Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

anansi · 2002-06-14 17:32:47

Urban planners rarely like to talk about how modern cities on earth are shaped and constrained by their sewer systems. But martian colonists will have no such luxery. What earth does for free, martians will have to pay for in capital and attention.

Will water be so cheap to process on mars that we'll want to use it for sewer transport? I think if we choose that option, it will become a serious bottleneck for homegrown expansion.

...and then there's the buttwipe question. Here in the states, the softest toilet paper is made from old growth timber pulp, mostly imported from canada. While I suppose alternatives might be grown on mars, like hemp or some other fiber, I expect martians will find it more expedient to develop a more efficient solution. Not as sexy as a new calendar, but it's got to be addressed sometime!

Adrian · 2002-06-14 18:01:15

Addressing the buttwipe question - I think that any kind of disposable solution is just unacceptable given resource constraints. Tissues or the like would have to be recycleable (and no, I wouldn't volunteer for the job). Now, providing that the colonists have sufficient energy and good water supplies/recycling, then they could just use a bidet - the wash and blow-dry solution

C M Edwards · 2002-06-15 06:52:55

Hemp paper sounds like a good solution to the TP question.

Regarding sewage, what solutions are used in areas with low water, dry conditions, and or where temperatures make long distance flow an impossibility?

Septic tanks come to mind, as do Modads (essentially, a home sewage treatment system added to a septic tank). These solutions can be found in most rural areas in the US.

There's also all that free freeze drying available right outside.

Note that on Mars, large liquid water reservoirs do not exist without energy expenditures (large ice reservoirs would have to be melted to make them), the ambient air will freeze dry any exposed sewage treatment ponds, and the average surface temperatures will freeze and crack sewer line.

CME

Adrian · 2002-06-15 08:37:20

Solutions such as grey water recycling will be used on Mars by colonists, but it's difficult to tell exactly what they will end up doing since there are bound to be significant advances in water recycling in the next few decades. Miniaturisation of cleaning methods via biological and nanotech* methods could produce a low energy solution to surviving on minimal amounts of water.

*I'm not talking about little nanobots here, just things like advanced filters.

anansi · 2002-06-15 11:24:04

I'm of two minds about water and sewage. One scenario has water being really plentiful. It's a heat sink, radiation shield, fluid medium for aquaculture, and a moral booster. There might be plenty of open fountains and engineered streams as an indidantal part of the extensive waterworks. In these circumstances, Bio treatment could make a lot of sense.

OTOH, water might prove more expensive, and the pathway from sewage to food might need to be much shorter. We might need a dry transport mechanism, with gasses, ambient mars radiation, and time all having a part. I expect the sludge will be processed into hydroponic fluid, which'll then be sent to the ag domes.

Palomar · 2002-06-15 20:35:21

Well, since we're on the subject...

On page 118 of the paperback version of _The Case for Mars_ are diagrams of what the Mars Direct hab will look like inside (in two cut-across illustrations).

I see that each bedroom -- and another area not identified (what is it supposed to be?), which separates the bedrooms into two on one side of it, and two on the other -- abutts onto the area (semi-circular in shape) identified as "bathroom."

Does each astronaut have a private area of the bathroom to him/herself? There is no division of the Bathroom area. I'm presuming any waste will be dumped in space, like they did in the Apollo missions (and, I suppose, as they do on the shuttle and space station). However, what will be the method of keeping clean? I presume showers are out of the question. I'm thinking along the lines of a sponge bath? Perhaps reusable sanitary towelettes?

Another issue (which couldn't be addressed during the Apollo missions, but probably has been during the MIR and International Space Station stints) is the problem of hair. Men, of course, need to shave regularly; the Apollo astronauts could not shave because any stray hairs were a very potential hazard risk to the delicate instrumentation. Besides, they were returning home within a week; no big deal. Perhaps having a beard and mustache won't matter en-route to Mars and back to Earth; maybe it won't matter inside a spacesuit during a Mars mission. However, unless people want the hair on their heads grown down past their buttocks by the time they return to Earth (I'm referring strictly to the first crews of Marsian astronauts, and not settlers or colonists), there's going to have to be a way to cut hair and/or shave heads with minimum hazard risk.

?

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

sethmckiness · 2002-10-02 23:10:17

While I hate to say it.. a modified FlowBee might work quite well for cutting hair and taking care of most of the stray hairs, equipped with some sort of HEPA or micron filter it should function well.

Just a thought.

Palomar · 2002-10-03 12:37:09

While I hate to say it.. a modified FlowBee might work quite well for cutting hair and taking care of most of the stray hairs, equipped with some sort of HEPA or micron filter it should function well.
Just a thought.

