobbleheaded Bonebags. Not every woman is Jennifer Aniston or Kate Moss. (In the U.S. there's a surge in males -- particularly young males -- with anorexia and bulimia too; it's not just females and I'm not attempting to make this a gender issue, so must include the effects on males who suffer from these eating disorders as well).

It's sad. That's just one example.

There are some aspects of Westernism which I value and promote. There are other destructive, harmful influences I'd rather do without. It's ironic that the notion of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (which I'm all for) has also fostered such CONFORMITY.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-02-25 16:41:16

Yeah conformity, the worst bit of the modern western civilisation. It is steamrolling the actual indigenous western cultures to make way for mass consumerism.

These supermodels are a prime example of this. Heroin Chic as it is called mainly as these supermodels are regular abusers and not for its high just so that they can loose weight.

Thankfully there appears to be a form of modest rebellion in the use of these models. It seems that people have started not to buy any products so endorsed and prefer more homely type people to promote goods. And in the streets there are now a lot of shops that are for people who do not meet these "model" standards. And with the big chains taking notice its a good thing. (Especially for me who is not a light thing at all).

Still rampant consumerism prefers standard sizes so that they can sell more and make more profit. Lets go to Mars and not have this or at least allow another culture to be created so enriching humanity.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 14:07:30

Going back to earlier subjects, a few days ago this subject of unassimilated immigrants in Europe/America came up in casual conversation with a group of associates, several of them quite liberal. It was the kind of conversation that happens with a hint of alcohol, behind closed doors where all participants stop shielding and say what they really think. Anyway, well into the tirades one of the Lefties stopped calling me a racist long enough to say, though less plainly, with an expression of profound regret, that Europe is so guilt-ridden over past genocides that they've pursued policies that make another one almost inevitable.

The only point of contention is whether it will result in Europe becoming North Africa with snow or a whole new round of gas chambers. Whatever the case, I can't really fault the sentiment and it probably sums up the situation as well as anything.

And that's my happy thought for the day. ???

Palomar · 2005-03-07 16:20:24

*Well, I brought up the issue of genocide in a different thread today (regarding hypocrisy).

Wrongdoings of the past should be recognized and admitted (owed up to). Attempts should certainly be made never to repeat such actions again and laws enforced to prevent it.

There is another issue here which we're all aware of: Others (who probably don't truly care about the original victims) using wrongs of the past to get their own way. That's all guilt-inductionists want.

Not sure where this is going in Europe (comprised of geographically rather small -- by comparison to the U.S. and Canada -- nations), with different languages, histories, etc. As WWII is concerned, a lot of European nations suffered because of the aggression of the Germans and Italians. The Danish King stood up to Hitler and told him he couldn't have the Danish Jews, and went so far as to wear a yellow Star of David himself. I'm sure that'll be forgotten, though; certain "interest groups" will try to paint the Danes as being slobbering genocidal rabid Nazis too. :down:

As America goes, there have been enough African-Americans and Latinos, Asians, etc., who have struggled and worked hard to get where they currently are. I'm pretty sure
-they're- not going to just "give in" to some loud-mouthed demanding immigrants who suddenly want to call the shots and have everyone else bowing and scraping and catering to them. :laugh:

Of course I could be wrong. Events are moving so swiftly, one "side" says this and another naysays it. It's dizzying, disconcerting and sometimes...I'd like to retreat into my own little world permanently.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-03-07 16:44:31

Not sure where this is going in Europe (comprised of geographically rather small -- by comparison to the U.S. and Canada -- nations), with different languages, histories, etc. As WWII is concerned, a lot of European nations suffered because of the aggression of the Germans and Italians. The Danish King stood up to Hitler and told him he couldn't have the Danish Jews, and went so far as to wear a yellow Star of David himself. I'm sure that'll be forgotten, though; certain "interest groups" will try to paint the Danes as being slobbering genocidal rabid Nazis too. :down:

Im actually half Danish and my Grandparents on that side met when they where part of the resistance. I was often told of the stories that happened in those days. At first Denmark was simply stunned when the Germans simply rode in they where not really armed and no real declaration of war was given.

