Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

Bill White · 2004-01-21 15:14:14

clark writes:

But here is something on your plans favor: Bush just told a bunch of NASA employee's that they are out of a job by the end of the decade. Now, I would like to think that some of them just might be motivated enough to make this happen, and perhaps save their very own job. Carrot and stick approach?

Spot on! I pretty much agree with all of your post.

And I freely admit my scenario is "grasping at straws" - - and that I am not a rocket scientist even if I sometimes play one on teh intraweb. (sic)

But anyway, unless NASA pulls something out of their hat, the shuttle and all shuttle derived vehicles will be dead come 2010. Maybe sooner if Michoud scraps the shuttle tank tooling after they produce the last tank.

Once the shuttle program is dead, billions of dollars will be saved each by closing down the infrastructure related to the shuttle and the Delta IV based CEV will be our ride into space.

And yes, we can formulate a Mars mission using Delta IV but it won't be MarsDirect unless a new Congress funds a new HLLV and new ground support infrastructure at some point in the future.

clark · 2004-01-22 07:14:16

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11524
[http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11524]NASA budget projection
Bill, et al.; the link provided above is to the NASA budget chart to 2020, which details where all the money is going, and for which overarching program.

[http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Space/2004/ … 60-cp.html]http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Space/2004/ … 60-cp.html

Future of International Space Station murky as NASA turns to moon and Mars

If you go to the above link, it gives a little news report on the future of ISS and our internation partners. Looking at that, it seems that our international partners pretty much have to go along with our moon and mars plan, whatever that may be.

Without the ISS, most of the world's space agencies don't have much of a human space program. Rather insidious if you ask me.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-22 09:00:22

Just think, with "Bill's" idea, that whole red swath could be disappeared.

clark · 2004-01-22 10:58:32

[=http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4018250/]NASA details new space goals to staff

MSNBC reports on the information being presented to NASA employee's about the new space policy.

The report shows current funding levels for ISS continuing through fiscal year 2016, while NASA plans to ?refocus research to exploration factors affecting astronaut health?. The presentation adds that NASA also will ?acquire crew and cargo systems, as necessary, during and after availability of shuttle.?
The biggest budgetary shift is scheduled for fiscal years 2010 to 2012, when annual space shuttle spending drops from $4.5 billion to zero and the allocation to ?exploration missions? doubles. A near-billion-dollar category called ?ISS Transport? continues for years beyond this date.

While NASA?s next budget, due Feb. 6, will include some realignment of funding, the biggest re-allocations will not occur until the FY06 budget, which will ?address uncertainties in implementing the vision.?
Ultimate human missions to Mars are not given a specific schedule. ?Timing of human missions to Mars,? the presentation explains, ?will be based on available budgetary resources, experience and knowledge gained from lunar exploration, discoveries by robotic spacecraft at Mars and other solar system locations, and development of required technologies and know-how.?
Many of these goals are not yet within existing capabilities, the presentation acknowledges, laying out a plan for NASA to develop new technology in the areas of ?power generation, propulsion, life support, and other key capabilities required to support more distant, more capable, and/or longer duration human and robotic exploration?.

Bill White · 2004-02-05 09:52:20

Last August Zubrin [http://www.speculist.com/archives/000099.html]discussed these issues.

For the record, my fear that killing the shuttle variants would kill Mars Direct was deduced without reading this article.

Or going to the 2003 convention.

= = =

Heh! Its like "Kilroy was here"

There is nowhere on Mars we can go without Zubrin having been there first. :laugh:

clark · 2004-02-05 10:39:36

Heh! Its like "Kilroy was here"

You know, that's a gimmik I wanted to use. Little Martian tradiation if you will... first person to get wherever, leaves a little inscription with their name...

