Spinning the Spanish election - Another thought

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-20 01:15:36

So the US should see OIL independance as the ultimate solution, unfortunatly long term. Reconverting the all automobile park to H2 car or electric car can probably be spread over tens of years, not less. Nevertheless years after year, the oil importation would decrease, and the saoudis would start to seriously worry about their status as the source of their power slowly evaporates.

Exactly right. And until the Administration realises and acts seriously toward this end our efforts will be the sort of blundering half measures we have seen to date. Not an absolute failure by any stretch, but not a shining example of perfection either.

wonder how much financial support for al Qaeda comes from private parties in Egypt? The Egyptian President has done a good job of suppressing Islamicists in Egypt yet he is now quite elderly and has no obvious successor.
What if (after the current leader dies) Egyptian factions more openly supports radical Islam? (Not the government which is paid billions in annual US bribes not to fight Israel - - but rather support from wealthy private Egyptians now being suppressed by the strong Egyptian President)
Does our occupation of Iraq help or hurt on that potential battleground?

This is a valid point which needs to be considered, however more as a variable than as a fulcrum for the decison whether or not to act. We need to plan for contigencies, but if we don't act because of such risks we will be falling into that same "don't provoke them and they'll leave us alone" mentality that affects too many already. It is a path of defeat and death. Egypt may become a problem in the future, but a foreseen difficulty is much better than a problem ignored out of fear.

Which brings us back to the Spain situation. While I have limited information on the mood of the Spanish people of late, I suspect that more was at work than a simple reaction to the terrorist attacks. However, the election results will be interpreted as terrorism working, not least of all by the terrorists themselves. And that is the uncomfortable truth we're going to have to come to grips with, terrorism does work, unless one is as committed to victory as completely as the terrorists are. They will be encouraged by the Socialist victory and they will be emboldened. We need to sharpen our defenses and steel our resolve. More is coming.

Euler · 2004-03-20 02:08:22

terrorism does work, unless one is as committed to victory as completely as the terrorists are.

Terrorism also fails if the terrorists are ignored. We must try to avoid making rash decisions under the guise of fighting terrorism. We can harm ourselves more through poorly thought out over reactions to terrorism than the terrorists could ever harm us by themselves.

Alt2War · 2004-03-20 03:48:04

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/20/polit … NE.html?hp

WASHINGTON, March 19 — Senior Clinton administration officials called to testify next week before the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks say they are prepared to detail how they repeatedly warned their Bush administration counterparts in late 2000 that Al Qaeda posed the worst security threat facing the nation — and how the new administration was slow to act.
They said the warnings were delivered in urgent post-election intelligence briefings in December 2000 and January 2001 for Condoleezza Rice, who became Mr. Bush's national security adviser; Stephen Hadley, now Ms. Rice's deputy; and Philip D. Zelikow, a member of the Bush transition team, among others.
One official scheduled to testify, Richard A. Clarke, who was President Bill Clinton's counterterrorism coordinator, said in an interview that the warning about the Qaeda threat could not have been made more bluntly to the incoming Bush officials in intelligence briefings that he led.
At the time of the briefings, there was extensive evidence tying Al Qaeda to the bombing in Yemen two months earlier of an American warship, the Cole, in which 17 sailors were killed.
"It was very explicit," Mr. Clarke said of the warning given to the Bush administration officials. "Rice was briefed, and Hadley was briefed, and Zelikow sat in." Mr. Clarke served as Mr. Bush's counterterrorism chief in the early months of the administration, but after Sept. 11 was given a more limited portfolio as the president's cyberterrorism adviser.
The sworn testimony from the high-ranking Clinton administration officials — including Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen and Samuel R. Berger, Mr. Clinton's national security adviser — is scheduled for Tuesday and Wednesday.

Police and Intelligence are the best means to foil terrorism, as long as we are dilligent.

If america continues to take radical stances in it's global interactions, and maintians a "with us or against us" demand on the world, than america risks having terrorists being percieved as on the side of reason and common sense.

France, Breat Britian, Germany, nearly all of Europe, have had serious issues with terrorism. They have all had success and failures. But in the end police work and intelligence matched with dilligence have foiled many many more terrorist attack attempts than they have missed.

The approach of Israel on the Palistinians and Russians on the Chechnians, one of the heavy handed military approach, have not been successful. They tend to incite more radicalism and bog a nation into ceaseless rounds of violence. A suicide bombing will provoke a military response that will undoubtably kill innocents in its wake. Those innocents and their immediate social circles become more easily swayed into radical violent action, and the circle continues.

The first approach of Law and Order, Intelligence, and Dilligence, though not perfect, works more often than not.

The second approach, the one of endless circles of cruel and vicious violence, does not work.

60 Minutes put out a press release about it's sunday show:

[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/ … 7356.shtml]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/ … 7356.shtml

Former White House terrorism advisor Richard Clarke tells Lesley Stahl that on September 11, 2001 and the day after - when it was clear Al Qaeda had carried out the terrorist attacks - the Bush administration was considering bombing Iraq in retaliation. Clarke's exclusive interview will be broadcast on 60 MINUTES Sunday March 21 (7:00-8:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.
Clarke was surprised that the attention of administration officials was turning toward Iraq when he expected the focus to be on Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. "They were talking about Iraq on 9/11. They were talking about it on 9/12," says Clarke.
The top counter-terrorism advisor, Clarke was briefing the highest government officials, including President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, in the aftermath of 9/11. "Rumsfeld was saying we needed to bomb Iraq....We all said, 'but no, no. Al Qaeda is in Afghanistan," recounts Clarke, "and Rumsfeld said, 'There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan and there are lots of good targets in Iraq.' I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with [the 9/11 attacks],'" he tells Stahl.
Clarke goes on to explain what he believes was the reason for the focus on Iraq. "I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection [between Iraq and Al Qaeda] but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there, saying, 'We've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection,'" says Clarke.
Clarke, who advised four presidents, reveals more about the current administration's reaction to terrorism in his new book, "Against All Enemies."

This administration used 9/11 as a cover for an invasion of Iraq.

We can only speculate as to their motivations for the Invasion of the Iraq war, but Bush's Top Terrorist advisor on 9/11 was baffled as to the link between terrorism and Iraq.

The apologist here make some preatty hilarious claims: flypaper, the Honor of the UN, that "Everything has changed".

These reasons are the result of Cognitive Dissonence. 9/11 shocked us all, and some of us backed the president. trusted him wholeheartedly.

Now that it is PLAN AS DAY that the president misled us into an unjust, unprovoked invasion of a soverign nation killing 10s of thousands of innocent people with as of today no net gain (in fact some argue quite strogly some net losses) in world stability, decrease in terror, or american homeland security.

It is too harsh of a contradiction for many of us to bear, the story we were told and the world view we had when we were led into this war and the reality as it unfolds around us. Our minds, when faced with jush harsh shattering of our concepts of the world around us, does and accepts whatever it takes to reconcile the difference.

So we end up with some of this mental contortion and jibberish like we see today.

Hitler said "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one."

And thats where we are today. A nation struggling to make sense of the twisted maze that was made of their world view. Dreading some of the conclusions that might ultimately come from untying the knot. That perhaps we are living under the most radical and dangerous american administration in our lifetimes.

One by one we see great men with impeccable lifetime achevements come out and try to tell us the truth, usually utterly destroying their careers in the process.

The world looks at America in total puzzlement, for outside of our intense cultural pressure and the resulting cognitive dissidence that followed, it could not be any more plain as day that we are in serious trouble here. Yet the president remains rather popular.

It has been stated by a former high level member of Bush's cabinet that Invasion of Iraq was top on their list of priorities since they gained office. Now it is being said by Bush's no. 1 man on Terrorism at the time of 9/11 that bush intended to invade Iraq on the days of and immediately after 9/11 dispite the total lack of connection.

dickbill · 2004-03-20 10:41:22

Which brings us back to the Spain situation. While I have limited information on the mood of the Spanish people of late, I suspect that more was at work than a simple reaction to the terrorist attacks. However, the election results will be interpreted as terrorism working, not least of all by the terrorists themselves. And that is the uncomfortable truth we're going to have to come to grips with, terrorism does work,

That's the spin american right-wings want to put on this election.
The truth is more simple, while spain has a big 'conservative' pool, the leftist pool is just bigger. Probably young spanish people make the biggest of that leftist-centrist pool. But whatever, right wingers are never happy. They don't like socialist in spain ? what about right wingers in France ? they won't like it either I bet.
This is all going out of control, by people who think they can control the world, using war as a political lever.

I would put all the Bushies neocons in the deset for 40 days, without food. Until the Snake comes and offer them the world, the power, the glory, the security, the richness, the money, the money the money the money: the Golden Calf.

Only one man had the guts to say No to that, and he doesn't work at the White House.

DonPanic · 2004-03-20 10:44:28

LO

And that is the uncomfortable truth we're going to have to come to grips with, terrorism does work, unless one is as committed to victory as completely as the terrorists are. They will be encouraged by the Socialist victory and they will be emboldened. We need to sharpen our defenses and steel our resolve. More is coming.

As long as USA hasn't GIVE ORDER to the Israelis to stop Palestine occupation with the same strength USA and UNO ordered Saddam to leave Koweit, ALL Arabs and Muslim will see USA as the main Islam ennemy, and you can speak a long time about your defense.
Up to muslim eyes, Bush and Sharon can be called "hitlers", YOU ARE THE THREAT.
As long as Europe has not taken economic sanctions at Israel,
we shall be seen as ennemies of the Arabs and of the Muslims.
That is our part of guilt.
Arabs say they offered peace, and as an answer, the Israelis kept on colonisation day after day, stealing more palestinian ground to give it to US and European jews.
That's mainly the reason for 9/11 tragedy.
For each palestinian death, we'll pay the price, for each iraki death, too.
C'mon keep blind let Sharon keep on stealing palestinian territory and prepare for defence !

dickbill · 2004-03-20 10:55:07

Up to muslim eyes, Bush and Sharon can be called "hitlers", YOU ARE THE THREAT.
As long as Europe has not taken economic sanctions at Israel,
we shal be seen as ennemies of the Arabs as the Muslims.
That is our part of guilt.

Don Panic, go back and flagellate youserlf more, because the Time of Armageddon is coming.
The Eye on Top of Pyramid and the Sons of David, which rule America, has seen and hoped for that moment for a long time.
Now the Times are coming.
I gotta go to flagellate a little bit.

Bill White · 2004-03-20 10:55:28

Which brings us back to the Spain situation. While I have limited information on the mood of the Spanish people of late, I suspect that more was at work than a simple reaction to the terrorist attacks. However, the election results will be interpreted as terrorism working, not least of all by the terrorists themselves. And that is the uncomfortable truth we're going to have to come to grips with, terrorism does work,
That's the spin american right-wings want to put on this election.
The truth is more simple, while spain has a big 'conservative' pool, the leftist pool is just bigger. Probably young spanish people make the biggest of that leftist-centrist pool. But whatever, right wingers are never happy. They don't like socialist in spain ? what about right wingers in France ? they won't like it either I bet.

My reading suggests that very few people who were going to vote pro-Anzar changed their minds. Rather a large number of otherwise apathetic people who might not have otherwise voted came out to vote for Zapatero.

This is all going out of control, by people who think they can control the world, using war as a political lever.

Is it true that both Poland and Spain will now lift the objection they made last year to certain terms in the EU constitution - - terms favored by France and Germany but opposed by Washington?

Palomar · 2004-03-20 11:06:47

As long as USA hasn't GIVE ORDER to the Israelis to stop Palestine occupation with the same strength USA and UNO ordered Saddam to leave Koweit, ALL Arabs and Muslim will see USA as the main Islam ennemy, and you can speak a long time about your defense.
Up to muslim eyes, Bush and Sharon can be called "hitlers", YOU ARE THE THREAT.

*I wish America would just get the hell out of the Israel-Palestine conflict, period. We never should have gotten involved in the first place!!! :angry:

However, I do get a kick out of Arabs in general. No matter what a specific issue is (Jordan or Iraq or Kuwait, etc.), somehow they always drag Palestine into the picture.

I think Palestine sometimes (often?) serves as a "straw man" for the Arab side in arguments and etc., don't you think? "We're mad at the West, let's wave the Palestinian flag around a bit!"

Frankly, knowing human nature, I doubt the average non-Palestinian Arab gives flying f*ck about their poor cousins in Palestine (except, again, when they can use the Palestinian issue as a point of debate or for huffing and puffing at the West). If they did truly care, the oil-rich Arabs would surely have placed a big Welcome Mat at the doors of THEIR nations by now for the beleaguered Palestinians, don't you think?

(Of course, I could be wrong.)

Dickbill, hand me a riding crop -- I'm going to flagellate a bit too!

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2004-03-20 11:08:13

LO

Don Panic, go back and flagellate youserlf more

I'm not flagellating, as a Vietnam born one, I can fiercely attack and defend. Dont you think I'am a flagellating pacifist.
I never said I did like Islam. I've already said that just the way they prostate to pray trends to lead them to prostate before dictators too.
The matter is how USA is seen in islamic world and why some people decide to turn into an human bombs.
Clean hands F15 pilots dropping napalm bombs are never terrorists.
They just perform a job...
I try to see the other's motivations, if you cant do that you should be a very poor chessplayer, and up to see things closer, I've travelled to Israel where I met very nice pacific people as well as curled hair black hated fascists.
May be your parents didn't suffer german army occupation.
If they did, did they liked it ?

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-20 11:52:36

Frankly, knowing human nature, I doubt the average non-Palestinian Arab gives flying f*ck about their poor cousins in Palestine (except, again, when they can use the Palestinian issue as a point of debate or for huffing and puffing at the West). If they did truly care, the oil-rich Arabs would surely have placed a big Welcome Mat at the doors of THEIR nations by now for the beleaguered Palestinians, don't you think?

Yes, exactly! The Palenstinian/Israeli conflict is its own little problem that while contributing to the terrorism situation for the US is by no stretch of the imagination the root cause. It's only when bin Laden and his ilk want to whip up the entire Arab world into a Jihad against the United States of America that the plight of the Palestinians get's dragged out along with all the other usual gripes, none of which really matter. Infidel troops in the Holy Land, remember how that used to be at the top of the list? We pulled out of Saudi Arabia, strangely the terrorists found other thigs to hate us for, so much fo trying to be reasonable. When some jackass flies a plane into a building to kill Americans it's not because the Israelis took the Paletinian's land, which itself is a historically dubious claim depending on how far back you want to go.

As long as USA hasn't GIVE ORDER to the Israelis to stop Palestine occupation with the same strength USA and UNO ordered Saddam to leave Koweit, ALL Arabs and Muslim will see USA as the main Islam ennemy, and you can speak a long time about your defense.

Don, so are you suggesting that the US has the right and duty to force a sovereign nation (Israel) to comply with demands against its will? The slope is getting mighty slippery here... Opposition agument getting murky...

France, Breat Britian, Germany, nearly all of Europe, have had serious issues with terrorism. They have all had success and failures. But in the end police work and intelligence matched with dilligence have foiled many many more terrorist attack attempts than they have missed.
The approach of Israel on the Palistinians and Russians on the Chechnians, one of the heavy handed military approach, have not been successful.

Alt, there is one big factor you've missed here. The terrorists attacking Russia and Israel do so because they have very specific grievances with those two countries. France, Britain and Germany get a more generalized "America by proxy" terrorism. No terrorists are rushing to blow themselves up in the Jihad to destroy the oppression of France. At the risk of offending some of our parcipants here, Europe just isn't that big a player in this at this point in history. The Spanish may beg to differ at the moment, but that attack was directed just as much if not more at the US than at Spain. I know, little consolation, but we aren't the ones indiscriminately killing civilians, despite the unsubstantiated figures Alt quotes from time to time.

Police work can stop certain terror plots, but it can't normally work beyond the cell in question and it can't effectively eliminate the people behind it. It erects barriers to intelligence sharing and gives the terrorists protections that only serve to get more innocent people killed. Terrorism is an act of war.

