Please Sign & Send this Letter! - A Nigerian woman will be stoned to death

Palomar · 2002-08-20 09:01:14

*I found this at the Yahoo! message board, relative to the story of a Nigerian woman named Amina, who had a child out of wedlock, was sentenced to be stoned to death according to Islam law in Nigeria, had the sentence appealed, and has now [as of today] LOST the appeal and will be stoned to death. Please click the 2nd link provided below, read the document, sign and send it!! If we can't stop this woman being murdered for having a baby, we can at least protest it. A woman from Egypt provided the message and links below.

--Thanks, Cindy

GO SEE THE STONING VIDEO AT http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/stoning-t1.ram AND SIGN THE PETITION TO HELP HER INSTEAD OF JUST SHOOTING WORDS AND FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES.
http://www.mertonai.org/amina/OpenLetter.htm
http://www.mertonai.org/amina/

Adrian · 2002-08-20 10:21:18

I was initially going to say that I never thought online petitions/letter writing was a good thing, but then I remembered seeing on the news last night that a Nigerian woman in exactly the same situation had her life saved due to international outcry, so this could work.

Phobos · 2002-08-20 21:31:13

Good grief, how long is it going to take to expunge this kind of barbarism from the face of the planet? Hopefully the outcry will get the attention of people who have the resources to relocate her somewhere safer. I remember reading an article awhile back at the National Geographic website about certain countries where it's permissible to murder a woman if she puts one's "honor" at stake. The world definately has a long way to go before it grows up.

Palomar · 2002-08-21 09:26:08

Good grief, how long is it going to take to expunge this kind of barbarism from the face of the planet? Hopefully the outcry will get the attention of people who have the resources to relocate her somewhere safer. I remember reading an article awhile back at the National Geographic website about certain countries where it's permissible to murder a woman if she puts one's "honor" at stake. The world definately has a long way to go before it grows up.

*Yes. I recall seeing on TV a few years ago, some African tribe which makes a female member pay for a crime or wrong-doing committed by a male relative. One poor young woman was made to be a slave in an adjoining village as part of the "punishment"; apparently this tribe is spread out, or is interrelated to another one. She was crying and sobbing the entire length of the short trip to the village.

Recently, in Afghanistan, a council of tribal elders in some remote [rural] part of the country decreed that a young woman would be gang raped because her brother had committed a social infraction.

It's heinous, disgusting, and just plain unfair.

I'm glad I live in a society which doesn't consider me just an expendable baby machine.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-08-21 13:11:08

So the question I ask to the Cultural imperialists, would you support an invasion of the US by other countries if they disagreed with our system of punishment for people who break our laws?

Maybe it is a case by case basis. So here is one, death penalty for juvenilles and the mentally disabled.

Here we have a class of people who have no say in the laws that govern them, or the punishments associated with the breaking of those laws. It is in effect the same thing that is happening in Nigeria or Afghanistan.

The practice exsists in the US of A.

Those who live in glass houses...

???

Palomar · 2002-08-21 14:27:03

Do we in the West have any choices other than averting our eyes -or- undertaking to "westernize" the entire world? I hope we do, but I am not sure what such a 3rd choice would be.
Not that the West is perfect, but as an admittedly biased observer, I do prefer the West to the other available options.

*Thanks for signing the letter, Bill.

As for Clark:

Actually, I don't see this as a "West vs Islam cultural" thing.
It's a matter of humanness and fairness. Where is the man who got this woman pregnant? Why isn't he being sought out and held responsible for impregnating her? What if she was raped? How is depriving the baby of its mother helping their society, when now someone else will have to assume the burden of raising and caring for the child?

The only thing I'm asking is that men -- wherever on the globe they live -- expect/demand no more of women than they expect/demand of themselves, and that no harsher punishment be meted out to women than the men would have applied to themselves.

It's an issue of humanness and fairness, period.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-08-21 17:00:03

So the question I ask to the Cultural imperialists, would you support an invasion of the US by other countries if they disagreed with our system of punishment for people who break our laws?

*How ridiculous! Nobody is asking that the government of Nigeria be assaulted or threatened if they don't respond to this letter campaign.

All we can do is sign the letter and send it, REQUESTING that they reconsider -- NONVIOLENT protest. The Nigerian gov't can ignore it, can hit the "delete" button for all these letters which will come into their e-mail system without reading them, etc., etc. They probably will anyway. However, that won't stop me from letting my opinion be made known and heard.

Of course, Clark, maybe the remainder of the West [Allies] shouldn't have played the part of "cultural imperialists" to the Nazis during World War II! :angry:

"The only thing evil needs to perpetuate itself is for good people to say nothing." I don't know who said that, but it's true. This woman is going to be murdered for {{gasp!!}} having a baby. Was she raped? They don't care. Where's the guy who got her pregnant, why isn't he having to take 1/2 the blame and responsibility here? They don't care.

Well f*ck it. Call me a cultural imperialist or whatever you want, I don't give a damn. This woman, IMO, does NOT deserve to die.

I bet YOU would want the "cultural imperialists" to come to YOUR aid if you were about to be shoved into an oven by Nazis or about to be stoned to death by your gov't for breaking one of their rules.

Muslims of the sort who have decreed that this woman should die, i.e. imposing their will upon her, have no hesitation whatsoever about FORCING their beliefs onto others and punishing them severely when they don't comply with the rules or make a mistake. I live in a nation where women have some of the greatest freedom and liberty ever known in human history! Do you think I'm going to sit idly by and keep quiet while another woman is dealt with this way? When these same Muslims would rip my clitoris out, kill me if I wanted birth control, kill me if I raise my hands in self-protection while my husband beats me [and I have no recourse to get out of such an abusive marriage, and it's "his right" to beat me if displease him in any way], on and on...do you think I'm going to feel "bad" or "guilty" or like a "cultural imperialist" for signing a letter to the Nigerian gov't simply ASKING that they not kill this woman, when they subject their people, and their religion subjects women, to all sorts of abuses and outrages? Nope, not at all.

The USA treats its women better than the Nigerians do. That's proof enough, for me, that my culture IS superior to theirs. And I want to let them know it.

--Cindy
"Cultural Imperialist!!"

Shaun Barrett · 2002-08-21 18:11:49

GO CINDY !!

I've said it before and I'll say it again .... I like your style!

P.S. For the record, I signed the petition also. I don't see why
the female should be singled out for punishment. It takes
two to tango.

Phobos · 2002-08-21 21:50:05

So the question I ask to the Cultural imperialists, would you support an invasion of the US by other countries if they disagreed with our system of punishment for people who break our laws?
Maybe it is a case by case basis. So here is one, death penalty for juvenilles and the mentally disabled.
Here we have a class of people who have no say in the laws that govern them, or the punishments associated with the breaking of those laws. It is in effect the same thing that is happening in Nigeria or Afghanistan.
The practice exsists in the US of A.

Sheesh Clark, are we going to have to write 50 page essays everytime we state our opinions to cover every nuance of world politics? We merely don't think it's right to kill this woman and I think giving women equal status in society is a basic human rights issue regardless of culture. If that statement makes me some kind of cultural chauvinist so be it. Anyways, you seem to be hot to think it's ok to shove authoritarian power down our throats. If that's not a form of imperialism I don't know what is. So maybe we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black here.

Those who live in glass houses...

Yes, you are just so much more enlightened than the rest of us.

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-21 22:59:29

I signed it. I have no other comments.

Bill White · 2002-08-22 11:04:39

I retract my other comments and adopt the position taken by Josh. The obvious sensibility of his position cannot be bettered.

clark · 2002-08-22 17:24:49

The USA treats its women better than the Nigerians do. That's proof enough, for me, that my culture IS superior to theirs. And I want to let them know it.

