Corporal Punishment on Mars - Should it be Permitted or Not?

Scott G. Beach · 2005-01-20 23:35:58

Jessica Serafin was severely beaten on June 18, 2004, while she was a student at School of Excellence in Education, which is located in San Antonio, Texas. Brett Wilkinson, the school principal, beat Jessica with a 4-foot-long wooden paddle. He beat her so severely that she was subsequently taken to a hospital for emergency medical treatment. Additional details about this beating may be found at http://www.susanohanian.org/show_atroci … ml?id=3499

Should corporal punishment be permitted on Mars?

Should the "Constitution of Mars" prohibit violence against children?

BWhite · 2005-01-20 23:50:18

No corporal punishment allowed.

Privates and sargeants? Sure, no problem.

Gennaro · 2005-01-21 06:47:16

Children should never be severly beaten. People/parents who do that have serious attitude problems and aren't fit for their role. Problem is "corporal punishment" is a wiiide category and it disrupts any debate about it.
Teachers for example must be allowed to use some force, otherwise a classroom (depending on the pupils) will risk degenerating into an apehouse rather swiftly. I know this from personal experience since teachers are prohibited by law to use physical force around here. It's not uncommon for violent little monsters to threat or beat up teachers but file lawsuits themselves if as much as a hair is crossed on them.

clark · 2005-01-21 10:33:17

Just medicate the hell out of em.

JammerG55 · 2005-01-21 15:38:40

ok i believe that its ok to give spankings, even with a wooden handle, but not to the point of beating. if you concider corprial punishment to be spanking then i am for it but if that includes beating the living daylights you of the little snot then no i dont agree.

Scott G. Beach · 2005-01-21 18:49:35

JammerG55:

You wrote that "if you consider corporal punishment to be spanking then I am for it but if that includes beating the living daylights [out of a child]" then you are not in favor of corporal punishment.

Jessica Serafin was beaten with a board and survived. Laree Slack, 12, was beaten with an electrical cable in accordance with the Biblical prescription "40 lashes minus 1, times three." This did beat the living daylights out of her -- she died. See the details at http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/2001/dec01/ … other.html

The problem with allowing corporal punishment is that it WILL be carried to extremes and children will be maimed and killed. I therefore believe that corporal punishment should not be allowed on Mars.

If you favor spanking (hitting the buttocks), please recognize that the nerve endings in a girl's buttocks are connected to her clitoris (these nerves are sexually functional during dorso-ventral copulation). Spanking a girl can teach her to associate violent assault with sexual stimulation and this "lesson" can derail her normal sexual development.

Gennaro · 2005-01-22 21:15:11

The problem with allowing corporal punishment is that it WILL be carried to extremes and children will be maimed and killed.

No, it won't.

If you favor spanking (hitting the buttocks), please recognize that the nerve endings in a girl's buttocks are connected to her clitoris (these nerves are sexually functional during dorso-ventral copulation). Spanking a girl can teach her to associate violent assault with sexual stimulation and this "lesson" can derail her normal sexual development.

Commodore · 2005-01-22 21:23:43

The problem with allowing corporal punishment is that it WILL be carried to extremes and children will be maimed and killed.
No, it won't.

Someday, some where, somehow, it will.

The question is are we going to punish all parents to 18 years of hell and society to dealing with a bunch of spoiled brats ont he account of a couple of bad apples?

Gennaro · 2005-01-22 21:26:21

Someday, some where, somehow, it will.

Someday, somewhere everything will.

The question is are we going to punish all parents to 18 years of hell and society to dealing with a bunch of spoiled brats?

Yeah.

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-24 11:18:58

Much to consider here. Some thoughts in no particualr order:

Should corporal punishment be permitted on Mars?

To paraphrase many others in this thread, it depends largely on how you define it. What specifically does "corporal punishment" mean in this context? The current term is too vague for any meaningful debate. Such vagaries make for bad law.

Should the "Constitution of Mars" prohibit violence against children?

No, for variations on these reasons:
1) Prohibitions in a Constitution function best when they are prohibitions on government. If you want it to be illegal for government agents to administer corporal punishment (such as in schools) simply enact a law to that effect, the constitution isn't really the place for it if it's meant to restrict the citizenry, particularly in such a vague manner.

2) Such a constitutional decree will be abused. For example, if we define "children" as anyone not an adult it could be argued that a 17 year old multiple murderer cannot be punished or perhaps even apprehended against his will because of a well-meaning "no violence against children" clause.

Law is not a solution to problems.

On a more practical level, if any form of physical force is off the table we're left with allowing children to do whatever they want or resorting to shame and humiliation. Neither strikes me as a good alternative.

BWhite · 2005-01-24 11:53:53

I personally oppose spanking fairly close to absolutely and in the proper forums will argue that point with great enthusiasm.

That said, I do not understand how any society can involve itself in "parenting style" unless physical punishment rises to the level of abuse. Society MUST punish child abuse and a catch-all defense of "parental discipline" holds no water with me. On the other hand, to micro-manage things like a symbolic open handed swat gives "society" too mich power.

That said, I very strongly support programs which teach that spanking is "ill advised" in 99.9% of cases and if someone asserts physical punishment of children is "necessary" - - that mere tells me that the parents have failed miserably (as parents) somewhere before the incident in question.

To assert a need to spank is a screaming admission of parental ineptitude, IMHO.

All cruelty springs from weakness, even spanking.

This comments apply to corporeal punishment only.

Despite the apparent widespread use of the term "corporal" punishment I continue to believe this is evidence of a continuing debasement of the English language.

Corporals fall between privates and sargeants. Sorry.

:;):

Edited By BWhite on 1106589336

Scott G. Beach · 2005-01-24 23:00:29

Mr. White:

You wrote, "...the term 'corporal' punishment I continue to believe this is evidence of a continuing debasement of the English language." I am inclined to agree with you on this point. However, my Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary indicates that "corporeal" is an obsolete way to spell corporal.

Scott G. Beach · 2005-01-25 00:31:07

Cobra:

You asked, "What specifically does 'corporal punishment' mean in this context?"

On June 14, 2004, the Attorney General of the State of Texas issued an Opinion in which he defined corporal punishment as "physical force used to punish a child." In Texas schools, that usually means beating a student with an open hand or with a paddle. Such beatings are usually applied to a student's buttocks. In some schools in Florida, students may be beaten on their buttocks and/or thighs.

The Texas Attorney General's Opinion is posted on the web at http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/ga/ … ga0202.pdf

Shaun Barrett · 2005-01-25 00:32:23

Bill:-

Corporals fall between privates and sargeants. Sorry.

Personally, I think spelling 'sergeants' as 'sargeants' is a debasement of the English language.
... :;): [Sorry .. jus' messin' witcha, bro'. ]

Bill:-

To assert a need to spank is a screaming admission of parental ineptitude, IMHO.

Oh boy! :laugh:

::Edit:: Oh .. and all the luck in the world, Bill!

BWhite · 2005-01-25 08:09:46

Bill:-
Bill:-
To assert a need to spank is a screaming admission of parental ineptitude, IMHO.
Oh boy! :laugh:
::Edit:: Oh .. and all the luck in the world, Bill!

My children are doing just fine, 11 and 4, and neither my wife or I have ever struck either one. Not once.

When I observe other parents use physical punishment, it seems to me to be intended as a time-saver, its easier to just whack 'em one so the dad can get back to watching football that much quicker.

Not always, but often.

Saying "Tell me why you did that" will usually get my older one to acknowledge "Yes daddy, I shouldn't have done that."

Fortunately both children are genuinely kind and have empathy for others and a desire to be "good" so maybe we have it easier than most parents - - maybe its the genes!

Edited By BWhite on 1106662657

Palomar · 2005-01-25 09:31:51

Bill:-
Bill:-
To assert a need to spank is a screaming admission of parental ineptitude, IMHO.
Oh boy! :laugh:
::Edit:: Oh .. and all the luck in the world, Bill!
My children are doing just fine, 11 and 4, and neither my wife or I have ever struck either one. Not once.
When I observe other parents use physical punishment, it seems to me to be intended as a time-saver, its easier to just whack 'em one so the dad can get back to watching football that much quicker.
Not always, but often.
Saying "Tell me why you did that" will usually get my older one to acknowledge "Yes daddy, I shouldn't have done that."
Fortunately both children are genuinely kind and have empathy for others and a desire to be "good" so maybe we have it easier than most parents - - maybe its the genes!

