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#26 2004-06-17 10:17:00
- BWhite
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- From: Chicago, Illinois
- Registered: 2004-06-16
- Posts: 2,635
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Experience? The Apollo people are all retired.
Earth to LEO expertise? Zenit has crushed Delta & Atlas in the commerical launch field. Those boosters remain viable only because of US subsidies legitimately paid for national security reasons.
Space tugs? Orbital Recovery is a Dutch company IIRC.
Ion propulsion? SMART and Deep Space One are about tied, right?
Nuclear propulsion? JIMO is too small to be man-rated, is 10 years or more away, and may well need shuttle B/C to get launched.
Nuclear thermal? Are we ahead of the Russians on that? Really ahead?
= = =
Russians flying tourists? That is escaping from a single payor funding source.
Unless money flows into space from private sources, there are no private space ventures. Private contractors selling to the government as the sole customer isn't privatization.
Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]
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#27 2004-06-17 10:27:47
- clark
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- Registered: 2001-09-20
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Experience? The Apollo people are all retired.
So were a lot of CIA experts on Afghanistan. Things can change. It dosen't really matter though, since this will act as a catalysts for a new generation of aerospace engineer's.
The data is there, the material science is there, the systems integration experience is there. Buzz and Amrstrong are still alive and kicking, so there will be opportunities to pass some of their experierience on to the new generation of Lunar-nauts. 
Earth to LEO expertise? Zenit has crushed Delta & Atlas in the commerical launch field. Those boosters remain viable only because of US subsidies legitimately paid for antional security reasons.
Zenit may have crushed us commercialy, and yeah, EELV is a make works program, but so what? It costs a few million more for US launches. Stimulating demand of US launch should cause greater interest in the alt space and the current providers to compete for the NASA launches. That allows for some new approaches to bring the costs down.
The regulatory hurdles can be quite steep when a US high tech wants to go over seas. Sometimes, with that in mind, it is cheaper and easier to fly american.
Nuclear propulsion? JIMO is too small to be man-rated, is 10 years or more away, and may well need shuttle B/C to get launched.
CEV is ten years away too...
We probably will get a SDV of some type. Unless the Aerospace corps (who happen to make money off of the Shuttle now) say they want to do it themselves.
Nuclear thermal? Are we ahead of the Russians on that? Really ahead?
Well, we don't need to fly civilians to make ends meet at NASA. I think that kind of puts ahead. Really ahead.
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#28 2004-06-17 10:30:51
- BWhite
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- From: Chicago, Illinois
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Well, we don't need to fly civilians to make ends meet at NASA. I think that kind of puts ahead. Really ahead.
Perhaps. Or it puts us at the mercy of the politicians and the voters.
If the Russian space program is successfully subsidized by tourists and industry, it is self supporting and doesn't need tax revenue.
Sometimes having too much money can be an obstacle to creative innovation.
Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]
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#29 2004-06-17 10:34:02
- clark
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Sometimes having too much money can be an obstacle to creative innovation.
I shall meet your foil! aha-ha!
What about the push related to the Centenial Challenges? Talk of Moon shots and such? You tellin me that isn't helping innovation?
Making the NASA centers more like JPL? Getting rid of the old guard in NASA?
Great days are ahead friends, great days.
The one eyed man told me, and he hasn't been wrong yet. :laugh:
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#30 2004-06-17 10:40:39
- BWhite
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- From: Chicago, Illinois
- Registered: 2004-06-16
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Offer a prize for a sustained lunar base. Okay, it is a great idea.
Boeing & Bechtel team up and acquire a Zenit assembly line as a wholly owned subsidiary. Then they win the prize.
Do you see any problem?
Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]
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#31 2004-06-17 10:44:04
- clark
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- Registered: 2001-09-20
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
1 Billion for a sustained lunar base. Think about it.
Or, think about this: Why do people spend 40 million dollars to win a 10 million dollar prize? (X-prize)
Why would Boeing and Betchel spend the time and money, and in the process, aquire Zenit, for a 1 billion dollar prize?
Because they can make even more money later. The rpozes are like Viagra for space, and aerospace is a bit limp right now.
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#32 2004-06-17 11:09:43
- Bill White
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- Registered: 2001-09-09
- Posts: 2,114
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Lets not get all turned around here.
I support the Aldridge Commission's Report. Including prizes. And this:
The Moon is a "steppingstone" for Mars; and
Heavy lift is essential to accomplishing the vision.
Page 29 has a picture of shuttle C. SDV is not an afterthought or a political concession. It is necessary to carry out the vision.
Why? Because "EELV only" doesn't give us any capabilities the Russians don't already have. The Russians cannot match the throw weight of a genuine SDV.
SDV allows mission architectures the Russians and Europeans can only drool over.
EELV allows mission architectures the ESA/RSA can duplicate for a lower price.
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#33 2004-06-17 11:33:35
- clark
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
okay.
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#34 2004-06-17 11:39:32
- Bill White
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- Registered: 2001-09-09
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Whew!
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#35 2004-06-17 11:52:39
- clark
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
:laugh:
Oh, I'm not that bad.
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#36 2004-06-17 12:02:38
- GCNRevenger
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- From: Earth
- Registered: 2003-10-14
- Posts: 6,056
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Two or three things...
1: Nuclear power. Actually yes, we are way ahead of the Russians in this department. It would take some doing, but restarting Timberwind (1990s) or NERVA (1970s) would be easier for us than it would be for the Russians, and the Russians have no experience with dynamic (turbine/generator) space reactors, while we have a 30kWt unit not far from fueled core testing right now today this minute. The size of NTR engines needed isn't that big either, three or four small 15,000lbs engines weighing well under a ton each is all thats needed.
2: All this talk of "ESA/RSA can do it cheaper with RSA boosters" and quoting of dollar signs... The actual dollar value is completly irrelivent, only the cost relative to what you are willing or able to pay is. The Zenit and Proton launchers are cheaper, but are they any more affordable than EELV compared to RSA/ESA.
3: The Russians don't have a heavy launch vehicle, and they aren't going to ever at this rate. The Energia program is essentially long-gone, while we could do a 80-90MT Shuttle-C without a huge amount of trouble right now. It would take years and millions for the Russians to make any kind of heavy launcher.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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#37 2004-06-17 19:55:00
- Josh Cryer
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- Registered: 2001-09-29
- Posts: 3,830
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Honestly though... it doesn't feel like anything more than talk. I like the "make everything like JPL" idea, but where is the bit making this actually happen?
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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#38 2004-06-18 08:53:26
- clark
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- Registered: 2001-09-20
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
White House and NASA Administrator acceptance of the proposal. Congressional approval by the Science committee of the report, and then the budget being passed for NASA.
There will be some horse trading in here, but it will pass.
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#39 2004-06-18 11:16:04
- Josh Cryer
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- Registered: 2001-09-29
- Posts: 3,830
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
What is "it"? 
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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#40 2004-06-18 11:20:42
- clark
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- Registered: 2001-09-20
- Posts: 6,375
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
my bet. 
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#41 2004-06-18 14:03:35
- Josh Cryer
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- Registered: 2001-09-29
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Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
Uh huh. Good luck winning the bet on talk. I wanna see things actually being done, not the reinstation of the Shuttle only to retire it after a few more flights, etc.
Only thing of substance is the "make everything like JPL" bit.
As it looks now I will be a very old man before we get past Earth orbit.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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#42 2004-06-18 15:05:28
- clark
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- Registered: 2001-09-20
- Posts: 6,375
Re: Aldridge Commission - transcripts online.
The bet, if I recall, was for Mars, and money for Mars.
NASA get's it's money, and validation of Plan Bush, and I win.
Being an old man is merely a frame of mind.
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