A metaphor for the War on Terror - Any doctors here?

BWhite · 2004-11-01 22:27:56

A brief metaphor or analogy concerning why Bush is wrong for winning the War on Terror:

The elderly mother-in-law of friend of mine was in the hospital. Doctors thought she had asthma so they gave her steroids to fight the asthma.

Turns out she actually had a flare up of tuberculosis encapsulated since childhood and the steroids were like throwing gasoline on a smoldering match. The TB flared out of control and killed her very quickly.

http://www.juancole.com/2004_11_01_juan … 65580]Juan Cole says pretty much the same thing in calm nuanced academic terms.

I am screaming stop injecting steroids into Iraq and the Middle East. al Qaeda is more like TB than asthma and all people on the Right will do is accuse me and others of being weak on terror. No one will discuss the issue rationally and instead attack our patriotism.

Folks that makes me ANGRY!

= = =

Follow Cobra's advice, follow Shaun Barrett's advice and in four more years we will be SCREWED.

Just like those doctors who told my friend's wife "Stay the course the asthma will respond soon. Trust me, I am a doctor."

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 04:56:10

Follow Cobra's advice, follow Shaun Barrett's advice and in four more years we will be SCREWED.

One big problem with your line of reasoning here, Bill. We'll have four more years of screwed regardless, unless something truly dramatic happens. Barring unforeseen events, Bush will do what he's been doing. Kerry has repeatedly implied he'll do essentially the same thing. Only "smarter". There's an outside chance he'll just up and leave, in which case we're also screwed.

We're rapidly approaching a point where it's either "go Roman" or... "thousand points of light"

clark · 2004-11-02 06:05:11

I am reminded of a Simpson episode where Homer becomes Trash Czar of the city. He replaces the effective commissioner by making a lot of silly promises and denouncing the trash commissioner, then when elected, squanders the sanitation budget inside a month, so is then forced to import garbage from other areas to pay the bills.

In the end, the town tries to reinstate the old commissioner to solve the towns trash problem and budget woes. To which he replies, “Sorry, you’re all screwed.” and walks off.

The town is thus forced to institute plan B, which is to move five miles up the road. Maybe Mars can be plan B.

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 06:26:04

The town is thus forced to institute plan B, which is to move five miles up the road. Maybe Mars can be plan B.

This is a switch, a political discussion that veers into Mars.

A vigourous colonization program would significantly alter the equation over the long-term. Those that go will own the future, those that can't will be marginalized. Let the fundies have their desert for awhile, while we work on a much more promising field.

Then come back and take the old neighborhood after the tenants burn it down.

clark · 2004-11-02 06:29:09

Election day should be like Christmas, good will to all.

But only for a day... :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 06:32:52

Election carolers? ???

clark · 2004-11-02 06:39:49

They call them lawyers.

I wish you a merry voting
I wish you a merry voting
I wish you a merry voting
And a happy four years!

clark · 2004-11-02 06:55:08

I saw Mommy voting Democrat
In the voting booth last night
She didn’t see me creep
Through the curtains to have a peep
She thought I was outside
Playing in the discarded ballot heap
Then, I saw Mommy choose Democrat
Punching out their chad so white
Oh, What a fight it would have been
If Daddy had only seen
Mommy voting Democrat last night

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 07:01:55

:laugh:

It's funny, yet somehow dreadful.

In other news, rain in Michigan is expected to be heavier in Democrat regions of the state. Damn Karl Rove.

BWhite · 2004-11-02 07:30:08

Follow Cobra's advice, follow Shaun Barrett's advice and in four more years we will be SCREWED.
One big problem with your line of reasoning here, Bill. We'll have four more years of screwed regardless, unless something truly dramatic happens. Barring unforeseen events, Bush will do what he's been doing. Kerry has repeatedly implied he'll do essentially the same thing. Only "smarter". There's an outside chance he'll just up and leave, in which case we're also screwed.
We're rapidly approaching a point where it's either "go Roman" or... "thousand points of light"

The analogy goes beyond BC v KE 04.

The real tragedy of the past four years is that Bush and bin Laden has manuevered the USA into the same relation with most of Islam that Israel has with the Palestinians.

Same emotional dynamics, same rhetoric, same losing end-game where fanatical martyrs brigades (costing thousands or millions) wage a war of attrition where we are spending billions and billions in response. Bottom line, the strategy bin Laden is using against the USA is the same strategy being used against Israel.

Create a war of attrition that cannot be decisively won by military means and then make babies faster than the other side. Do you remember von Braun's crude comment about "unskilled labor" ?

Here is the question about steroids versus antibiotics - - UNLESS we close the schools and GIVE a billion Muslim children real hope for a better life (not a FAUX News America feel good TV spot) the waves of suicide bombers will never end.

Parents in the West Bank are aghast and horrified that their children have become suicide bombers against Israel. When the terror culture has supplanted the influence of parents, how will our LAME Arabic language media have any influence at all.

But no, we must STAY THE COURSE! and BE STRONG!

and keep feeding the TB patient steroids. Because that's what God told us to do.

= = =

Closing the terror schools, closing the mosques where hate is preached is the only solution but to do that successfully, we will need to spend trillions (with a "t" not a "b" or an "m") to replace the terror schools with something positive.

In the meantime, BUSH inflames the hate, injecting the TB patient with more and more steroids.

clark · 2004-11-02 07:33:13

Perhaps we could close the terror schools, give them school vouchers, and let the parents decide if they want their children to learn creationism and abstienance education. Make it part of that faith based inititive I hear so much about.

BWhite · 2004-11-02 07:47:16

Perhaps we could close the terror schools, give them school vouchers, and let the parents decide if they want their children to learn creationism and abstienance education. Make it part of that faith based inititive I hear so much about.

Thanks. . .

And peace to all NewMarsians, regardless of politics.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-11-02 07:59:31

I have a nasty suspicion that to some extent we're "screwed" anyway, to use Bill's colourful colloquialism! Regardless of Iraq or anything else, the West is marked for continued death and disruption by Islamic extremists. Why .. because we're too rich, too greedy, too arrogant, or too technologically advanced? No. Because we're infidels.

Did it start with Bush Jnr.? No.
Did it start with Bush Snr.? No.
Did it start with Clinton? No.
Did it start with Reagan? No.

If it's possible to pin down a moment in history when aggressive Islamic religious elements first made their presence felt, you might choose 1979, when meek and mild Jimmy carter was (Democrat) President of the U.S.A. Although the Shah had long since fled the country in January of the same year, angry young Islamic revolutionaries overran the U.S. embassy in Tehran on November 4th and took more than 60 Americans hostage for 444 days.
In fact there had been confrontations between authorities and Iranian Islamic clergy as early as 1963, on Kennedy's watch (another Democrat, incidentally); and this despite a prolonged period of unprecedented stability and prosperity, albeit under American influence.

This all took place before the Mujaheddin's American-backed struggle against the Soviets, before the evil Bush family came to power, before Rumsfeld shook hands with Saddam, before Cheney had a chance to aggravate the Arabs. All was not peace and light even long before the Left's latter-day anti-heroes graced the stage!

This clash between the secular West and extreme Islam has been coming for a long time. According to OBL, it all started when the Moors were driven from Spain, hundreds of years ago!
We're the enemy, we're infidels, we must be converted or slain and Pan-Islamic Superstates must be established across the Middle East and South-East Asia, present-day borders notwithstanding. U.N. negotiations won't stop them, E.U. negotiations won't stop them, and being careful not to offend Islam's delicate sensibilities won't stop them.
When they finally get nuclear weapons, nothing will stop them.
I'm afraid Election '04, U.S.A., is just an interesting but relatively insignificant interlude along the way, regardless of the outcome.
???

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 08:00:12

Here is the question about steroids versus antibiotics - - UNLESS we close the schools and GIVE a billion Muslim children real hope for a better life (not a FAUX News America feel good TV spot) the waves of suicide bombers will never end.

I agree with the general sentiment, but there's a catch. How do we close the schools without closing them ourselves, at least in some cases? We can't give those billion Muslim children anything if they live in a society or under a government that filters everything. We can't give them hope, we have to build it and unfortunately we have to tear down a few things first. Military force isn't the whole answer, but it's part of the answer. We have not been using it in the best manner lately, but the simple reality is that we are trying to remake an entire region and we haven't much recent experience in that regard. We're stuck in an empire-building project, even if only as a means to an end and reluctantly.

