Kenneth Bigley beheaded...

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-08 16:46:23

Saw that they beheaded Kenneth Bigley. I was hoping for the best for that guy. Somehow I knew deep down he wasn't going to get out of that alive. Apparently he was saying positive things about Iraq up until the very last minute (if you don't know, Bigley made a plea for his life a few weeks ago, in which he talked for a good 30 minutes about his life, the Iraqi's, and how the war was unjust while pleading for Blair to "let the women held in Iraqi prisons go"). If that's true, then it that's just horrific. The Korean who was executed was similarily played. He cried and pleaded for his life until the last minute.

I'm going to make a confession, it may shock and even horrify you guys (Adrian may even be concerned about this topic even being brought up, especially if I go into detail, which I won't), but I've seen a few of these beheading videos. Let's just say that Eugene Armstrong was a very very brave man, and that I hope that from now on, whoever is executed (hopefully no one else will be), they act as admirably as he did. Not that I think that pleading is bad, I most certainly do not think that they are weak for it, I could see myself doing the same if faced with such futility (plus my two comrades having been beheaded just days earlier, probably faced with seeing their beheaded corpses).

This is a sad day.

MarsDog · 2004-10-08 17:33:55

The relatives of the beheaded should get together and hire mercenaries,
to torture and behead the relatives of the terrorists.
-
Even Osama might give himself up,
if his relatives were having their body parts chopped off.
-
Eye for an eye, toot for tooth, could be extended to a relative for a relative.
-
Soon you would have relatives capturing and turning in the terrorists.
-
The guards at the prison in Iraq should not have been discouraged,
just point them at the relatives of the terrorists.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-08 18:24:12

A very sad day, indeed, Josh.
I don't envy your having watched this sick barbarity - I couldn't have looked at it myself.

I very much understand your attitude, MarsDog; there are times when I'm overtaken by similar emotions of revenge. I don't believe we should do the same to the relatives of these savages, though.
Situations like these only make me all the more determined that we should do whatever it takes to hunt down and execute terrorists, wherever they may be. I can't begin to tell you how I feel about these ignorant monsters, most of whom know nothing except the Koran and mindless religious hatred. The thought of ordinary peaceful men dying so horribly and so unnecessarily at the hands of these swine is just too much to bear.
:bars2:

MarsDog · 2004-10-08 20:34:03

emotions of revenge

Not at all.

I read a story of why the Islamic terrorists did not target the Russians in the Communist era, when Jimmy Carter was involved with Iran. The story goes that the Islamists kidnapped a Russian, and the Russians kidnapped a relative of a terrorist, sending back one of the family jewels. No more kidnapping dangers for the Russians.

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-08 21:39:26

The key here is that the western world has a slightly different standard. When the western world kills largely innocent people, there is a rather large disconnect (ie, a bomb that kills a shopkeeper isn't as "personal" as a person slicing someones neck), and the question as to intent is blured (ie, collateral damage near a weapons facility vs unfortunate bombings of weddings). So, of course the western world isn't going to go to those more personal levels to inact some kind of justice. But that's also why it's so much more painful, because these acts are done on a very very personal level.

Bigley's speech was very heartfelt, if you haven't seen it (it was played on TV, since it didn't show anything but a man pleading for his life), I would actually recommend not watching it now that we know the ultimate result of his pleas. It truely does make it worse.

Apparently Bigley attempted to make an escape, with one of the captors, we have learned. I wonder the ultimate end of that captor which had some compassion and wanted to help Bigley escape. I suspect he was beheaded. Though they won't show that since, well, his face might be a giveaway as to who these people are. The captor should have ratted out the rest of them, rather than attempting to make an escape, but security may be too tight for that.

About the videos. Don't watch them. They will change you forever. You will never be the same. I regret doing it, especially in the case of Armstrong, even though in the end I found him to just be this amazingly admirable person, and actually, it has made me stronger from a certain perspective.

Following is what makes me admire Armstrong, you can decode it at your will, use rot13.com if you so desire, but just knowing what happened (which isn't very detailed, but it may make you queasy) may affect you in a way you wouldn't want, so be warned. Seriously.

Jura gurl fyvprq naq fnjrq ng uvf arpx, ur fpernzrq "ZHEQREREF!" naq pbagvahrq gb qb fb hagvy ur ybfg pbafpvbhfarff, juvpu jnf npghnyyl dhvgr njuvyr (20 frpbaqf be fb). Guvf frag n puvyy hc zl fcvar, ohg vafvqr V sryg cebhq bs guvf zna, naq V zrna gung va gur fvaprerfg jnl. Gb unir gur pbhentr naq jvyy gb znxr lbhe ibpny pbeqf zbir nf fbzrguvat vf fnjvat njnl ng lbhe arpx sbe fb ybat. V jvyy or nssrpgrq sberire.

Trebuchet · 2004-10-08 23:01:18

I read a story of why the Islamic terrorists did not target the Russians in the Communist era, when Jimmy Carter was involved with Iran. The story goes that the Islamists kidnapped a Russian, and the Russians kidnapped a relative of a terrorist, sending back one of the family jewels. No more kidnapping dangers for the Russians.

Actually, if I recall correctly, this is not quite an accurate summary of events. The terrorists had kidnapped the man and were threatening all sorts of nasty things to him. The KGB abducted two members of the group, shot them full of bullets, stapled a note to one's forehead saying "Two a day until we get ours back" and dumped them on the doorstop of a sympathizer. Various terrorists started turning up in Beirut dumpsters over the next few days.

The Russian was released.

That terrorist group never bothered the Russians again.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-08 23:12:27

Ah, I see, MarsDog.
I didn't realise there was actual evidence to suggest that tit-for-tat kidnapping and mutilation of terrorists' relatives is effective in preventing further kidnappings. I see the method in your 'madness' now.

I'm afraid, though, that the terrorists might wait and see how far the West would actually go in this direction. We might send them a testicle, an ear, even a surgically removed kidney, but what if they were to call our bluff and wait out the situation, to see whether we have what they would cynically call the 'guts' to actually execute the relative on T.V.?

And then there's Josh's point about Western moral standards. He is quite right, of course, that we see a difference between collateral damage and deliberate brutal execution of innocent people. My point of view, for what it may be worth, is that we can't do what they do. I cannot condone the mutilation and execution of innocents who just happen to be related to a barbarian.

As an aside, I note the continual emphasis, on Australian SBS news in particular, on the deaths of civilian Iraqis in besieged towns full of terrorists. The reports mention the deaths of scores of innocent Iraqis in car bombings but rarely show pictures of the carnage. Large sections of the news slot, though, are taken up with images of the civilians accidentally killed by Coalition attacks on terrorist strongholds.
The bias is unmistakable. Accidental deaths caused by the Coalition are apparently of far more importance than the greater numbers of civilian deaths caused quite deliberately by terrorists. This political agenda in journalism is disturbing, at least to me, and stands in stark contrast to an earlier time when news reporting was even-handed, just the facts.
The deaths of innocent civilians are inevitable, of course, when the terrorists choose to mix in with the general populace in the residential areas of towns. These terrorists show their true colours in their cynicism toward the safety of their fellow Muslims. They are indeed the worst kind of cowardly scum and civilian Iraqis in these towns should organise themselves and rise up against these murderers who are trying to deny them a free and democratic Iraq. Then again, I suppose any attempt by ordinary citizens at arresting terrorists and presenting them to the Coalition would be met with brutal reprisals - they daren't try it.

In the meantime, the relentless propaganda against the armed forces of Britain, America, and Australia goes on unabated. They are a magnificent body of troops doing a very difficult job in the fight for freedom and civilisation. Some of them may soon be pushing on into Iran and Syria, as and when the U.N. locks horns with Tehran over its nuclear program. I think they deserve our support and gratitude in their efforts to make the world a safer place.
They certainly have my backing.
:up:

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-09 00:16:18

Yeah, I find it very disconcerting when so called liberals have a hard time denouncing the "insurgents" when they blow up an Iraqi police station and kill dozens of civilans in the process. I personally don't see much bias in the news with regards to Iraq, but no negative news with regards to Iraq is really reported here in the states, so yeah.

Rxke · 2004-10-09 04:05:41

About the videos. Don't watch them.

Too late.

And I agree... Watching this stuff is *very* disturbing, to put it mildly. Don't do it, this is not entertainment... Hollywood, or the plethora of violent videogames etc. has *not* prepared you for this. You'll sit nailed to your chair, feeling very odd. It's a physical thing.

OTOH, I saw an interview with one of the insurgents, and I could see his point, in a way...
They see their families being blown up from helicopters, rockets from the sky, in 'surgical' strikes, and they go completely crazy. They can't get at the people who did this and 'short-circuit' in their feelings...
Most of them were *not* extremists before... They just get enlisted in this mess by some opportunists who channel those guy's despair, now *that* is sickening.

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-09 04:27:37

Exactly, suicide bombers or whoever don't just decide one day "oh, I'm going to kill myself!" They have to first get into this really deep depression, and then someone, a religious fundamentalist, for example, must then persuade them that suicide bombing is a "good thing." I'm by no means attempting to absolve suicide bombers or "insurgents," but that's the real reason here. And from a certain point of view I can absolutely see it. If I were to lose half my family in a bombing, I would enlist in whatever militia I can. But we must realize that the vast vast majority of Iraqi's aren't this way (nor are, I would argue, a vast majority of humans, just those who go through this paticular dispair; it explains the African genocides that essentially were spurred from a few fights between neighboring tribes, compelling every individual to take up a weapon and fight).

What we have in Iraq are small groups of "insurgents" who don't really speak for any majority. An Iraqi might not decry roadside bomb which has taken out part of a convoy, but they will almost universially decry the bombing of a police station... or a school full of innocent children.

Palomar · 2004-10-09 05:26:55

About the videos. Don't watch them.
And I agree... Watching this stuff is *very* disturbing, to put it mildly. Don't do it,

*I wouldn't. ::shiver:: Not putting down anyone who HAS; I suppose you had your reasons, etc. Saw a biography about Ed Gein last night -- that was bad enough (started effecting my dreams). His crime scenes were just barely and carefully "re-enacted"; I'm glad they -didn't- show actual crime scene photos.

There's a point of soul contamination people should avoid, IMO. Occasionally (VERY occasionally), for instance, I'll read a news bit or watch a 1-hour documentary about a serial killer or something akin. But I avoid detailed *photos* in particular.

Sympathizing/empathizing for the victims, feeling outrage for the brutality and murder, is entirely possible without allowing a more intimate essence of the perpetrators to seep into the depths of one's psyche and soul. Frankly, I think it should be avoided at all costs. I don't want anything of THAT in me.

--Cindy

::edit::

Shaun: As an aside, I note the continual emphasis, on Australian SBS news in particular, on the deaths of civilian Iraqis in besieged towns full of terrorists. The reports mention the deaths of scores of innocent Iraqis in car bombings but rarely show pictures of the carnage. Large sections of the news slot, though, are taken up with images of the civilians accidentally killed by Coalition attacks on terrorist strongholds.
The bias is unmistakable. Accidental deaths caused by the Coalition are apparently of far more importance than the greater numbers of civilian deaths caused quite deliberately by terrorists. This political agenda in journalism is disturbing, at least to me, and stands in stark contrast to an earlier time when news reporting was even-handed, just the facts.

*Yes, I agree. It is bias. Also, I can't help wondering how much of this is due to a cowardly sort of "go along with the perceived majority opinion" mentality in order to avoid being sidelined, ostracized, etc. Frankly, I think that's a lot of it. It's easier to cuddle up with the herd. A lot more people (individually or in groups) WILL jump on a particular bandwagon simply to avoid negative social consequences than may generally be realized.

Most "news" nowadays -isn't- about simply presenting (in a cool, detached, objective manner) the viewer with the facts; it's about influencing (if not outright manipulating) the viewer's perceptions and especially emotions. That's not journalism; it's a form of propoganda, IMO.

Stu · 2004-10-09 05:57:40

Ironically, and tragically, I was reading this very thread when Sky News started showing live coverage of the 2 minutes silence (which turned into 3 minutes) in the city of Liverpool, Ken Bigley's birthplace. Long, lingering camera shots showing groups of people standing silently in the city streets, heads bowed in contemplation; large photos of Bigley here and there; the clock hands dragging themselves around; the Mayor talkinmg oh-so-politically-correctly about how the people of Liverpool are saddened but forgiving...

... etc etc...

Absolutely sickening, isn't it?

I daren't watch those videos Josh, because they might reinforce feelings I'm not, frankly, proud of. Watching those black-clad barbarians standing behind the hostages over the past weeks and months - hooded cowards, clutching their guns and standing in front of their flag - it's made me feel, I'm not ashamed to admit, utter hatred for them. I've wanted to throw a grenade in that room and splash every one of them onto the walls. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

I'm a self-confessed news junkie, so I've heard hours and hours worth of talking heads insisting that Islam isn't "for" such acts; that good Moslems are sickened by these atrocities; how these murderers - not "insurgents", not "freedom fighters" or "activists", murderers, who hack off innocent people's heads with knives - have contaminated the essence of Islam and polluted it, turning it into something unrecognisable. I've heard all that. I've seen so-called "community leaders" nodding sagely to camera, descrining the murders as "inexcusable" and "wrong". I've seen it all again and again and again.

Fact is, I don't care any longer. We have to do something before the world goes to hell in a religious war. That war is brewing now, the opening shots are ringing out in the streets of Israel, Palestine and Iraq. Hotels are collapsing into rubble in Egypt. Trains are exploding in Spain. It's already started, whether we like it or not. And it is going to get worse. I wake up every day and wonder of today will be the day a news flash breaks into the music of the radio station I listen to at work, on my headphones, and tell me that "we're getting reports..." of a plane crashing into the Houses of Parliament, or Buckingham Palace, or the White House or Congress or a nuclear power station or the Eifel Tower or Golden Gate Bridge or...

And yes, it makes me feel frightened - and

Stu · 2004-10-09 06:02:42

(Part 2 because my whole post didn;t make it on last time... dodgy AOL connection today...)

And yes, it makes me feel frightened - and mad. I feel myself distrusting Arabs and Middle Easterners I see, feel myself blaming them, irrationally, unfairly, for the murders committed by those people in Iraq. I can't help it, it just happens. I'd never act on it, but others might - will, I fear - have less self control, and I worry that the next attack, or even the next kidnap, might lead to some form of revenge attack. We'll be a step nearer the edge of the abyss then - but many will say it's understandable.

I'm not a racist, or anti-religious, but the fact is that these murderers shout out their backgrounds and religious beliefs through loud-hailers, so is there any wonder that there's a backlash simmering away in the background? I have no doubt at all - because I've met some of them, recently too - that the vast majority of Moslems are good, decent people who detest what's being done in the name of their faith. But there's no getting away from the fact that a minority of people who share and celebrate their faith are the ones killing people - individually with knives, by the hundred with bombs in nightclubs, or by the thousand by crashing planes into buildings - so that is what most people think when they hear the word "moslem".

It's, frankly, up to the "good" Moslems, the vast majority of the people who follow that ancient faith, to change this perception by more vocally and passionately condemning the murderers and joining together to help rid the world of them. We were told again and again on the TV news that the "good people of Iraq were revolted by the actions of hostage takers." Yeah? Well PROVE it. Stop taking the p- and prove how good you are. The house where Bigley and his American colleagues were being kept wasn't built in a cave. It wasn't standing on its own, like the Ingalls house in Little House On The Prairie. It had houses, buildings around it. It had neighbours. The hostage-takers must have been seen by people in the area. Any one of them could have notified the authorities. But didn't. That has to change.

The brutal, honest truth is that these people - the hostage takers - have no interest in religion, or in justice. No belief in the values or worth of family, no belief in the sanctity or worth of life. They don't want to see women prisoners released out of a sense of fairness, they want them out to use their knowledge of manufacturing chemical weapons so they can kill even more people. They're butchers who enjoy killing. If they can kill two people instead of one, they will. If they can aquire the means to kill thousands, or tens of thousands, they will. If they can aquire an atom bomb, allowing them to take out a city, they will, regardless of how many moslems die in the fireball.

One of the most sickening things of all is that they love the publicity. They film their atrocities on video and distribute them to news agencies. They use the internet to reach the world. They're media savvy; Bigley was obviously held such a long time in order to pressurise Tony Blair during his party's Conference, and to make political life difficult for him. This is a new enemy we're facing now - one that claims to despise our values and our way of life, but is happy to use elements of our own society to attack us: despite declaring their loathing for the West and its values, they most likely sit in the next room to their crying hostages, glugging back bottles of Bud, watching an imported widesecreen TV, glued to the rolling coverage of their activities on CNN, revelling in their high media profile.

I don't know what we can do, I really don't. I just have this terrible, glacial feeling in the pit of my stomach that this is just the beginning. We may well be approaching one of those points in history where the world is sent spinning in a different direction. I worry that we may be just weeks or days away from another terrorist atrocity in the US, to embarrass George Bush before the election. I worry that we, here, in the UK, will run out of luck soon and the terrorists will get through. I worry that the next time I turn on the TV news I'll see shaky footage of the streets of London, New York or San Francisco blurred by wafting clouds nuclear-dust after the detonation of a dirty bomb.

But we have to do something.

I remember watching an episode of THE WEST WING, a couple of years ago it must be now, and something the character of leo McGarry said made a huge impression on me. He was talking with Bartlett about terrorism, fundamentalism etc, and he sighed, in a moment of despair, "What will it take to stop this... a mushroom cloud over Mecca?"

It worries me that some people in the real world may be thinking the very same thing.

Sorry for the rant.

Rxke · 2004-10-09 06:03:50

Not putting down anyone who HAS; I suppose you had your reasons, etc.

Disclaimer: here we go againd, down the slippery slope of language-barriers and typed text, I'm afraid...

Not sure if I get your point. You mea it's a choice to see this stuff or not? A moral thing to do it or not?

I got the link from a friend, and was not really errr... 'mentally prepared' to see it, took me off-guard to say the very least... But...

In a way it was interesting (ok, this sounds real sick, but bear with me...) to see the killers were *not* cool-blooded, they were clearly *very* nervous, even scared... and trying to get themselves into a frenzy by shouting 'god is great...' repeatedly, loudly... before doing it.

it almost looked like a self-induced brainwashing of sorts... Mantra-like They are amateurs, and there's clearly someone 'behind the scenes, goading them, IMO...

Palomar · 2004-10-09 06:16:23

Not putting down anyone who HAS; I suppose you had your reasons, etc.
Disclaimer: here we go againd, down the slippery slope of language-barriers and typed text, I'm afraid...
Not sure if I get your point. You mea it's a choice to see this stuff or not? A moral thing to do it or not?

*Hi Rik.

No, I didn't mean to imply morals.

You have your reasons for having viewed a beheading video, I have my reasons for not viewing one. Choice.

--Cindy

::edit::

In a way it was interesting (ok, this sounds real sick, but bear with me...) to see the killers were *not* cool-blooded, they were clearly *very* nervous, even scared... and trying to get themselves into a frenzy by shouting 'god is great...' repeatedly, loudly... before doing it.

*Which to me seems to indicate they may have a conscience after all, and a gut feeling that what they are doing is wrong. Maybe there's a bit of hope they'll change and quit committing these murders. But I doubt it; chances are they'll simply continue murdering innocent civilians and continue to harden themselves. Sad. ::shakes head::

Palomar · 2004-10-09 07:37:45

*Stu:

I agree with everything you said.

What now comes to mind is Ayn Rand's essay "The Age of Envy." It's recommended reading.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-09 08:59:12

Cindy:-

There's a point of soul contamination people should avoid, IMO. ... I don't want anything of THAT in me.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly - well chosen words. The censored parts of the video are quite enough for me to be able to get a glimmering of what those poor men must have gone through.
As I've said, I have no intention of listening to terrified men pleading piteously for their lives and then watching as they're slaughtered without mercy. There's such a thing as too much information.

Thank you, Stu, for your typically descriptive post about your feelings in all this. I don't think it's any secret that you are very well regarded here at New Mars, not only for your excellent writing but for your obvious intelligence and good nature.
In view of this, I was almost relieved to find that your opinions and mine, with regard to the whole Islamofascist problem, are in close agreement. 'Relieved' sounds like the wrong word in this context, of course, since it seems incongruous to be relieved about anything in the face of such a burgeoning calamity.
Only a relatively few people at New Mars seem to see the present world situation in quite the same way as I (we) see it. To me, it appears self-evident that a socio-religious virus has infected the world, in the form of extremist Islam. I've been trying to say that this problem is not an academic one and playing the blame game won't make it go away. Whether you imagine capitalism is the culprit (it isn't) or that America is to blame for everything (it isn't), or whether you want to sit down and beat your own breast just because you're a Westerner and we're all guilty in the West (we're not), will make no difference. The terrorists don't care.
Stu, you've suggested it's way past time for the main body of Islam thoroughly to denounce the murderers in its midst. I certainly agree with that and I know others here have expressed the same opinion. It doesn't look like it's going to happen, though; if it were ever going to, it should have happened by now.
I'm like you in another way, too. I wake up every morning and turn on the T.V. with more than a little trepidation. I've been fearing the same kind of news you mentioned - a 'dirty' bomb in Washington DC, mains water biologically contaminated in London, maybe something even worse ... .
I don't know what can be done about it either and I fear you're right about a potential religious war, which is probably what these psychopaths want from us. Taking the war to them seems to be the only option open to us and that's why I have supported the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq - a sometimes difficult path to take around these parts!
Anyhow, thanks for a great post!

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-09 10:39:51

Back when Nick Berg was beheaded I had a brief conversation via PM with a member of this forum regarding some arguments put forth on the internet and elsewhere that the incident was faked. I reviewed the list of "evidence" and concluded the only way to really form an opinion was to watch it.

It sat on my harddrive for a week, I wasn't going to run that while my wife was home, she certainly doesn't need to see it. Finally I had a chance to analyze that footage... and couldn't quite bring myself to. I couldn't make myself sit here in my swivel chair, safe and comfortable, and watch a man die. To this day I've not watched any of the beheadings.

But I don't need to, because I already get it. As many have already said here and elsewhere, these people are murdering thugs, we can't reach some kind of settlement with them anymore than you can negotiate with a rabid dog. Unfortunately, not enough people do get it, we hear about...

Told myself I wasn't going to rant.

"Soul contamination" is as good a way to phrase it as any. But there are two ways of avoiding it, some of us (and I think Cindy is included in this group) understand what's happening, understand the monstrous nature of those committing these acts, and understand the need to deal with them in the only way that will stop them, with deadly force. We don't need to watch them hack a man to death with a dull machete while chanting praise to their particular invisible man in the sky. We get it.

But too many people don't get it. They can't understand something like this unless you rub it in their face. There's a large percentage of the population of this country, and others, that really need to be sat down in a dark room and forced to watch one of these things. Maybe then we'll all get it, and maybe then we can work together to deal with it instead of coming up with ridiculous conspiracy theories and petty Left/Right squabbles.

Grypd · 2004-10-09 12:06:01

What people must realise that these thugs (thugs being quite relevant as the term comes from thugees a small minority who murdered in the name of religion but really just for profit) ARE A MINORITY TRYING TO STIR TROUBLE SO THEY CAN PROFIT.

They want a holy war and know the only way they can get it is to stir the vast majority of Muslims to there twisted side. What they want is to cause a western backlash and to get it they murder westerners using western media to push there ideals and expect our press to point the blame not on them but at our elected politicians. What they want is for the people of the west to retaliate and give credence to there propaganda that the west wishes to destroy there religion. These groups are funded by supporters and by criminal means. How do we stop them.

To get at these criminals requires a many pronged attack to work. The first thing that must be done is to go after there funding and people who pay money to these groups be named and shamed and hopefully prosecuted. This is hard but it can destroy these organisations. The second thing is to ensure that these criminals can never feel safe and to that we need to know what they are doing we need to actually be inside the organisations with our own sleepers and to have a very good intelligence on there operations. Thirdly the actual combat cells must be stopped, Hard. This means hunting them down and killing them and the leaders in whatever country they are. In this the example is Israel who does just this and seems to be having the some success. Britain was using the same tactics on the IRA which eventually lead to the IRA sueing for peace.

Finally the only sure way to destroy these organisations is to destroy the enviroment that breeds them. The west has no choice at the moment but to deal with the middle east as it is there where the oil that runs our economy comes from. Until oil came the majority of the Middle east including there leaders where poor very backward regions. Now they are a rich society in the case of the oil states but the majority of the people are still backward peasants. They are brought up on stories of the crusades against islam and of the great jihads. One way is to improve the conditions of these people and to bring there standards of living up to the standards we enjoy. We are trying to do that now and these extremists are trying to stop us.

Of course if we moved away from an oil based economy these countries would have no power over us and with that and no income coming in they become the minor states they should be and looking to the rich west for a handout.

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-09 12:22:20

Foolish curiosity spurred me to watch the earliest video (ie, Daniel Pearl), and after that I told myself I'd never watch one again (didn't sleep for several weeks after watching it). Recently though I'm in a really dark time of my life right now... and have been for a month or two... I didn't even cry for these guys... though I truely felt like falling to the floor and squalling like a baby. So that curiosity returned.

I disagree mostly with Rxke's observation. I didn't sense nervousnes, and I think they frankly knew exactly what they were doing. Iraq (and other Islamic countries for that matter, our best friends the Saudi's for example) has had beheadings as a form of state execution for a long time, and it has been done quickly and painlessly. If these guys wanted to do it that way, they could. Their absolutely brutal methods are intentional. I sense anger in their voices. I feel that they have forgotten what it is to be human. They do not consider those who they have executed "human." The only reason one of the captors probably made an escape attempt with Ken is because Ken spent that hour or so (in two different instances, total) pleading and crying for his life in the most sincere way possible.

Cobra Commander, you shouldn't watch any of them, no one should. But the Nick Berg video was very bad quality, which is why people considered it fake. The reality was that you couldn't see much of anything at all, which is probably why it was so popular. You don't see people running around saying "Ooh! Armstrong's beheading was faked!" The people who foolishly thought this sort of thing was a conspiracy probably learned that real freaking quick with the Kim Sun video. I actually pity them because I'm sure in their minds it was so solidified that these acts weren't real that they were affected a lot more than someone going into it prepared.

My soul is already contaminated. This isn't about "not getting it." It's about this convulted desire to know something few know, or dare to know, to keep that moment of history alive, because if we don't, we'll forget. It's not shown on TV because it's brutal. Only a few journalists and maybe some military are seeing these videos (and of course people with a morbid curiosity on the internet). I'd reckon no more than a million people actually know, actually freaking know what happened. I was talking to someone about Armstrongs last moments and they made some very poetic observations. Tragic observations, but they were so poetic. I cried for a while when it was pointed out.

Orsber ur jnf xvyyrq gurer jnf n urnil oerrmr, naq n phegva pbhyq or frra syhggrevat va gur vzntrf... n jvaqbj bs rfpncr jnf whfg srrg sebz Nezfgebat... gur ynfg uhzna guvat ur sryg jnf cebonoyl gung oerrmr... n gnfgr bs serrqbz.

But like I said, what makes it worse is that it's personal. Wars shouldn't be personal. Which is one reason it's good that the videos aren't rubbed into peoples faces, because then it would become personal. Until you watch these videos, you will not really understand that.

Rxke · 2004-10-09 12:41:10

I disagree mostly with Rxke's observation. I didn't sense nervousnes, and I think they frankly knew exactly what they were doing.

Well... I saw two, but don't know which. (Anymore)

One (I think Nick Berg,) they clearly acted in cold blood. The other one was clearly more 'amateur.' And that shocked me most. I could almost sense a Zarquawi(sp?) giving out written orders, and these people just following orders, knowing (or rather: feeling) fully well they were waaay beyond the pale...

Palomar · 2004-10-09 12:49:35

I disagree mostly with Rxke's observation. I didn't sense nervousnes, and I think they frankly knew exactly what they were doing. Iraq (and other Islamic countries for that matter, our best friends the Saudi's for example) has had beheadings as a form of state execution for a long time, and it has been done quickly and painlessly. If these guys wanted to do it that way, they could. Their absolutely brutal methods are intentional. I sense anger in their voices. I feel that they have forgotten what it is to be human. They do not consider those who they have executed "human."

*It seems to me that an all-too-generous portion of people fail to view others as human. A handful of religious and philosophical groups immediately spring to mind which view non-members/non-adherents as "lessers," based even on simple ideological differences (never mind vast differences!).

"Mankind's inhumanity to mankind."

--Cindy

clark · 2004-10-09 15:09:25

I really wish I wasn't into cryptograms Josh.

DonPanic · 2004-10-09 15:16:53

LO
I'm as disgusted as everybody.
But I damn Bush for that war in Irak more than ever, not any european nor any american folk would have been endangered that way in Irak under saddam regime as infect he could have been.
He and Blair are accountabable for each of a life lost since they invaded Irak.
Who will dare now tell me the world is safer since Saddam regime has been ousted ?
Who will dare go to Madrid tell the Spanishes the world is safer after Irak invasion ?
Who will dare say to those Iraki parents of children killed by terrorist blastes or american missiles the world is safer than before Saddam ?
Bush and supporters choosed war at Irak instead of the real silent secret war at terrorists that needs full support in Middle East with the help these countries secret services. He spread a chaos nobody knows how to stop it
Yes he can parade on US Navy aircraft carriers claiming for a so bright victory over saddam !
Well done GWB ! Great job !

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-09 17:38:49

To borrow a little from CC's post, DonPanic you DonGetIt!

And I'm not even going to attempt to explain it to you. If you've read everything that's been posted here at New Mars in recent months, and still carry on with the views you've just outlined, then I guess the gulf is just too wide between us.

Some of you here probably know of John Howard, the Australian Prime Minister who sent Aussie troops out to Afghanistan and Iraq on the first available boats, to fight alongside British and American soldiers.
Well, let me tell you, that man has been harried, pilloried, vilified, and had pins stuck into little effigies that look just like him(! ), by the Australian media, ever since the Iraq invasion. Fortunately, the media attacks have been seen by the Australian people for the shameless political exercise that they were.
John Howard was re-elected Prime Minister last night, with a substantially increased majority, and may well gain control of the Senate too.

I'm glad to be able to report that the majority of Australians apparently DoGetIt !!
:up:

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