Bill White · 2004-02-11 20:18:12

An e-mail broadcast to Mars Society members:

Zubrin DC Tour a Major Success
February 11, 2004
For further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at
[http://www.marssociety.org]www.marssociety.org.
On February 5-6, Mars Society president Robert Zubrin visited
Washington DC, meeting with numerous influential people and
participating in two public events.
Among those meeting with Dr. Zubrin were Senator Sam Brownback (R-
KS), the Chairman of the Senate Space Subcommittee, Senator Bill
Nelson (D-FL), the leading Democratic Party space advocate, aides to
Senator John Kerry (D-MA), Senator John McCain (R-AZ), Representative
Mark Udall (D-CO), and several other staffers. In addition, Dr.
Zubrin met with Presidential Science Advisor Dr. John Marburger and
members of his staff, as well as with a representative of the White
House Office of the President.
In all his meetings, Zubrin stressed the need to put the new space
initiative on an accelerated cost-effective track leading to human
Mars landings no later than 2020. This can be done by designing the
initiative not as a sequence of uncoordinated projects ? first
CEV, then Moonbase, then Mars ? but as a coherent set of hardware to
designed to enable Mars exploration, with Earth orbital ferry
functions and Lunar excursions enabled by a modular subset of the
Mars flight systems. NASA, Zubrin said, should be instructed by
Congress to develop a cost and schedule constrained end-to-end plan
for the program of this type this year, so that the plan could be
placed on the desks of the President and Congress- whoever they might
be - in January 2005, and the entire enterprise then be considered in
the cool light of reason outside of the political free-fire zone of
the election year. "Don't say `no,' say `show
me,'" Zubrin said.
In addition, Zubrin discussed the need to reverse NASA Administrator
Sean O'Keefe's horrible decision to desert the Hubble Space
Telescope program. Zubrin pointed out that the decision to abort the
most successful science program in human history was irrational from
both the fiscal and risk analysis point of view, and presented a
document containing data provided by Shuttle program engineers that
showed strong evidence that Hubble missions are not more dangerous
than ISS missions. In addition, Zubrin argued forcefully that the
decision to flee from Hubble completely undermines the President's
new space initiative, as clearly, if we are too risk-adverse to send
a Shuttle mission to Hubble, then human missions to the Moon or Mars
are completely ruled out.
Virtually everyone Zubrin met with was highly receptive to most or
all of these arguments. A member of Dr. Marburger's staff kept
Zubrin for a full hour after the thirty-minute official meeting ended
to ask for more details, and took a copy of the comparative risk
document to pass on the Admiral Hal Gehman, who is currently reviewing
O'Keefe's decision from that point of view. The meetings with
Senators Brownback and Nelson were especially exciting, as both of
these gentlemen made clear the level of their interest in the Mars
Society's ideas by rescheduling their meetings with Dr. Zubrin to
alternative premises after their offices had to be evacuated due to
the ricin attack on the Senate, and both extended their meetings with
the Mars Society president well beyond the originally scheduled time.
In addition to the paper on Hubble risk, Zubrin also gave every
person he met with a copy of Robbin Kerrod's magnificent
book "Hubble: Mirror of the Universe," which presents the
space telescopes great discoveries in spectacular form, with well-
written prose and incredible images. The publisher, Firefly Books,
was kind enough to donate 30 copies to the Mars Society for this
purpose, and every one of them was given out to someone powerful.
On the night of Thursday, Feb 5, Zubrin also debated Dr. Robert Park,
the nation's most vocal opponent of human space exploration, to a
packed house containing many congressional staffers and other
government officials at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in
Washington DC. By most accounts, Zubrin won hands down. But you can
decide for yourself, as there is a complete transcript of the debate
posted at the EPPC website at:
[http://www.eppc.org/conferences/pubID.2 … script.asp]http://www.eppc.org/conferences/pubID.2 … script.asp
Media wishing to obtain digital video of the debate can also do so by
contacting the EPPC.
On Friday night, February 6, Zubrin concluded his DC tour by giving a
public talk to an audience of several hundred people at the National
Geographic Society. In his talk, Zubrin discussed how we can get
humans to Mars in our time, and then presented the work the Mars
Society is doing at its Arctic and Desert stations to advance that
cause.
Overall, the trip dramatically demonstrated the increasing influence
of the Mars Society in Washington DC, made possible by the ongoing
work of members operating on the grass-roots level nationwide. So
keep it up, Mars Society, we are starting to break through.
In depth discussions of the Mars Society's political work to
advance the new space policy, make it cost-effective by focusing it
on Mars, and to make it real by rejecting the decision to desert
Hubble will take place at the 7th International Mars Society
Convention, Palmer House Hilton, Chicago IL, Aug 19-22, 2004.
For further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at
[http://www.marsssociety.org]www.marsssociety.org.

Join the Mars Society and you too can get such e-mails sent to you directly.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-12 04:56:45

Many thanks for that Bill!

Dr. Zubrin's genius becomes clearer to me each year. He has spent the lean years doing practical and very public work on Mars related problems, including the Arctic and desert research stations and the demonstrations of In-Situ-Propellant-Production which will be so useful to future crewed missions.
Now that President Bush has opened the door to human space exploration with his space initiative, Dr. Z. has the track record to step forward and make political hay while the Sun shines. He has the drive, the vision, and the knowledge, and he has purposefully set about establishing a set of unassailable practical credentials in the field as well.

I just love the guy!

dickbill · 2004-02-12 08:45:54

Join the Mars Society and you too can get such e-mails sent to you directly.

Nope, I got nothing.
I am a MS member though, and for 2 years now.

Palomar · 2004-02-12 09:16:59

Join the Mars Society and you too can get such e-mails sent to you directly.
Nope, I got nothing.
I am a MS member though, and for 2 years now.

*Ditto.

I checked my e-mail account which was registered with the Mars Society; I've not received the e-mail Bill shared here.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2004-02-12 10:31:35

Join the Mars Society and you too can get such e-mails sent to you directly.
Nope, I got nothing.
I am a MS member though, and for 2 years now.

E-mail Maggie Zubrin through the MS website and complain. :;):

I have kept an old AOL account from the time before I knew AOL just was not l33t. If you don't know l33t, don't worry about it.

Anyway, the Zubrins are AOL-ers also and since they send me broadcast e-mails they are on my "Buddy List" and my AOL screen tells me whenever they are on-line. Waaay cool.

It all b 2 l33t 4 me.

Palomar · 2004-02-12 10:39:38

Join the Mars Society and you too can get such e-mails sent to you directly.
Nope, I got nothing.
I am a MS member though, and for 2 years now.
E-mail Maggie Zubrin through the MS website and complain. :;):
I have kept an old AOL account from the time before I knew AOL just was not l33t. If you don't know l33t, don't worry about it.
Anyway, the Zubrins are AOL-ers also and since they send me broadcast e-mails they are on my "Buddy List" and my AOL screen tells me whenever they are on-line. Waaay cool.
It all b 2 l33t 4 me.

*I used to have AOL (years ago). The IM feature is great, but of course anyone can block incoming IM's...even if they are on someone's Buddy List.

AOL was "it" for me, when I first came online...I wouldn't go back to it, though.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2004-02-12 10:47:50

Nope, I got nothing.
I am a MS member though, and for 2 years now.
E-mail Maggie Zubrin through the MS website and complain. :;):
I have kept an old AOL account from the time before I knew AOL just was not l33t. If you don't know l33t, don't worry about it.
Anyway, the Zubrins are AOL-ers also and since they send me broadcast e-mails they are on my "Buddy List" and my AOL screen tells me whenever they are on-line. Waaay cool.
It all b 2 l33t 4 me.
*I used to have AOL (years ago). The IM feature is great, but of course anyone can block incoming IM's...even if they are on someone's Buddy List.
AOL was "it" for me, when I first came online...I wouldn't go back to it, though.
--Cindy

I don't use IM much. I prefer to re-read and edit my posts. I still post stupid things, just fewer of them, I hope. ???

I e-mailed Zubrin once yet I would never presume to IM them. I sincerely hope they have blocked all unknown IMs to give themselves time to actually work. Like I should be doing. :;):

dickbill · 2004-02-12 11:21:39

I received other mails from offcial MS members, and last year I was lucky enough to receive a letter with a poem from M. Zubrin, but that's about it. Ah, I forgot the acre ownership on Mars.
Now I would like to receive an offcial martian passport and the official martian citizenship and of course, more acres on Mars.

Bill White · 2004-02-12 15:53:40

Another Mars Society missive:

Political Action alert
Chris Carberry
Political Director, The Mars Society
marspolitics@y...
(617) 646-0523
For further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at [http://www.marssociety.org]www.marssociety.org.
To All:
We must not slow down our efforts to guarantee that humans to Mars remains on the agenda. We need to rally our forces to let Congress, and the likely Democratic nominee, know that there is broad support for the goals of the new space exploration initiative. We should accomplish this in the following ways.
1. The Aldridge Commission has provided a public venue for the public to provide their opinions. We need to fully utilize this site. [http://www.moontomars.org/notices/contact.asp]http://www.moontomars.org/notices/contact.asp We need to let them know that humans to Mars should occur no later than 2020. We should recommend that the hardware should be designed for a mission to Mars, and that a subset of that hardware should used and tested on the Moon.
2. We need to continue our efforts contacting Congress. Tell them we support the President's 2005 budget request. If this request fails, then we will not get an opportunity like this for some time. Questions concerning this effort should be referred to our Congressional Outreach coordinator, Scott DiPietro
(sdipietr@p...)
Recent Statement by Robert Zubrin : "The Mars Exploration budget would be funded at $690.9 million, an increase of $95.8 million over the current fiscal year. The vast majority of the funds ($515.6 million) would be used to develop technology that "supports new space exploration vision."
"Such technology development programs and flight test missions are valuable steps that could help open the way for initiating a human Mars exploration program. The Mars Society therefore strongly endorses these and related budget requests that are part of the plan for the new space exploration initiative, and urges congress to pass
the requested funding for these items for FY 05."
3. We need to make sure that the likely Democratic Presidential nominee, Senator John Kerry, knows that there is broad support for humans to Mars and if he is elected, he should support not merely continuing, but substantially improving where the previous administration left off.
National HeadquartersJohn Kerry for President, Inc.
519 C Street, NE
Washington, DC 20002
202-548-6800
202-548-6801 (fax)
[http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/]http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/
Only together can we help to make sure this plan is supported, and that it develops in a way that will get us to Mars by 2020.
Chris Carberry
Political Director, The Mars Society
marspolitics@y...
(617) 646-0523
for further information about the Mars Society, visit our website at [http://www.marssoociety.org]www.marssoociety.org

Let me add Bill White's personal opinion:

We can "do the Moon" by the mid twenty-teens and then launch to Mars by 2020 IF:

<1> We finish ISS starting with shuttle C and other shuttle derived such as Ares. This can be accomplished for much less than President Bush has budgeted for ISS completion via the orbiter. This becomes a two for one deal as we finish ISS and develop the heavy lift needed for Mars.

Isn't shuttle C the base stage underneath Ares? Develop shuttle C as an intermediate step towards Ares.

<2> Accelerate Project Constellation/CEV by a few years and send CEVs to the Moon sooner after LEO rendevouz with shuttle derived big ships. Use shuttle derived to deploy big permanent lunar bases.

<3> Develop NTR as fast as possible. Deploy the JIMO fission reactor by 2015 and man rate by 2020.

<4> Launch a Mars mission in 2020 assembled from one or two shuttle derived launches including an NTR stage with crew carried up by CEV. Either do Earth return via MarsDirect or lift to low Martian orbit with a Mars made propellant and rendevouz either with the old NTR stage parked in orbit or a new NTR stage carrying the Mars Two astronauts to Mars.

A MarsDirect chemical ERV could be the fallback option if the original NTR cannot remain functional, or the new NTR fails to arrive from Earth.

<5> Settle, settle, settle. . .

clark · 2004-02-12 16:19:46

I want you to understand where I'm coming from on this, maybe you can help me understand. Maybe someone can, I don't know, but I want all of this as much as anyone else here, yet I can't quiet the questions that make me think retiring the Shuttle immediately is a mistake.

And the Mars mission makes sense after the moon. Not before.

Bill White · 2004-02-12 16:30:25

And the Mars mission makes sense after the moon. Not before.

Dude - let this go. Many of us don't agree with you but even Dr. Zubrin has cried "Uncle" on this.

Uncle, Uncle, Uncle, Uncle, Uncle, Uncle. Moon first.

'kay?

clark · 2004-02-12 16:54:16

Sorry. I'm done.

realmacaw · 2004-02-14 02:28:16

How old is Dr. Zubrin? Does he want to be one of the astronauts to go to Mars?

It seems to me that he has more enthusiasm for a human Mars mission and better ideas for one than any other human on earth.

Therefore, we have a short WINDOW! If the U.S. is smart, they will utilize Dr. Zubrin now while we have him, while he is young enough and full of enough energy for this. It would be terrible to pospone 20+ years and have something happen to him and him die and only have his writings left to read. (It is the difference of having Einstein alive or dead. Writings alone are not enough). In life everything has a window. Dr. Zubrin must be fully utilized now. I say put him in charge of NASA right now, or at the very least, over the entire Mars Human Mission. If he is not fully utilized, it will be a terrible waste and delay the mission. How can we make this happen?

Brian.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-15 01:18:21

Brian, I see Dr. Zubrin in exactly the same way you do; he's a visionary, a genius, and a national treasure!

I very much hope, as you do, that his enthusiastic brilliance won't burn itself out hammering on the dull barriers of luddite ignorance and inertia which stand between humanity and its rightful place as a spacefaring civilisation.
???

RobS · 2004-02-17 15:39:25

By the way, *West Wing* sort of agrees with this idea. The most recent episode has Josh Lyman of the White House staff dress down a bunch of NASA administrators. A beautiful one comes back to confront him about his attitudes and convinces him to go out look through a telescope with her. He is very impressed and asks "So, if we really were interested in going to Mars, how much would it cost?" She replies "There's a plan called Mars Direct and it will cost 30 or 40 billion dollars." The scene continues with her explaining the plan to him and we hear another sentence and a half before the scene fades out.

I was most amazed by this bit of publicity for the Mars Society!

-- RobS

Gennaro · 2004-02-20 06:47:21

RobS, is "West Wing" a TV show? In that case it seems the Mars Society has friends in quite unlikely places.

To return to the start of this thread, I can hardly think of a better advocate for breaking the bonds of gravity than Dr Zubrin. He's equally crazy, charismatic and sincere, a most unbeatable combination.

Yes, make him the head of NASA right now! And if all else fails, make him head of ESA!
:;):

Palomar · 2004-02-20 06:57:46

is "West Wing" a TV show? In that case it seems the Mars Society has friends in quite unlikely places.

*Yes Gennaro; it is a prime-time television series on NBC and one of its most high-profile series (at least it was last I heard).

I've never seen an episode of it myself (prefer old classic sitcoms from the 1960s and 1950s on TV Land...)

--Cindy

dicktice · 2004-02-21 17:25:40

Cindy: Last Wednesday's episode didn't follow up the previous week's Mars Direct bit, so I guess it was a kind of gratuitous "plug" inserted to relieve the heavy international-crisis main theme, last week. This week's crisis was out-and-out war propaganda, and I was thankful no Mars Dirct plug was included.
By the way, we've had an honest-to-goodness blizzard up here--with the City of Halifax under martial law (!) for first time ever, last night and tonight, to discourage pedestrians (ticket $1000) and cars (impounded) if caught out between 10 pm and 5 am. It's required to allow the snow removal machines to unclog the streets for business Monday. We have had over 3 feet of snow provence-wide, with winds up to 100 km/hour causing 10-foot drifts, and we're just beginning to dig ourselves out. There's more's on the way tonight. I bet no one of you down there, south of the border, has heard a word about it. It's big news up here, I can tell you.

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#51 2004-01-21 15:14:14

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#52 2004-01-22 07:14:16

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#53 2004-01-22 09:00:22

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#54 2004-01-22 10:58:32

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#55 2004-02-05 09:52:20

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#56 2004-02-05 10:39:36

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#57 2004-02-11 20:18:12

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#58 2004-02-12 04:56:45

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#59 2004-02-12 08:45:54

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#60 2004-02-12 09:16:59

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#61 2004-02-12 10:31:35

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#62 2004-02-12 10:39:38

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#63 2004-02-12 10:47:50

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#64 2004-02-12 11:21:39

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#65 2004-02-12 15:53:40

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#66 2004-02-12 16:19:46

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#67 2004-02-12 16:30:25

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#68 2004-02-12 16:54:16

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#69 2004-02-14 02:28:16

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#70 2004-02-15 01:18:21

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#71 2004-02-17 15:39:25

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#72 2004-02-20 06:47:21

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#73 2004-02-20 06:57:46

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

#74 2004-02-21 17:25:40

Re: Dr. Zubrin Is A Poor Spokesman For Mars Direct - Hey, I Adore the Man....but.....

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