Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

Gennaro · 2004-03-26 19:06:31

A thing I'd like to know. If you could warm Titan's atmosphere, say with a gigantic mirror, the probably predominant ice crust would melt and you'd get a water world. Some water vapour and CO2 dry ice would also be released and I gather work as further greenhouse gasses next to CH4.

But what would happen to the nitrogen/hydrocarbon atmosphere if it warmed up? Would the methane atmosphere remain stable?
The reason Earth obviously did not have an early CH4 atmosphere after all, is because it's too close to the Sun and such would have been lost due to photodissociation which is prevalent in the inner solar system.
But what drives photodissociation is not heat but UV-radiation, not at all that strong at Saturn's distance from the Sun.

Would Titan's CH4 atmosphere react in any way with the new compounds released or because of rising temperature or would the CH4 just stay, only a little saturated with water vapour?

Gennaro · 2004-03-27 08:08:26

If you want to further the terraforming process, you could in principle probably use aerobic methane oxidising bacteria to oxidise CH4 into CO2 but that requires oxygen. There's a lot of H2O but how to get free oxygen?

Palomar · 2004-03-27 10:08:20

*Hi Gennaro. I wish I could contribute more at this point than to say Titan also is theorized (?) to have ethane (along with methane).

What I know about chemistry is comparable to my math skills (er...um....???!!!) :laugh:

Maybe I should do some Googling; I hear it's good for the "soul." :;):

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2004-03-27 10:43:31

Well you tell me! I used to be embarrisingly neglective about natural science and math in school, definitely a liberal arts student type. Seems I've almost come around 180 degrees.
:;):

As I've understood it, methane is only one of a host of hydrocarbons floating around in Titan's atmosphere. So in addition to methane (CH4) there is ethane (C2H6) and I wouldn't know but perhaps propane (C3H8) and even buthane (C4H10) in addition to cyclical hydrocarbon combinations.

So when people say Titan has a nitrogen/methane atmosphere they are simplifying. The break-up of major constituents is something like this: 90% nitrogen (N2), 6% methane (CH4) and 4% Argon (Ar), a noble gas.

The large fraction of nitrogen is typical of normal atmospheres, even if they go under the name "oxygen atmosphere", like on Earth.

Palomar · 2004-03-27 12:51:39

[http://www.nineplanets.org/titan.html]Titan resource

*Says Titan has no magnetic field. Also says it is exposed to the solar wind (because it is also sometimes outside of Saturn's magnetosphere).

I looked up this page (have read it before; needed a refresh of information) because I can't recall estimates as to how thick Titan's cloud cover is, and how much rock it possesses; the article says "Titan is about half water ice and half rocky material. It is probably differentiated into several layers with a 3400 km rocky center." (I presume that means *diameter*).

The article admits its current knowledge limits (another thing I love about science).

I'm not sure how much this will contribute to the thread, but my mind is going into hyperdrive and I thought I'd add it... :laugh:

--Cindy

kippy · 2004-03-27 17:34:17

I'm going on the info I found here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(moon)]Titan

I think the two biggest problems with Titan are the lack of magnetosphere and the cold. It gets some protection from Saturn's magnetosphere but that comes and goes. Perhaps an electromagnetic shield to fake one and keep out the solar wind.

Giant mirrors will probably only get you so far way out there as far as heat. You'd probably need to dump a lot of PFCs into the atmosphere to make some kind of ultra-greenhouse effect possible. CO2 would be needed for any plant life but I don't think it would be needed in any higher concentrations than on earth since it's comparatively weak as a greenhouse gas.

I'm not quite sure how it maintains such a thick atmosphere with no magnetosphere and such weak gravity. Those 1.5 bars of nitrogen certainly are sexy though. The info I saw said that there should be a lot of water ice so that should take care of the O2 for the air depending on how much there is. They'll still need to melt it and crack it. Zubrin points out that there should be lots of He3 on Titan on in Saturn so maybe that could be the energy and heat source they need.

Kim Stanley Robinson suggested flying fusion reactors in the gas giants blasting out their heat to the moons. He called them gas lanterns. I don't know if I like that too much since it depends on hardware and a finite fuel source. He also mentioned lasering out energy from solar collectors on Mercury. If some big focusing lens can collect say 5000km of sunlight and blast it out toward Titan from a focal point of a few meters, it might reach the planet without loosing much to dispersion along the way.

The day length is going to be all crazy since it's going to be a combo of it's own day and it's orbital period around Saturn. That might just be something they'll have to get used to.