More bluntly, the West botched decolonisation the first time around, now we have to fix it. In some cases it can be done through huminatarian aid, stacks of books and a few well-placed bullets in the night, but sometimes it's going to take conquest. The key is not trying to avoid the latter at all costs so much as knowing when it's appropriate. Whether Iraq qualifies depends entirely on how it's played from here on.

Whether we like it or not, we are blundering into an empire of sorts. We would do well to look at our predecessors in this regard rather than our own soft hearts and weak stomachs. We can accomplish a great deal of good and improve the lives of millions if not billions of people, but we'll also have to do some damn distasteful things in the process. If we can't do that, we're left with hiding or the "thousand points of light" option.

Though it wouldn't be prudent at this juncture.

It's not going to be clean or easy regardless, and getting the average American to accept that is as important as anything else.

And peace to all NewMarsians, regardless of politics.

Peace to all present, and many not. <nods respectfully, resumes preparations for war>

clark · 2004-11-02 08:08:14

If it's possible to pin down a moment in history when aggressive Islamic religious elements first made their presence felt, you might choose 1979,

I would choose Cain and Abel, but that's just me. [shrug] The play is always the same, the actors who speak the same lines only change costumes.

We can't give those billion Muslim children anything if they live in a society or under a government that filters everything.

Of course not! We have Halliburton to think of! no need for this crazy talk. We have corporations that need our help, they need that welfare.

I know it's true because the media conglomerates told me so.

Whether we like it or not, we are blundering into an empire of sorts. We would do well to look at our predecessors in this regard rather than our own soft hearts and weak stomachs.

Question of the day, who can name one empire that has survived history? Survey says... :laugh:

Peace to all present, and many not. <nods respectfully, resumes preparations for war>

Damn the Moonies! War upon the Moonies!

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 08:17:34

Of course not! We have Halliburton to think of! no need for this crazy talk. We have corporations that need our help, they need that welfare.
I know it's true because the media conglomerates told me so.

Yep, advertising is the same as theocratic dictatorship. No chance to get anything but what we're fed here either, hopeless.

Have a Coke.

Question of the day, who can name one empire that has survived history? Survey says...

No political entity is eternal. However the Roman and British Empires have had a profound influence on us even today. Mold a culture to mimic your own and who holds the sceptre becomes much less important.

Oh right, peace to all today.

clark · 2004-11-02 08:41:08

Yep, advertising is the same as theocratic dictatorship.

Do not besmirch the glourious icon of the "Swoosh", and the holy trinity of "Just Do it", "Where's the Beef", and "Army of One"! Oh get thee hence foul heretic, lest your sweet treasonous words beguile the ignorant and foolish!

Have a Coke? Have some coke... if I were but a young Geroge Bush [sigh]

No political entity is eternal. However the Roman and British Empires have had a profound influence on us even today. Mold a culture to mimic your own and who holds the sceptre becomes much less important.

Influence? Didn't you just point out that the current problems we face today are in large part the results of these same empires? Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 08:57:05

Influence? Didn't you just point out that the current problems we face today are in large part the results of these same empires? Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Specifically the latter example and its willing slide into oblivion. Its work wasn't done when it gave up. The accelerated abandoning of colonies by the British Empire contributed to the problem we currently face, so we who exist as a direct result of that very empire have to fix it. See, that's what I'm getting at. The British Empire is dead, leaving the United States, Australia and other descendents in its image. Rome still permeates us in more subtle but perhaps more significant ways. If we make them more like us, we win. Even if we lose.

Empire is best used not as a means to expand political dominion but to expand culture.

But Americans aren't up for it unless something changes, so in Bill's words, we're screwed.

clark · 2004-11-02 09:05:30

Oh, i get it now!

We need to take up where the previous Empire left off, who tried to make the world in their image, but lost everything because of it, to ultimetly expand our culture, apparently by force.

While this plan seems to have not worked in the thousands of years of recorded history, we now know better, don't we? :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 09:24:31

We need to take up where the previous Empire left off, who tried to make the world in their image, but lost everything because of it, to ultimetly expand our culture, apparently by force.

The previous empire lost the empire, not everything, and that empire spawned the closest allies that Britain could hope for.

