New Mars Forums

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Large Brown Cloud

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15700]NASA scientists studying this thing

*...in the news again.  ???  Troubling. 

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15700]NASA scientists studying this thing

*...in the news again.  ???  Troubling. 

--Cindy

Suddenly "The day after tomorrow" does not seem that far away.

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Large Brown Cloud

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ … tml]Clouds and pollution

*I thought about the Brown Cloud issue again when I read this.  Meteorology is another interest of mine.

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Large Brown Cloud

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15700]NASA scientists studying this thing

*...in the news again.  ???  Troubling. 

--Cindy

Suddenly "The day after tomorrow" does not seem that far away.

Graeme

Nonsense, a little ozone isn't much of a greenhouse contributor... infact, humanity as a whole isn't much of a greenhouse contributor compared to nature.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

Nonsense, a little ozone isn't much of a greenhouse contributor... infact, humanity as a whole isn't much of a greenhouse contributor compared to nature.

I forgot some people take everything literally.

We should tell NASA to stop looking at things like this, because there's nothing humans can do to affect the environment - right?

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Large Brown Cloud

We should tell NASA to stop looking at things like this, because there's nothing humans can do to affect the environment - right?

Oh, we can certainly affect it.

It's just that there are a hell of alot of things that affect it more and are totally beyond our control.

---

Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

Oh, we can certainly affect it.

I spent a good while this year looking at data for climate and CO2 levels both from accurate recent data and more long term applied data. Man is a major problem in the climate equation, its just a pity the Kyoto treaty came up against so many objections.

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Large Brown Cloud

We can cause environmental damage left and right, poisoning the environment with toxins and such... but so far the evidence for humanity causing signifigant climate damage is weak at best, because there are so many other sources for climate change that are obviously much more influential.

Even the IPCC folks who helped write Kyoto, the "sky is falling and its all our fault!" people, using discredited research, can't say for sure that we're doing it.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

So we sit back and do nothing, until the evidence is hitting us in the face and suddenly its too late to do anything about it. Yes, the environment is heavily influenced by natural events, but man is sure not helping the issue. I don't think we'll see the sky falling down, I don't go in for knee jerk reactionary statements like that.

The IPCC still stood behind the Kyoto treatment however much bad press went before it.

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Large Brown Cloud

Even the IPCC folks who helped write Kyoto, the "sky is falling and its all our fault!" people, using discredited research, can't say for sure that we're doing it.

Precisely.

Climate change is caused overwhelmingly by natural factors, not people in industrialized countries driving too much. the Kyoto protocol is first, foremost and primarily about punishing the US economically for its success.

Climate change is natural for our planet, we're coming out of a minor ice age, of course temperatures have risen in the last century or so. Go back 200 years it was colder. Go back 600 it was warmer. It's not us.

---

Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

Climate change is caused overwhelmingly by natural factors, not people in industrialized countries driving too much. the Kyoto protocol is first, foremost and primarily about punishing the US economically for its success.

Its funny how many people saw the Kyoto treaty not about punishing the US, but about the environment, perhaps if the US had come up with the idea first it would have got through

Climate change is natural for our planet, we're coming out of a minor ice age, of course temperatures have risen in the last century or so. Go back 200 years it was colder. Go back 600 it was warmer. It's not us.

Some fluctuations are natural the past couple of hundred years have seen unnatural growth that most admit is caused by humans.

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Large Brown Cloud

Oh, we can certainly affect it.

I spent a good while this year looking at data for climate and CO2 levels both from accurate recent data and more long term applied data. Man is a major problem in the climate equation, its just a pity the Kyoto treaty came up against so many objections.

Graeme

No, not really. The whole concept of CO2 = global warming is really just a guess you know. CO2 itself is only capable of about 5% of the solar energy absortion change that global warming is blamed on, says the IPCC report itself.

It has also been this warm in the past, thousands of years ago, before there WAS an industrial humanity; the Dr. Mann's paper which claimed this is the "hottest year ever" is simply wrong, his methodolgy has been poked full of holes by his peers. We have just been through a solar maximum, yet human CO2 is still being blamed because of computer models which assume constant solar energy. Some ice corings from glaciers that predate industrial humanity also show increased CO2 concentrations. 5,000 year old glaciers in Chile have fossilized plants under them.

The list goes on... it is even a valid question if global warming causes CO2 increases, rather then vice versa. There is ample evidence to largely discredit signifigant human climate tampering, and that we are overdue for a very common and natural climate swing anyway.

And lastly, the people who were so gung-ho for Kyoto, I am convinced had alterior motives... They knew for a fact that their plan would not repair the climate much, and would have been economic suicide for America. Since productivity requires energy, and energy produces CO2, the only way America could comply with contemporary technology would be to reduce GDP by 25-33%, obviously fatal. All this while Europe would only be damaged or Russia largely untouched, and the second biggest CO2 contributors China and India get off scott free.

If Kyoto sticks and America continues to not enter into an economic suicide pact with the rest of the world, the EU will naturally bring trade sanctions against the US for having an "unfair" advantage by not being bound by Kyoto, and the anti-US WTO would make sure they stick. A slick deal really... the Kyoto people didn't care a rip about the climate, it was all a ploy to kick the legs out from under the capitalism-driven American economic juggernaught. And the armies of environmentalists are happy to go along, unwitting or otherwise.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Large Brown Cloud

This is getting too political for a science and technology thread - my fault I think, sorry. I won't keep arguing the case for the environment, some people either don't care about it or are convinced man has no influence over it, thats fine for them. I'm happy knowing that although man is affecting the environment, there is little I can really do to change that on a global scale, and I live on a hill side if the tide does suddenly start to rise    so I won't get my toes wet...

We know little about the environment/climate as modelling it is difficult, and therefore predicting what effect different scenarios would have upon it is difficult as well. Sticking our head in the sand does not help anyone however.

Graeme

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--