*I think that is a very GOOD idea. I hadn't thought of a FlowBee, or something similar.

It might also be beneficial for the astronauts to maintain baldness -- yes, even the women -- and shave their heads every day. Whatever trace amounts of hair can grow on the head in one day shouldn't be hard to keep under control after it's shaven down, since it would basically amount to nothing.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-10-03 19:04:20

Going to Mars baldheaded seems like a practical and easy solution to the problem of growing hair. I wonder what those Russian cosmonauts who stayed on Mir for months at a time did with their hair. Did they just let it grow out or did they have methods for cutting it that kept hair from floating all over the place?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-04 01:14:40

What's a 'FlowBee'?
???

P.S. While I'm on the case, what does a 'blue bag' have to do with personal hygiene?

If these seem like stupid questions, please forgive my ignorance. But I really have no idea what these terms mean.
:0

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-04 01:19:27

A Flowbee is basically a trimmer attachment that hooks on to the end of a vaccume cleaner hose. I actually think they already use these types of things in the ISS, but I am not sure.

I have no idea about the blue bag, though.

RobS · 2002-10-04 08:36:24

Regarding washing, the picture in Mars Direct, p. 118, shows a shower stall, and the consumable requirements on page 92 includes wash water. In fact, wash water is 10 times the quantity of drinking water. So Mars Direct projects showers. They have gravity, after all. In zero gee, I think people use large, moist toilettes.

Regarding shaving and haircuts, presumably the air in the hab will be exited out the top level via the bathroom; otherwise one will have an odor problem. If that is the case, one could shave and cut hair in the bathroom and the air flow will keep it there. In zero gee there's a much bigger problem with floating whiskers anyway; gravity will prevent that problem.

I suppose Mars Direct must include a clothes washing system as well. The International Space Station does not; no one has invented a zero-gee washing machine. As a result, the ISS crews throw away their clothes after wearing them!

-- RobS

Palomar · 2002-10-04 16:15:24

Regarding washing, the picture in Mars Direct, p. 118, shows a shower stall, and the consumable requirements on page 92 includes wash water. In fact, wash water is 10 times the quantity of drinking water. So Mars Direct projects showers. They have gravity, after all. In zero gee, I think people use large, moist toilettes.
Regarding shaving and haircuts, presumably the air in the hab will be exited out the top level via the bathroom; otherwise one will have an odor problem. If that is the case, one could shave and cut hair in the bathroom and the air flow will keep it there. In zero gee there's a much bigger problem with floating whiskers anyway; gravity will prevent that problem.
I suppose Mars Direct must include a clothes washing system as well. The International Space Station does not; no one has invented a zero-gee washing machine. As a result, the ISS crews throw away their clothes after wearing them!
-- RobS

*Geez, I hadn't considered laundry! Maybe that's because I hate doing the laundry myself.

Chances are this has been discussed at some point in time here, but just how will water be recycled for the astronauts *during* their trip to and back from Mars (I understand that, on Mars, the equipment sent ahead of them will have fresh water ready, while they are on the planet itself)? I mean, these people will be using the ship's supply of water for *everything*...after 6 months or so, you'd presume the water is going to taste a tad bit stale at the very least, no matter how great the filters are or how often they are replaced.

It kind of makes my stomach weak to think of drinking water that's been recycled from...well...you know... BLAH ???

--Cindy

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-06 01:42:07

ecrasez_l_infame;

It kind of makes my stomach weak to think of drinking water that's been recycled from...well...you know... BLAH

You know, the water we drink here on Earth has been around for more than a few millenia. You've probably chugged down what was once in Julius Ceasar's urine.

Adrian · 2002-10-06 09:05:05

Ahem Anyway, I've seen a video of Russian cosmonauts having their hair cut and shaved on Mir, and yes, there was a vacuum cleaner present. When you consider that some cosmonauts have been up for several hundred days, you can be sure that they managed to cut their hair and avoided disaster. Here's an article about how they did it on the ISS - seems decidedly low-tech, with scissors and a vacuum.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2002-06-14 17:32:47

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#2 2002-06-14 18:01:15

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#3 2002-06-15 06:52:55

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#4 2002-06-15 08:37:20

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#5 2002-06-15 11:24:04

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#6 2002-06-15 20:35:21

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#7 2002-10-02 23:10:17

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#8 2002-10-03 12:37:09

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#9 2002-10-03 19:04:20

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#10 2002-10-04 01:14:40

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#11 2002-10-04 01:19:27

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#12 2002-10-04 08:36:24

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#13 2002-10-04 16:15:24

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#14 2002-10-06 01:42:07

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

#15 2002-10-06 09:05:05

Re: Toilet Paper - The blue-bag report

Board footer