We can't expand our culture by force, but at times we'll need to employ force in order to expand our culture. Subtle distinction.

While this plan seems to have not worked in the thousands of years of recorded history, we now know better, don't we?

What's your definition of "worked"? If the inability of the initiating power to hold the empire together infinitely constitutes failure than indeed it has never "worked", but by that reasoning every nation, every political system is a hopeless failure because none of them will endure forever. Humanity is in all likelihood a failure. Civilization is fluid, not some static thing enshrined behind marble columns. Flags and the names of nations are meaningless in the struggle between civilizations, which is what we are engaged in here one way or another.

It doesn't mean we have to march in with guns blazing, but we can't have peace without first changing the values and culture of the society that spawns our enemies.

To reference what Bill was saying, bring hope for a better future, close the terror schools... change them is the underlying task. Even taking the most velvet-gloved approach, using force only when unavoidable and under the cover of darkness, we will be exapnding our culture at the expense of theirs. Some will see the chnage as being for the best and they can be worked with. Others will only grow more enraged, but they're already trying to kill us so we have little to lose.

clark · 2004-11-02 09:37:16

We can't expand our culture by force, but at times we'll need to employ force in order to expand our culture. Subtle distinction.

Sure, sure my fine roman friend. I prefer to follow the Dutch example and simply sell them our culture. More profit to it.

It's a dim witted yankee indeed who has to resort to a gun to get others to buy his wares.

If the inability of the initiating power to hold the empire together infinitely constitutes failure than indeed it has never "worked", but by that reasoning every nation, every political system is a hopeless failure because none of them will endure forever. Humanity is in all likelihood a failure.

Doing the same thing over and over with the same results, with the expectation of different outcomes -this time- is insanity. Perhaps a different avenue might conclude in a different outcome. Just sayin.

Civilization is fluid, not some static thing enshrined behind marble columns. Flags and the names of nations are meaningless in the struggle between civilizations, which is what we are engaged in here one way or another.

So if civilization is fluid, why are we engaged in a battle to keep it static?

It doesn't mean we have to march in with guns blazing, but we can't have peace without first changing the values and culture of the society that spawns our enemies.

I think there are some guys in the mountains of Pakistan who wrote a memo saying the same thing. :laugh:

Hurrah! We are them and they are us! It is officaly over! :band:

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 09:53:09

Sure, sure my fine roman friend. I prefer to follow the Dutch example and simply sell them our culture. More profit to it.
It's a dim witted yankee indeed who has to resort to a gun to get others to buy his wares.

Selling them our wares is merely one angle in a multifaceted approach.

A few weeks ago I saw a picture of a terrorist in Iraq (in Newsweek IIRC), standing out in in the sand with his Kalashnikov... and an Adidas hat rolled down over his face.

Many cracks to seep through and erode the base they stand on.

Doing the same thing over and over with the same results, with the expectation of different outcomes -this time- is insanity. Perhaps a different avenue might conclude is a different outcome. Just sayin.

I'm not expecting different results. Every empire, every nation eventually falls. It's how long it takes and what they leave behind that matters.

But if you have a fix to endure for all time I'll gladly listen to the plan.

So if civilization is fluid, why are we engaged in a battle to keep it static?

We're fighting to keep it flowing our way.

I think there are some guys in the mountains of Pakistan who wrote a memo saying the same thing.
Hurrah! We are them and they are us! It is officaly over!

Oh no! Fundamental disagreements! Problems we can't sit down and hack out an enduring compromise on, we must be just like them only they have an excuse 'cause we're bigger.

Each side wants to make the other just like them, neither can win and there can be no lasting peace until one succeeds. This isn't news. That's why for all the tolerance and acceptance of Islam within our culture we're still infidels to be killed, and that's why we can't stop them without killing the most aggressive examples.

clark · 2004-11-02 09:56:02

But if you have a fix to endure for all time I'll gladly listen to the plan.

Follow me, and go to Mars. Yes, I plan to live forever.

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-02 10:01:44

Follow me, and go to Mars. Yes, I plan to live forever.

Follow me, I'll do the same thing only "smarter".

With allies, and window dressing. Ooh! and some french fries.

clark · 2004-11-02 10:08:35

Yeah, but you didn't deserve the medals.

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Re: A metaphor for the War on Terror - Any doctors here?

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