I will not contest this point, and my previous post was in no way condoning the practice being perpetuated in Nigera. Nor was my post an attempt to somehow tarnish an otherwise noble effort on the part of some concerned humans.

You have your values and you like them, more power to you.

My question, which was a question, was to address an obvious disparity in effort and attention that seems to habve been missed by all, save Bill.

I pointed out an American practice that is similar to the Nigerian practice. You bandy about with a petition for ONE woman in a far off land- I'm sure she would apopreciate your efforts- yet your apparent disregard for my question- the issue of the death penalty applied to minors and the mentaly disabled in this country disturbs me.

Here you are, a free woman in a free land- all of us living here in America, and we tolerate these reprehensible actions. Our silence makes everyone one of us complicit in the murders that occur at the hands of the state in this country.

I don't want a repressive regime Phobos, quite the contrary- however, I believe repression- or what we would consider to be repression is the only outcome for space colonizatiion. I don't like it, and I hope someone can show me how I am mistaken. As of yet, no one has, and that is why I would never go to mars or any other place- I cherish my freedoms, which would be denied by neccessity in space.

The fact of the matter is, I responded to Bill's statment- it seemed he supported physical intervention. I have no problem with that, however I see it for what it is- precedent.

If you establish that WE can enforce our values on another people, then you accept that others may do the same thing to US.

That's why I asked if he would support an invasion of the US on the grounds of the death penalty being applied to minors and the mentally disabled.

Much of the world feels it is "unenlightened" to execute people- yet we here in America show few qualms with the act.

That is what i am trying to point out. We have no moral superiority, and those whio claim it are in my opinion, full of s*it.

But what the hell do I know, right?

Palomar · 2002-08-22 22:52:31

Clark: I pointed out an American practice that is similar to the Nigerian practice.

*Really? Gosh, I can't recall the last time I signed a petition for a person NOT to be stoned to death here in the USA because of a RELIGIOUS law.

You bandy about with a petition for ONE woman in a far off land- I'm sure she would apopreciate your efforts- yet your apparent disregard for my question- the issue of the death penalty applied to minors and the mentaly disabled in this country disturbs me.

*So do something about it. Dragging these matters into a post originally having ONLY to do with Amina and her situation is pointless. Write your congressmen, write your senators -- interjecting these issues into a thread which is only intended to do with a woman in Nigeria -- and talking to us about it --doesn't help the minors and mentally disabled who face capital punishment, now does it? No.

Clark: Here you are, a free woman in a free land- all of us living here in America, and we tolerate these reprehensible actions.

*You don't know that I tolerate capital punishment for juveniles and the mentally disabled. As a matter of fact, I don't.

Clark: Our silence makes everyone one of us complicit in the murders that occur at the hands of the state in this country.

*You like collectivist comments, don't you? How do you know what I am or am not silent about? You don't know me, what activism I engage in, etc.

Clark: I don't want a repressive regime Phobos, quite the contrary- however, I believe repression- or what we would consider to be repression is the only outcome for space colonizatiion.

*Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Clark: That is what i am trying to point out. We have no moral superiority,

*According to you and deconstructionism, no one has moral superior or moral inferiority -- everything's equal. I disagree. Name the last time you heard, in the USA, of a woman being sentenced to death by stoning for having a child out of wedlock, because of religious law [we have no religious law in this nation, thankfully!]. Of course, the Nigerians would tell us this woman had a "trial by law"...which, I'm sure, was as equitable and fair a trial as a black person would get by a jury of Ku Klux Klansmen.

Clark: and those whio claim it are in my opinion, full of s*it.

*You're entitled to your opinion. Should we NOT petition the Nigerian gov't to reverse the sentence and let Amina live because the USA isn't perfect?

You can think I'm full of sh*t if you want. To be really frank, I think the person who insists all things are equal, that there is no one thing better or worse than anything else in the world, is an utter fool living in some dream-land.

Enough said.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2002-08-23 10:19:26

Cindy - as you know I signed the petition.

clark can be confrontational - yet some of what he is saying is what I posted first - a point best made the recognizing the fact that under Nigeria's constitution the President and the Nigerian national authorities *cannot* lawfully overturn the decision to stone the woman to death.

The Nigerian President and most in the national government are horrified at the sentence and are pleading with the Islamic judges to reverse the decision.

Changing Nigeria's constitution may well be the just thing to do but that will require more than writing letters.

And, precisely who are we writing the letter to? The Nigerian President? He is already on our side on this issue and he has more personally at stake than we do. The Muslim judges? Their *goal* is to enrage and horrify us - they intentionally wish to horrify and enrage the West.

In the Phillipines, Muslims terrorists recently beheaded 2 Christian missionaries. Why? To horrify the West and help provoke a West -vs- Islam World War III.

bin Laden launched 11 September *because* he is seeking WW3 between the West and Islam. That is his goal. We do not want WW3, West vs Islam, but the radical Muslims do want precisely that.

The judges who condemned the woman to death by stoning are seeking to win an ongoing civil war with Nigeria's Christians. Under Nigerian law, the verdict is legal.

If the Muslim clerics refuse to reverse their decision, I am not opposed to taking the matter further, yet I must recognize that doing so has serious political consequences - precedent to use clark's word. On that point he is 100% correct.

And, I stand in shards of glass as I say it.

Palomar · 2002-08-23 13:24:05

Cindy - as you know I signed the petition.
clark can be confrontational - yet some of what he is saying is what I posted first - a point best made the recognizing the fact that under Nigeria's constitution the President and the Nigerian national authorities *cannot* lawfully overturn the decision to stone the woman to death.
The Nigerian President and most in the national government are horrified at the sentence and are pleading with the Islamic judges to reverse the decision.
Changing Nigeria's constitution may well be the just thing to do but that will require more than writing letters.
And, precisely who are we writing the letter to? The Nigerian President? He is already on our side on this issue and he has more personally at stake than we do. The Muslim judges? Their *goal* is to enrage and horrify us - they intentionally wish to horrify and enrage the West.
In the Phillipines, Muslims terrorists recently beheaded 2 Christian missionaries. Why? To horrify the West and help provoke a West -vs- Islam World War III.
bin Laden launched 11 September *because* he is seeking WW3 between the West and Islam. That is his goal. We do not want WW3, West vs Islam, but the radical Muslims do want precisely that.
The judges who condemned the woman to death by stoning are seeking to win an ongoing civil war with Nigeria's Christians. Under Nigerian law, the verdict is legal.
If the Muslim clerics refuse to reverse their decision, I am not opposed to taking the matter further, yet I must recognize that doing so has serious political consequences - precedent to use clark's word. On that point he is 100% correct.
And, I stand in shards of glass as I say it.

*Bill: Sorry, I disagree [and thanks again for signing the letter -- and to everyone else who did as well].

The ONLY purpose of my creating this thread was to encourage others to sign a simple letter to the Nigerian government. Simple.

Clark comes in and, like usual, makes a big debate over something I thought was relatively simple to understand. People can either sign and send the letter or not.

It strikes me as REALLY strange that we're always finding Clark on the other side of the issue. He can't see the difference between Josef Mengele intentionally and deliberately allowing an infant to starve to death as part of some medical experiment versus a loving and nuturing mother tending to her baby's cries of hunger...he says he doesn't want a repressive regime on Mars, but that's ALL he promotes -- including having infants forcibly taken away from a couple who otherwise might be very conscientious and mindful of the rules, yet the unexpected can always occur...and he has promoted a colony being deprived of water, air, electricity, etc., if they fail to comply with rules. All of these are draconian measures, pure and simple. Yet he has a "problem" with my simply requesting people read and sign a letter and letting our voices be heard, to prevent a woman being stoned to death for having a baby.