SBird · 2004-03-28 14:12:59

I think that Titan is much ore practical in terms of terraforming than Venus. :;):

It's always easier to deal with too cold than too hot. Of course, the big problem is that you are only getting about 1% of the sunlight that we see here on Earth. I doubt that we can ever get shirt sleeve conditions with any existing tech but iot could be made more hospitable. For one thing, we could import O2 or crack it from the rocks below and burn some of those hydrocarbon seas to get CO2 into the atmosphere. With some CFCs, you could probably bring the surface temperature up some tens of degrees. Orbital mirros would help but not enough to get a meaningful change in temp - sunlight at that distance is just too small. The best bet would be to generate heat on the surface. If there's He3, fusion generators could dump massive amounts of waste heat into the enviroment. Also, you could set up huge rotating tether systems to generate electrical power in the Saturn magnetic field. The result would be ample power to power light sources or other means to send power to Titan.

kippy · 2004-03-29 08:05:40

I think that Titan is much ore practical in terms of terraforming than Venus.
It's always easier to deal with too cold than too hot.

I don't know about that. I'd much want more energy than I knew what to do with than as little as it reaching Titan. With a hot world, all you have to do is put up a sun shade and wait a few years. If you assume that we'll have the tech for massive mirrors, it follows that we'll have sun shades. I'm willing to bet that the time to drop a temperature is a lot less than the time to raise one.

Even if they get fusion working, the He3 is still going to be finite so once they run out of that, Titan will be a dead world. It may be a thousand years but it's still got an expiration date.

I like the idea of a tether motor in Saturn's magnetosphere. Is it strong enough to produce any meaningful amount of power?

I also like the idea of cracking the O2 out of the rocks for breathing and burning to make C02. That's going to take a lot of energy though. Remember that they're rocks.

Ultimately, if Titan is going to be terraformed in any sense of the word, at least portions of it will need to be above the freezing point of water. That's necessary for agriculture as we know it. Anything else would just amount to living in habs and farming in greenhouses. You don't need to go to the trouble of terraforming to do that.

SBird · 2004-03-29 11:52:04

I should clarify - by easier to deal with hot than cold, I mean large extremes. It's much easier for humans to survive on a partially terraformed Titan at -70C than for them to survive on a partially terraformed Venus at 300C. When its cold, you can just put on a jacket, so to speak. Trying to deal with excess heat is very difficult.

I doubt that Titan will ever have liquid water on it and there would be no reason to try - it a big oil spill anyway. Trying to make the open surface of Titan livable would be like trying to remodel a living room in the gastanks of a gas station while they were still half full. My point is that getting worlds other than Mars to shirtsleeve temps with O2 is just not feasible. In any sort of timeframe that would be plausible for any non-Mars terraforming project (and arguably even Mars) we will have the biotech and nanotech to make our own bodies adapted to vastly more hostile environments. Along with more advanced engineering, it's just a waste of valuable energy to terraform most planets.

For example, it would probably be fairly straightforward using tech 100 years from now to modify humans to be vacuum compatible. Having colonists that are compatible with the environment rather than vice-versa makes much more sense.

Byron · 2004-03-29 12:14:18

I should clarify - by easier to deal with hot than cold, I mean large extremes. It's much easier for humans to survive on a partially terraformed Titan at -70C than for them to survive on a partially terraformed Venus at 300C. When its cold, you can just put on a jacket, so to speak. Trying to deal with excess heat is very difficult.
I doubt that Titan will ever have liquid water on it and there would be no reason to try - it a big oil spill anyway. Trying to make the open surface of Titan livable would be like trying to remodel a living room in the gastanks of a gas station while they were still half full. My point is that getting worlds other than Mars to shirtsleeve temps with O2 is just not feasible. In any sort of timeframe that would be plausible for any non-Mars terraforming project (and arguably even Mars) we will have the biotech and nanotech to make our own bodies adapted to vastly more hostile environments. Along with more advanced engineering, it's just a waste of valuable energy to terraform most planets.
For example, it would probably be fairly straightforward using tech 100 years from now to modify humans to be vacuum compatible. Having colonists that are compatible with the environment rather than vice-versa makes much more sense.

While I agree with you about the practicality of terraforming worlds other than Mars, I have serious doubts about humans being able to live in a vacuum in a hundred years. Even if nanotech really did make such a thing possible, who would want to alter their bodies to such an extreme degree to actually reside in a vacuum? :hm:

To be sure, (imho) humans will be able to experience nearly evironment imaginable through the wonders of immersive VR (which, given enough development time will seem indistinguisable from experiencing the "real thing" a la "Total Recall"), leaving the outer planets and most other places in the Solar System to the realm of a vast army of semi-autonomous robots serving as remote extensions of humans living in more hospitable climes. To me, that would be the easiest and most economical way to do things...lol.

