1st Presidential debate - who won?

Rxke · 2004-10-03 07:56:14

Newsweek now says Kerry leads with 3 points on Bush!

That's a *very* significant change... Wow...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/]More here

Mad Grad Student · 2004-10-04 19:54:19

Response to Cindy's comment:

Yeah, I'd have to put myself in that 98+% European category as well. A little bit of English, some German, some Irish, so by heritige that makes me American. As Schoolhouse Rock says, America is the great melting pot, and there's some truth to that. More than any other country on Earth, The US recieves and integrates dozens of other cultures into itself. While Europe's population is either stagnating or in free-fall depending on the country, America's population is going steady because of the massive influence of immigration. More and more people in developed countries are having fewer children, a trend that will likely continue into the future, and America will likely maintain its population only because of how open it is to immigration. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on immigration (so long as it's legal), but openess to it is one of the biggest divides in idealogy between the EU and the US.

To me at least my European heritige is entirely an academic subject. It's interesting, but ultimately not that inspiring, I'm not going to show up for school some day wearing all green and start saying "Top o' the mornin' to ya!" just because part of my lineage stems from Ireland, but I do find geneology interesting, on a detached level anyway. More than anything else I'm a human, then American, etc, etc, and I have to say that I don't really identify with being a European. But it can be intereting to muse about this kind of thing sometimes. The Irish potato famine killed millions of people and devistated the European economy, but without it my anscestors would never have come to America and I would never have been concieved. It was an awful disaster, but if it had never occured, from my perspective, it would have been a far far worse disaster. If you went back in time a thousand years and killed a random person you wouldn't have 100 million fewer people living on Earth, but you might have 100 million different people. That's a weird thought.

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-04 20:06:40

The media has been quite good over Kerry's obvious win, I was surprised. I predicted he'd do good, but I didn't think the coverage would be favorable at all. It seems the positive coverage is also pushing his numbers a bit. I think there's an uncosncious will for this to be a really close race.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 13:37:25

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … istime]The Prince vs. The Frog :laugh:

*"...a historic first: a vice presidential debate that plays a pivotal role in who becomes president."

Edwards definitely has the advantage with his good looks, seeming approachability, etc.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-05 13:54:33

Edwards definitely has the advantage with his good looks, seeming approachability, etc.

I'm expecting a slaughter, actually. If Cheney is a wolf, Edwards is a lamb being lowered into the cage. An angry lamb with some fight, but dinner nonetheless.

Bush let Kerry get away with alot, Cheney won't do the same with Edwards.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 14:07:23

Edwards definitely has the advantage with his good looks, seeming approachability, etc.
I'm expecting a slaughter, actually. If Cheney is a wolf, Edwards is a lamb being lowered into the cage. An angry lamb with some fight, but dinner none the less.
Bush let Kerry get away with alot, Cheney won't do the same with Edwards.

*Wow, interesting response Cobra.

But will most folks tuning in really pay attention to the issues at stake? Or will most people viewing tonight, as Machiavelli asserted about human nature, simply be impressed with appearances?

Look how much media attention was focused on Bush's smirk, Kerry not smiling enough. Appearances.

That dazzling smile of Edwards' is something for Mr. Grumpy to consider. Unless we see Edwards smirking under pressure (doubtful)...but wouldn't it be interesting if each winds up acting somewhat like the others' senior running mate?

--Cindy

P.S.: If Cheney is too harsh on Edwards, that could backfire too. Cheney looks like an old man. Edwards is 12 years younger, and though he may not appear this way to some of the younger folks *here*, to me he doesn't look a day over 45. Mean old man picking on a younger, more inexperienced guy...that's how it could be construed/felt by viewers.

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-05 14:17:03

But will most folks tuning in really pay attention to the issues at stake? Or will most people viewing tonight, as Machiavelli asserted about human nature, simply be impressed with appearances?

Only to a point. If Edwards gets reamed on the issues the gleam of his smile won't save him. Appearences on another level perhaps, but if Cheney makes Edwards look like a naive political noob, Cheney wins.

The question is whether Edwards' skills on the courtroom floor will help him here, and the short answer is only if he can use hard facts to make Cheney look bad while deflecting the same from himself, no small task. He might surprise us, but I suspect he'll get roasted.

Vice-Presidential debates don't really affect the race much, never have. The impact this will have either way is largely overhyped.

But then since the election is rigged anyway, enjoy the show.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 14:53:28

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … c]Gunshots fired in Knoxville, TN: Bush-Cheney campaign hdqtrs

Fortunately no one injured.

--Cindy

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-05 15:24:59

I don't mean to mock or laugh at the Americna president, but I was wondering if he has a mental problem such as difficulty with speaking or a slight reading disability ? I recall about 3 years ago some American doctor said something like after asking a third expert, who said, "Bush is probably dyslexic" or some problem like this. There are just so many gaffes, bungles and stutters when he talks or is he just nervous about talking in public ?

???

Over a year ago he caused a little madness in the Asian economies and US stock market when George W Bush made a statement about "devaluation" in Japan , he was meant to address the problem of "deflation", but because he brought up this other sudden-subject it caused cash to fall and stocks to drop, the next day of course Bush aides hastened to clear up the confusion, saying the president - in Japan as part of an Asian tour - had "misspoken

does Bush have some kind of slight disability ?

:hm:

Mad Grad Student · 2004-10-05 18:25:34

Edwards definitely has the advantage with his good looks, seeming approachability, etc.
I'm expecting a slaughter, actually. If Cheney is a wolf, Edwards is a lamb being lowered into the cage. An angry lamb with some fight, but dinner nonetheless.
Bush let Kerry get away with alot, Cheney won't do the same with Edwards.

Unfortunately, I think I agree with Cobra overall, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a wolf vs. a sheep tonight. Normally one would think that Edwards' appearance and likability would be an asset, but it could end up backfiring on him. A lot of people are under the impression that this is very serious business this election (and in all likelihood are right), and Edwards' charm won't stand a chance against Cheney's grave seriousness. "C'mon, who cares about charm, we're in a war here!?" is what many people might say.

However, if Cheney starts playing up on his doom-and-gloom scinerio that a change in power during the war on terrorism will make the US a sitting duck it's all over for him, he'll be laughed out of the room, metaphorically at least. Nobody will take him seriously if he starts saying that electing John Kerry will make a disastorous terrorist strike on America inevitable.

And anyway, these guys aren't going to be president, why is this such a big deal?

This election seems to have come down to something like the doomsday baseball scinerio of Red Sox vs. Cubs in the World Series. For those unfamiliar, the Red Sox are a baseball team that hasn't won the world series since 1918 and the Cubs are a team that hasn't won it since 1908. So if they ever met in a world series, neither team would be able to win, the theory goes. Anyways, no American president in history has ever won with approval ratings as low as Bush's have been this year, but no current senator has been elected president since before the civil war. Either way, history will be made this election.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 20:54:25

And anyway, these guys aren't going to be president, why is this such a big deal?

*Because it's an extremely tight race, people are registering to vote in droves and there is much at stake. Cheney and Edwards are, of course, the running mates. As VP candidates in this particular election-year circumstance, their influence (or lack thereof) just may tip the scales in the favor of the Presidential candidate. In 2000 only 57% of the American public watched the VP debate; tonight 76% of the population tuned in.

Also, considering all the factors at stake now as opposed to pre-9/11, one of them will be sworn in as President should the original President die/be killed or assassinated, etc. This is another reason people are looking more closely at the running mates, IMO.

Cheney did much better than Bush (though that's probably not saying much). Can give Cheney credit for not looking too boarish or grumpy. He's articulate and he definitely had his "ammo" at the ready...including repeatedly pointing out the many times both Edwards and Kerry haven't voted on issues they now claim to champion. Cheney mentioned Edwards' own home newspaper as dubbing him "Senator Gone," i.e. out of 38 gov't meetings Edwards missed 33, and also that despite the regular Tuesday night sessions on Capitol Hill (?) and Cheney's presiding over those meetings, tonight was the first night he's met Edwards in person. OUCH. He rattled Edwards a bit, at least twice. By contrast, Cheney was pretty much solidly poised throughout.

Edwards is a bit on the expressive side, isn't he? Watched his eyes especially, and how he'd narrow them in a slightly dramatic, skeptical-challenging sort of way.

I'll be surprised if Cheney -doesn't- tip the scales in favor of the Republican ticket.

--Cindy

Euler · 2004-10-05 22:00:54

He's articulate and he definitely had his "ammo" at the ready...including repeatedly pointing out the many times both Edwards and Kerry haven't voted on issues they now claim to champion. Cheney mentioned Edwards' own home newspaper as dubbing him "Senator Gone," i.e. out of 38 gov't meetings Edwards missed 33, and also that despite the regular Tuesday night sessions on Capitol Hill (?) and Cheney's presiding over those meetings, tonight was the first night he's met Edwards in person.