*Well...I've not actually -raised- a child (my daughter died in infancy), so I don't feel particularly qualified to comment on actual parenting skills. But I do have some comments anyway.

Bill, what about parents who scream at their kids? I've heard some parents holler at their kids in a manner which nearly curdles the blood.

I've seen parent-child dynamics where physical punishment isn't meted out, but the child is still out of control and the parents seem inept.

I've known children who were spanked (not harshly nor severely, maybe just 1 little swat to the backside occasionally) who grew up rather well-adjusted, responsible, etc.

There are varying degrees of spanking: The 1 small "knock it off!" swat versus upending the kid over one's knee and thrashing the living daylights out of them. :-\

There are other forms of physical punishment too: I remember one elementary school teacher who'd grip your bicep so hard you thought her fingers would penetrate through to the bone. Hurt like hell. That sort of "reinforcement" only fosters resentment and distrust.

I'm in favor of trying to reason with children and finding non-contact ways of trying to redirect negative behavior. I have taken care of children (my nephew, extensive babysitting in my younger years) -- I always opted for talking with them, trying to positively redirect bad behaviors; I once had to deal with a 2-year-old who threw a screaming, crying temper tantrum for nearly 2 hours straight (on top of which I was feeling rather ill at the time); I didn't lay a hand on him, simply once asked him to be quiet, tried a couple of times to coax him (gently) into calming down (he wouldn't), and otherwise just kept an eye on him until his emotional storm passed.

But it seems there are many ways parents can be "inept." And far be it from me to know much, indepth, about it.

Some people "luck out" and have generally good, affable, quiet, cooperative kids. Some people get rambunctious, unruly, hyper and aggressive kids. Sometimes it doesn't seem to even have much to do with parenting techniques; I've known good parents with rotten kids, I've known less than desirable parents with really good kids.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-01-25 10:10:38

Cindy - I do not mean to say "never" - - read my earlier post about open handed swats.

Harsh screaming can be worse, much worse, than an open handed swat and I agree with Cobra, shame and humiliation are very destructive and must be avoided.

In my own experience, I have had the urge to whack the little monsters. And in retrospect, those urges arose mostly when I was tired, stressed, overextended or angry.

But, to indulge myself and strike my child because I am not in control of myself just seems wrong. That said, if I were ever to give an open handed swat out of frustration, I wouldn't agonize with guilt. I am only human, too.

But I would admit to myself I was wrong and understand the need to repair the relationship with my child.

= = =

Now, if forced to choose between too permissive and too authoritarian, a good dose of authoritarian may be better. A swat or mild spanking is better than excessive permissiveness.

But it's still not BEST.

My wife and I have the objective of being NEITHER permissive or authoritarian. Frankly, many parents waffle between permisiveness and authoritarianism. And I have observed spanking become necessary AFTER and because of excessive parental permissiveness.

If parents have been too permissive in the past, then spanking may be necessary and appropriate, but look at the premise. Spanking became necessary because reasonable expectations were not enforced earlier in the parenting process.

Like I said earlier, society should encourage options other than spanking yet Sweden's law making all physical punishment illegal goes too far.

In other words, moderate corporeal punishment can be excused in certain circumstances. It may become necessary and is preferable to excessive permissiveness.

But the goal should be to avoid the excessive permissiveness to begin with.

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-25 10:19:39

In other words, moderate corporeal punishment can be excused in certain circumstances. It may become necessary and is preferable to excessive permissiveness.
But the goal should be to avoid the excessive permissiveness to begin with.

I concur.

*Well...I've not actually -raised- a child (my daughter died in infancy),

I'm sorry to hear that, my belated condolences.

C M Edwards · 2005-01-25 10:27:05

Oh! Another peripherally related thread where I can act like I know what I'm talking about!

Ahem...

When my wife and I became foster parents, we signed a contract forbidding us to use corporal punishment in any form, whether we liked it or not. (We signed, with foreboding.)