If there ever is to be large numbers of people living in places other than Earth, Moon or Mars, I think it will be in O'Neill colonies or hollowed-out asteroids and the like.

B

SBird · 2004-03-29 15:22:23

Although I think that the near-term changes from biotech and nanotech are highly overrated, the 100-year time scale for the two technologies could easily get a vacuum-proof person. I'm sure that turn of the century vacuum tube manufacturers had all sort of unrealiztic claims for how their products would revolutionize society. I'm pretty sure that no-one though that in 100 years, there would be an Internet that carries most of the world's commerce and information. We tend to overestimate short term technological change and underestimate long term change.

Even if the changes for such an individual were severe, you'd get thousands of people willing to go that route - look at all the wierd and bizzare things that people do now. There's amurder tial in Germany recently where a guy's on trial because he ate another man - with that man's INFORMED CONSENT. The guy he ate WANTED to be killed and eaten - they even videotaped the whole thing for proof. There's even the equivalent of a cannibal/meal dating service out there although tis appears to have been the only casualty so far.

No, you're not going to hurt for volunteers. Furthermore, those people will have kids and you'll soon have an adapted spacefaring race. O'Neill colonies are probably the future of humans in space. Vacuum adapted folk make even more sense in that framework - no atmosphere and life support to worry about.

Earthfirst · 2004-04-05 11:58:11

What wrong with you people cant you leave the one good moon in the solar system alone. Titan should be lefth alone, there are lots of other moon to toy with like triton. Now there is a project.

REB · 2004-04-28 06:36:39

Has Titan’s atmosphere expanded? Check out this article;

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/solarsyste … ncrab.html

Note this part;

Images showed that the diameter of Titan's X-ray shadow was larger than the diameter of the moon's solid surface. Why the difference? The answer: Titan's atmosphere. The difference in diameters reveals that the X-ray absorbing region of the moon's atmosphere reaches from the surface to a height of about 550 miles.

The upper atmosphere's extent is consistent with Voyager 1's 1980 measurements, or 10-15 percent larger. But according to Hiroshi Tsunemi of Japan's Osaka University, Saturn was closer to the sun in 2003, so possibly prompting Titan's atmosphere to expand slightly from increased solar heating.

kippy · 2004-04-28 09:59:55

One thing to consider is that heating the atmosphere would evaporate it. I heard that the thickness of the atmosphere is only due to it's chilly temperature. would heating it up via terraforming cause it to vanish?

it might be a situation where we have to choose one: heat or thick atmosphere.

by the way, I thought the atmosphere was mostly nitrogen, not methane.

Earthfirst · 2004-04-28 11:16:10

It is almost all N2 with only traces of hydrocarbons. Most of the N2 came from the break down of NH3which warmed it durning its formation. One way to look at is this way, Calisto and gandymede have on major atmosphere. They lost it because they were closer to the sun and warmer, Titan has a thick one just right temp for low gravity world. Triton has thin one of N2 it too could for most of its year, it poles are made of N2 ices. Pluto has an atmosphere when its close to the sun too. It just like the inner planets Mercury too small and hot, Earth just right and mars too cold, yet not cold enough.
If triton and jupitor moons were at saturn they would have a thick atmosphere too.
Titan is one of a kind like the earth so lefth it alone, mess around with the other world of the solar system.

REB · 2004-04-28 11:56:38

Earthfirst, you have it right.

When it comes to a world’s atmosphere, mass and temperature both play an important roll. As solar temperature goes up, so does the required mass to hold onto an atmosphere go up. As you get farther from the Sun (or parent star) the mass for a world to hold onto an atmosphere goes down. But then we reach a point where the atmosphere starts turning to a solid and size doesn’t matter (Except the larger mass worlds like Uranus and Neptune, who’s atmosphere is kept as a gas because of internal heat- I think this is true. If we could kill the internal heat, would the four gas giants stay gaseous by the Sun’s energy, or would they freeze solid? Jupiter and Saturn would stay gaseous without internal heat, but I am not sure about Uranus and Neptune.)

Mars and Mercury have the same gravity. If they switched places, Mercury could hold onto a mars-like atmosphere, and mars would loose its atmosphere- like your example of Ganymede and Titan.

If Titan was warmed to an Earth-like environment, it would start loosing it atmosphere. The atmosphere would last for probably millions of years. Same is true of our own Moon (Whose gravity is similar to Titan). If we added an Earth-like atmosphere to the Moon, it would last for at least a million years before it all leaked back into space.

RobS · 2004-05-14 22:18:36

The thing that causes atmosphere to escape is extreme heat and this is a function of solar ultraviolet and X-rays, especially. If one could place a billion nuclear reactors on Titan and heat its surface to Earth-like temperatures I suspect it would hold onto its atmosphere pretty well, because the exospheric temperature would still be low (not many hundreds of degrees).

Of course, holding onto the atmosphere might not help much because the outer several hundred kilometers of Titan is probably water ice mixed with dissolved methane and other hydrocarbons, and all that ice would melt, producing a deep and noxious ocean.

-- RobS

atitarev · 2004-05-20 20:36:17

Earthfirst, you have it right.
When it comes to a world’s atmosphere, mass and temperature both play an important roll. As solar temperature goes up, so does the required mass to hold onto an atmosphere go up. As you get farther from the Sun (or parent star) the mass for a world to hold onto an atmosphere goes down. But then we reach a point where the atmosphere starts turning to a solid and size doesn’t matter (Except the larger mass worlds like Uranus and Neptune, who’s atmosphere is kept as a gas because of internal heat- I think this is true. If we could kill the internal heat, would the four gas giants stay gaseous by the Sun’s energy, or would they freeze solid? Jupiter and Saturn would stay gaseous without internal heat, but I am not sure about Uranus and Neptune.)
Mars and Mercury have the same gravity. If they switched places, Mercury could hold onto a mars-like atmosphere, and mars would loose its atmosphere- like your example of Ganymede and Titan.
If Titan was warmed to an Earth-like environment, it would start loosing it atmosphere. The atmosphere would last for probably millions of years. Same is true of our own Moon (Whose gravity is similar to Titan). If we added an Earth-like atmosphere to the Moon, it would last for at least a million years before it all leaked back into space.

For humanity a million years is a long period. If the temperatures are under 0 degrees C it'll be warm enough for creatures to survive but gases won't escape that fast. Same applies to terraforming Ganymede and Callisto. The escaped atmosphere can be topped up later on.

It is now proven now that Mars had an ocean for a long period. It means it held the atmosphere as well. Why Mars lost its ocean is unknown. It could be that impact that created Hellas basin and Tharsis bulge. There were discussions saying that Mars could not have any liquid water on the surface because of its low gravity. Titan, as well as Callisto and Ganymede could all hold a large atmosphere and surface water. Salty seas/oceans would stay liquid in cold temperatures.

mbastion · 2004-05-31 00:07:01

Hi,

Titan can't be terraformed. Check out my list at:

http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/esc … scape.html

from my website:
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

Michael

atitarev · 2004-06-02 00:23:40

Hi,
Titan can't be terraformed. Check out my list at:
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/esc … scape.html
from my website:
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html
Michael

As in other threads about terraforming, it's arguable. Your formulas might be right but there's more. I won't repeat my points in other threads and what other people said about this but "colder moons" of the solar system - Callisto, Ganymede (Jupiter) and Titan (Saturn) will always be much colder. Terraforming may not be exactly making planets copies of Earth but maing them habitable - (hopefully) with breathable atmosphere, enough water, fauna and flora.

The colder moons have already plenty of water - frozen. Their mass/size shows they must consist partially of water. Given the right atmosphere and enough heat to enable plants and animals to survive - may be enough. If the air temperatures are -20 C at least - we may have some underground salty waters and liquid water under a crust of ice - where primitive creatures and/or fish may live. People will wear warm clothes and live in warm buildings.

Titan is too cold and has only 1% of the solar energy compared to Earth. Because of that the changes of terraforming Titan are slim, not because of its low gravity.

mbastion · 2004-06-02 01:58:08

Hi,

>Terraforming may not be exactly making planets copies of Earth

That's what "Terraforming" means.

>but maing them habitable

There is a significant difference between "habitable" and "terraformed". We need to find an analogous word to describe the process leading to a "habitable" planet/moon. In all fairness I will crunch the numbers and see what is required to make Mars "Habitable"

>The colder moons have already plenty of water - frozen.

The moons lack an atmosphere, so when you melt the water, it will vapourise, then photodissociate and escape into space.

>Titan is too cold

You're talking about Titan (cold) before it's terraformed. I'm talking about what will happen if you attempt to terraform it, and gravity plays a key role in what will happen.

Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

atitarev · 2004-06-02 17:12:42

Hi,
>Terraforming may not be exactly making planets copies of Earth
That's what "Terraforming" means.
>but maing them habitable
There is a significant difference between "habitable" and "terraformed". We need to find an analogous word to describe the process leading to a "habitable" planet/moon. In all fairness I will crunch the numbers and see what is required to make Mars "Habitable"
>The colder moons have already plenty of water - frozen.
The moons lack an atmosphere, so when you melt the water, it will vapourise, then photodissociate and escape into space.
>Titan is too cold
You're talking about Titan (cold) before it's terraformed. I'm talking about what will happen if you attempt to terraform it, and gravity plays a key role in what will happen.
Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

Terraforming, at least here, or in the minds of most terraformers is not making copies of Earth. It's impossible and not neccessary. Of course, everybody knows the origin of the word "terraforming". A planet doesn't have to have exactly the same temperature, if it makes it easier for the planet to hold the atmosphere and water. Mars will always be much colder than Earth, Callisto and Ganymede much colder and Titan colder still. Please don't twist my words. If I say, terraforming a planet, I don't mean making them as warm as Earth, even if they are colder, or way colder, they can still be considered terraformed, if they have breathable atmosphere and some forms of life can survive on it. Some planets can get closer and some not to resemble Earth. A successful terraforming is when the planet is livable.

If Titan, or other colder moons remain relatively cold (below 0 C) they won't lose their water fast. There may not be much of the liquid water, anyway.

mbastion · 2004-06-02 19:29:00

Hi,

I officially introduce the word "Caeliforming" (K-AY-LEE-forming) into the discussion. Caeliforming, translated from latin is "to create and support the sky".

Caeliforming means: to create and maintain an earth-like atmosphere (air pressure, temperature, constituents), to make a planet/moon habitable for humans.

Caeliforming can be incorporated into the Terraforming process or remain separate from it.

Significant differences between Caeliforming and Terraforming are:
*Caeliforming is modifying an atmosphere to be earth-like, while Terraforming is modifying an entire planet (including the atmosphere) to support an earth-like, terrestrial (surface) ecosystem.
*A terraformed mass has an earth-like gravity and can retain Hydrogen in it's atmosphere over a geological period.
*A terraformed mass requires little or no external atmospheric maintenance over a geological period.

Mars can easily be Caeliformed, but not Terraformed.
On a caeliformed Mars you can walk around without a face mask, but gravity would still be very low, people would live underground and H20 oceans would dry up over geological periods. The air would be fairly dry and water would be a valuable commodity.

Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

karov · 2004-06-03 11:35:19

The terraformed moons should lose their hydrogen much slower than expected under this unsophisticated plain formula.
1. The hydrogen which leaves the gravity field of Titan remains in "orbit" around Saturn. The hydrogen tail of the moon forms something like torus around the main planet -- second level of unstable balance, before finally dissipating in the solar system -- mag-sail could scoop it towards the titan atmosphere back.
2. The increased illumination of the atmosphere could be done by filtered in the visible and lower part of the spectrum (via nano-meshy reflectors) in order to be decreased the photodisociation...
I should stop now, but en route literally dozens of means could occur... Don`t forget that Saturn is unexhaustable H-source...

karov · 2004-06-03 12:31:26

...3.If combination of Saturn-Sol L1 positioned soleta concentrating (filtered?) sun light on annular (hyperboloid?) mirror arround Titan is used, than the walls of the rotating reflective "cowl" could be provided with elecromagnetic effect redirecting constantly the lost hydrogen back in the atmosphere, together with absence of UV and higher radiation -- meaning lower exosphere temperature, i.e. minimising overal gas velocities. The constant illumination and super-green house gasses and other atmosphere components could allow, far lesser amount of Watts on sq.m. necesarry.

Such techniques together with foam/cell isolation of the icy crust from the warmed ecology above, could allow very wide range of possible arcology designes -- from the mentioned minus tens of degrees centigrade sub-arctic climate, to tropical. The isolation "blanket" indeed will provide and regulate the world topology and relief, different quantities of H2O could be released over or trapped under it. Artificial mountains biuld, through filling empty high structures which freeze thereafter, or deep oceans by melting and pumping the covered ice of the base -- a byproduct of the overal planetary termal ballance and airconditioning -- like vertical and plumbed ocean currants termoduct mechanism...

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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Re: Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

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