Interior Layout of the habitat

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-27 04:49:54

I agree, Phobos. Those truncated pie-slice bedrooms sound downright palatial compared to what I'd imagined!
I think I could cope quite nicely with quarters like that for a couple of years. Very cosy, in fact!
When do we leave?!

Byron · 2002-08-27 05:44:05

I'm curious on exactly what kind of furniture each crew member would have in each of the bedrooms. The odd-shaped area of the room will make the placement of such things as a bed and personal workstation a bit awkward....I imagine that the bed will be folded up against the wall when not in use, and the personal workstation be a built-in module nestled against the far wall, perhaps installed in a triangular formation in one corner. This way, there's still room to move around, have a place to hang clothes, etc.

One thing I consider vitally important is each room having its own window, and the *larger* the better. Nothing is worse than being cooped up in a closet-sized space with no view of the outside, and having that all-important view of the outside (imagine waking up each morning to a bluish-pink sunrise! ) will play a huge role in the crewmembers' morale. If I had my way, the whole outer wall would be made of glass, but I doubt that would be within the capablities of the hab engineers..

Cindy--got a laugh out of your post about you and numbers just not getting along...did you have this horrible orge for a math teacher in the 3rd grade or something? :-) Part of your thing about math may be just a fear of numbers...believe me, there's nothing to afraid of a little "trig"...all Rob had to do was to multiply the diameter of the hab (25 feet) by the value of pi (aprox 3.14), which gives the circumferance of 78.5 feet, and this is divided into 12 ways, which comes to 6.5 feet for each of the "slices" (the outer wall). That's not so bad, is it?

One thing I would change about the design, however, is considering that the central "core" space is almost 9 feet across, why not put the access from the lower levels (ladder steps or whatever) in the center, rather than wasting a whole 1/12th slice for stairs...

B

RobS · 2002-08-27 13:08:32

I'm glad the description was helpful. As to the questions:

I think I have given a bad estimate of the size of the central "hallway." Maybe it is more like 6 or 7 feet across, making the bedrooms more like 9 feet long.

Furniture: The *Mars Direct* hab pictured on page 118 gives some details. I'm not sure the Euro-hab design did; I can't remember. The Mars Direct picture (which we all saw on this Bulletin Board recently) showed a bed running along the long wall of the bedroom that was also slightly pie-slice shaped; it was narrowest at the door and widest against the outer wall. There were cabinets overhead for storage and a counter running along the outer wall that widened into a table (with a chair under it) in the corner opposite the bed. I did not see a closet-like place to hang clothes.

Windows: I think the Eurohab had 4, so no, each room does not have one. I think I read that somewhere also. There are issues of weight and stresses to remember.

Could I live in it: Sure, if I got outside every few days. On the six-month cruise I'd have to be patient, but I could be.

Many families in impoverished areas of the world live in this much space or less. We in the west tend to forget this. Children did not get private bedrooms until the 19th century; now we view them practically as a birthright. Our culture has changed significantly.

You might want to go to Plymouth Plantation in Massachusetts some time. The houses are replicas of the original 1620s settlement. A typical house was a log cabin 20 or 25 feet square, one room, with one door and maybe a window. There was a fireplace for heat. No sink or stove or bathroom. I remember walking into one of these houses--cabins--huts--with two friends and we found a lady inside dressed as a 17th century inhabitant. She was showing us where all her six kids slept (bunk beds) and one of my friends blurted out "but how do you have sex in a place like this?" The lady, in good 17th century fashion, did not answer the question. The fact is, the family lived in one big room, made babies there, the babies were born there, some of the babies died there... anyway, my point is, the hab ain't bad by comparison!

-- RobS

Palomar · 2002-08-27 15:32:51

Cindy--got a laugh out of your post about you and numbers just not getting along...did you have this horrible orge for a math teacher in the 3rd grade or something? :-) Part of your thing about math may be just a fear of numbers...

*Thanks...but now I see my post is missing! I'll try to retype it; I have a good memory. I'm not sure what my trouble with numbers is; they just "get" to me.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-08-27 21:32:22

I agree, Phobos. Those truncated pie-slice bedrooms sound downright palatial compared to what I'd imagined!
I think I could cope quite nicely with quarters like that for a couple of years. Very cosy, in fact!
When do we leave?!

My bags are already packed! Just show me the way to the launch pad. Anyways, even in some developed countries like Japan the average apartment isn't much bigger than what RobS described. With RobS's descriptions of there being cabinets and countertops in the room to boot it sounded a lot more livable than I had anticipated also. I was expecting bunk beds with little roll down doors as the only private quarters for the voyagers. I wish this hab would make a pitstop near my place so I could take a tour.

RobS · 2002-08-28 01:19:30

Tuesday afternoon I was driving down Lakeshore Drive, which is a divided highway running along the shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago. I came around a corner where the road goes out on a peninsula into the lake and suddenly cause a glimpse of the hab on the next peninsula south, about a mile away. I was surprised it was so easy to see at such a distance; but then, it is the size of a small house, and it is painted white, like many houses. I suddenly could imagine what it would be like to be returning in a rover from a two week excursion over Mars's dusty red plains and see the white hab on the horizon. What a feeling of home it would bring! I like it that they have painted it white. It stood out from the green and blue of the Lake Michigan shoreline, and it would similarly stand out in the Martian terrain. I hope they paint the first one to land on Mars white as well.

--RobS

periscopeboy · 2002-08-30 05:28:24

Question: I understand that the safe haven relies on the bulk of the stores as a shield from radiation. What happens as these stores are used up? Doesn't this mean less protection as the mission progresses?
On the issue of size of the hab - I served on board a small diesel submarine, and can tell you that this sounds absolutely luxurious. I'm positive the two year mission can be done if the people on board are carefully screened and have the willpower to do it.

Phobos · 2002-08-30 15:57:09

What a feeling of home it would bring! I like it that they have painted it white. It stood out from the green and blue of the Lake Michigan shoreline, and it would similarly stand out in the Martian terrain. I hope they paint the first one to land on Mars white as well.
--RobS

I've often thought about what it would be like to suddenly see the Hab come into view after a long day out in the field. I think that sense of home will be magnified about a 100x for the Mars explorers considering how hostile their environment will be. I wonder how they'll feel about leaving it behind. Will it be bittersweet to abandon the place that kept them safe for a year+?

Question: I understand that the safe haven relies on the bulk of the stores as a shield from radiation. What happens as these stores are used up? Doesn't this mean less protection as the mission progresses?
On the issue of size of the hab - I served on board a small diesel submarine, and can tell you that this sounds absolutely luxurious. I'm positive the two year mission can be done if the people on board are carefully screened and have the willpower to do it.

Good question, I never thought about what would happen once they used up most of their stores. Depending on how their stores are packaged maybe they could fill containers up with regolith and stack them in there. And I agree totally about the submarines. I still think there's not that much difference between a spacecraft and a submarine. For the first Mars crews it might be worthwhile trying to find people who had experience on submarines in addition to whatever specific skills they'd need for Mars. At least then you'd know that the people you are selecting can perform in cramped and confining conditions.

periscopeboy · 2002-08-31 06:06:30

I just checked out the Artemis Project website. They suggest using robots to cover up their lunar module in regolith, to insulate and act as a radiation shield. This might not be a bad idea. Question is how long it would take to do, and if holes can still be left for the windows and airlock door without compromising the shieldiness (just made that word up) of the cover.

Palomar · 2002-08-31 09:21:52

I wonder how they'll feel about leaving it behind. Will it be bittersweet to abandon the place that kept them safe for a year+?

*I should think so. The Apollo 13 astronauts bade farewell and "thank you" to the LEM which served as their "lifeboat" after the explosion which crippled the mission. Their lives will depend on the hab, its sturdiness and functionality. I'd be surprised if there were no sentimentality toward it upon leaving. They'll probably name it, too.

--Cindy

Merp · 2002-08-31 09:34:08

I just checked out the Artemis Project website. They suggest using robots to cover up their lunar module in regolith, to insulate and act as a radiation shield. This might not be a bad idea. Question is how long it would take to do, and if holes can still be left for the windows and airlock door without compromising the shieldiness (just made that word up) of the cover.

heh, shieldiness <!--emo&:D

Zubrin noted (briefly, as always) in The Case for Mars that the astronauts could fill sandbags with regolith upon arrival and lay them over the roof of the hab. The practicaility of this would depend on the condition of the astronauts on landing (It would be a shame if a weak astronaut fell off the roof of the Hab on M-Day 2 and broke a leg.)

Using regolith in some fashion would be appropriate and efficient, and suit the 'living off the land' theme of the exploration. The pressurised Rover could have a backhoe / shovel attachment for excavating and displacing regolith.

Gregory Benford noted in his novel The Martian Race that hab water was stored in a distributed fashion through the hull, to provide an addition layer of radiation coverage.

If water can be produced in-situ from permafrost or other sources it would be a good shielding material. The Astronauts could inflate bladders (either separable or built in) mounted on the roof or walls. It could not be assumed however that Astronauts could be able to find and extract water on the first mission though. Water has the advantage that it can be pumped from one location to another, albeit in a heavily insulated hose.

--Merp.

C.COMMARMOND (FR) · 2002-08-31 11:36:22

Hallo,

I agree with Merp, water is a good radiation shield, i think the walls of the hab (i don't remenber the english word) could be made from tank which could be filled of water on Mars before the crew arrives.

There could be windows made from the same kind of glass material used in nuclear plants.

Another point is that it is better if living places (rest rooms, bedrooms, kitchen...) are at the ground (at the lowest possible level) level since all the hab will then play the role of a shield.

After a time on Mars, crew could:
1 cover the hab with mars ground
2 try to build an underground hab (or a safer place) if a good place could be found (like a cave or good ground).

CC

RobS · 2002-09-03 19:49:06

Regarding the question of using up the supplies that also provide radiation shielding, the Hab carries all the supplies for the 6-month flight AND the 18 month stay on Mars, and shielding is only needed on the flight, so there should be plenty. Once they're on Mars, thr Mars atmosphere plus sandbags will serve quite well.

I may have more descriptions to offer of the Euro-hab. Thursday I stopped there and took 24 photographs, which I just developed. I photographed the blueprints of the three-level hab for Iceland and the pictures are nicer and clear. Using them, I'll try to post a description of the other two floors.

-- RobS

Phobos · 2002-09-04 22:24:00

I may have more descriptions to offer of the Euro-hab. Thursday I stopped there and took 24 photographs, which I just developed. I photographed the blueprints of the three-level hab for Iceland and the pictures are nicer and clear. Using them, I'll try to post a description of the other two floors.
-- RobS

Can't wait to see 'em.

RobS · 2002-09-07 00:27:27

I've developed my pictures of the Euro-Hab floor designs and can now describe the first and second floors.

The first floor really requires no description because it is identical to the floor plan someone posted a link to a few weeks ago. It has a large lab/work space that includes a medical area, an EVA prep room, and two airlocks. In terms of pie slices, the lab/workspace is about 2/3 of the pie and the EVA prep room 1/3. On either side of the EVA prep room is an airlock for exiting, a total of two. They are circular. The smaller one is probably the size of a phone booth; big enough for one person only. The larger one can probably accommodate two people in suits. The stairs to the second floor are located on one side of the lab/workspace.

The second floor can be described using "pie slices" as follows. Half the pie is a "living room" which includes six comfortable seats that can be pushed together to form a long couch, an oval table to seat six, and six chairs. The other half of the pie is harder to describe. It has a central circular area, but some of the slices open to the living room and not to the central core. Part of the core area serves as a kitchen. Another part is separated off with a wall that makes a rectangular room running all the way to the outer wall. That rectangular room, which opens onto the kitchen, is the bathroom. Almost a third of the half-pie is a "cockpit/shelter" with its door opening onto the living room. Another room--about a sixth of the half-pie--is a "fitness room" and it also opens onto the living room. The remaining space that is not kitchen, bathroom, cockpit, or fitness, is labeled "storage" and opens onto the kitchen with a door near the bathroom door. So we have this:

Top half of the pie: living room
Bottom half of the pie:
Left 1/3: cockpit
Middle half: kitchen in the "core", with bathroom between it and cockpit and storage "below" it, between it and the outer wall
Right 1/6: Fitness room

Like I said, it's hard to describe!

Driving home today, I looked at Adler Planetarium and I think I saw that the Hab was gone. There was still something there, but it was smaller and I finally concluded that it probably was the slice of greenhouse that had been next to the hab. The greenhouse "slice" had been a cylinder about 10-12 feet in diameter, but it was only about four feet long. I guess the hab is now making its journey to Iceland.

-- RobS

Phobos · 2002-09-07 22:12:40

Driving home today, I looked at Adler Planetarium and I think I saw that the Hab was gone. There was still something there, but it was smaller and I finally concluded that it probably was the slice of greenhouse that had been next to the hab. The greenhouse "slice" had been a cylinder about 10-12 feet in diameter, but it was only about four feet long. I guess the hab is now making its journey to Iceland.
-- RobS

Was the greenhouse "slice" shown next to the hab a scaled down version of the inflatable dome they plan to have on Mars or was it basically a "this place right here would be where the greenhouse is" kind of thing? I have particular interest in the greenhouse for some reason. If I ever went to Mars I think I would be most interested in experimenting with agriculture.

RobS · 2002-09-08 07:07:45

I think the "greenhouse" was supposed to be a slice through a long cylinder that someone proposed for Mars. I don't think it resembled the Arthur C. Clarke Greenhouse being taken to Devon Island. The literature explained it had a very practical purpose for the Devon and Utah sites; processing gray water. Sewage treatment would be an ecological problem at the Devon Island site, so it makes sense.

-- RobS

RobertDyck · 2002-09-08 09:05:20

Yes, that cylinder is supposed to represent a slice through a pressurized greenhouse. The slice, however, is not pressurized. The Arthur C. Clark greenhouse on Devon Island is not pressurized, or even cylindrical. It's a commercial greenhouse with ribs and a slant roof, and has a plywood floor. That was an attempt to get "something" on Devon Island. The GreenHab folks have wanted to build a grey water sewage processing system to recycle human waste into nutrients for plants in the greenhouse. Environmentalists in Nunavut have prevented building such a thing on Devon Island; they aren't permitted to import the bacteria for fear of "contaminating" the ecosystem of the island. I thought those rules prevented importing any plants, but the greenhouse is built. In fact, last I heard they aren't permitted to build an outhouse; human waste must be air-lifted off the island.

I prefer the design of a pressurized greenhouse without ribs, and a non-cylindrical shape. That design was first developed by Penelope Boston, and depicted in the painting of a Mars base by Robert Murray.

turbo · 2002-09-08 10:58:51

So, is it go with the BIOLET types and tell the Nanavut the bacteria is within the hab crews' bodies...OR time to get a greenhouse set up in Utah?

I wonder, since the upper level of the Devon Island hab seems to get too hot for human comfort, anyway to reconfigure the roof and make the top of the hab a greenhouse?

As for greywater treatment, are these better designs than the solar distillation set-ups used in the Texas-Mexico border areas (aka "colonias")? Last I looked, the typical design ran about $200 USD in materials.