What's wrong with this picture?

Then he drags into this thread the American justice system, which occasionally YES is one of injustice -- no one ever said the American justice system is perfect; however, my initial post had NOTHING to do with the American judicial system. And as I pointed out, must the USA be absolutely 100% infalliably perfect before we can "dare" to protest and let another nation know we think something they're doing is wrong? I don't think so! :angry: By this same idiotic "logic," I shouldn't write ANY of my congressmen or senators, because not all of them are absolutely pure, godly saints. If "perfection or don't you dare criticize" is the standard, I guess we'd all better chop off our fingers and sew our mouths shut!

I don't know if Clark is confused or if he simply likes to play Devil's Advocate/trouble-maker to try and push buttons and play games; I don't know him personally, so can't tell. I just know what my gut instinct tells me, and it's NOT favorable to Clark.

As for my being "full of sh*t," according to Clark -- well, that's a very interesting comment for a deconstructionalist to make. If, as Clark argues, everything is equal, i.e. NOTHING is better or worse, superior or inferior to anything else, how can I or anyone else POSSIBLY be "full of sh*t" regarding opinions and viewpoints? This is illogical. If you don't believe in standards and values, you CANNOT make statements promoting a standard or a value judgment. Illogical.

Frankly, since he does think I'm "full of sh*t" he needn't bother trying to interact with me or ask me questions here; since I'm "full of sh*t" according to him, I don't know why he'd bother.

And let's see if he doesn't come back in a reconciliatory-type of manner, along the lines of "somehow you misunderstand me." Yeah, right.

The initial post wasn't about USA Green Berets parachuting into Nigeria and mowing down with machine guns the Muslims who have made this sentence against Amina; it's not about trying to change the Nigerian constitution; it's not about "cultural imperialism" [I dare say the Muslims will just throw the Inquisition and Crusades back up in the face of the West]; this isn't about the death penalty in the USA -- it is about one woman named Amina who is going to be murdered for having a baby.

As for this being an attempt by Muslims to outrage the West, like in the case of missionaries in the Philippines being executed -- I disagree. Islam has a long DOCUMENTED history of treating women like dirt. If the USA didn't exist and this were 1000 years ago, she'd have been dead by now. It's a matter of simple religion-related sexist oppression and abuse.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-08-23 14:49:12

Clark comes in and, like usual, makes a big debate over something I thought was relatively simple to understand.

Quite the contrary. I replied to a post Bill made- I was not making a big debate, I was making a comment. You on the other hand seem to have some chip on your shoulder towards me and have created this debate, not I.

Please find where I questioned the legitmacy of signing the petition? If you actually read my second post, you might notice the high regard I hold this attempt. My first post, which was again addressed specifically towards Bill was to point out a similar practice to the Nigerian one that occurs in America.

I was not trying to detract from what you are doing Cindy, I was trying to point out a similar injustice that occurs in our own backyards.

It strikes me as REALLY strange that we're always finding Clark on the other side of the issue.

So I should agree always? I am usually on the other side of the issues becuase my views are operating under different assumptions than other people. I think I have proven the legitmacy of many of my concerns, that is evidenced by those who have agreed to the validity of my points.

He can't see the difference between Josef Mengele intentionally and deliberately allowing an infant to starve to death as part of some medical experiment versus a loving and nuturing mother tending to her baby's cries of hunger...

That's just wrong. I can see the difference, i have admitted the difference. However, I see my views of the difference for what they are- arbitrary and subjective. I accept that my views- that my stating that Menglee is a monster and the mother a saint as just my point of view. It dosen't make it right in and of itself. In other words, I have my views, I have my opinion, and I can make it known- but it dosen't make it right and it dosen't mean I should expect others to think the same way. I leave open the possibility that my values may be wrong, therefore I can't say they are "right". But maybe you can, I'm just not that arrogant.

he says he doesn't want a repressive regime on Mars, but that's ALL he promotes

How do I promote a repressive regime if all i am doing is coming to the logical conclusion of the facts as I see them? Darwin explained evolution, but rejected the implications. when i first started here, everyone had the same romantic libertarian view of Mars colonization- I questioned it, and I believe my questions have merit- my conclusions have merit. i don't like where my reasoning leads, but the reasning is sound. if I'm so whacked and off base, why can't you or others simply point out the fundamnetal errors that I am making?

including having infants forcibly taken away from a couple who otherwise might be very conscientious and mindful of the rules, yet the unexpected can always occur

And I offered solutions to deal with these eventualities. The same situation- taking children from families exsists in the USA, and the act is done for good reasons most times. However, it dosen't mean I support doing this in all instances for the slightest reason.

and he has promoted a colony being deprived of water, air, electricity, etc., if they fail to comply with rules.

It's no different than now- we threaten whole countries with nuclear annalihation if they don't follow the rules- I constantly refer to american examples becuase I am trying to show people what kind of world we live in now. I'm stripping away the justification and ratioale by demonstrating in stark terms a martian example.

Yet he has a "problem" with my simply requesting people read and sign a letter and letting our voices be heard, to prevent a woman being stoned to death for having a baby.

I don't have a problem with that, in fact I complemented you, which confuses me now considering your hostile attitude. However, it concerns me that you worry about this woman without an apparent thought to what occurs here- considering you have an many times more influence and control here than there.

Then he drags into this thread the American justice system, which occasionally YES is one of injustice -- no one ever said the American justice system is perfect; however, my initial post had NOTHING to do with the American judicial system.

And my post was directed towards Bill and his apparent support of physical intervention> It establishes that it is okay for others to force their values on others who may not want them. You say you fall back on the principle of "would I want this done to me" and that is what i am asking. I pointed out an example to be more specfic becuase I have been accused of being vague and playing games and now I try to rectify that and you yell at me! :0

If "perfection or don't you dare criticize" is the standard, I guess we'd all better chop off our fingers and sew our mouths shut!

No, thats not it. it's hypocrisy that is the problem. It is hypocritical to chastze a people or a country for an action that we do ourselves. I pointed to the murder of juvenilles at the hand of the state as an example.

I just know what my gut instinct tells me, and it's NOT favorable to Clark.

All this emotion over me? You flatter me. A woman in new mexico has an unfavorable feeling of me based on the posts left on a message board relating to the colonization of mars...
:0

As for my being "full of sh*t," according to Clark -- well, that's a very interesting comment for a deconstructionalist to make.

Well, if you feel comfortable labeling me a certain philosphical stance, I hope it helps. I on the other hand will not pigeon hole myself or my thinking to one limited philosphy. Maybe the "enlightenment" works for you, but I've found a certain enrichment from not limiting myself. I told you before, I think for myself- deconstructionism offers a different perspective- it is not the answer. Philosphy is a means to an end, not the end itself.

And for the record, i didn't say you were full of anything... however you assumed that that comment was directed at you- why did you take it so personaly? Where did I say "Cindy is full..."? I didn't.

If you don't believe in standards and values, you CANNOT make statements promoting a standard or a value judgment. Illogical.

No, I do believe in standards and values, I have repeated that more times than i really wish I has to. However, I don't believe any values or standards can truly be any better than any others- they are ultimelty equal- the value being derived by the individuals- that does not negate my ability from having values with which to understand the world.

And let's see if he doesn't come back in a reconciliatory-type of manner, along the lines of "somehow you misunderstand me." Yeah, right.

No, no reconciliation is neccessary. I have nothing to apoligize for or to anyone in particular, least of all you Cindy.

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Re: Please Sign & Send this Letter! - A Nigerian woman will be stoned to death

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