Appropriate Topics: War & Politics *2*

clark · 2004-05-07 09:59:40

So, I've been thinking, trying to look at this from a different angle...

Should Rumsfeld be fired? No. Would it be politcally expdient, sure. Rove politcal calculations, or Bush loyalty, which will win? Just soap opera drama.

The prisoner abuse shouldn't come as a surprise. We have to get information from people who don't like us, have no reason to like us, and who don't want to help us. Simply put, you need to break them like dogs. Hey, I get it, it saves the lives we value, our own.

The fundamental FUBAR here though is that US GI's took pictures of this process. They took snap shots for the folks back home, smiling over the beaten and humiliated bodies of our enemies. They were smiling over the brutal process of breaking people. That's simply wrong.

I think a lot of high level officers turned a blind eye to the process. They screwed up though becuase they didn't have enough sense to tell the lower ranks, "don't be stupid, no evidence please."

He said she said is an old game, and one we expect. Conclusive evidence just makes us look bad. Expect the digital camera's to disappear.

Maybe Bush is the man to continue leading us, but as far as I see, I haven't liked most of his decisions. I think he has been effective, but I think he could have done better- this is mainly on the foreign policy side.

The domestic side, well, I think we have become more polarized as a nation under his stewardship. Just about every major domestic policy he has started has had serious problems. I think our future as a nation is being sold out from underneath us.

I don't trust John Ashcroft, nor Cheney. I don't trust Wolfowitz, nor Rove. These are people behind the scenes that are shaping policy. These are Bush's trusted advisors. They help him make many of the decisions along various lines.

But, it is just my opinion. I simply wish enough people agree with me come November.

Palomar · 2004-05-07 10:35:31

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … s_dc_1]Red Cross report

*If what the RC officials are saying is wholly true, then we've lost the war. And all our soldiers have died in vain.

The Arabs will no doubt relate (link) this to African slavery in the U.S. (previously they have already tried playing that racial situation to their own benefit -- despite not being Africans themselves), the treatment of the Native Americans, etc.

Looks to me like we've lost. I really dread the vengeance that's coming, especially for future generations of Americans who had nothing to do with these current acts.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I think draconian measures are called for. Bush should resign as President, taking Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc., with him. Swear in an interim President, collect a new cabinet, ask the UN to step in and help mend fences -- with U.S. in the background. The U.S. has zero credibility now. Zero, zilch, nada, none.

clark · 2004-05-07 11:40:34

Make Frist the leader of our country? :laugh:

It's Majority leader, right?

Bill White · 2004-05-07 11:54:37

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-07 13:13:48

*If what the RC officials are saying is wholly true, then we've lost the war. And all our soldiers have died in vain.
The Arabs will no doubt relate (link) this to African slavery in the U.S. (previously they have already tried playing that racial situation to their own benefit -- despite not being Africans themselves), the treatment of the Native Americans, etc.
Looks to me like we've lost. I really dread the vengeance that's coming, especially for future generations of Americans who had nothing to do with these current acts.
--Cindy
::EDIT:: I think draconian measures are called for. Bush should resign as President, taking Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc., with him. Swear in an interim President, collect a new cabinet, ask the UN to step in and help mend fences -- with U.S. in the background. The U.S. has zero credibility now. Zero, zilch, nada, none.

So essentially you're saying we go cower in the corner, letting them know that we're really a bunch of decadent, squeamish pansies and we'll never, ever upset them again? F**k that!

Swords aren't for falling on.

Palomar · 2004-05-07 13:28:31

So essentially you're saying we go cower in the corner, letting them know that we're really a bunch of decadent, squeamish pansies and we'll never, ever upset them again? F**k that!
Swords aren't for falling on.

*Well, I think this is far beyond merely "upsetting them."

Do you honestly (sincere question) think we DO have any credibility at this point?

[I just read a Yahoo! headline that Paul Bremer knew of the abuse as early as January. Were steps being taken to curtail/halt the abuse? I don't know...but the question is legit.]

*Honestly...do we have credibility anymore?*

As for falling on swords -- it seems to me we've willingly eviscerated ourselves this time.

Actions have consequences, like it or not; the abusive U.S. prison guards (or whatever their title was) have effectively pulled the rug out from under this entire effort. Undermined it -- drastically so.

If you don't have credibility and integrity -- what *do* you have??

I'm not calling for running, cowering in a corner. I just don't know if we truly have "a hand" left to play!

--Cindy

clark · 2004-05-07 13:33:14

We have fear. The question is, do we use it? The next question is, will the American people stomach its use.

No Iraqi will believe that the boots of American's are soft anymore. That we are restrained. It can be used, but it ain't pretty. [shrug]

Bill White · 2004-05-07 13:49:46

*If what the RC officials are saying is wholly true, then we've lost the war. And all our soldiers have died in vain.
The Arabs will no doubt relate (link) this to African slavery in the U.S. (previously they have already tried playing that racial situation to their own benefit -- despite not being Africans themselves), the treatment of the Native Americans, etc.
Looks to me like we've lost. I really dread the vengeance that's coming, especially for future generations of Americans who had nothing to do with these current acts.
--Cindy
::EDIT:: I think draconian measures are called for. Bush should resign as President, taking Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, etc., with him. Swear in an interim President, collect a new cabinet, ask the UN to step in and help mend fences -- with U.S. in the background. The U.S. has zero credibility now. Zero, zilch, nada, none.

So essentially you're saying we go cower in the corner, letting them know that we're really a bunch of decadent, squeamish pansies and we'll never, ever upset them again? F**k that!
Swords aren't for falling on.

Define victory, now.

Wining and losing is all about expectations. What is our expectation for Iraq? What is a reasonable expectation for Iraq?

The neo-cons were aiming for an Iraq with an Israeli look alike flag that would give diplomatic recognition to Israel and openly sell Israel oil.

By overreaching, we fell short of what we might have gained had we let Sistani have his elections a few months ago.

clark · 2004-05-07 13:59:01

Define victory, now.

Sending Bush and Company home.

Palomar · 2004-05-07 14:15:47

Define victory, now.

*Well (as if I'm qualified)...it seems to me there are two ways of guaranteeing victory in a war: Pummeling and beating the enemy into submission via brute force -or- going in to "clean house" a bit while -also- seeking to win over (Psy-Ops) the people, gain their trust and respect, maintain one's credibility and integrity, etc. You've got to secure a level of trustful cooperation with the people, if you want to rebuild and create infrastructure, etc. At least I'm assuming this is so. :-\ I'm very admittedly not a military/war analyst by any stretch of the imagination...

If we -haven't- (via this scandal) lost the trust and respect of what Iraqis had trust and respect for us, I'd be very surprised.

Without trust, what do you have? Nothing. You can't have a relationship of any sort without trust.

More bad news: Rumsfeld says there are -more- photos. Worse photos than what was released; he saw them last night. And -video-. I saw the article at Yahoo! He's predicting how much more awful things are going to get if those pics and video are released to the public.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-07 14:20:56

*Well, I think this is far beyond merely "upsetting them."
Do you honestly (sincere question) think we DO have any credibility at this point?

With whom? We won't have credibility with the UN for a long time, but it hardly matters as they have blown theirs already.

Within the MidEast, credibility is often synonomous with force, and therefore we have credibility, perhaps more than we had at the beginning. We went in with the ghosts of Desert Storm and Somalia. The more they believe we won't cut and run, won't leave the job half done the better off we'll be.

As clark said, we have fear. Perhaps the American people can't stomach it, but this isn't a friendly little game of poker, it's war. Fear is vital. When the Taliban folded does anyone think that Osama and co. were sitting around whining that "it's all over, we've lost, we never should have got 'em mad at us?" No, they believed we were soft and that we could be induced to flee after a few bodybags.

Actions have consequences, like it or not; the abusive U.S. prison guards (or whatever their title was) have effectively pulled the rug out from under this entire effort. Undermined it -- drastically so.

They have created a significant public relations problem, "winning the hearts and minds" will be more difficult now, but this has hardly destroyed the entire operation. Setbacks happen, we must adapt, respond, and move on. Do not despair, all is not lost.

I'm not calling for running, cowering in a corner. I just don't know if we truly have "a hand" left to play!

We have many possibilities. The one I'd play revolves around the twin motivators of "fight us and you will suffer and die. Give up and all the misery will end. Just quit, it's so easy..."

Some of our enemies already understand that if we really wanted to we could end this whole thing tonight, one big sheet of hot glass from the 'stans to Jerusalem. If they can be made to believe that maybe, just maybe if they push too hard we'll actually do it... that's a good thing. Now that they've seen a glimpse of the beast, we should do what we can to let the civilian population know that it remains caged, but never let the enemy forget that it's always there, waiting and hungry.

No Iraqi will believe that the boots of American's are soft anymore. That we are restrained. It can be used, but it ain't pretty. [shrug]

Nor should they. If the boot lands on you, it should be a crushing blow. We just need to let them know that as long as they don't resist, they'll be left alone.

The approach of the United States Army should induce some bowel wrenching fear, no?

Define victory, now.
Wining and losing is all about expectations. What is our expectation for Iraq? What is a reasonable expectation for Iraq?
The neo-cons were aiming for an Iraq with an Israeli look alike flag that would give diplomatic recognition to Israel and openly sell Israel oil.
By overreaching, we fell short of what we might have gained had we let Sistani have his elections a few months ago.

Victory is the same as it ever was, and as some have repeatedly said from the beginning, it will take time. A free republic isn't just a matter of drafting a constitution and counting some ballots. Rushing it is ill-conceived at best, monumental self-delusional suicide at worst.

America needs to get over its fixation with "microwave wars" whose media coverage ends the same year they start.

As a reminder, we're still in that hopeless quagmire... Japan. It takes awhile. We need to stop treating every little setback as though it's the Four Horsemen.

Bill White · 2004-05-07 14:37:28

Victory is the same as it ever was, and as some have repeatedly said from the beginning, it will take time. A free republic isn't just a matter of drafting a constitution and counting some ballots. Rushing it is ill-conceived at best, monumental self-delusional suicide at worst.

We will unite the Kurds, Sunni and Shia in common Iraqi cause based on the hatred of America.

Several weeks ago we appointed one of Saddam's generals to run Fallujaah. Bad idea so two weeks later we replaced him with another general who supposely was tortured by Saddam. Frankly, I would not be too surpirsed if that general had been tortured by Saddam, with lurid video, all to give that guy a tremendous cover story for after the Americans came.

Anyway, our hand picked general, in charge of Iraqi coaltion forces in Fallujah, has said all the Americans should leave sooner rather than later. Oh, this fellow also says that all of the Sunni and Baath heavy weapons hidden in Fallujah have been turned over to him, so don't worry.

And he is our hand picked ally.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-07 14:50:37

We will unite the Kurds, Sunni and Shia in common Iraqi cause based on the hatred of America.

Perhaps, for the immediate future. No one ever promised this would be clean and easy. no one actually in charge of the operation anyway.

Anyway, our hand picked general, in charge of Iraqi coaltion forces in Fallujah, has said all the Americans should leave sooner rather than later. Oh, this fellow also says that all of the Sunni and Baath heavy weapons hidden in Fallujah have been turned over to him, so don't worry.
And he is our hand picked ally.

Yes, this is a total bungling of the situation. It's simply too early to be turning control over to local authorities. The old wounds are still fresh. Let them get resentful of us. In a few years most will just accept American occupation as a fact of life, like most just accepted Saddam's tyranny. A few years later still, we slowly begin handing the country, a piece at a time.

It will take a decade or two, but if we do this right we'll have a reliable ally. Present Iraqi hostility is like our Presidential polls, it doesn't mean anything yet. Wait and see how people feel when it actually matters. Keep our guard up, but don't lose sight of the big picture just because someone smudges a corner.

clark · 2004-05-07 15:00:03

It's firday. We have become the "other". We have become what we fight. We unite them in terror as they unite us in terror.

Even if we win, it looks like we have lost much of what we value most.

I am going to have a drink, and hope things look better on Monday.

cheers.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-07 15:07:36

It's firday. We have become the "other". We have become what we fight. We unite them in terror as they unite us in terror.

We aren't determined to wipe them from the face of the earth at all costs, that's the difference. We need to make more of them understand that.

I am going to have a drink, and hope things look better on Monday.
cheers.

To American victory and prosperous peace for the people of both nations.

Bill White · 2004-05-07 15:37:08

It's firday. We have become the "other". We have become what we fight. We unite them in terror as they unite us in terror.
We aren't determined to wipe them from the face of the earth at all costs, that's the difference. We need to make more of them understand that.
I am going to have a drink, and hope things look better on Monday.
cheers.
To American victory and prosperous peace for the people of both nations.

Cobra, read this. Fundie Islam is a male dominated society. They would rather die than give their wives equal power.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/char … 0507.shtml

Make it a macho versus macho thing, as you say, and we have only one choice. Kill them all.

Sadr is running around in a friggin funeral shawl. His funeral shawl. And you think power projection will win this for us?

Ismaic males hate us because we Westerners humiliate them.

So lets humiliate them more?

= = =

Bush vs fundie Islam. Men arguing about whose is bigger.

From the article:

Which is why the abuse at Abu Ghraib is so inflammatory and, for us and our cause, so damaging. It re-enacted the most deeply psychologically charged -- and most deeply buried -- aspect of the entire war on terror, exactly as bin Laden would have scripted it.

Euler · 2004-05-07 15:39:23

Let them get resentful of us.

That sounds like a bad idea.

It will take a decade or two, but if we do this right we'll have a reliable ally.

I doubt it. I know it happened in Japan, but that is the exception, not the rule.

We aren't determined to wipe them from the face of the earth at all costs, that's the difference.

Most of them are not trying to wipe us off the face of the Earth either. And realistically, they have no chance of destroying America no matter how hard they try. Only the Americans themselves can destroy America, and following Cobra’s plan they will.

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-07 18:06:57

Make it a macho versus macho thing, as you say, and we have only one choice. Kill them all.

Only a small minority adhere to Islam of the fundamentalist variety. Not all predominately Islamic countries treat their women like the Taliban did.

That said, of course the Westernization of Iraq is a threat to the fundamentalist world view. The prospect of change is going to enrage them, drive them to fight to the end. A small minority.A larger group will be uncomfortable and resistant, but being more concerned with living their own lives than in blowing themselves up, they'll grudgingly comply.

The next generation will be born into a different social climate. They will think more like us than like their fundamentalist forebearers.

That said, it would certainly be easier not to undertake such an ambitious task. It would be condoning the way they treat women intheir society and it would be leaving the original problem to fester and grow. We have the opportunity now to not only mend a problem but rip it out at the roots. It will mean killing a lot of people who are determined to kill us, but in the end it will save many more. If we do this, the next generation will thank us. If we don't, they'll just be more people trying to blow us up.

Sadr is running around in a friggin funeral shawl. His funeral shawl. And you think power projection will win this for us?
Ismaic males hate us because we Westerners humiliate them.
So lets humiliate them more?

I'm not suggesting we make this humiliation standard operating procedure, but what's done is done and we need to deal with it.

Power projection won't work for the crazies, but it will work for the vast majority of the population.

Quote
Let them get resentful of us.

That sounds like a bad idea.

Which assumes it can be avoided if we're just nice and quiet about invading their friggin' country! The subjects of an occupation get resentful, it's just the way things work. We need to stop whining every time some terrorist gets their feelings hurt and deal with reality.

Quote
We aren't determined to wipe them from the face of the earth at all costs, that's the difference.

Most of them are not trying to wipe us off the face of the Earth either. And realistically, they have no chance of destroying America no matter how hard they try. Only the Americans themselves can destroy America, and following Cobra’s plan they will.

That's my point, only a minority are the true enemy. That is why I'm appalled at the prisoner abuse. But wishing it would go away and apoligizing profusely helps no one but those very crazies bent on killing us.

No, they can't destroy America, but they can kill alot of Americans. We are obligated to prevent that from happening, the only choice is whether we do it half-assed so our children can experience the same war, or do we finish the job now?

We won't accomplish anything feeling sorry for our enemies and guilty about being the Great Satan in their eyes.

Bill White · 2004-05-07 19:51:23

In my opinion, too many of the American soldiers carry out their duties with a "kick butt" mentality that comes from watching "Cops" a few too many times.

That is why I talked about the Brits and their berets and the Yanks and full combat gear.

Kick in the door of a suspected (but innocent) Iraqi and humiliate him in front of his teen age daughter and voila! a new terrorist is born.

And with RPGs costing less than $50 each, well, what 17 year old kid of ANY ethnic background wouldn't love to shoot off some RPGs? Kids in my high school made pipe bombs, not for political reasons but because it was fun.

Palomar · 2004-05-07 20:14:23

In my opinion, too many of the American soldiers carry out their duties with a "kick butt" mentality that comes from watching "Cops" a few too many times.

*Agreed. And this is, IMO, another indicator of the coarsening of our society. I don't want to derail the thread, but would like to make a few comments: I recall, as a teenager in the early 1980s, a vocal and valiant group of mothers expressing concern over the cartoons their children were watching...even Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies cartoons of Elmer Fudd shooting Bugs Bunny too many times. Ironically, this is around the same time a lot of contemporary cartoons turned more adult-themed ("action") and violent. Contemporary Saturday a.m. programming in the 1970s was beginning to take on that flavor, but (to the best of my recollection) geared around superheros with a moral message ("Shazam!" for one). The push to censor Bugs Bunny cartoons (axes, shotguns, getting hit with airborne anvils) won...and along comes violent video games. Now we've got phrases like "I'm gonna kick your ass" spewed out left and right (yeah, some of it is in jest)...just a generally VERY violent culture (all the shoot 'em up movies, gory films, explicit violence in theaters...on and on). The elementary school kids taking knives and guns to school -- including those who USE them, like in the rash of school shootings we had in the late 1990s -- will soon be entering college, work life...the military. Will they suddenly develop scruples and principles and morals and ethics?

I hope to god so. But I don't believe in miracles anymore.

American culture has been on a down-hill slide for a long time; IMO it picked up momentum in the very early 1980s and seems to be really snowballing now.

In fact, just 6 years ago I encountered the first workplace violence ever. One woman lost her temper with another, and slapped her across the face. In a hospital's transcription department!

I really don't know where it's going, but the kind of violence we're seeing ... well, "you reap what you sow."

I'm not seeking to blame the younger generation, btw. Each preceding generation has a share in the blame, including mine.

--Cindy

Euler · 2004-05-07 20:42:57

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm]US crime rate 1960-2000

The crime rate slowly but steadily rose from 1960-1990, but has been declining since the peak in 1991.

The elementary school kids taking knives and guns to school -- including those who USE them, like in the rash of school shootings we had in the late 1990s -- will soon be entering college, work life...the military. Will they suddenly develop scruples and principles and morals and ethics?

The current generation of kids is not really any more violent than past generations. Rather than saying that there was a rash of school shootings, it would probably be more accurate to say that there was a rash of media attention focused on school shootings.

Palomar · 2004-05-08 05:42:09

The elementary school kids taking knives and guns to school -- including those who USE them, like in the rash of school shootings we had in the late 1990s -- will soon be entering college, work life...the military. Will they suddenly develop scruples and principles and morals and ethics?
The current generation of kids is not really any more violent than past generations. Rather than saying that there was a rash of school shootings, it would probably be more accurate to say that there was a rash of media attention focused on school shootings.

*Bullying, cliques, ostracization of people who are "different," cruel mind games...that hasn't changed.

However, I beg to differ with you regarding -violence- in schools. When I was growing up in the 1970s, I -never- heard (beyond an occasional fistfight, getting shoved, tripped, getting a foot stepped on, etc.) of school shooting rampages. I heard of knives and guns in BIG CITY schools -- LA, Chicago, NY, even Peoria, Illinois had one very troubled school. But those were always "big city" problems, or problems where there were a lot of racial tensions (Peoria in the 1970s).

Social mores and values -have- changed in this nation. Especially in HOW people express frustration, anger, etc. I never heard of pre-planned, execution-style shooting sprees in schools -- even in rinky-dink Alabama towns about the size of my own small town! -- until around 1996. I think the term "school shootings" is entirely apt, independent of the news media, because I never heard of this sort of behavior before and I am (I'm rather sure) an alert person who pays attention to what is going on around me. I never heard of such a thing via small, independent newspapers, word of mouth, etc.

But again: I'm not seeking to blame the younger generation, btw. Each preceding generation has a share in the blame, including mine.

I do hope to god violence is actually decreasing in this nation. I really do.

Back on topic now --

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2004-05-08 07:03:40

Lo

It will mean killing a lot of people who are determined to kill us, but in the end it will save many more.

Hi Cobra, for one you kill, ten rise against you, such as you have to kill more and more, have hands filled with blood, as a true genocider, and that makes you not much different from those you are killing, that makes you a member fo Empire of Evil.
By the way what are the Values you are fighting for ? Respect of life ?

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-08 08:08:29

By the way what are the Values you are fighting for ? Respect of life ?

Freedom, Justice, and respect for the lives of those who reciprocate.

Mundaka · 2004-05-08 11:35:38

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