I wish best of luck to Eurohab!
turbo

Gibbon · 2002-09-25 06:48:59

umm, I haven't read EVERY reply to this topic, but couldn't they just package a third floor in a crate and just build it on top? I'm sure it could be used as some team-building thingo that the big companies all seem to love. I believe that the prototype has a crane attached, this could be put to use by lifting equipment and pre-fab building materials up to the third floor.

Also, a rocket could be sent up with a large prefab set of load-bearing walls that, when put together, would look pretty much like shipping containers. You could dig a pit, build this larger hab, and cover it in regolith (If it weren't for the Mars trilogy I wouldn't have a clue what that word is ) This new underground area wouldn't take too long to complete and I'm sure that in training they astronauts (mars-o-nauts) could practice building one.

RobS · 2002-09-26 00:42:35

There has been a lot of research on inflatable habitats; they arrive on Mars (or the International Space Station) in a box, you add air, and they expand. Then you go inside, install the stove and refrigerator (well, and the water lines, toilet, etc.). I suspect you have to add hard floor panels and maybe even wall panels. The advantage of this kind of structure is that something you assemble from separate pieces may be hard to make airtight, or may take a lot of time. Inflatables start airtight and you just install the interior.

Do a Google search on "transhab" for details.

-- RobS

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-27 19:18:54

I like the idea of adding interior panels to an inflatable hab, thus circumventing the problem of air leakage.
I was wondering whether there is any type of really thin lightweight panelling with some kind of polymer interior capable of mopping up radiation? In other words is any research being done, I wonder, on materials which are 'radiation-dense' while not being dense in the usual sense of the word?
I guess I'm asking a lot, but materials science seems to produce some literally fantastic stuff these days.
:0

RobertDyck · 2002-09-28 20:48:08

I don't know about radiation, but interior walls don't have to be radiation shields. Interior partition walls could be similar to office cubicle partitions: fabric. You could make them lighter by using taught cables inside the wall for structure, Nomex wall surface, loose weave Kevlar or Spectra mesh inside the Nomex to distribute force to the cables, and drapeable aerogel interior for acoustic insulation. Nomex is the same material as the inner wall of TransHAB. The cables would require a rigid frame, but that would be just an outline of the wall. This would give a smooth, sheet plastic surface but very light-weight.

RobS · 2002-09-29 22:45:36

As I understand it, hydrogen atoms are some of the best radiation shielding that exists. So water or plastic that is rich in hydrogen bonds (and hydrogens) are reasonably good radiation shielding. But you really can't duplicate the radiation shielding we have at the earth's surface because every square meter of ground surface has 10 tonnes of air above it. It's hard to believe it's that much, but it's true. We have a massive, reasonably transparent radiation shield in the sky.

But according to Case for Mars, the usual amount of shielding that ordinary habitat and spacecraft walls provide is normally adequate. When a solar flare occurs, you have to go inside a solar flare shelter; bad flares will kill anyone outside of a shelter for a few hours. But a shelter is simply a small place in the ship where you stack your food and furniture around you. They are adequate to stop most solar flare radiation.

Cosmic rays are the hard things to stop, and shielding can actually make them worse. High energy cosmic rays pass right through the human body, damaging only a small line of cells. Add shielding, and the ray is stopped and broken into a shower of a dozen weaker particles, all of which bore passages through the human body.

On the surface of Mars, you can pile 2 or 3 meters of regolith over your hab and stop the cosmic rays quite adequately.

-- RobS

Ronman · 2002-10-06 13:47:51

I have to ask why the current cylindrical hab isn't split in two down the middle - making two quansut (?) hut type units. That would have to give you more floor space, with bunks along the outer walls where the curve of the ceiling meets the floor. It would even bury in the ground better. As you probably know, the reason that culvert pipe is as thin as it is - is because the dirt forms a structural loadbearing arch that works with the culvert pipe in a synergistic way.

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