May be your parents didn't suffer german army occupation.

No. My forefathers ended it. We do that sort of thing, when need arises. Some would argue we're doing the same work now.

Bill White · 2004-03-20 12:06:53

No. My forefathers ended it. We do that sort of thing, when need arises. Some would argue we're doing the same work now.

My complaint is that we are not taking the threat seriously enough. That fellow cornered (maybe) in Pakistan is an Egyptian born doctor of a good Cairo family.

Cairo and Saudi Arabia is where effective and global radical Islamic terrorism is bred, not in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan. After 9/11 NATO offered an Article 5 resolution for a genuine coordinated multi-lateral war on al Qaeda. Bush said no thanks, we will do it ourselves.

Now we whine that Europe won't follow us.

Byron · 2004-03-20 12:50:31

However, I do get a kick out of Arabs in general. No matter what a specific issue is (Jordan or Iraq or Kuwait, etc.), somehow they always drag Palestine into the picture.
I think Palestine sometimes (often?) serves as a "straw man" for the Arab side in arguments and etc., don't you think? "We're mad at the West, let's wave the Palestinian flag around a bit!"
Frankly, knowing human nature, I doubt the average non-Palestinian Arab gives flying f*ck about their poor cousins in Palestine (except, again, when they can use the Palestinian issue as a point of debate or for huffing and puffing at the West). If they did truly care, the oil-rich Arabs would surely have placed a big Welcome Mat at the doors of THEIR nations by now for the beleaguered Palestinians, don't you think?

I agree 100% about how the Arabs view the Palestinians...and this illustrates why the U.S. really should stay out of the Isreal / Palestinian conflict altogether, as this is a game no one gets to win, ever. Instead, the U.S. should work with the rest of the world to deal with terrorist threats, both present and future, not to mention keeping the Arab nations in check along with a defensive Israel. The policies we're pursuing now, with our attitude of "everyone else be dammed" really has the potential to come back to bite us in a very big way, and soon.

I'd hate to see us in a situation when we might actually *need* the assistance of other nations in dealing with the Arab powder keg...because we just might not get it... ???

B

dickbill · 2004-03-20 12:57:26

Dickbill, hand me a riding crop -- I'm going to flagellate a bit too!

Ahhh ! at least somebody to flagellate with me, ex-adorator of Cthulhu, but better that than nothing.

Bill White · 2004-03-20 13:24:38

The perils of fighting a two front war!

[http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re … p?ID=12233]http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re … p?ID=12233

FP: Mr. Frum, in the book, you push for America pursuing its foreign policy without the European governments if necessary. Is the EU actually becoming somewhat of an American enemy?
Frum: Europe is not an enemy - but the United States has enemies within Europe, and they are trying to transform the EU into an adversarial power bloc against the United States. It's precisely because Richard and I value the North Atlantic alliance that we are trying to alert Americans to the potential threat that the wrong kind of EU could pose. We have to rally our friends within Europe. We have to raise their awareness of the sinister intentions of this French government - and to make it clear to them that they can't have it both ways: that following the French lead will have the most serious consequences for the Western alliance.
FP: Mr. Perle, what exactly is France’s problem? Why do the French prefer to get into bed with monsters rather than side with us against the forces of tyranny? There is some kind of dark pathology here. Could you give us a little insight into the mindset of the French in this context?
Perle: When the issue is put properly and the facts are clear I believe most Frenchmen will come down on the same side as us. But often the facts are not clear. On Iraq, the French press was an abomination, rife with distortion on almost every element of the issue. Anyone reading the French press or watching French television would have concluded that we were acting out of base motives (mostly oil) and without regard for the hundreds of thousands of innocents who would perish in a long bloody war at the end of which the Middle East would be aflame. The current French government, under Chirac and Villepain, believes that it can build Europe as a “counterweight” to the United States. It loathes and fears the emergence of the United States as the sole superpower and seeks to diminish our standing and influence in the world. So it inclines toward opposition to any enterprise that we lead.

Now look at this -

[http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200 … 5636-3531r]http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200 … 5636-3531r

France seems to be doing rather well with its plans for a unified Europe. Consider that after 9/11 NATO offered an Article 5 resolution for a genuine multi-lateral war against al Qaeda and Bush said NO - - presumably because he did not want to encourage the idea that the United States was part of and constrained by international institutions.

Now, there is a good chance Bush will leave office with our position of global supremacy significantly weakened compared to what it was when he took office. A united Europe may be a large part of the Bush legacy.

= = =

In America, the Polish commitment to stay the course in Iraq is what is being played up, however can anyone doubt that the Polish President's comments that Bush "took him for a ride" on WMD are related to Warsaw's decision to reach compromise on the EU constitution, a result Paris favors and Washington opposes?

DonPanic · 2004-03-20 13:44:23

LO

Don, so are you suggesting that the US has the right and duty to force a sovereign nation (Israel) to comply with demands against its will? The slope is getting mighty slippery here... Opposition agument getting murky...

Let me change just a detail in this quote to show you how surrealistic it is ???

Don, so are you suggesting that the US has the right and duty to force a sovereign nation (Irak) to comply with demands against its will? The slope is getting mighty slippery here... Opposition agument getting murky...

Indeed ! UNO 242 resolution is still valuable, as a member of UNO, shouldn't USA also make that resolution respected ?

May be your parents didn't suffer german army occupation.
No. My forefathers ended it. We do that sort of thing, when need arises.

Thanks to them, each July 14th, part of US regiments should parade on Champs Elysées as a reminding for those fallen on Normandy beaches.
That was a question to Dickbill
I think that as soon as Bush will be out, french troops should help secure Irakis.

Some would argue we're doing the same work now.

Slight difference, Irak was under irakis' dictature, not ruled by foreigner occupants.
---
Perle is a paranoîac, Paris wants Europe for an equal dialogue with USA, not to confront USA. And full seat for Europe, not the folding seat.

dickbill · 2004-03-20 14:35:44

Thanks to them, each July 14th, part of US regiments should parade on Champs Elysées as a reminding for those fallen on Normandy beaches.
That was a question to Dickbill

I know I know, don't take me too seriously.
I agree with you, and I disagree with the notion of pre-emptive war. As you said, international police with UN supervision yes, pre-emptive war, no.

What I said cryptically (because the eye on top of the pyramid is watching us) is that maybe, these old stories of Judeo Massonic complot, they might be true after all.

dickbill · 2004-03-20 14:57:56

What I said cryptically (because the eye on top of the pyramid is watching us) is that maybe, these old stories of Judeo Massonic complot, they might be true after all.

and if it is true, then maybe we should reinstall the Holly Papal Inquisition and Exorcism.

Take Richard Perle, throw him in the river with a 100 kg stone around the neck. If he had trade with the devil, he must contain some evil substance that make him lighter, and he must float, and then be purified on the stake.

We must go back to basics.

Bill White · 2004-03-20 15:06:28

What I said cryptically (because the eye on top of the pyramid is watching us) is that maybe, these old stories of Judeo Massonic complot, they might be true after all.
and if it is true, then maybe we should reinstall the Holly Papal Inquisition and Exorcism.
Take Richard Perle, throw him in the river with a 100 kg stone around the neck. If he had trade with the devil, he must contain some evil substance that make him lighter, and he must float, and then be purified on the stake.
We must go back to basics.

Dont bother. Perle frightens even the Poles, which is good for Chirac, no?

Mundaka · 2004-03-20 15:34:21

dickbill · 2004-03-20 15:43:13

What I say metaphorically is that, in my opinion, these guys called neo-cons, with their doctrine of preemptive war, they practice a modern esoterism.

With the help of a compass and and ruler, maybe, or with the hidden meanings found in the Kaballa, they do calculus. Like:

If we invade that country A, with a price of X thousands deads and Y billions dollars, then we might save Z lives in that country K, plus or minus squared root of X deads, we must end up to reach our goal with X-Z deads acceptable by f% of the americans and g% of muslims, this is being true for 50<Y<100 $billions.
They might think that they can rule on minds and people, trading life and money for power. They might succeed a little bit, as the Devil oftens give you peanuts in exchange of your soul, to make you believe that you are right, that your calculus was exact. They might also end up with a completely different outcome:

They want to eradicate muslim integrism by force ?
they just create a new area of Christian Integrism and intolerance to counterbalance a stronger Muslim and Sionic Extremism.
(maybe the movie the "Passion" is just an advertissement, beware !)
Integrisms against Integrisms, only the neo-cons know where we go.

They want to resolve the middle orient problems ? fine, the new Papal Inquisition declares that since both parties cannot reach a peacefull agreement in the Gaza band, then ALL parties and all human soul MUST evacuate the GAZA band, and burn it to the root, and that the land will belong to the first root of grass, carried by the winds, wich will seed again the area.

Other ideas anybody ?

Bill White · 2004-03-20 15:53:26

Not all Christians follow Jerry Falwell or Mel Gibson. Me, for example.

dickbill · 2004-03-20 16:05:14

Not all Christians follow Jerry Falwell or Mel Gibson. Me, for example.

I am amazed to see the success of this movie.
I havn't seen it myself but I wonder, Is it real coincidence ?
Could it be that all these repeatitive endless stories about muslim suicides/Sharron retaliation/Israel extension/muslim suicide/etc could reactivate the old christian mysticism ?

Just a reaction: christians feel trapped between Islamic and Jewish ideologic integrism, so they go back to their own values to avoid to be crushed.

For the Gaza band, you don't like the idea ?

Bill White · 2004-03-20 16:09:23

Not all Christians follow Jerry Falwell or Mel Gibson. Me, for example.
I am amazed to see the success of this movie.
I havn't seen it myself but I wonder, Is it real coincidence ?
Could it be that all these repeatitive endless stories about muslim suicides/Sharron retaliation/Israel extension/muslim suicide/etc could reactivate the old christian mysticism ?
Just a reaction: christians feel trapped between Islamic and Jewish ideologic integrism, so they go back to their own values to avoid to be crushed.
For the Gaza band, you don't like the idea ?

[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … rafat_dc_3]Arafat says Passion not anti-Jew

[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … te_dispute]Married couple arrested for fighting over Passion

STATESBORO, Ga. - A couple who got into a dispute over a theological point after watching "The Passion of the Christ" were arrested after the argument turned violent.
The two left the movie theater debating whether God the Father in the Holy Trinity was human or symbolic, and the argument heated up when they got home, Melissa Davidson said.
It was the dumbest thing we've ever done," she said.
Davidson, 34, and her husband, Sean Davidson, 33, were charged with simple battery on March 11 after the two called police on each other. They were released on $1,000 bail.

What can I possibly say?

dickbill · 2004-03-22 09:37:12

I was right for the french elections : the moderate right party reculed, the socialists and other leftists were stable or slightly progressed and the so called far-right party, the equivalent of the american republican party (sorry but that's the truth, you don't like it, but that's the truth, the french FN is just a conservative, republican party, called far-right by leftist media) significantly improved its score.
Probably people realize that in a world ruled by extremists, you cannot afford anymore to be the nice guy, moderate and all that.

I predict that if Bush wins the elections, you gonna have a huge surge of 'republican conservative FN-like' in all europe. If Kerry wins, then the FN will stabilize and european moderates will regain their power.

DonPanic · 2004-03-28 17:53:25

LO

moderate right party reculed, the socialists and other leftists were stable or slightly progressed and the so called far-right party, the equivalent of the american republican party (sorry but that's the truth, you don't like it, but that's the truth, the french FN is just a conservative, republican party, called far-right by leftist media) significantly improved its score.

2nd round of french elections contradicts you, Dickbill
Chirac's party gets severely spanked. Main reason is unexisting employment policy.
Pink socialist party wins in 20 out of 22 french administrative regions' councils,
total of left votes equals right + extreme right parties.
Openly racist FN party deflating.
Froggies keep on being unpredictable, even to themselves :laugh:

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Re: Spinning the Spanish election - Another thought

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