A "Yes These People Actually Exist Moment" - Phyllis Reincarnated.

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-10 12:01:11

[http://yecheadquarters.org/welcome.html]YEC
Headquarters

Sadly its the year 2004 and people still think the world is 6000 years old.

bolbuyk · 2004-04-10 14:18:54

It really interests me. I also believe in six-day creation and a rather young reality. I don't see any problems with that.

By the way, most people can't understand that the same person can be both creationist and Marsfreak. :laugh: But I don't see a real problem.

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-10 14:41:17

It means you can't describe the landscapes of Mars ancient while the rest of us can :b.

bolbuyk · 2004-04-10 14:54:29

My opinion is that science has it's limitations, especially where it comes to theorizing about long times ago. Beside that, prevailing cosmoligical and evolutionary explanations are subject to changes and are confronted with facts that are difficult to take with. Also yet are other theories that explain certain facts, but have less interest.

However, Mars fascinates me. When it comes to hypothesizing about what has been there, I just think it's mostly speculation.

Mundaka · 2004-04-10 15:17:47

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-10 16:02:53

Eh yeah... I'm a Evolutionary Theist(Theistic Evolution if you will), but YEC's are the unusual people that believe there is no evidence for evolution, no evidence that the earth/universe is older than 6000 years, and in some cases they believe in geocentrism.

Mundaka · 2004-04-10 18:04:19

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-10 19:47:39

So? Its a free country. I don't agree with their ideas either. I also don't think they should present their ideas as science, or try to force public schools to do so either -- especially now that homeschooling is a viable option.
But that's not an excuse to belittle them, trash them, or describe the fact of their existance as, "sad" -- just because it has become trendy to bully deeply religious people doesn't mean you should take up that particular torch.

Well said. While I personally don't think much of the beliefs in question, what's the point of senseless ridicule? As long as they leave me alone I'll reciprocate.

Palomar · 2004-04-10 20:36:00

So? Its a free country. I don't agree with their ideas either. I also don't think they should present their ideas as science, or try to force public schools to do so either -- especially now that homeschooling is a viable option.
But that's not an excuse to belittle them, trash them, or describe the fact of their existance as, "sad" -- just because it has become trendy to bully deeply religious people doesn't mean you should take up that particular torch.
Well said. While I personally don't think much of the beliefs in question, what's the point of senseless ridicule? As long as they leave me alone I'll reciprocate.

*Agreed.

You either believe -everyone- is entitled to their opinions/beliefs (whether or not you agree with said opinions/beliefs) or you don't. It's as simple as that.

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-04-11 10:53:01

The trouble is, they won't "leave you alone." They won't tolerate your arguments based upon science and, what's worse, your spacetravel ambitions. How could they? since your very ideas are anathema to their own ambitions of gaining for themselves a "paradise" for their own selfish ends. Ask any fundamentalist of whatever "faith" if they aren't just out to get imagined eternal favour, as a result of being (whatever the polite word is for "suck-ups"). Being "interested in Mars, bla-bla" isn't sufficient excuse to expect to be treated with kid gloves, and I resent their presemption that they have anything of value to offer to your factually based arguments, based on closed-mind superstitions.

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-11 11:10:02

Indeed, dicktice proceeds to illuminate the point of this topic, Its not that they believe that way, but they present it as scientific fact and try to force it upon people.

Palomar · 2004-04-11 13:29:13

and try to force it upon people.

*So these people aren't entitled to their opinions and beliefs?

If their viewpoints and beliefs disagree with -yours-, are you suggesting they should be deprived of expressing those viewpoints and beliefs because otherwise they are "forcing people"?

And what about the oft-spoken complaints on the part of religionists, that they are being "forced" by secularists to consider the theory of evolution?

--Cindy

(I'm -not- religious or a creationist).

~Eternal~ · 2004-04-11 13:38:28

Somehow I feel I'm not the best person to answer you question, perhaps dicktice shall?

Mundaka · 2004-04-11 15:04:49

dicktice · 2004-04-12 19:32:35

Religion, treated as philosophy elsewhere: fine.
Briefly, what I meant was here within the confines of this Mars Society Chapter, which I value as the best one of all that I've "surfed," if you must know--since I do it for the enjoyment of fulfilment; no one I know around home has the slightest interest in what we are going-on about within these forums. For instance I have a strong sense of advancment in the on-going discussions regarding launching alternatives, just now, with contributable arguments that stand or fall to criticism based upon inculcated scientific method, as opposed to decreed faith. So, to treat admitted "know-nothings" without criticizing their presumptions of "equal time" just for the hell of it (oops)--I mean without paying their dues (oops, again--challenges my sense of urgency. Let's just say that the "flat-landers" (which is who they're equivalent to in their attitudes) aren't going to help much our getting off Earth--when we need all the encouragement the relatively few in the World who will be able to bring this about (perhaps for the only time in human history, remember) before their charished "Armageddon," so eagerly anticipated--I don't say encouraged, but close to it--makes it all impossible to accomplish. I may be cockeyed, but I do believe the ones in charge are not really sincere regarding spacetravel, to say the least.

bolbuyk · 2004-04-13 13:24:20

The point I'd like to make is that it doesn't bother what kind of vision is kept about the origin of Mars, the Earth, whatever. You are interested in Mars or not. It's true, I know creationists that are opponents of human spaceflights, but there are also non-believers who are. I myself consider Mars as made by God about 6000 years ago. Sounds really not very scientific, but keep in mind even people like Newton, whose laws are the basic of orbital mechanics, held this position, and he was surely not the only one. I just feel free to believe it and these days theories about evolution or cosmology are not as stable as is many times suggested.

A creationist view is not autimatically against space-flight. Especially not in my case.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-13 16:29:20

It's true, I know creationists that are opponents of human spaceflights, but there are also non-believers who are. I myself consider Mars as made by God about 6000 years ago. Sounds really not very scientific, but keep in mind even people like Newton, whose laws are the basic of orbital mechanics, held this position, and he was surely not the only one.

Okay, now for the other side of what I said a few days ago. You are completely free to believe that and I'm not going to ridicule you for it as long as there's no creationist evangelism going on.

But, such a position is rightly rejected by anyone with a remotely scientific approach. I'm free to believe that flying monkeys pissing from clouds make the rain, but I would expect the theory to be rejected without some convincing evidence. To claim that Mars, Earth, or the universe is only 6000 years old requires a great deal of explaining before it can be taken as anything other than unsubstantiated religious dogma.

dicktice · 2004-04-14 08:13:11

bolbuyk wrote: "I myself consider Mars as made by God about 6000 years ago. Sounds really not very scientific, but keep in mind even people like Newton, whose laws are the basic of orbital mechanics, held this position, and he was surely not the only one." But Newton had the guts to break with the dogma in the face of opposing observational data, whereas you seem not able to do in the case of e.g., the geological discoveries, ad infinititum of today. What a waste, that you have placed yourself above him in this regard. Remember, Newton commented that he "stood on the shoulders of giants," to accomplish what he did in physics and math. Think of the load of rubbish he had to plow through, just to get that far in those two fields, where little or no opposition existed. To have changed his biblical beliefs would have been unthinkable in his time, and besides it would have ruined him--so that's a red herring. Einstein: Now there's a good example for you to emulate.

clark · 2004-04-14 08:50:13

Einstein: Now there's a good example for you to emulate.

What, dead? :laugh:

bolbuyk · 2004-04-14 10:25:16

What has happened in the past (evolution, creation, whatever) makes no sense to the science and technology as it is yet. I've mentioned the example of orbital mechanics: If Mars began existing hundred or trillions of years ago, that doesn't make any difference for the orbit it goes, taken the perceptions of it's velocity and radius this is determined.
Eg when life is found on Mars, it doesn't say anything about it's origin, it could be created or evoluated. Nobody can build an experimental universe to test the cosmological and evolutional hypotheses that are worked with today.

That's my point, and beside that there are much problems with the theories developed, there exist different variants, and so on. This are reasons that I feel free to hold an other belief about the origin of the universe.

For calculating on orbital mechanics, experimental design for detecting life, and so on, it doesn't make any difference.

I don't want to be pedantic to Newton or anybody. I don't understand your point in this case.

clark · 2004-04-14 14:00:34

How about this, "the world, the universe, all of it, is older than anyone."

So the world is 6,000 years old, the dinosaurs were just oversized stuffed animals that died off in the first ten years of exsistence to make room for those fast-advancing humans...

Oh, and the dodo's never went extinct. Nothing ever goes extinct, and the tree's that indicate that they have been alive longer than 6,000 years... well, that's just fancy rhetoric.

Why is it that Christian fundamentalists hold that abstention is the best means to prevent preganancy when their religion is predicated on a woman who got pregnant without having sex? :laugh: Never mind this last troll comment. No point, just food for thought on our way to Armageddon... was that a trumpet I just heard?

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-14 16:41:09

Why is it that Christian fundamentalists hold that abstention is the best means to prevent preganancy when their religion is predicated on a woman who got pregnant without having sex? Never mind this last troll comment. No point, just food for thought on our way to Armageddon... was that a trumpet I just heard?

:laugh:

Now where did that horse run off to, we've got apocalypsin' to do...

dicktice · 2004-04-14 18:47:54

Einstein: Now there's a good example for you to emulate.
What, dead? :laugh:

No more dead than Newton--what's your :laugh: point? By the way, bolbuyk, don't mind me--I'm way past redemption.

clark · 2004-04-14 21:10:54

I get Pestilence!

bolbuyk · 2004-04-15 06:50:57

I just think my point is rather clear. I'm rather glad you show more interest in biblical issues then much people I encounter.

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#1 2004-04-10 12:01:11

Re: A "Yes These People Actually Exist Moment" - Phyllis Reincarnated.

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Re: A "Yes These People Actually Exist Moment" - Phyllis Reincarnated.

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