But from 1943 a council of freedom was formed with all the groups that where opposed to the Germans could go to. My Grandmother was the equivalent of a supply officer as she was a midwife and had good reason to move around. What she did do as well was help smuggle people out. Of the 8000 Jews in Denmark over 7000 where smuggled out and across the Baltic to Sweden.

Palomar · 2005-03-07 19:13:16

Of the 8000 Jews in Denmark over 7000 where smuggled out and across the Baltic to Sweden.

*Yep. And the Jews have remembered, honored and thanked the Gentiles who helped to rescue them, via http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/ind … s.html]Yad Vashem.

Just like there were white folks speaking out against slavery here in the U.S. and seeking to abolish it prior to 1776, the later "Underground Railroad," etc.

Not everyone is a racist. And those who imply or accuse an entire group of it -- collectively -- are racists themselves.

--Cindy

P.S.: A really good book to read about a family's true-life efforts to rescue Jews from the Holocaust in Holland is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ … 699308]The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom (now deceased). She and her family (father and sister during the time of the Holocaust) were devout Christians. They themselves suffered a terrible price for helping Jews. They're honored at Yad Vashem.

http://www.corrietenboom.com/]corrietenboom.com

It's been a long time since I've read her story; it's difficult (emotionally) all around -- the Jews' plight, the family's suffering, the concentration camp they were sent to, but worth it. Just remembering it makes me cry, no kidding. Especially her sister Betsy -- read the book to find out why.

DonPanic · 2005-03-18 02:24:36

LO
A blow against European Union ?
Among the main Europe promotors, the frenchies who should vote for the European Constitution in June 2005 are about to say : "Merde", if latest polls are confirmed.

The main reason being the Bolkenstein directive proposal by the European Commission.
This directive should allow a worker from a union member country to work in another country with the laws of his origin country.
If so, a romanian worker could work in Sweden with a work contract being paid with a romanian wage level and having romanian social protection. Then, a swedish society could fire his swedish workers to employ cheap romanian workers.
Some European Trade Unions start mobilising against the european Commission accused to dismantle high social rights of advanced countries.

Second reason is a comment of european Commiission saying that delocalisation of factories is a chance for european economy.
Public opinion sees european Commission as regardless for jobs, and interested only in profits for Big Biz.
The fact is that destroying jobs and incomes in an area is also destroying consumers and clients for Biz in this area and transferring jobs in poorly paid areas don't increase market for the delocalized industries, so, Big Biz miscalculates profits of delocalisation. Ford the 1rst understood that point of view when calculating that his workers would be the best clients for his cars, so that part of wages money would go back to Ford...

Third reason is that, if the number of european parliament members is quite proportionnal to the demographical weight of the Union country members, in the Union executive, the weight of small countries is equal to the weight of big countries, so that the Union will be led by peoples representing minority of its population.
And unlike in USA, the chief of the european Union executive is not elected, then the european Union is not democratic.

Palomar · 2005-07-01 12:22:13

*I know this thread was originally established for issues pertaining to Europe, but I didn't want to create a new thread, it does pertain to cultural issues, etc. Would put it in the "U.S. Culture, where's it going?" thread...but this isn't about the U.S. either.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050701/lf … 24]Western Canada's growing gang problem

Solving the problem wont be simple. Big money can be made growing marijuana, smuggling it across the US border and bringing back cocaine and guns.

Well...they've legalized marijuana. ::shrugs:: They knew a big market existed to the south. Did they think making pot legal in Canada would solve more problems than it created?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-07-01 12:33:01

*And while we're at it, let's skip south of the Border:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050701/ap_ … w]Tensions in Mexico

A reporter pointed out that Mexico doesn't have a history of slavery. Right, the Conquistadores were wonderful, loving, egalitarians who never pillaged a poor Native village or raped a defenseless Native woman or did anything else bad/destructive. Sure. Not.

I'm wondering if this issue will spill over into this region. We're only 55 miles from the Border.

--Cindy

P.S.:

In fact, Mexico had hundreds of thousands of slaves during the colonial period

No they didn't, that reporter said so.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-01 12:50:15

Solving the problem wont be simple. Big money can be made growing marijuana, smuggling it across the US border and bringing back cocaine and guns.

So. . . if the US would legalize marijuana and Canada would stop being so screwy on guns, no problem.

Palomar · 2005-07-01 12:57:14

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … seum]Oskar Schindler museum to open in Poland

*Another good article. :up: Glad to know this. Emilie Schindler died in 2001; I recall reading about her passing. She was, IIRC, in a wheelchair at the end of the movie, when they were placing rocks on his gravemarker. I'd love to visit this museum. Talk about your heart of gold, the "one in a million." :up:

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2005-07-07 06:36:46

And isn't it funny that one thing that unites the *entire* world is the common use of the ten digits of "1,2,3..." for our numbering system, which was invented by the Arabs...which has proven far, far superior to the old Roman numbering system.

LO, the "arab" number system was invented in India and transmitted to Europe by the Arabs.

Stormrage · 2005-07-08 10:35:03

I read the post of a guy from Sweden posting about swedes becoming a minority in there own land. I don't know what the hell he is on about. I lived in Göteborg before my family moved to London. I'm a Somalian and like a lot of us we are Muslims. Yet never have i seen anything race related happen. I met alot of swedes and they never feared that they were going to become a minority.

The only reason why there is low birth rate amongst Europeans is because women are out there working. They are not forced to stay home and having a baby can be hell on your career. It's no one's fault. Unless we want to remove the freedom that women have we should be quiet about it.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-08 11:21:08

I read the post of a guy from Sweden posting about swedes becoming a minority in there own land. I don't know what the hell he is on about. I lived in Göteborg before my family moved to London. I'm a Somalian and like a lot of us we are Muslims. Yet never have i seen anything race related happen.

That would be Gennaro. While he and I don't always agree on things he is a very intelligent and reasonable individual. I'm inclined to believe his assessment, an inclination strengthened by hearing the same things from numerous other sources.

Before continuing, I must stress that it is not my intent to piss anyone off or needlessly stir things up, but if we're going to have a discussion of these matters we might as well get to the meat of it.

I don't know but must assume that the problems Gennaro and others mention are not uniform across the countries in question but localized in certain regions. Such is certainly the case here in the US. It's also by most accounts a fairly recent development. Further, and bearing in mind the previous segment, I posit that a Somali Muslim living in Sweden (or Britain for that matter) would not notice such things as described or react as strongly, due to being the outsider. When an immigrant looks around their adopted country they are less apt to notice change and less attached to what was. When a native sees their country declining and can tie it directly in some aspect to the influx of people from elsewhere they get very defensive and I can't blame them for doing so.

The only reason why there is low birth rate amongst Europeans is because women are out there working. They are not forced to stay home and having a baby can be hell on your career. It's no one's fault. Unless we want to remove the freedom that women have we should be quiet about it.

Missing a few important points here. European countries could just not let anyone else in. I expect that it won't be long before some of them enact just such a policy. Problem solved. They could force immigrants to assimilate culturally or deport them, problem solved. No nation is required to open it's doors to foreigners. If they really wanted to get sneaky they could sterilize immigrants with "vaccines" to get one generation of cheap labor as needed.

Quoting that last line alone would also miss the point, a few are itching to do so.

See, in any nation nothing demographic exists in a vacuum. Women working tends to reduce the birthrate, which over time thins the workforce and drives up wages. Immigrant workers become financially attractive because they're cheaper. However, introducing immigrants without culturally assimilating them is essentially the same as allowing foreign colonists to reside on your territory. Many European countries are rapidly ceasing to be "nations" in the sense they once were, meaning confined groups of people sharing a common culture, language and heritage. Instead they are becoming a hodgepodge of mutually exclusive ethnic and cultural factions with no real intent to blend contained within a series of now-meaningless borders. For the immigrants this may be all well and good, but the Europeans themselves are watching their homelands metamorphose into something alien and in almost every respect less desireable.

Let me be clear, it is not immigration itself that is a problem nor is it really a question of race. It's one of culture. Increasingly, immigrants from certain areas of the world do not assimilate into their adopted country. When Europeans do it it's called "colonialism" and decried as a great evil, guilt-inducing the descendents of those "colonialists" to accept the cultural invasion of their own lands. Either they snap back in the fiery fashion the peoples of Europe have historically been prone to or Western Civilization sinks under the weight of cultures with less enlightened ideals in many respects and less to show for their tenure. Either way, it won't be pretty and pretending nothing is going on does a service to none.