That is not too surprising. I think that most congressmen miss more meetings than they go to. If you ever watch c-span, you will see that unless something really important is being discussed, the meetings are almost completely deserted.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-05 23:42:44

Not a bad show

http://www.bushspeaks.com/img/Bush_Chen … n_Logo.gif

http://www.mediaresearch.org/stillshots … 012604.jpg

http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Chene … heney1.jpg

http://www.csufresno.edu/Collegian/arch … ...ton.jpg

bechetel , parsons I must say it was a laugh listening to Dick trying to defend all the lost dollars in Iraq, and trying to defend those big companies which suck the life out of American tax payers

Is it any wonder the American economy is sinking in debt and from corporate madness
and the Chinese, the EU, S.Korean and other economies are growing nicely while the American surplus sinks into Trillions of debt
Oh yeah that's not just a few Billion of overspending it's TRILLIONS :down:

People may have been correct when they said the President candidate Kerry lacked charm,
but Cheney always reminds me of the beedy Mr Burns from the Simpsons

Euler · 2004-10-06 00:03:45

Edwards is dominating the web instant polls after the VP debate. However, most of that is probably because more dems are responding to the polls than GOP.

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-06 05:46:20

I must say Edwards did slightly better than I expected. I'd still call it a clear win for Cheney, but Edwards wasn't slaughtered so much as maimed. He survived, but didn't really distinguish himself while Cheney was able to bring the knives out a few times without looking too eager.

And anyway, these guys aren't going to be president, why is this such a big deal?

Tecumseh's curse! Remember Tecumseh's Curse!

Which necessitates that Bush be re-elected. Unless of course the great Ronald Reagan broke the curse for all time.

Otherwise, Cheney will be President. Muahahahaha!

That, and Bush masks are out selling Kerry masks by a large margin. Never been wrong. :laugh:

Okay, too early in the morning for this.
:hm:

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-07 23:39:16

its going to be a close election between Bush and Kerry

Josh Cryer · 2004-10-08 02:21:17

Regarding the polls: DemocraticUnderground.com had set up a "poll thread" to which many hundreds of thousands of Democrats went to. There was a big hooplah about CNN resetting the Cheney vs. Edwards poll several times while this was occuring in Democratic circles (see the Daily Kos, among others). It was actually quite amusing. Though I do frown upon the practice of going to local town polls on local websites when you live nowhere near where the website is focused to, I see nothing wrong with groups organizing and hitting a national poll, so long as double hits aren't made.

Palomar · 2004-10-08 06:03:22

Regarding the polls: DemocraticUnderground.com had set up a "poll thread" to which many hundreds of thousands of Democrats went to. There was a big hooplah about CNN resetting the Cheney vs. Edwards poll several times while this was occuring in Democratic circles (see the Daily Kos, among others). It was actually quite amusing. Though I do frown upon the practice of going to local town polls on local websites when you live nowhere near where the website is focused to, I see nothing wrong with groups organizing and hitting a national poll, so long as double hits aren't made.

*I disregard polls generally; Gallup is the only pollster I pay much attention to. Will be glad when the circus is over.

By the way, is anyone else here catching the news about Democrats crashing Republican campaign headquarters? Seems there's some fight-picking, jeering, etc., going on. Heard about a university professor slugging a Bush supporter in the face on ABC Nightly News last evening. :-\ All that, coupled with the shots fired at a Repub campaign headquarters in Knoxville, TN the other day. Emotions sure are running high.

If Bush does win again, I wonder how much the reaction will escalate into further violence. :hm: Wouldn't be surprised at outright rioting. Can hear the world's media gloating and enjoying it already.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-10-08 06:19:26

If Bush does win again, I wonder how much the reaction will escalate into further violence. Wouldn't be surprised at outright rioting. Can hear the world's media gloating and enjoying it already.

Whatever happens this election, things will get worse as far as bitter divisiveness, possibly violent. Real human social norms are intruding into our insulated little world a bit more than we're comfortable with.

And yet I'm oddly optimistic about the future. :hm:

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-11-01 12:51:20

try these

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#26 2004-10-03 07:56:14

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#27 2004-10-04 19:54:19

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#28 2004-10-04 20:06:40

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#29 2004-10-05 13:37:25

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#30 2004-10-05 13:54:33

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#31 2004-10-05 14:07:23

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

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#33 2004-10-05 14:53:28

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#34 2004-10-05 15:24:59

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#35 2004-10-05 18:25:34

Re: 1st Presidential debate - who won?

#36 2004-10-05 20:54:25

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#37 2004-10-05 22:00:54

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#38 2004-10-05 23:42:44

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#39 2004-10-06 00:03:45

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#40 2004-10-06 05:46:20

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#41 2004-10-07 23:39:16

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