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Adrian

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From: London, United Kingdom

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 642

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Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

I was about to say, "Don't be ridiculous, they'll never put a space elevator in a Bond film, it's far too futuristic," when I remembered Moonraker. Man, that was a cool film. I must've been about 10 the last time I watched that, but seeing all the space shuttles zip about in orbit was a sight to behold. And of course, the laser guns were fun.

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periscopeboy

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Registered: 2002-08-27

Posts: 9

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

As I read this thread I kept thinking of the Space Elevator crash in one of the Kim Stanley Robinson books, and the destruction it caused.  Somebody (sorry, I'm too lazy to check who) wrote that most of the ribbon would burn up in the atmosphere.  Is this true?  Are they giving it proper consideration?  I don't know how realistic the description of that crash is, but I remember some major destruction, on a nuclear scale, due to the velocity the upper end of the ribbon attained on the way down.  That's a little scary.  But if it's a feasible idea, it'd be a great step forward for space exploration.

Josh Cryer

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Registered: 2001-09-29

Posts: 3,830

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

periscopeboy, KSR's elevator was cool, but unrealistic. Edwards' elevator considers the physical properties of nanotubes and the physics of such a system as a whole.

His elevator is simplier, smaller, lighter, and wouldn't impact the environment very much, if at all.

I suppose I owe clark an apology for suggesting that an elevator couldn't be built without a asteroid, but then again, I underestimated our technology, and it's still not there yet (wow, me, underestimating technology! ).

We'll just have to see where nanotubes go from here.

You can find Edwards' proposal here: http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/ … dwards.pdf

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Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Phobos

Member

Registered: 2002-01-02

Posts: 1,103

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

I was about to say, "Don't be ridiculous, they'll never put a space elevator in a Bond film, it's far too futuristic," when I remembered Moonraker. Man, that was a cool film. I must've been about 10 the last time I watched that, but seeing all the space shuttles zip about in orbit was a sight to behold. And of course, the laser guns were fun.

I remember that movie.  That's what I like about Bond movies, they always seem to center around some kind of high technology.  I think a space elevator would make a novel centerpiece technology for a James Bond movie.  The giant lasers that seemingly blast payloads up into the starry sky on the high seas could make for good special effects. 

I suppose I owe clark an apology for suggesting that an elevator couldn't be built without a asteroid, but then again, I underestimated our technology, and it's still not there yet (wow, me, underestimating technology! ).

Nothing wrong with a little healthy pessimism (God knows I could use some at times ) but I tend to get a little flustered, or rather start to grow red with rage and foam at the mouth, when I encounter people who are die hard naysayers.  I think a lot of these people who say space elevators are an impossible concept whose time will never come are in the same boatload of people who said heavier than air flying machines are impossibilities.  Hell, the only thing we really need to work on is the cable and we already have some possibilities for materials as far as that's concerned.  So I don't think the problems are insurmountable,  They're just a matter of engineering.  And that's all stuff you already know so I'm not sure why jumped on my soapbox just now.

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To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Josh Cryer

Moderator

Registered: 2001-09-29

Posts: 3,830

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Nothing wrong with a little healthy pessimism (God knows I could use some at times ) but I tend to get a little flustered, or rather start to grow red with rage and foam at the mouth, when I encounter people who are die hard naysayers.

I wasn't really die hard naysaying. I was just skeptical about elevator size and resource requirments. I mean, considering that Earth's crust is .03% carbon, one has to wonder if we would have enough to build something thousands of miles long made of the stuff. Edwards' paper convinces me we could build several of them before it became a problem, especially considering how utterly small they are. And after that point, we could easily use the elevators to facilitiate harvesting carbon from elsewhere in the solar system.

(His suggestion that we build an elevator for Mars in Earth orbit is quite interesting. Although I suspect in the long run it would be cheaper to do it from Mars, it does open up a lot of political and economicial question.)

I guess I took KSR's science fiction description too literally. Then again, every other space elevator text I read up until I read Edwards' was quite overwelming with regard to resource consumption, but unlike Edwards', they didn't incorporate carbon nanotubes, with real scientific footnotes.

Those are important. Hehe

But I know what you mean about die hard naysayers. You should probably know by now that I'm one of the most optimistic people here.