I know, I'm such a Nazi.
I'll catch the mud if it makes someone think. <shrug>

Palomar · 2005-07-08 12:08:46

*My 2 cents' worth. Basically, I agree with Cobra (with some exceptions). Read what he wrote carefully.

The Europeans are the natives to their lands. I wonder if they'll become the first to willingly invite subjugation upon themselves...if they haven't already.

I moved to a different culture a dozen years ago. I understood that assimilation would be part of the deal: Major differences and minor differences.

However, there's also the issue of their sometimes refusal to want to assimiliate into the overall American culture. They look to the north and wonder why folks "up there" have it so much better. It didn't just happen: The people "up there" (at least in my original neck of the woods) were generally cooperative with one another, neighborly and united in common goals. Can't say the same for the overall cultural attitude here.

It's got to be give and take to be healthy. Not just superimposition and take. The spring must replenish itself or it'll run dry...

--Cindy

Stormrage · 2005-07-08 12:19:32

When a native sees their country declining and can tie it directly in some aspect to the influx of people from elsewhere they get very defensive and I can't blame them for doing so.

Maybe possible. I used to hang around with finnish kids before i moved to London.

They could force immigrants to assimilate culturally or deport them, problem solved.

Immigrants DO assimilate themselves. Look at the Indian people here in London. Especially the children. Adults will find it hard to lose there culture beacuse they grew up with it but children won't.

Btw why should they lose there culture? Isn't it enough for them to obey the laws of that country?

If they really wanted to get sneaky they could sterilize immigrants with "vaccines" to get one generation of cheap labor as needed.

Thats how Hitler viewed the jews when he forced them to work in the concerntration camps. Do you really mean this or is it a joke?

Many European countries are rapidly ceasing to be "nations" in the sense they once were, meaning confined groups of people sharing a common culture, language and heritage.

I wonder why no one complains about the "americanastion" yet they are willing to complain about people who don't want to lose there culture.

Instead they are becoming a hodgepodge of mutually exclusive ethnic and cultural factions with no real intent to blend contained within a series of now-meaningless borders. For the immigrants this may be all well and good, but the Europeans themselves are watching their homelands metamorphose into something alien and in almost every respect less desireable.

Can you give me an example of this?

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-08 12:54:27

Immigrants DO assimilate themselves. Look at the Indian people here in London. Especially the children. Adults will find it hard to lose there culture because they grew up with it but children won't.

Most immigrants assimilate. But it takes time and in the process they affect the culture around them as well. If too many are taken in and they assimilate too slowly the culture erodes. In the case of European culture eroding to Middle Eastern and African culture, I have no problem saying that I think it's a profound loss for humanity. I catch alot of flack for that, but there it is.

Btw why should they lose there culture? Isn't it enough for them to obey the laws of that country?

When a person moves to a new country it's expected. It's part of the deal. No population can reasonably be expected to yield to the cultural norms of immigrants, especially when, and this is important they don't obey the laws of that country for largely cultural reasons. Numerous examples abound in this very thread.

If they really wanted to get sneaky they could sterilize immigrants with "vaccines" to get one generation of cheap labor as needed.

Thats how Hitler viewed the jews when he forced them to work in the concerntration camps. Do you really mean this or is it a joke?

Ooh, make the Nazi comparison and use the line specifically labeled for out-of-context quoting in the same sentence.

For extra clarity, I don't mean it but it's not joke. It's merely one of many viable options for dealing with the issue, though one to which I do not subscribe. It's purpose is to illustrate, in context with the other examples, that your "take freedom from women or shut up about it" answer is lacking a full grasp of the issue.

I'm probably coming across a little hostile in text here, again that isn't my intent. I'm not a racist nor I am making any personal attacks, just arguing a position.

I wonder why no one complains about the "americanastion" yet they are willing to complain about people who don't want to lose there culture.

It seems to me everyone complains about "Americanisation", even some people in America.

???

Can you give me an example of this?

It's the logical conclusion of a documented continent-wide trend.

Numerous examples have been mentioned previously in the thread if I recall correctly, but they generally center around the documented fact that the Muslim birthrate in Europe is roughly three times higher than the native birthrate. That kind of volume can't be effectively assimilated and therefore the native culture gets swamped. As that plays out, the borders become as artificial and meaningless as those in the MidEast. Lines on a map, nothing more.

The native Europeans will only be pushed so far. Mark my words, it's going to get ugly.

BWhite · 2005-07-08 13:14:29

As an aside, on my recent trip to South Dakota numerous gift shops had t-shirts with drawings of Native Americans some holding bows/arrows and others rifles with the caption:

Department of Homeland Security - - Established 1492

BWhite · 2005-07-08 13:30:29

Numerous examples have been mentioned previously in the thread if I recall correctly, but they generally center around the documented fact that the Muslim birthrate in Europe is roughly three times higher than the native birthrate. That kind of volume can't be effectively assimilated and therefore the native culture gets swamped. As that plays out, the borders become as artificial and meaningless as those in the MidEast. Lines on a map, nothing more.

If religion is a greater component in one's identity than nationality, lines on a map become meaningless.

Stormrage · 2005-07-08 13:39:04

Most immigrants assimilate. But it takes time and in the process they affect the culture around them as well. If too many are taken in and they assimilate too slowly the culture erodes. In the case of European culture eroding to Middle Eastern and African culture, I have no problem saying that I think it's a profound loss for humanity. I catch alot of flack for that, but there it is.

Whats wrong with that? If an immigrant comes and still sticks with his culture that's his problem. Unless he forces others to be part of it.

No population can reasonably be expected to yield to the cultural norms of immigrants.

Who is saying that? All i am saying is that the immigrant be allowed to keep his culture. No one else has to be forced into anything.

Ooh, make the Nazi comparison and use the line specifically labeled for out-of-context quoting in the same sentence.
For extra clarity, I don't mean it but it's not joke. It's merely one of many viable options for dealing with the issue, though one to which I do not subscribe. It's purpose is to illustrate, in context with the other examples, that your "take freedom from women or shut up about it" answer is lacking a full grasp of the issue.
I'm probably coming across a little hostile in text here, again that isn't my intent. I'm not a racist nor I am making any personal attacks, just arguing a position.

Well your idea was implemented by the Nazi and is genocide. Which was completely diffrent from what i said. I said that unless we want to strip the freedom women have we shouldn't be complain about the low birth rate in Europe.

It seems to me everyone complains about "Americanisation", even some people in America.

Really? Never heard anyone complain.

It's the logical conclusion of a documented continent-wide trend.
Numerous examples have been mentioned previously in the thread if I recall correctly, but they generally center around the documented fact that the Muslim birthrate in Europe is roughly three times higher than the native birthrate. That kind of volume can't be effectively assimilated and therefore the native culture gets swamped. As that plays out, the borders become as artificial and meaningless as those in the MidEast. Lines on a map, nothing more.
The native Europeans will only be pushed so far. Mark my words, it's going to get ugly.

So your basically saying that you got no proof and heard rumors of situations like that.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#101 2004-11-21 01:21:59

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#102 2004-11-21 04:12:17

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#103 2004-11-21 09:57:04

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#104 2005-02-24 19:24:30

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#105 2005-02-25 04:18:33

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#106 2005-02-25 10:00:31

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#107 2005-02-25 16:41:16

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#108 2005-03-07 14:07:30

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#109 2005-03-07 16:20:24

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#110 2005-03-07 16:44:31

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#111 2005-03-07 19:13:16

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#112 2005-03-18 02:24:36

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#113 2005-07-01 12:22:13

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#114 2005-07-01 12:33:01

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#115 2005-07-01 12:50:15

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#116 2005-07-01 12:57:14

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#117 2005-07-07 06:36:46

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#118 2005-07-08 10:35:03

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#119 2005-07-08 11:21:08

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#120 2005-07-08 12:08:46

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#121 2005-07-08 12:19:32

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#122 2005-07-08 12:54:27

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#123 2005-07-08 13:14:29

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#124 2005-07-08 13:30:29

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#125 2005-07-08 13:39:04

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Board footer