Debug: Database connection successful Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space (Page 11) / Interplanetary transportation / New Mars Forums

New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum has successfully made it through the upgraded. Please login.

#251 2004-03-12 16:40:28

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

*sigh* No... and you know what? Almost no ionic or metalic solid can block molecules as small as hydrogen (this includes all metals and metal oxides) nor can most molecular solids, and those that can are either too heavy, too brittle, or too reactive (will eat through) or otherwise won't work.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#252 2004-03-12 16:40:56

SBird
Banned
Registered: 2004-03-10
Posts: 490

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Diamond is as good as you're going to get.  You can go through the entire periodic table and the answer you'll get in every case is no.  You are simply pushing your system at a level where matter starts falling apart under the stress.  There is nothing you can do about this.

Offline

Like button can go here

#253 2004-03-12 16:43:55

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Yeah diamond and aromatic carbon tops the list and they will probably react, plus there are not any perfectly crystaline polymers so plastics or other macromolecules won't work, and glasses or other similar covalents are too permiable.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#254 2004-03-12 16:54:21

SBird
Banned
Registered: 2004-03-10
Posts: 490

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Plus, diamond is the only material that has the necessary strength.  Boron carbide might be up there too but it's even mroe brittle than diamond.

Offline

Like button can go here

#255 2004-03-12 17:13:01

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

What are the biggest man made diamonds they can make?

Offline

Like button can go here

#256 2004-03-12 17:50:54

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Chunks the size of a quarter for almost-perfect, or thin films inches accross.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#257 2004-03-12 18:04:05

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Not much displacement there. Need at least a dozen of them to add up.

Offline

Like button can go here

#258 2004-03-12 18:07:00

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Did I mention they are a mere fraction of an inch thick? You would need hundreds or thousands of them, and you can't "glue" diamonds together, they won't bond.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#259 2004-03-12 18:24:38

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

How is it they get 800,000 psi to make diamonds?

Offline

Like button can go here

#260 2004-03-12 18:41:11

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

By focusing a modestly powerful hydraulic press down to an area the size of a pea and heating it up... and no, scaling it is up is not easy, and the time it would take to grow the diamond would inrease exponentially with size. Plus the number of pump-shattering defects too.

And even if you can make the diamond, you still can't make a pump out of it that will handle that kind of pressure because there is no known way to seal the joints.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#261 2004-03-12 18:43:14

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Oh and they make big diamonds via a process called vapor deposition, but this is slow, energy hungry, and makes only fair quality crystals.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#262 2004-03-12 18:47:48

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

What kind of material do they use in the pump to get the 800,000 psi to make the diamond?

Offline

Like button can go here

#263 2004-03-12 19:16:38

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

The die? Silicon carbide I think, but that asside, let me remind you... There is no practical material to make the pump from, no such material is possible if diamond reacts with high-press. liquid hydrogen, which I think it likly would.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#264 2004-03-12 19:46:03

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Tungsten will work 400+Gpa does not react with H2 or Carbon.

Offline

Like button can go here

#265 2004-03-12 20:21:28

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Tungsten? 400Gpa? Sounds mighty high to me... and though it might not react with ultra-high pressure liquid hydrogen in question, I bet it still permiate, and make it crack.

Boom again.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#266 2004-03-12 20:24:26

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

If it is bonded to another supporting structure it won't crack. No boom.

Offline

Like button can go here

#267 2004-03-12 20:35:11

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

I guess you aren't big on reading previous posts are you?

Tungsten is a big atom. Hydrogen is a small one. Tungsten atoms are roughly sphereical, and when packed shoulder-to-shoulder in its metal crystal  has space between the atoms. This space is big enough for the little tiny hydrogens to slip past...

[http://www.webelements.com/webelements/ … /xtal.html]http://www.webelements.com/webelements/ … /xtal.html

...and when you have enough of them, its like water into a dry sponge, it will expand and get flimsy. Unfortunatly tungsten is a metal crystal latice and not a chunk of porus rubber, and instead of expanding and retaining shape, it will just shatter on the atomic level and eat away at the surface of the pump.

Boom.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#268 2004-03-12 21:03:42

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

After how long?

Offline

Like button can go here

#269 2004-03-12 21:06:12

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

At these pressure levels... hours, perhaps days. A few weeks if your lucky. A diamond press is a hours-to-days process, hydrogen diffusion should be pretty quick compared to the trace nitrogen diffusion in commertial gems.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#270 2004-03-12 21:09:06

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

So change it out, and put a new one in before failure.

Offline

Like button can go here

#271 2004-03-12 21:17:05

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Ummmm you want to shut down your tube, which means emptying out a pipe 200 miles long under extreme pressure full of a hyper-flamable gas... every few hours?

Mmmm. No.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#272 2004-03-12 21:22:15

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Hey when you shut the pump off what happens to the 355,000 psi in the tube?

Offline

Like button can go here

#273 2004-03-12 21:38:12

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

If you power off the pump, a little would boil off, but it would largely stay put. Though it would be under pressure, so it would still eat the pump material.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

#274 2004-03-12 21:45:44

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

Ok before you shut it off you start the other pump. The pressure is gone now in the pipe because the top is open and  exposed to the universe which is under a vacuum.

Offline

Like button can go here

#275 2004-03-12 21:51:24

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Physics transfers fuel inside carbon nano tube - fuel into space

*smacks forehead*

Last I checked, there were eighteen pages previous to this one that clearly explain why the "vacuum of the universe" has not one single thing to do with the pressure of the liquids or gasses under Earth's powerful gravity well. NO, there is nothing magic about the other end being in LEO that will magicly suck out all the hydrogen, the pressure will remain.

I also really wonder if the Tungsten can handle these kinds of conditions in the first place.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Offline

Like button can go here

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB