The New Europe - European Dream

BWhite · 2004-11-17 11:59:01

Why won't Europe follow us? Because they think they are beating us.

A few weeks ago I read Rivkin's new book, European Dream. Perhaps I even commented on it here. Anyway, while it offers uneven reading, Europe may actually be our biggest rival rather than the Islamicists.

And capital punishment is a symbolic issue that divides us from Europe.

A http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/1 … 1]DailyKos take on the Jeremy Rivkin book.

From Salon:

It's Chirac vs. Cheney, SUVs vs. minicars, and pommes frites vs. freedom fries in the new transatlantic culture war. But here's what you don't know: In the global conflict for moral and economic supremacy, Europe is winning.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 12:14:21

Why is Left Behind and the End Times theologies so popular in America?

Perhaps because of the belief that in 50 years humanity is a goner anyways. . .

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/1 … 73#173]One link

"Listen, kid," (I was 34) he sighed with the ultimate tone of bored condescension. "I'm gonna tell you how it is.
"We're the Haves, and they're the Have-nots. And they want what we got. And it's my job to keep them from getting it."
Glancing toward the mushroom cloud on the cover of my magazine, I asked "But what if that gets us all blown up?"
"We've only got another 50 years, max, anyway. My kids will at least get what I've got. After that, it's all gone anyway."

So much for settling Mars. . .

Gennaro · 2004-11-17 12:22:21

Ah, don't believe it...

This document is full of propaganda. I believe the issue of the death penalty is about as contested in Europe as it is in America, if you actually care to listen to what people think. That the elites are not allowed to dissent about denouncing it is a whole different matter entierly.

And why should banning it necessarily be a good thing? Why is "universalism" considered a good thing right out of hand? I don't think so. I think it's a profoundly false philosophy with fearful consequences, although the loud-speakers that are brainwashing the populace everyday from school age to the newspaper editorials are constantly telling me it's an integral part of "democracy". By the way, isn't universalism precisely what the regime behind Bush stands for?

It might be that Europe keeps the edge in some areas and that living standards are better in some respects, whatever remains of the welfare state, but don't worry, globalization, neo-liberal downsizing and cultural-demographical transformation will at least see to equalizing that.
:;):

Palomar · 2004-11-17 12:28:32

*So Europe is vastly superior to the U.S.A., culturally and morally and etc.?

What about their problems with immigrants? What about their native declining birth population? Those two issues alone portend major problems.

Europe is "winning"? That sounds a bit like counting chicks before they've hatched, don't you think?

Actually I'd be more worried about this if I were English (which side to pick)?

Us versus them again.

As for the "Left Behind" stuff, not every American buys into it.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-17 12:38:47

Us versus them again.
As for the "Left Behind" stuff, not every American buys into it.

And that cuts to the heart of the issue. In the American press Europe is often portrayed as this wonderfully progressive land of tolerance, universal healthcare and burying of old conflicts, everyone coming together in harmony with periodic breaks to scorn us Americans, ignorant warmongering prudes that we are. :;):

We all know that America is just a place full of people that hold a wide range of opinions. Somehow I get the nagging suspicion Europe is the same. Just based on this board, there are without question Europeans that I can relate to and agree with far more so than people that live down the street from me. Well, Canada is basically down the street from me, but I digress. All this "US vs. Europe" stuff is vastly overblown, we're closely tied in culture and history, we're in many respects the same people.

And we have plenty of socialists over here too.

Our respective cultural "elites" do not accurately represent the people. Let them chatter, time will tell.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 12:57:19

More heads in the sand. . .

???

= = =

READ MY POST AGAIN.

= = =

I didn't say they are winning, I said many in the EU think they are winning. That is why they won't follow our lead.

Folks, we are fighting a cultural civil war and a civilizational war against Islamo-fascism at the same time. Two front wars are usually a bad idea.

Maybe the USA and the EU need to be partners with equal respect given to each on calling the shots on how to fight the War on Terror. Or, we can fight more two front wars, and carry the majority of the burden and expense ourselves.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 13:00:28

1/6 of America believes Jesus will return in our lifetime.

How many of those people voted for Kerry? Maybe 2 or 3. Not percent, 2 or 3 people. :;):

That means between 25% and 30% of the Bush electoral base believes in Left Behind.

= = =

Is Europe always right? Of course not.

Is America right on 85% of the issues and the EU on 15%?

Or is it USA 90% and EU 10%? or

How about 60% and 40%

What do you guys think?

Palomar · 2004-11-17 13:02:51

we're closely tied in culture and history, we're in many respects the same people.

*I disagree with this point. Most of our immigrants are not giving us the same sorts of problems certain European nations in particular are facing, but the fact is many current U.S. immigrants don't come from Europe and so don't look back to Europe as a distant homeland of sorts. Latinos are the fastest-growing group and they of course look to Mexico, Puerto Rico and Cuba primarily. Nothing wrong with that, of course; just natural.

But there are changes coming to play in U.S. cultural dynamics. The gulf between Europe and the U.S. will continue to widen.

I've lived in an area with a large Latino population for nearly 13 years and they -don't- swoon over the latest import from France or "oohh and aaahh" over English rose patterned tea sets (unlike folks back home).

Again, this is just natural for them; understandable.

--Cindy

::EDIT::

READ MY POST AGAIN.
= = =
I didn't say they are winning, I said many in the EU think they are winning. That is why they won't follow our lead.

*Minor communication gap. I didn't mean to imply YOU said Europe is winning; I was simply referring to the quote you put in the quote box of your 1st post. Perhaps my response implied I thought it was YOU...sorry.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 13:09:15

we're closely tied in culture and history, we're in many respects the same people.
*I disagree with this point. Most of our immigrants are not giving us the same sorts of problems certain European nations in particular are facing, but the fact is many current U.S. immigrants don't come from Europe and so don't look back to Europe as a distant homeland of sorts. Latinos are the fastest-growing group and they of course look to Mexico, Puerto Rico and Cuba primarily. Nothing wrong with that, of course; just natural.
But there are changes coming to play in U.S. cultural dynamics. The gulf between Europe and the U.S. will continue to widen.
I've lived in an area with a large Latino population for nearly 13 years and they -don't- swoon over the latest import from France or "oohh and aaahh" over English rose patterned tea sets (unlike folks back home).
Again, this is just natural for them; understandable.
--Cindy
::EDIT::
READ MY POST AGAIN.
= = =
I didn't say they are winning, I said many in the EU think they are winning. That is why they won't follow our lead.
*Minor communication gap. I didn't mean to imply YOU said Europe is winning; I was simply referring to the quote you put in the quote box of your 1st post. Perhaps my response implied I thought it was YOU...sorry.

Cindy, I agree with this.

This is precisely why a Crusade (word choice deliberate) to reform Islam spearheaded by America is so very risky.

We go charging forward, and no one else follows, except Israel, Australia and a very shaken Britain.

= = =

USA and EU are on divergent paths, in no small part based on how our two cultures view God and how humans interact with God.

clark · 2004-11-17 13:09:34

I would kill for some good mexican food right about now. I-talians don't know squat about it.

I think all sides have it wrong- but then, that's just me.

Let the Euro's think whatever they want. Arrogant-self delusion is a staple of American belief (not to mention French), so what's the big deal?

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-17 13:10:07

Folks, we are fighting a cultural civil war and a civilizational war against Islamo-fascism at the same time. Two front wars are usually a bad idea.

We've been fighting a cultural civil war for decades, one could argue we've been fighting one since the Revolution. We're not a homogenized mass, neither is Europe. There is a cultural war in progress, but isn't confined to America and it isn't US vs. Europe. Americans and Europeans are finding themselves in the same fight, and there are no borders.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 13:12:46

Folks, we are fighting a cultural civil war and a civilizational war against Islamo-fascism at the same time. Two front wars are usually a bad idea.
We've been fighting a cultural civil war for decades, one could argue we've been fighting one since the Revolution. We're not a homogenized mass, neither is Europe. There is a cultural war in progress, but isn't confined to America and it isn't US vs. Europe. Americans and Europeans are finding themselves in the same fight, and there are no borders.

True.

Yet for the leaders of the American nation-state to choose sides in that larger cultural war will harm the interest of that nation-state. The American government needs to keep a foot in every camp and not chose sides.

Or better still find ways for the western cultural warriors (gay rights, abortion, women's rights, prayer in school) to co-exist and cooperate on issues like fighting Islamo-fascism.

BWhite · 2004-11-17 13:15:20

I would kill for some good mexican food right about now. I-talians don't know squat about it.
I think all sides have it wrong- but then, that's just me.
Let the Euro's think whatever they want. Arrogant-self delusion is a staple of American belief (not to mention French), so what's the big deal?

Again, true.

But be sanguine, clark, in the end the poets always win. They always do.

Mexican? Uh oh, its lunch time!

clark · 2004-11-17 13:21:23

hehe...

There is not a cultrual divide, there is divide in perception. :;):

USA, led by the stalwart reformed coke head is of the opinion that the barbarians are at the gate. So our fearless leader (and his rather timid co-leader who goes missing to unknown locations with a pace maker on hand) is pointing to all these bad people who threaten our very exsistence.

EU, led by the haughty politcal opportunist of a French persussaion (with a German contingent marching in step behind...ain't that a switch!) looks over the gate, and says, "Yes, many bad people. Very bad people." Shrugs, then replies, "can't we sell them some nuclear reactors?"

China and Russia just lay low, and wait for their day in the sun.

Our perception may be correct, but the value of it has been badly undermined by a failure to discover the very basis for our ill-advised action. Is it any wonder we're getting a big, "I told you," from the rest of the world?

Yet the USA clings to the perception that the ver bad people are massing- and you know what, we're starting to be right. We've created the conditions by which a small ember has grown to a large fire.

We'll never get anywhere clinging to the ideal that we should tell the rest of the world how to man the bucket brigade. The way they look at it, out decisions have led to the fire in the first place.

So, to continue to ramble, we will not only have to fight this on our own, we will also provide the neccessarfy bond by which an opposition (the greatest glue ever) is used to consolidate an actual EU identity.

America became America with an enemy. We the other. It's how yopu form an identity.

So in that vein, se le ve. [shrug]

BWhite · 2004-11-17 13:44:58

hehe...

Indeed

So, to continue to ramble, we will not only have to fight this on our own, we will also provide the neccessarfy bond by which an opposition (the greatest glue ever) is used to consolidate an actual EU identity.
America became America with an enemy. We the other. It's how yopu form an identity.
So in that vein, se le ve. (shrug)

And of course, we cannot change political leadership until this nebulous war is won, in say 80 years. . . ???

clark · 2004-11-17 13:53:13

And of course, we cannot change political leadership until this nebulous war is won, in say 80 years. . .

Well, we could do it the Bush way, and change politcal leadership in any country that might harbor WMD's, and might give them (or allow them to fall into) to terroists.

Lemme see, France, Russia, China, Britian, India, Pakistan, Isreal... more like 200 years.

War on Drugs... War on poverty... War on Illiteracy... War on Terror... War on Crime... why don't we fight a war against people with guns? Oh wait, NRA is a constituency.

Never mind.

Gennaro · 2004-11-17 14:56:53

Part of the problem here is that widely unrelated issues are being dealt with as aspects of the same.
I can concede as much as that a successful integration of Europe will entail the formation of an independent foreign policy in which America will not "take a lead". But why would you expect anything else? We are not your slaves who need you to lead the way, in fact we were your parent.

When it comes to the present dissanance however, you must understand that this is simply because the European public are reacting to all the crazy moves that have been taken since 9/11. It has nothing to do with Europe believing itself to be "beating" you and therefore can dump America in some way to exemply that shift. We are much too timid for that. Least of all do Europeans have any particular confidence in its own present elite and federal power structure. It may happen anyway that a line will be drawn across the Atlantic of course, but it is not in some willful and sinister way sought after. Regime change in Washington would clear out most of our difficulties. (Yes, that is easier said than done, since not even Kerry probably would have had enough room to maneuver, given all the guarantees he had to look after, if that ever was his intention.)

It is true we do not have the cultural and anachronistic anomaly that the Evangelicals represent, in fact we shipped them all over to you. :;): Europe has changed a lot since then while these Bible thumpers that so readily can be exploited for widely differing goals obviously have not. Yet, we have our own problems of PC power structures and cognitive dissonance. I'm very doubtful at the moment that the European superpower to be will turn out very well, if at all. Those in power presently are globalists and oldtimers of the passive Cold War era, and as long as they prevail, Europe will not in my opinion achieve a voice of its own. To be truthful, this whole unification business wasn't even our idea. Basically, we are all tied up in the same net, and as we rattle the strings in antagonistical swings, the powers that are might well be just sitting back smirking at the whole spectacle.

Believe it or not, my main enemy is my own government, not the cowboy in the White House on the other side of the ocean, although I think it's deeply deplorable that the Unites States so frivoulously plays with the fate of the world, maiming all those people in the process, because of ignorance or whatever, not to say the fate of our entire culture. What will happen the day you wake up and discover you have been fooled from the start, that the emperor never had any clothes?

Gawd, am I in a dramatic mood today...

BWhite · 2004-11-17 15:31:23

Gennaro, surely you must realize that the world revolves around the US of A.

We are the center of everything!

= = =

More seriously, I find little to argue with in your coments.

I agree that Europe will not coalesce into a powerful unified entity unless you perceive a threat to your cultural uniqueness coming from the United States.

Therefore, for the US to offer that threat is profoundly foolish, from a selfish US-ian point of view.

Gennaro · 2004-11-17 16:23:15

Therefore, for the US to offer that threat is profoundly foolish, from a selfish US-ian point of view.

Yeah, maybe you shouldn't hand it to us on a plate like the way you do. Eaurasia is at war with Oceania. Eurasia has always been at war with Oceania.

Trebuchet · 2004-11-17 17:35:08

The EU does believe it to be 'the wave of the future'; however, Europe is so economically/demographically screwed that i can only call this a hallucination. From my perspective, it is not Washington but Brussels that is the center of the surreal, generating phone-book sized constitutions, having thousands of elderly people die in national heat waves, having the vapors over genetically modified foods, and seeming to take joy in reflexively opposing the US on any given issue.

I have other thoughts on the issue, but I've basically decided that the best course is to simply let Europe twist in the wind until it wants to get serious again. As far as I'm concerned, NATO is almost dead, certainly on ice, and shared cultural roots be damned.

Euler · 2004-11-17 17:46:33

I agree that Europe will not coalesce into a powerful unified entity unless you perceive a threat to your cultural uniqueness coming from the United States.
Therefore, for the US to offer that threat is profoundly foolish, from a selfish US-ian point of view.

Having Europe coalesce into a powerful unified entity is not necessarily a bad thing for the US. If that powerful unified entity sides with the US most of the time, then it could be a very good thing for the US.

Grypd · 2004-11-17 19:52:32

The EU does believe it to be 'the wave of the future'; however, Europe is so economically/demographically screwed that i can only call this a hallucination. From my perspective, it is not Washington but Brussels that is the center of the surreal, generating phone-book sized constitutions, having thousands of elderly people die in national heat waves, having the vapors over genetically modified foods, and seeming to take joy in reflexively opposing the US on any given issue.
I have other thoughts on the issue, but I've basically decided that the best course is to simply let Europe twist in the wind until it wants to get serious again. As far as I'm concerned, NATO is almost dead, certainly on ice, and shared cultural roots be damned.

The problem with that statement is that it is not only the EU that is having problems with the US. The latest problem is going to be a trade war where sanctions will be imposed between the US and the EU but also Japan, India and South Korea will impose sanctions on the US. Why, in 2002 the US was taken to court by these countries over an item of law in the US called the Byrd amendment. The US lost the case and the world trade organisation allowed these countries to use sanctions unless the US repeals the law. So the amendment still stands and US exports of corn, heavy industry and textiles will struggle. And tit for tat will happen again.

It is this sort of actions that alienate the other countries in the world and causes the feeling in the US that the world is against them and in the rest of the world that the US is a bully and a threat to peaceful relations.

The world needs a powerful USA but it must realise that by its own actions it will force the likes of Europe to act closer together for mutual interest and cause envy and possibly fear in the rest. Can Europe become as great or greater a power as the US, the answer is yes. Is this a bad thing No, as long as the two new superpowers can work together. There will allways be arquements but as long as they can be contained and dont lead to a cold war situation then its ok. The EU and US are not too far apart really politically they both will be democracies.

DonPanic · 2004-11-18 02:50:09

LO

The EU does believe it to be 'the wave of the future'; however, Europe is so economically/demographically screwed that i can only call this a hallucination. From my perspective, it is not Washington but Brussels that is the center of the surreal, generating phone-book sized constitutions, having thousands of elderly people die in national heat waves, having the vapors over genetically modified foods, and seeming to take joy in reflexively opposing the US on any given issue.
I have other thoughts on the issue, but I've basically decided that the best course is to simply let Europe twist in the wind until it wants to get serious again. As far as I'm concerned, NATO is almost dead, certainly on ice, and shared cultural roots be damned.

Looks like very short sighted and superficial thoughts.
Yes, we had thousands of old people which died in an historical heat wave as never reccorded since meteo institutions were created, when most of doctors were in holidays and hospitals with half the usual staff, this is an accident as well as USA southern states struck by 3 consecutive hurricanes, do you want to be judged on where people have a longuest life, USA or France ?
Our agriculture turns slowly to biological production, though our cereal production has the highest world productivity per acre, and we go back to species variety instead of standardisation, that's in our plates, mind your own obese maker ones.
I think you would be surprised by the number of highspeed connexions in here, though we always complain to be late, mine is only 3300 kb/s. while France Telecom is starting 10000 kb/s supply in cities in order to set web TV.
Economicly screwed ? In France, the legal working rate is 35 hours a week, nevertheless, a french worker productivity is 113% that of an american one per hour, and 95% of jap workers productivity while the Japs work 50 hours a week, even Jap managers of settled in France jap factories are impressed by that. And french managers try to set people to go back to 39 hours working time a week.
In Germany, GM and Ford managers angrily ask to german workers to raise to the french car makers productivity and benefit rates.
Brussel phonebook size constitution is mainly because the variety of languages and of national diversity, that's close to the american complexity of laws, federal, states and local laws.
The reason why we are quite unsensible to Trebuchet-like french bashing is that we are violently critic at ourselves

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-11-18 04:43:05

Gennaro, surely you must realize that the world revolves around the US of A.

We are the center of everything!

= = =

More seriously, I find little to argue with in your coments.

I agree that Europe will not coalesce into a powerful unified entity unless you perceive a threat to your cultural uniqueness coming from the United States.

Therefore, for the US to offer that threat is profoundly foolish, from a selfish US-ian point of view.

yes there is much change happening across the globe

The Business weekly made a new report. The United States could attack Europe's planned network of global positioning satellites if it was used by a hostile power such as China. The paper reported a disagreement between EU and US officials over Galileo at a London conference which led to the threat to blow up the future satellites.

does this sound lika a new Star wars or Space wars ?

As some of you know there is a lot of international and jointed efforts in space. The Cassini-Huygens mission was a joint venture between the Europeans and the USA, with NASA launching the Cassini craft and the Eu giving 1 billion dollars to the mission. Also the Russians and Americans have worked closely on the Space Station mission of the past, and now the Chinese National Space Agency (CNSA) and ESA have worked together on the China-ESA Double Star project they were designed and lauch these spacecraft to study the Earth’s magnetosphere, in concert with ESA’s four spacecraft Cluster mission. The Double Star spacecraft are known as TC-1 and TC-2, or translating to English, as Explorer-1 and Explorer-2.

China last month became a partner in the Galileo program, which could help provide services such as communications for the 2008 Beijing Olympics but also has applications for strategic military use. According to a leaked US Air Force document written in August and obtained by The Business, Peter Teets, under-secretary of the US Air Force wrote: "What will we do 10 years from now when American lives are put at risk because an adversary chooses to leverage the global positioning system of perhaps the Galileo constellation to attack American forces with precision?" The paper also reported a disagreement between EU and US officials this month over Galileo at a London conference which led to the threat to blow up the future satellites. US officials have voiced fears that the rival system, which has also brought on board Russia and Israel in addition to China, could compromise US and Nato military operations which rely on GPS for navigation and combatant location and might also interfere with a classified Pentagon positioning system known as M-Code.

At one point, Washington suggested that Galileo was an unnecessary rival to GPS that merely duplicated the US system.

Analysts said the US threat to Galileo's future system exposed the true military value of the global navigation systems.

Previously, officials touted only the commercial benefit of Galileo, which is expected to tap into a burgeoning market for satellite positioning systems that doubled from 10 billion euros in 2002 to €20-billion in 2003. Brussels has also argued Galileo will create 150,000 new jobs across the European bloc.

The Business warned in an editorial that technological choices - Galileo versus GPS - now would fuel more international political division. 'They made it clear that they would attempt what they called reversible action'. It warned that Britain, Washington's staunchest ally in the Iraq war, would once again find itself trapped between the two camps - and that as a result "the Anglo-American alliance is quietly splitting behind the scenes". China Tuesday slammed as "absurd" the idea that its satellite cooperation with Europe could have military uses.

As for reports that this plan will be devoted to military use, I think this kind of accusation is quite absurd and ridiculous," foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue told a regular briefing. Galileo, a constellation of 30 satellites and ground stations due to go into operation in 2008, is being launched by the European Union and the European Space Agency to tap into a growing market of global satellite positioning.

China last month became a partner in the Galileo program, which could help provide services such as communications for the 2008 Beijing Olympics but also has applications for strategic military use.Zhang was asked to comment on a report in British newspaper The Business Weekly on Sunday that the United States could attack the planned network if it was used by a hostile power such as China.

Space Wars ??

What is it they say a picture says a thousand words? We have already seen the big spending cuts planned for NASA, and the rise of China as a space power with the Chinese having large industrial and economic growth. The Europeans also seek to re-align themselves expanding trade, knocking down borders and a move to become an Economic superpower to rival the US.

Already there are many investing in Europe and some see the EUs currency the Euro as a strong alternative to the unsteady dollar. Even though places luxembourg and Norway don't have major populations. 1/2 a million and 4.5 million it doesn't mean that these guys aren't players on the economic stage. Just because they aren't overcrowed nations with millions of old folks doesn't mean they are not important. Have you failed to notice since the introduction of the Euro, many European nations have grown rapidly, the Bush economy started to slum in 2001 around the time the euro arrived. Some in the USA have been watching the Europeans change their policy with anxiety, a European rulling and support from the WTO that prevented US automakers from going about thier business, it cost the steal industry millions and sent US automobile workers back on the welfare Q. Sometimes Bush likes to talk tuff but Who else apart from these Euros have been able to bark orders to the USA to tell the Americans what economic laws and automobile policies that they can and cannot make? Bush likes to talk tuff but when it come to these guys he backs down very quickly and it could mean the end of the US steel industry, no more jobs producing chemical malleable alloys in the USA....Where the hell have all the American jobs gone !? The US should watch out for Europe as it is not as loud as other nations but its is growing quickly and quietly , they r currently forming a new army know as the Euro rapid reaction force a kind of black ops type group.

the Russian President Vladimir Putin served notice that Russia intended to remain a major nuclear power by deploying a new weapon in the coming years....a new weapon that other states lack and are unlikely to develop in the near future. Europe has alos taken down most of its borders, it no longer is divided and has a European reaction army being built. The Euro zone has become an area of strong internal trade and the EU has began to rival the US as an economic superpower, with many now investing with the Euro rather than an unstable dollar. Some wonder if the US political moves have pushed some partners further away and maybe the EU in space closer to Russia and China. Maybe t already has. Imagine its 1974 not 2004 and Russia is planning to launch spacecraft from a FRENCH facility in South America and help the South Koreans build launch facilities. The Chinese are staring to learn this political game, that's why they want a part of the EU new network in space, the Galileo satelite system, that is why they have been calling for more international partnerships in psace and commercial launches and that is why they went for an ESA-China scientific collaboration in the Double star project. There is much to be learned in space, and there is much political and scientific benefit outside of space

It's often said that fast-growing China is the 'next superpower'. Yet recent articles - and a World Economic Forum poll of up-and-coming global leaders - identify Europe as possibly the dominant economic power of the next decade.

The Americans work on the job, while the Europeans work at their leisure. Another reason sometimes given for the higher quantifiable material prosperity of the USA is that the American works more. According to this hypothesis, poor development in Europe is connected, not so much with bad economics as with Europeans themselves opting to work less. Viewed in this light, Europe’s lower level of material prosperity results from its own choice to have more leisure. In order for the differences in work input to pose a real problem for comparisons of per capita GDP between the USA and Europe, at least two conditions have to be met. Is Europe and the Euro working to its fullest?
WOON WUI TEK unearths five Euro-boosting arguments

FOR all its faults - such as strict labour rules and high taxes - no-one disputes Europe's vast, pent-up potential.
The American economy grew explosively in the 1990s, thanks to the IT revolution. Now, many economists predict that Europe is ready for it, too.
True, overspending and hype burnt billions in the so-called Net-bomb disaster, but Europe can fully exploit IT while learning from US' mistakes.
Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland may grow up to five per cent each year for a decade - thus, the phrase 'European Tigers'.
Their inclusion will be a fillip for the EU as a whole.
'A tiger state does not necessarily mean that everything is in order; that was certainly not the case in Asia either,' Mr Peter Cornelius, director of the competitiveness program at the World Economic Forum, told Newsweek.
...state-absorption the way Europe might gain on the US ?
America has taken an economic beating lately in the stock market and currency.
Questions:
Is America losing it's Economic Superpower status?
Is this temporary?
some believe that Europe is a threat to the American finance economy,
some were worried about the idea if the 25 European countries are united.

Europe and the Euro by 2020-2030 it will have doubled in population and incorperated most of the old Warsaw Pact and will stretch from Iceland to the Pacific it will match China and India for population and oustrip them combined for resources. But will it have solved it's unity . problems? the EU would have to expand a lot to rival China/India's population. All of Europe is just short of 700 million.
Worlds Apart on the Vision Thing
Americans are used to thinking of their country as
the most successful on Earth. That's no longer the
case: The European Union has grown to become the third-largest governing institution in the world.
Though its land mass is half the size of the
continental United States, its $10.5-trillion (U.S.) gross domestic product now eclipses the U.S. GDP,
making it the world's largest economy. The EU is
already the world's leading exporter and largest internal trading market. Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are
European; only 50 are U.S. companies.

When it comes to wealth distribution -- a crucial
measure of a country's ability to deliver on the
promise of prosperity -- the United States ranks
24th among the industrial nations. All 18 of the
most developed European countries have less income inequality between rich and poor. There are now more poor people living in America than in the 16 European nations for which data
are available.Europeans often say Americans "live to work," while
they "work to live." The average paid vacation time in Europe is now six weeks a year. By contrast, Americans, on the average, receive only two weeks. When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life,

Europe seeks to unite financially not only so it can act as a fiscal countermeasure to the United States, but also as a military one. It is building the most modern and dynamic military in world history. Small, rapid units capable of moving into the theater of war quickly and quietly and at little cost, an independant GPS system (soon to be operational) and a powerful nuclear deterrant (operational).BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - The European Union declared Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) guilty of abusing its "near monopoly" with Windows to foil competitors in other markets and hit the software giant with a record $613 million fine Wednesday.

The EU's antitrust authority said that "because the illegal behavior is still ongoing," it was also demanding changes in the way Microsoft operates in Europe, with the aim of improving competition globally. Those sanctions go well beyond the 2001 U.S. antitrust settlement.

At the heart of the case, as it was in the US case, was the fact that Microsoft imbeds features into the operating system. The big one for the EU is Windows Media Player. The big one in the US case was Internet Explorer.

The subject for debate is based on this statement:

QUOTE :
Microsoft was also found guilty of monopolistic behavior in the U.S. case, but the EU order strikes deeper by aiming at the heart of Microsoft's business strategy - regularly adding new features to Windows to help sell upgrades.
The Redmond, Wash.-based company argues such "bundling" benefits consumers. But rivals call it unfair competition, given that Windows runs more than 90 percent of personal computers worldwide.So the EU is picking on the poor helpless MS company? Does that ring true to you? If the mobs of lawyers that MS employs could not convince a judge of thier side, I have to believe that the judge was correct in his ruling.

EU Enlargement: Good for the US?
Russia also seeks to be a superpower, but has little ability to grow at the rapid rate of China or the EU. Some have suggested that the Russians will operate in concert with the EU when it comes to regional military matters, and will most likely happen, as it has in the past.
The European Commission has recommended opening talks on the admission of Turkey to the EU - but Ankara must meet stiff conditions, EU officials say.

Commission officials are reporting on the progress Turkey has already made, along with Bulgaria and Romania.
The final decision on Turkey rests with the leaders of all 25 EU member states in December - with accession years off.
The Commission's recommendation is a milestone in an increasingly impassioned debate.
The decision was reached by a "large consensus" among commissioners, one EU official said, but no vote was taken.
The EU see
ks to make uniform the types of social policies that have proven to be effective in some of the more progressive states in northern Europe (switzerland, finland, sweden, etc.). Zero unemployment, miniscule crime rate and universal healthcare, education and transportation are some of the nice things you get when your populace is willing to pay taxes at the rate of %40+ of their income.

The idea of the EU is that if you have a number of states which all have educated, healthy and employed citizens, the economies will grow at a less volatile and overall increased rate.
This reasoning is accurate.
In fact, the United States is the only G8 country to not have policies ensure the wellbeing of their citizens

It is no secret that many European leaders want the EU to develop into a counter-balance to US economic and political power in the world.

Views vary widely in Washington as to whether enlargement will help or hinder the EU in achieving this goal, and whether this is a positive or negative development for the US. The conventional wisdom in Washington is that enlargement will make the EU more unwieldy and prevent it from becoming a strategic counter-balance to the US, said Mr Kupchan.

Mr Tupy said that some in Washington think the US should try to remain the world's lone superpower. However, his view is that the US does not have the power or resources to maintain a "uni-polar world". "If Europe grows to be another pole in the world and also assumes some of the responsibilities, like dealing with issues at its periphery, we think that is a good thing," he said.

And with the new member states being friendlier towards the US, he sees less of a chance of Europe developing into anti-American power. Mr Kupchan believes that although the new additions will make the EU more unwieldy, it will also force forward reforms to give union a more unitary and centralised character.

And despite the more pro-American bent of the new members' governments, he said: "I think that the idea that the new members will make the EU more atlanticist are overstated." The centre of gravity in the EU will remain in Brussels, Berlin, London and Paris, he added.

...
With the recent enlargement of the EU, the union is now a 450 million people political and economical entity. If the EU progress the right way, and in the next 10 years swallows up all of Europe, do you think that it will become the new superpower in the world, or will it just counterbalance the US equally in magnitude, or will the US still be the sole superpower?

Personally, if the EU takes the right path and becomes trule a unified Europe, I would like to see it guide the world into it's own vision and see what would happen.
Superpower of what? Economic –yes! Military? Errrr… is it necessary?

I am not familiar with the political scene in Europe AT ALL, but I always thought the aim of forming a European Union led by the French and Germans was to use trade and interactions between civilians to break down national barriers in order to maintain peace among neighboring countries.

At first England hesitated to hop in partly because in the 90s the English economies (U.S., Canada, Australia and England) experienced the most growths among developed countries. I remembered I had read somewhere that the economy of German or France alone was much smaller than Japan’s. I think it’s smart for them to recognize the power of collectivism.

Asian Union? Maybe in the next millennium…

It is very noble for the Europeans to come up with such a concept as the European Union. Asian countries… errr… how long did it take them to adopt a parliamentary system? I don’t know much about history, but it seemed that these countries were forced to take up a constitutional system or something. Why couldn’t they think of that earlier? Maybe they thought it was an honor to be the servant of a lord or an emperor?

Countries like these don’t have major problems copying the science and technology of advanced democratic countries. But to copy the political philosophy of the E.U.? It involves a lot of thinking and analyzing… and an open mind. Liberal thinking under the educational system in East Asia is not emphasized as much as in Europe, is it?

Hmmm… I think it is easier to teach people Calculus, Chemistry, and Biology than to teach people how to think, although several Asian countries’ governments are pretty good at teaching their people to hate their neighbors. Or maybe they already hate one anther? Then it will be such a challenge for their governments to teach them how to love their neighbors. lol

I would say the E.U does have the prospects.

But their not a national union yet, one nation, thus they will never agree to a "full extent" on economic, military, or foreign policy issues as seen by Iraq, atleast well into the forseeable future. You can't just say the E.U has this many soldiers and what not, when you have 25 different nations, with different priorities and capabilities for their own, while the U.S. and say China are one single identity. Their is cultural, linguistic, historic, and even current differences in economic, military, and foreign policy issues as said, besides nations with differing levels of acceptance towards to just how far the E.U. should transverse.

quote:

The European Union wasn't meant to heal the sick; it was designed to create wealth. Founded in 1951 as a trade alliance, the EU has grown cautiously, from a cozy group of six at the beginning to 15 member states in 1995, all of them in Western Europe. By integrating their economies and lowering tariffs, these countries created a common market for goods and services, achieving unprecedented levels of prosperity. They also raised the standard of living in poorer EU regions through development grants and subsidies, along with the demand for resources and cheap labor. Today Europe Inc., headquartered in Brussels, is poised to become a global behemoth—a market of 455 million people with a combined GDP of 10 trillion dollars, making it a rival to the United States as a political and economic superpower.

The EU are:
No score for this post August 28 2004, 11:20 AM

The largest economically (in potential the largest trade market in the world) but, there are political differences between nations, the UK/USA "bridge" is bugging the will of some EU leaders to get a more independent political approach and the all of the EU armed forces is not united at 100%.
I've been hearing talk from both sides of the Atlantic that vary, some saying it will be the next superpower, others saying that it's too diverse to work good, some some it will collapse soon, and even some saying it will be the "Fourth Reich"

European Commission President Romano Prodi also produced a plan for Europe's future, largely geared toward increasing the non-elected Commission's powers. Prodi proposed a direct EU-wide tax and that the economic government be delegated to the Commission, along with the European Central Bank.

The aim of the single market is to create an economic superpower able to compete with the US and Japan. It is intended to remove national differences by standardising rules on tax, health and safety, financial institutions and so on.

Like the Empires of the past the Roman, the Chinese dynasty, the Greek is the , Hitler's empire , Napoleon from Frace EU - Another Empire on the way to being built or is it another thing, some don't really know what to say ?

Gennaro · 2004-11-20 07:04:13

Zero unemployment, miniscule crime rate and universal healthcare, education and transportation are some of the nice things you get when your populace is willing to pay taxes at the rate of %40+ of their income.

This isn't exactly true. According to figures I've seen, Sweden has a higher rate of violent crimes per capita than New York City, which is about the same population size. Regrettably.

You could probably call the EU an empire if it works out, but built on voluntary basis, not subjection. I think that for it to function well you need a combination of centralized power in Brussels, controlling all issues that are of continental importance while leaving the rest to national home rule. Europe today is a little bit of the opposite. A rather weak power structure with too many cooks, often pursuing irrational policies, trying to control everything.

Then there is economic policy. I am of the opinion that a given power area needs to base its economical development on the home market, which in turn requires protectionism and an emphasis on relative autarchy. That's the way the US became an economic superpower. The new Europe will cover the entire spectrum of resources needed to establish a similar autarchy and homemarket-driven development. Yes, I guess that's somewhat fourth reichish, if the expression is allowed. However, the political elite (and even their leftist radical children) tend to be free-trade advocates and open border globalists. Not very promising in my opinion, although I still think, and sincerely hope, that Europa has the potential to become a very major player.

The United States could attack Europe's planned network of global positioning satellites if it was used by a hostile power such as China. The paper reported a disagreement between EU and US officials over Galileo at a London conference which led to the threat to blow up the future satellites.

There seems to be a continual attitude problem in the United States, which reveals itself in passages like this. It can use its satellites for military purposes and does so on a regular basis, yes? Then it's rather imprudent not to expect and accept that everyone else will do the same.

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