Universal Overview

Palomar · 2004-04-01 12:15:40

*I suppose this is a bit "ambitious," but occasionally I entertain the idea of what the entire Universe (a huge chunk of territory, I know...lol) would look like -- or rather, how it looks -- if I could see it entirely.

Would it resemble a clockwork? From what I read (layman's stuff, yep...), likely not, given all the chaos out there.

If you could have a computer simulation of the entire universe, compressed but all elements visible, what do you think it would resemble most? I mean the interplay of everything...the cycles, etc. What might it resemble?

I'm thinking in terms of the macroscopic becoming at least somewhat microscopic. Predicate that on "the macroscopic is reflected in the microscopic" idea.

Frankly, I don't yet have a comparison in mind...but I'm thinking about it.

This is a bit hard to put into words, but hopefully we can have some fun with it.

--Cindy

John Creighton · 2004-04-01 12:18:06

Interesting thought, look at water. We don't see trillions of molecules but rather a fluid. It hes density surface tension temperature etc.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-02 05:43:08

Cindy, I think the universe might be incomprehensible to the human mind, even if you could see it in its entirety.

How do you visualise an object which has a border but which is infinite, which enables you to move away from your point of origin in a straight line but wind up where you started from, where empty space is curved?
How can the human consciousness take in the actual appearance of a universe where ordinary matter is confined on a surface, called a brane (jargon for membrane), embedded in a higher dimensional spacetime?

These are some of the models which have been postulated as representative of the reality of the universe we inhabit. For a species which has not long left the safety of the trees and taken to full-time bipedalism, I think that trying to visualise the form of the universe is fraught with difficulties.
In fact a phrase springs to mind: "That way lies madness ... !"

Palomar · 2004-04-02 05:53:56

Cindy, I think the universe might be incomprehensible to the human mind, even if you could see it in its entirety.
How do you visualise an object which has a border but which is infinite, which enables you to move away from your point of origin in a straight line but wind up where you started from, where empty space is curved?
How can the human consciousness take in the actual appearance of a universe where ordinary matter is confined on a surface, called a brane (jargon for membrane), embedded in a higher dimensional spacetime?
These are some of the models which have been postulated as representative of the reality of the universe we inhabit. For a species which has not long left the safety of the trees and taken to full-time bipedalism, I think that trying to visualise the form of the universe is fraught with difficulties.
In fact a phrase springs to mind: "That way lies madness ... !"

*I know, I know. Not sure I agree with the "madness" quote, however.

I've always had a desire for omniscience, even as a child.

Ah well. I like to indulge the desire once in a while.

In this context, I was really taken with Arthur C. Clarke's character of Dave Bowman in _2001_, when he became the Star Child (in the original story...not the sequels; I didn't like the sequels). Not quite omniscient, but talk about a quantum leap in consciousness!

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-02 08:38:21

I hasten to say I didn't mean it was madness to want to know the shape of the universe and what it would look like. I meant it in the way Dr Morbius in "Forbidden Planet" meant it when he asked the rhetorical question: "Did he really think his primitive ape brain could contain the secrets of the Krell?!" (Spoken after one of the heroes had rashly used a mind enhancing and teaching machine, used by an extinct race on a distant planet to test their children, and had 'blown his mind' in the process! )
I just think there are some concepts, like dimensions beyond the familiar three we all know, which the human mind simply can't get a handle on. I can imagine a situation where a human, confronted with some graphically real phenomenon totally outside her frame of reference, might find the experience overwhelming and suffer mental damage as a result. What if you were suddenly in a 'room' where four dimensions were accessible to you instead of three, where you could place an object inside your own abdominal cavity without breaking the skin, or remove cash from a locked safe without opening the door by passing the money 'around' the walls of the safe?
Maybe your yearning for omniscience might enable you to adapt readily to such a bizarre situation but I think many people would probably lose their grip quite quickly.
Or am I underestimating our oh-so-flexible ape brain!
???

Byron · 2004-04-02 10:41:45

I just think there are some concepts, like dimensions beyond the familiar three we all know, which the human mind simply can't get a handle on. I can imagine a situation where a human, confronted with some graphically real phenomenon totally outside her frame of reference, might find the experience overwhelming and suffer mental damage as a result. What if you were suddenly in a 'room' where four dimensions were accessible to you instead of three, where you could place an object inside your own abdominal cavity without breaking the skin, or remove cash from a locked safe without opening the door by passing the money 'around' the walls of the safe?
Maybe your yearning for omniscience might enable you to adapt readily to such a bizarre situation but I think many people would probably lose their grip quite quickly.
Or am I underestimating our oh-so-flexible ape brain!
???

Not me...lol...I'd be having the time of my life if I could experience something like that. Talk about your "novel" experience!

As for the "Forbidden Planet"...it's definitely one of those "two thumbs up" movies...it was cinematic sci-fi at its best...truthfully, it's one of my all-time favorite films. I *highly* recommend watching it if you've never seen it

B

Palomar · 2004-04-02 14:58:08

I hasten to say I didn't mean it was madness to want to know the shape of the universe and what it would look like. I meant it in the way Dr Morbius in "Forbidden Planet" meant it when he asked the rhetorical question: "Did he really think his primitive ape brain could contain the secrets of the Krell?!" (Spoken after one of the heroes had rashly used a mind enhancing and teaching machine, used by an extinct race on a distant planet to test their children, and had 'blown his mind' in the process! )
I just think there are some concepts, like dimensions beyond the familiar three we all know, which the human mind simply can't get a handle on. I can imagine a situation where a human, confronted with some graphically real phenomenon totally outside her frame of reference, might find the experience overwhelming and suffer mental damage as a result. What if you were suddenly in a 'room' where four dimensions were accessible to you instead of three, where you could place an object inside your own abdominal cavity without breaking the skin, or remove cash from a locked safe without opening the door by passing the money 'around' the walls of the safe?
Maybe your yearning for omniscience might enable you to adapt readily to such a bizarre situation but I think many people would probably lose their grip quite quickly.
Or am I underestimating our oh-so-flexible ape brain!
???

*I always get a kick out of that quote of Dr. Morbius. :laugh: " -- primitive ape brain -- "

You hadn't quoted it in awhile.

LOL...

Anyway, I see your point, definitely. I think of those wild, whacked-out experiments Dr. John Lilly did with LSD in a sensory deprivation tank in the 1950s and 1960s... :-\ Whoa. (It was all legal, sponsored by the gov't, etc...although Dr. Lilly was still partial to ketamine experiments last I heard). His mind held on, despite the strain. I suppose that's as close as we can yet get to major "tripping" ala this topic.

Check out his books, sometime.

I think omniscience would likely be too much to handle, but I suppose it's impossible anyway. Again, I just like to indulge the desire every once in a while.

--Cindy

P.S.: And I still sometimes wonder if we've seen the resemblance of the entire universe *here* -- somewhere in "everyday, ordinary" life -- and haven't the wherewithal to realize it.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-02 15:48:59

Dare I say something so flippant... The universe is like a toilet. It's simple yet chaotic, most of it is unfit for habitation, all sorts of s**t floats around and eventually it all gets sucked into a black hole.
:hm:

I like that idea about being able to access the fourth dimension, though. Take money out of safes, you say? Put things in chest cavities you say? The possibilities are almost endless with those two things alone.

John Creighton · 2004-04-05 07:34:08

The big flush?

clark · 2004-04-05 08:07:28

It looks like a big kitchen sponge.

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#1 2004-04-01 12:15:40

Re: Universal Overview

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