According to the nice folks at the Office of Community Services, there are several reasons behind that requirement.

Corporal punishment isn't widely believed to work over the long term. It appears to be mainly employed as a "quick fix" for difficult behaviors, to make the child stop immediately, but there's little evidence that it has lasting effectiveness. (You can stop Johnny's screaming in public with a good "brain duster", but you can't keep him from doing it again without some other form of discipline.) It rewards the parent, too, giving them a sense of control coupled with instant gratification, so there's the potential for abuse.

Where it is seen to be effective, that effectiveness hinges on the child's trust for the parent. As an illustration, imagine that you are walking along when a grizzly bear runs out of the forest, snatches you up, throws you over a log, and paddles you. Are you likely to philosophically accept your discipline and try to do better for brother bear, or are you likely to scream and attempt an escape at all costs? Without instilling trust in the child through other means, corporal punishment is just a waste of muscle power.

Then there's the biblical argument. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is the most quoted biblical proverb used to defend the use of corporal punishment. That verse refers to a shepherd's crook. If you've ever seen someone use a rod to herd sheep, you'd know that the sheep are rarely struck fiercely at all, if ever. A tap here and there to guide them, and occassionally some very angy whacking at the ground are the most common uses. True, the sheep sometimes need a good smack. You can, in fact, kill a sheep with a well placed blow from a crook. But if all that you know how to do is whack your sheep upside the head, that makes you a very lousy shepherd. Likewise, if all you know how to do is spank your kids, that makes you a very lousy parent.

I can't tell you that I've never encountered a circumstance where a good hand-slapping wouldn't have been very useful (or at least, very satisfying). Even after all my practice at avoiding it, I still believe that corporal punishment can be effective in some circumstances. Regulating its use is a good idea; outlawing it is not. However, there are so many other means of discipline that I can assure you that you will not miss it if you opt to do without.

All the luck in the world, Bill.

BWhite · 2005-01-25 11:44:49

I can't tell you that I've never encountered a circumstance where a good hand-slapping wouldn't have been very useful (or at least, very satisfying). Even after all my practice at avoiding it, I still believe that corporal punishment can be effective in some circumstances. Regulating its use is a good idea; outlawing it is not. However, there are so many other means of discipline that I can assure you that you will not miss it if you opt to do without.

This is close enough to how I feel that to disagree would merely be nit-picking. . .

Try to avoid it, but there are times. . .

= = =

Then there's the biblical argument. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is the most quoted biblical proverb used to defend the use of corporal punishment. That verse refers to a shepherd's crook. If you've ever seen someone use a rod to herd sheep, you'd know that the sheep are rarely struck fiercely at all, if ever. A tap here and there to guide them, and occassionally some very angy whacking at the ground are the most common uses. True, the sheep sometimes need a good smack.

I agree with this also.

Sometimes sheep need a good smack, but the better the shepherd, the fewer those times will be. . .

Edited By BWhite on 1106675538

Mundaka · 2005-01-25 17:32:19

Mundaka · 2005-01-25 17:38:48

Shaun Barrett · 2005-01-25 18:29:13

The contrast between you enlightened people and the Barrett family is stark.
My kids were brought up in a harsh and uncertain environment where swift and terrible punishment could be meted out at any moment. The terror was palpable all day, every day.

My wife and I, through a kind of screaming parental ineptitude and an intellectual inability to exert discipline by any means other than blind rage and violence, would beat our children mercilessly. Regardless of any long-term effect it was having on their psychological well-being, which we were unable to comprehend anyway, we would beat them into cowering submission as a means of immediate control and instant personal gratification. Besides, it meant we could get back to the game show on T.V. that much quicker.

Naturally, this produced more and more antisocial behaviour in them until other parents shunned us and refused to allow their children to play with ours. Not that we cared much - damned namby-pamby excuses for parents, who didn't know the first thing about dishing out a good thrashing to their pampered namby-pamby kids!

It's only now that we've begun to realise that maybe we were wrong - now that our children have grown up as sociopaths, in and out of correctional institutions, and hating us with a passion.
Or is it just our genes? ???

[Kids!! Can't live with 'em .. can't shoot 'em. ]

Scott G. Beach · 2005-01-25 22:31:01

The following letters represent my efforts to stop child abuse.

Dear Attorney General Abbott:

I am forwarding to you a copy of my recent e-mail message to Mr. Albert Ortiz, who is the Chief of Police of the City of San Antonio, Texas. I have requested that Chief Ortiz go to the School of Excellence in Education and confiscate the 48-inch-long paddle that was used to beat Ms. Jessica Serafin on June 18, 2004. I believe that paddle constitutes a weapon and that it should not be on the premises of any school.

If Chief Ortiz fails to remove that weapon from the School of Excellence in Education by 5 p.m. today then I hereby request that tomorrow YOU initiate a criminal investigation about the beating of Ms. Serafin.

Ms. Serafin was beaten during the summer so it is unlikely that she was wearing gloves on her hands. When Principal Brett Wilkinson smashed Ms. Serafin's hand with the aforementioned weapon, some of Ms. Serafin's flesh probably became embedded in the surface of that weapon. That weapon could therefore be regarded as evidence in a criminal investigation and you could go to the School of Excellence in Education and take that weapon into your possession and then REMOVE it from the premises of that school. Remove it before it is used to beat anyone else!

The Constitution of the State of Texas prohibits "cruel or unusual punishment." Smashing Ms. Serafin's hand with a four-foot-long board went far beyond "cruel." It was outright vicious. Furthermore, beating Ms. Serafin with a four-foot-long board was "unusual." No where else in the civilized world is such a device used to beat students in the name of educating them.

What was done to Ms. Serafin under the color of Texas law is a stain on the reputation on the people of Texas. You can begin the process of removing that stain by removing that four-foot-long board from the School of Excellence in Education.

If both you and Chief Ortiz fail to prevent that device of viciousness from being used to beat children then I will take this matter to the Governor of the State of Texas, and then to the United States Department of Education and the United States Attorney General, and finally to the President of the United States. And I will also make sure that Mrs. Laura Bush becomes aware of the vicious and maniacal beating of Ms. Serafin.

Sincerely, Scott G. Beach

cc: Chief Ortiz, et al.

----------------

Dear Chief of Police Ortiz:

Ms. Sonja Garza of the San Antonio Express-News recently reported that a woman named Jessica Serafin was severely beaten at the School of Excellence in Education, which is located in San Antonio, Texas. Ms. Serafin was beaten by the school's Principal, Mr. Brett Wilkinson, who reportedly used a 48-inch-long spanking paddle to hit Jessica on the leg, hip, hand, and buttocks. After this beating, Jessica was taken to a hospital for emergency medical treatment. At the time of the beating,Ms. Serafin was a legal ADULT and she had NOT consented to being beaten AND she attempted to defend herself from being beaten.

I searched the Internet on the topic of spanking paddles and found that the longest commercially available spanking paddle is 24 inches long. I believe that the 48-inch-long paddle that Mr. Wilkinson used to beat Ms. Serafin was DESIGNED to cause serious bodily injury and that it should therefore be regarded as a weapon. I have never seen Mr. Wilkinson's paddle but I suspect that it is so heavy that it must be held with both hands and that it must be swung with the force of both arms, not just flicked with the wrists.

The Constitution for the United States of America prohibits "cruel" punishment. I believe that it is a violation of the Constitution for anyone to use a 48-inch-long paddle to strike another person. I further believe that using such a paddle to strike any person constitutes an act of pure viciousness. If such a paddle were used to strike detainees at the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the United States would be condemned by people throughout the civilized world.

You should go to the School of Excellence in Education and confiscate that 48-inch-long paddle. If you don't, that weapon will be used to brutalize other students in violation of the United States Constitution.

Sincerely, Scott G. Beach

C M Edwards · 2005-01-26 06:43:57

The contrast between you enlightened people and the Barrett family is stark.
My kids were brought up in a harsh and uncertain environment where swift and terrible punishment could be meted out at any moment. The terror was palpable all day, every day.

:laugh:

I've often wondered what parenting options I might have explored without my current legal obligations. A meter long paddle sounds a bit excessive, but maybe just to hang over the door...

Of course, in the family I grew up in, we'd have had it down to fight each other with...

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