Hell, the only thing we really need to work on is the cable and we already have some possibilities for materials as far as that's concerned.

Carbon nanotubes are amazing, that's all I got to say.

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Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

PaganToris

Banned

From: Exeter,Ca

Registered: 2002-07-17

Posts: 105

Website

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Well id have to say i like the idea bout the Bond films me myslref i actualy like bond films i like the one where  well i cant remember it but i have seen some bond movies my uncle is a James bond fanatic he has all his movies and i seen the world is nont, enought i thought it was pretty cool :0 but pustting a space elevator on a BObd movie well i guess its a good idea but they dont have any real pics pf mars on hand well (human photos)
hey why dont we all start talking bouyt PLUTO its a Nice planet and we can kiuck back with the eskimos and eat fish

marlyn manson went from being a devil worshiper to a alien with breast's

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if u know what show thats from than where cool

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Phobos

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Registered: 2002-01-02

Posts: 1,103

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

I wasn't really die hard naysaying. I was just skeptical about elevator size and resource requirments. I mean, considering that Earth's crust is .03% carbon, one has to wonder if we would have enough to build something thousands of miles long made of the stuff. Edwards' paper convinces me we could build several of them before it became a problem, especially considering how utterly small they are. And after that point, we could easily use the elevators to facilitiate harvesting carbon from elsewhere in the solar system.

Sorry about the rant.  I was really directing it at some particular people who have no problem believing that aliens are zipping across the galaxy at lightspeed but scoff at the "impossible" idea of building a space elevator.  I guess if something's in the purview of known physics it must be an impossibility!  Since this is the only forum I post in I had to decompress somewhere.

Well id have to say i like the idea bout the Bond films me myslref i actualy like bond films i like the one where  well i cant remember it but i have seen some bond movies my uncle is a James bond fanatic he has all his movies and i seen the world is nont, enought i thought it was pretty cool  but pustting a space elevator on a BObd movie well i guess its a good idea but they dont have any real pics pf mars on hand well (human photos)
hey why dont we all start talking bouyt PLUTO its a Nice planet and we can kiuck back with the eskimos and eat fish

We can't have a Bond film with a space elevator until we have some better pics of Mars? Damn, there's goes my dream movie for the next twenty years. 

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To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

PaganToris

Banned

From: Exeter,Ca

Registered: 2002-07-17

Posts: 105

Website

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Now Phobos we all know that we didint mean to hurt yer feelers bout the bond movie and the space elevator
But now i thnx we all should talk about Pluto im gonna start a discussion under free chat all should reply to wghat i have to say and we all wioll crate a forum called    (New Pluto) and there will be (new Mars)
i thnx its a tramindus odea
Phobos ill cya on the flip side

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ZIGIE ZOKKIE  ZIGIE ZOKKIE OY OY OY
ZIGIE ZOKKIE  ZIGIE ZOKKIE OY OY OY
if u know what show thats from than where cool

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,946

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Space elevator contest proposed ‘Elevator:2010’ aimed
at encouraging technology development

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5792719/

Seems like every activity wants to use the contest or bake off competitive style one upmanship to get things going....

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

You can't really blame NASA for being pessimistic.  Heck, space elevators might not become feasible at all.  While I don't think it'll take 100 years to figure out if it's feasible, there's still a lot of work to be done.

Yeah, there still isn't a good way to make hundreds of tons of essentially perfect functionalized/crosslinked single walled carbon nanotube composit yet even if the material itself is strong enough.

One of the big issues that I think is overlooked is the chemistry problem... that the cable, made of Carbon and possibly clad with an ultrafine layer of Aluminum, will be soaking in the highly reactive upper atmosphere for extended periods. At the "top of the world," Ultraviolet light and cosmic rays breaks down Oxygen molecules into Atomic Oxygen and can induce a little ionization, which will eat through almost anything. Including the ribbon, cladded with metal or not.

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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,946

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

The slow but steady process of carbon nano tubes developement is progressing.

Researchers Spin Carbon Nanotubes Into Usable Fibers
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/nanotech-04zzw.html

other nano developement
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/nanotech-04zzx.html

SBird

Banned

Registered: 2004-03-10

Posts: 490

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

GCNR - I agree, the chemistry/physics of the elevator is the big stopping point here.  Honestly, I can't see CNTs lasting more than a few years in space before reactive gasses, micrometeors and radiation degrade the molecular structure to the point where it can no longer hold itself up.

The only solution I can think of is to haul a big CNT factory to the anchor and start making CNT rope continuously.  Basically, the elevator would be a continuous cenveyor belt of CNTs that are constantly being lowered to Earth and recycled there.  You'd haul carbon up to the anchor using the elevator itself.  Of course, the downside is that the CNT will be the most degraded and the weakest at the base where the stresses are greatest.  OTOH, as most failures will occur near the ground repair is easy, just wait a few days/weeks/months for the ribbon to reach the ground again.

Another problem would be that the in order for the ribbon to be turned over, say once a year, You've got to be able to churn out CNT ribbon at a rate of about 4 km/hr 24/7.  Also, any rising elevators will also have their rate of ascent (and energy usage increased) by the same speed as well.

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Excellent article, Spacenut!   :up:

    Advances in production of usable CNT materials are coming thick and fast, which is what I expected based on various things I've read over the past few years.

    I understand your reservations about the space elevator cable degrading in use, SBird, but I believe human ingenuity will find a way around that. You, yourself, have come up with an idea to circumvent wear-and-tear of the cable in your own post, though it seems like a fairly drastic solution.
    In the absence of breakthrough propulsion techniques, we're left with the prospect of riding 'Roman Candles' into space indefinitely. The space elevator promises a whole new world of transportation to space and requires no new physics along the way - it's just engineering.
    If there's one thing we humans are good at, it's gradually improving our engineering. What was impossible 50 years ago is ho-hum-routine today and the lead-time for new developments is shortening at an accelerating pace.

    Arthur C. Clarke has famously pilloried the faint-hearted for being too pessimistic about the future. Most people, when asked to predict technological advances, have erred significantly on the conservative side.

    No. I think the space elevator's time has come and I predict it will be built sooner than you think ... unless the U.S. military finds the prospect of unrestricted access to space, for everyone, too unpalatable .. for national security reasons .. !

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Euler

Member

From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Of course, the downside is that the CNT will be the most degraded and the weakest at the base where the stresses are greatest.  OTOH, as most failures will occur near the ground repair is easy, just wait a few days/weeks/months for the ribbon to reach the ground again.

No, the stresses are greatest at geosyncronous orbit.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,946

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Space elevator dry run: next stop, the Moon
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/220/1

A Lunavator can also help spawn an Earthvator and space elevators for Mars, Titan, and a bunch of other destinations. Mars elevator only takes one-third as much mass, the lunar elevator would require only about one-sixth as much mass and three-quarters as much length as an Earth-to-space elevator. What that means is a lunar elevator would not have to have as strong a cable as the Earthvator.

Euler

Member

From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Shouldn't the moon elevator actually be longer than an Earth elevator?

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,946

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Depends on the form it takes, for one can be a vehicle launcher while the other is a connector of two points.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

A lunavator is actually more difficult to do than a Earthvator or Marsvator...

Because it's not spinning, for starters, so cable must be *very* long.

Surprize, surprize, simplest place to try one would be Mars....

Euler

Member

From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

A lunavator is actually more difficult to do than a Earthvator or Marsvator...

Because it's not spinning, for starters, so cable must be *very* long.

The easiest way would be to build the lunavator to L1.  That should make it about 70% longer than the Earth elevator.  The tensile strength required is still less than is required for the Earth elevator though.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,946

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

Another must for space elevators is for power.

Nanotechnology Leads To Discovery Of Super Superconductors
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-04zzh.html

University of Cambridge have demonstrated a simple and industrially scaleable method for improving the current densities of superconducting coated conductors in magnetic field environments.

Shaun Barrett

Member

From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Space Elevator gets more funding

I love it!
    Materials science is moving forward faster every day and will one day give us that 'technology indistinguishable from magic' hinted at by Sir Arthur C. Clarke.

    Our "future's so bright, I gotta wear shades"!!   :laugh:   

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The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner