Science and society

oker56 · 2002-06-30 16:03:31

Zubrin worries america and civilization is becoming stagnant. Maybe they are to a degree, but I think Jacob Bronowski in his book "Science, Magic, and Civilization" is essentially correct. Human society has made an irreverseble move towards a technological future. The space program was probably stopped dead on its tracks on purpose as Zubrin was trying to show in his first chapter of "Entering Space". But, they cannot stop it forever. The establishment of space orbiting communications and military satellites by many countries has forever forced future space development, even if it is a slow process. I believe the reason world war three hasn't happened is because of industrialism. Today in my view, industrialism is bigger than any one nation. As soon as a government tries to do something to stop industrialism, industrialism's invisible hand steps in to stop it. It is like a negative feedback loop. In previous centuries and cultures, governments have been able to start a war just on religious reasoning alone. Today, governments in the middle east have tried to rally a war against the west and hence a war against industrialism by religious reasonings. But, none of it has materialized. Why? Because the rest of the countries are industrialists. Why are the terrorists being destroyed? Why don't the religious countries side with the terrorists about the power hungry america? Becuase of the creature comforts of industrialism.

Try as environmentalists, and other people may, but technology is going to move forward irreversibly. Now, china is thinking seriously about space development, and I think hint's are that they've taken to Zubrin's mars program. They plan on making a heavy lift rocket plus a manned program. It's a short step from there to mars under Zubrin's ideas. The space race is about the commence.

Personally, I'd like to have some martian's permanently established before molecular nanotechnology arives and the fighting over that that will come about. Having a mars colony could make twichy people hesitant to push the button. Molecular nanotechnologies will be daimondoid, and the only way to stop somebody from having it is to nuke them.

oker56 · 2002-06-30 16:08:21

Consider this Mr Zubrin, you even point out the only reason exponential growth hasn't collapsed civilization under its own weight is technological development; in other words, humanity has made an irreversible move towards technological development. This can only move towards molecular nanotechnology and space colonization. Try as some may to stop it and make civilization stagnate, they cannot.

Consider each and every president. They all go in with their ideals, but they can never implement them because industrialism is bigger than they are. They try to cut taxes, they try to cut technology programs, but inevitably, they have to implement them.

Phobos · 2002-06-30 18:17:46

It's true that it would be suicidal for us to stop technological advancement considering that our population is to large to support otherwise, but I think a lot of groups like radical environmentalists and other luddites have the power to significantly delay the development of beneficial technology and the future of humanity in space with their scare tactics and lobbying power. A lot of these misanthrops hate humanity and will stop at nothing to see that we all die off somehow.

Christina · 2002-07-06 10:10:09

I have nothing against technological advancement that will benefit the majority.

It's the constant 'innovation' of stuff designed to be obsolete in two days time in order to keep the 'consumer society' going that I disaprove of.

X-boxes, Gameboys, what do they add to our society? a bunch of kids with twitchy thumbs getting fat on junk food in their bedrooms. Not the best basis for 'the Right Stuff'

Aetius · 2002-07-06 14:06:58

Yeah, but the violent video games help train the next generation of soldiers. Modern warfare is becoming more and more just like them.

I'd rather live in this society than any other. Global consumerist capitalism has its flaws, but it's still the best game in town, in my opinion.

Aetius · 2002-07-06 14:09:49

Besides, I'd rather let consumers (in MOST cases) get to decide what 'adds' to society. Today, ban X-Box and PlayStation...tomorrow, what's next? Porn? Perish the thought!

Phobos · 2002-07-06 15:10:23

Yeah, what if a commissar decides that spaceflight isn't in the interest of the majority? Those who go around claiming that this or that freedom must be destroyed because it's in the interest of the majority often couldn't careless about the majority. It's usually more about maintaining thier own power or point of view regardless of what the majority thinks.

oker56 · 2002-07-07 12:25:10

You are not a former military person are you. It isn't that bad, so long as those in charge have a good understanding of the mission. Instead of the militaries military mission, I'm proposing the mission be scientific and humanistic. Besides that, the person in power can't do anything untill it is scientifically proven. Not only that, but there can be many scientific groups just like there are today for each different scientific activity.

I could just as easily charge democracy of destroying the minority viewpoint. I personally don't want to be thrown off the cliff by the blindness of the majority.

Aetius · 2002-07-07 13:29:07

The Constitution and the Bill Of Rights will ensure that no one can legally 'throw you off a cliff'. One of the main reasons I never want Mars to be too politically independent of Earth is because there are so many people who want to re-establish global, dystopian, 'scientific' hard socialism there under a seemingly harmless guise. No way. Ever read George Orwell's "Animal Farm"?

The pigs who are simply 'more equal' than everyone else will just live on Mars instead of here.

Phobos · 2002-07-07 19:27:22

Well said Aetius. The last thing we need is another USSR setting up gulags and re-education camps to remind people that the state is their rightful owner and thus has every right to dispose of them as it sees fit.

oker56 · 2002-07-07 20:39:04

Mars will be politically dependant on earth for some time to come. No matter by me, the future will come if mankind establishes themselves on mars; from there, mankind will spread throughout the solar system like fireflies. Out in space, science reigns supreme which is probably why the politicians tryed their darndest to stop the possibility, or at least to keep it from happening in their lifetimes.

oker56 · 2002-07-07 22:36:17

as someone said on these boards, most of the martians will be scientists anyway's, so democracy won't turn into a crazed out process like here.

oker56 · 2002-07-07 22:37:24

Consider this, do you see Greenspan abusing his power?

Aetius · 2002-07-08 17:31:53

Greenspan is accountable to someone. When you disparage the democratic process as inimical to your vision of human civilization on Mars, what you seem to be saying between the lines is, "Tyranny is an acceptable outcome."

That's the vibe I'm disagreeing with here.

Aetius · 2002-07-08 18:55:20

Democracy on Mars, if it takes root there, will be every bit as 'crazed' as it here. Scientists have the same human strengths and weaknesses as everyone else.

oker56 · 2002-07-08 20:04:21

have you read my stuff elsewhere? The scientists can only say thing's involved in their field of specialty.

oker56 · 2002-07-08 20:08:44

in fact, the number of experts needed to run the show should give an indication of how many people should be in a group.

There was a time when democracy wasn't trusted either. I guess I should tell you the story about Kurt Godel while I'm at it. Einstein had trouble getting him to come over to the states because Godel proved that a dictatorship can come about in a democracy. By making it a team, a collective, where nobody is really in charge, just everybody doing their part of the survival game, then nobody get's to be in total control.

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#1 2002-06-30 16:03:31

Re: Science and society

#2 2002-06-30 16:08:21

Re: Science and society

#3 2002-06-30 18:17:46

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#4 2002-07-06 10:10:09

Re: Science and society

#5 2002-07-06 14:06:58

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#6 2002-07-06 14:09:49

Re: Science and society

#7 2002-07-06 15:10:23

Re: Science and society

#8 2002-07-07 12:25:10

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#9 2002-07-07 13:29:07

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#10 2002-07-07 19:27:22

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#11 2002-07-07 20:39:04

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#12 2002-07-07 22:36:17

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#13 2002-07-07 22:37:24

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#14 2002-07-08 17:31:53

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#15 2002-07-08 18:55:20

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#16 2002-07-08 20:04:21

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#17 2002-07-08 20:08:44

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