Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

Ad Astra · 2004-01-25 12:18:57

Space is really an issue that transcends party lines because both parties know that they cannot benefit from it. But I also think that Bush 43's space program (as well as the pro-space writings from Charles Krauthammer, the Washington Times, and other prominent conservatives / Republicans) shows the direction that the parties have shifted. The Democratic Party of John Kennedy is not the Democratic Party of Ted Kennedy. Many people who would have been Democrats during the Eisenhower and Kennedy eras would fall under today's Republican Party.

And as far as Nixon killing the space program, he should have to share the blame with Lyndon Johnson. After all, it was James Webb (with Johnson's blessing) who ordered an end to the moon missions. When Nixon came to office, he had a very visionary NASA administrator, Thomas Paine, who got input from von Braun, Kraft Ehricke, and the great minds of the time. Paine wanted NASA to use Apollo hardware and nuclear rockets to explore Mars, in addition to the shuttle and space station. Nixon was only generous enough to let Paine have the shuttle (a decision which was later proved to be in err.)

quantumvista · 2004-01-29 00:42:38

Anybody have a good idea were Kerry stands on any new space initiatives. From what I can find it doesn't sound like he gives the subject much priority. In fact he doesn't appear that technically minded at all.

John Kerry is an absolute tool! If he had a position on space he'd probably OK a manned mission to Mars, and then cut funding for the return trip!

quantumvista · 2004-01-29 01:10:07

Wow you guys sure do paint with a broad brush! Don't you think it would be more responsible to at the very least balance our national budget first? Or maybe even pay down the national credit card a little. just a little. and get that trade deficit under control, maybe stabilize the dollar?

The reason the rovers work so well is that they're cheap and we don't have to risk losing our astronauts to a measurement mixup.

If you REALLY think planning for manned bases on the Moon and a manned trip to Mars is fiscally sane right now, I'm glad you guys won't be the ones going. ???

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the public school systems funded OR controlled by the Fed. No more than I want Iraq to be controlled by the FED. :angry:

Believe me, I want to explore mars as much as anyone. I've gazed at it through my 8in Newt for years. We have two Rovers there now, orbiters all over, and problems here at home. Hubble is going offline soon, we'll have another STS up very soon. We hav eplenty to do. Let's get our house in order here first.

Did you notice that there's another wall goin up? The Berlin wall wasn't the last of the sad commentaries on humanity. And you guys want to send that to Mars? I think The Rovers are our best emissaries at the present time. Humans are just not ready yet.

Nope I'm not a Democrat. But I play one in the Dean Campaign.

Aetius · 2004-01-29 04:20:02

Hey, everyone! Howard Dean dropped by to visit! Nice to see you, Doctor!

YAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!

Rxke · 2004-01-29 14:32:32

We hav eplenty to do. Let's get our house in order here first

That way you get *nothing* done, ever. When is 'the house in order'? Today, there are billions of people too poor to call it human living standards. I'm all for seeking a solution to that, but stopping mission? When will we resume? if there are 'only' 100 million? 10 million? 1, 100k... And that's only one tiny bit of the problems.

Man going to Mars, or doing researh in going, can be a piece of the puzzle: If we want to live there, we will have, eventually, find a way to make al that barren land areable. So, there will be money spet on a bunch of rich guys on Mars that want to play farmer? No. Results of this research could lead to cheap, big-scale ways to manage poor or exausted soil on Earth..

Again that's only one part of the puzzle, but going to Mars could lead to a immense spin-off towards cheaper, cleaner technologies that 'solve our house' in the end.
Mannded exploration is expensive, true. But it is all about MAnkind, i may be extatic about Sirit and Opportunity, but these things are just that: souped-up golf carts, and the money spent on them will learn us *something* about engineering, and *something* about geology...
Imagine what a human mission would learn us: a whole lotta engineering, and a whole lotta more geology, biology, chemistry...

Humans to Mars is an investment. And a good one, for the potential payoff is huge.

We have problems, we have *a lot* of problems, but throwing money at them and calling it a day won't make them go away. Going to Mars won't solve them, either. Not directly, but it will lead to new tech, that nobody bothers to develop right now, for there are no takers.
NASA was one of the first users of microelectronics, they were takers in a fledging field that has changed our lives *for the better* in ways we couldn't dream of, 50 years ago.
Today a farmer in a 3rd world country can tune into a meteorology alert, on a cheap transistorradio, on powerful batteries or solar cells. Weatherforecasts are possible trough sats and the use of supercomputers... I could go on, but that farmer is already using 5-6 tech spin-off from the space-industry. Not all of them from manned space-industry, but it only goes to show what a tech driver this industry is.

We need to go, one day. We can't wait till we reach an Utopia on Earth. It's not fleeing from Earth either, it's learning to live in a hostile environment. Like some places on Earth are hostile now.

jadeheart · 2004-01-29 14:55:20

Rxke pretty much hit the nail on the head there. While I get the feeling that I'm quite a bit to the political left of a lot of the pro-spacers here, I do agree that our problems here on Earth are never going to be solved completely, and space exploration offers unforeseen options that may help to mitigate these selfsame problems.

But here's the main thing: There is no reason why we can't do both. We can have our cake and eat it too. It just requires a balance of ideological and fiscal priorities. We can do it. We have been doing it for the most part.

Besides, what good is Utopia if its members just sit around gazing at their navels?

I still want to know what Kerry's response to the posts in this thread would be like. I imagine we'll find out if he gets the Dem nomination and they take the battle to the Repubs.

Palomar · 2004-01-29 15:34:41

Rxke pretty much hit the nail on the head there. While I get the feeling that I'm quite a bit to the political left of a lot of the pro-spacers here, I do agree that our problems here on Earth are never going to be solved completely, and space exploration offers unforeseen options that may help to mitigate these selfsame problems.
But here's the main thing: There is no reason why we can't do both. We can have our cake and eat it too. It just requires a balance of ideological and fiscal priorities. We can do it. We have been doing it for the most part.
Besides, what good is Utopia if its members just sit around gazing at their navels?

*I totally agree with Rik and jadeheart. Besides, if Utopia on Earth were ever possible (ha ha), then the argument would be "But everything is so perfect HERE...why would you possibly want to leave now?"

Rik does hit the nail on the head with his question of WHEN will the "house be in order" (to what degree, by whose standards, etc., etc.)? Answer: Likely never.

Manned space exploration is, IMO, a bit like planning on having a baby: No time is ever *perfectly* suited for either.

As for the upcoming elections: Too bad we can't have the vote today and get the circus overwith. I hate election years.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-01-29 15:58:03

Thanks, though i thought i was rambling quite a lot, too confused etc...

Another reason why i 'don't like' the idea that some scientists push (errr... the idea of *only* sending unmanned stuff, it gives us enough info, comm. tech advances will get better ,overtime, so we will virtually experience Mars and other places in our lazy chair... without risking life and limb... and our savings in the bank.)

It's decadent! it is.

Imagine the human race 100 yrs from now, all plugged into some fancy virtual reality system, 'exploring' the universe through robot eyes... No thank you.

I want people to do the stuff FOR REAL. Accept no substitute.

Palomar · 2004-01-29 16:08:55

Imagine the human race 100 yrs from now, all plugged into some fancy virtual reality system, 'exploring' the universe through robot eyes... No thank you.
I want people to do the stuff FOR REAL. Accept no substitute.

*Yes. A similar conversation elsewhere had me considering earlier today the potential of high technology stripping us of some aspects of our humanness if we are not careful. I'm pro-technology, but there are pitfalls in the trappings...including aspects of dehumanization.

I can (unhappily) foresee what you are relating, Rik, as a potential likelihood.

If humanity (in general) loses its will and appetite for hands-on exploration, etc., we're in trouble (IMO).

--Cindy

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-07-18 17:15:34

yes there seem to be some big problems in the bush space plan some say there could be a number of flaws, but can you trust Kerry about what he said, he might just be wanting votes also

Earthfirst · 2004-07-20 18:56:15

I hate Kerry!
As far as I know he is rich eastern who thinks that every one should be govern like boston. :realllymad:
Praise be the god bush, holys of holys,bringer of dawn!

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-20 20:49:06

I hate Kerry!
As far as I know he is rich eastern who thinks that every one should be govern like boston. :realllymad:
Praise be the god bush, holys of holys,bringer of dawn!

Dear Lord no one in their right mind would vote for Bush, he's destroying the environment, opposing good health care, destroying our liberties, and God only knows what else.

Kerry ain't bad, but he's not my ideal president, Ralph Nader is :up:

Michael Bloxham · 2004-07-20 23:29:52

They're both crap, IMO (How did this happen? :hm: ). But atleast we know how crap Bush is, so my vote goes to Kerry 100%.

*Yay go Kerry!*

Josh Cryer · 2004-07-21 00:26:53

3 months after the initiative was called for, I was saying that Bush wasn't pushing for his little wonderful magical initiative as much as he should be. People were acting like he was a visionary, when obviously he's too incompetent to get his daddy's dream off the ground. I'm tempted to give NASA Watch a bit of my mind, since they have posts back from when the initiative came out praising Bush like he was some wonderful Kennedy-esque visionary. People need a reality check. I guess they got it.

Algol · 2004-07-21 02:06:35

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3912095.stm]US panel backs space budget cut

hmmmmmmmmmm

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-21 11:58:40

If anybody had half a brain they'd know that Bush was just doing this to swing the nerd vote.

Earthfirst · 2004-07-21 15:01:14

He got my vote because he love edumacation, and he loves space stuff like the moon. Kerry hates nerds by the way, he only forces them to count his billions of dollars that he admassed from marrying that old sea hag heniz 59. He would be the richest president every, I hate him alot!
By the way I am not the crazy one here every one esle that would vote for that monster kerry is insane, or a lunatic, since we are talking about space.
Any ways some random thoughts, what if ms henz was found to be having a boyfriend on the side like clinton did, would kerry stand by his cash cow? I mean that woman she devil! :hm:
When Bush is reelected by a landside this fall, I will muse over the thoughts about how right I was, and how you kerry support were SO WRONG! I mean come on, Kerry he has as much sex appail as a munic he uses so much botox that their is a sortage in holyweird, and edwards that no good trail lawyer wont even bring one southern state to kerry aid. In the south they hate rich yankees even more than I do, and that saying a lot. Bush will sweep the south most of the mountian west, The out look is good for bush in my view.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-07-21 23:26:54

I hate Kerry!
As far as I know he is rich eastern who thinks that every one should be govern like boston. :realllymad:
Praise be the god bush, holys of holys,bringer of dawn!

Your joking, right?

Currently, the only guys I've seen supporting Bush are the non-cognitive majority that will vote for him because either they're republicans or don't want to shake up the white house with a new president, the rich CEOs/polygamist creationists with whom Bush holds special interests, and Cobra Commander. Seriously, no one in their right mind would vote for Bush. If I could vote, I'd use it to slam him down with the Kerry/Edwards hammer, but that ain't gonna happen until 2008. By then I'll probably hate Kerry and will slam him down with the John McCain hammer. Or whoever else runs.

To reiterate what I said in another thread, it all comes down to the lesser of two evils. It's highly unlikely that Kerry will be worse than Bush.

Then there's the Philip J. Fry voting solution, "If I were registered to vote, I'd send these clowns a message by staying home on election day and dressing up like a clown!"

As for Kerry's space policy, expect more of Clinton. He's going to do horrible things to NASA, which in the end might not be a bad thing. It's not like they're really doing a lot anyway, goooooooo Rutan!

BWhite · 2004-07-21 23:33:57

the rich CEOs/polygamist creationists with whom Bush holds special interests, and Cobra Commander.

Can this be my sig?

Cobra, you should feel honored!

Cobra Commander · 2004-07-22 05:30:07

Quote
the rich CEOs/polygamist creationists with whom Bush holds special interests, and Cobra Commander.

Can this be my sig?
Cobra, you should feel honored!

:laugh: At least I was left out of the "non-cognitive majority."

Of course, if we accept that label then it calls into question the entire premise of elections, but what the hell. Stupid is as stupid does, and stupid votes both ways.

If I could vote, I'd use it to slam him down with the Kerry/Edwards hammer, but that ain't gonna happen until 2008. By then I'll probably hate Kerry and will slam him down with the John McCain hammer. Or whoever else runs.

So you're assuming that Kerry will win, I take it?

After the "non-cognitive majority" comment. :laugh:

Seriously, I expect a Bush win by a significant margin, after which both Kerry and Edwards will be over as national political figures.

As for Kerry's space policy, expect more of Clinton. He's going to do horrible things to NASA, which in the end might not be a bad thing. It's not like they're really doing a lot anyway, goooooooo Rutan!

Again, SpaceShipOne isn't as significant in the grand scheme of things as some of the hype would suggest. It's firmly in the "cool but useless" category. If we let NASA get gutted, it's over. Bush may not be the great white hope of space exploration, but if what you say is true (and I suspect it is) Kerry is the reaper.

Palomar · 2004-07-22 06:10:38

Bush may not be the great white hope of space exploration, but if what you say is true (and I suspect it is) Kerry is the reaper.

*The cost of the Iraqi war was underestimated by $30 billion dollars. Recently $25 billion was shelled out on an emergency basis for continued support of the war. That won't be the end of it.

It's Bush who is driving the nails into the coffin of American space exploration. But I guess The Golden Boy is above taking any blame. (The economy is still in the toilet...oh well, blame Clinton!).

And no, I'm not a Kerry supporter. But I won't vote for Bush.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-07-22 07:23:35

It's Bush who is driving the nails into the coffin of American space exploration. But I guess The Golden Boy is above taking any blame. (The economy is still in the toilet...oh well, blame Clinton!).

The sad truth of the matter is that no President is going to come out fighting for space missions, manned or otherwise. No one gets to be a candidate for President without playing the vote-sucking game and support of space exploration just isn't that significant. It's a sideshow, take some credit when you can but don't tie yourself to it. There is no vision, there is no real support.

So we're left with secondary factors. Bush is spending federal funds like... a Democrat. He's not helping matters. Kerry is in the pocket of the Democrat Party factions, all calling for big expenditures that add up to enormous sums of money. Bush is tied to corporate stooges and the Defense contractors are lappin' up cash at the trough as he spends massive sums of money (though hardly budget busting really) on the war and other factors. Kerry has supported in the past and will no doubt continue to support big lib social spending.

Wars end, government programs don't.

Either way, it doesn't really help us at the moment since the vast majority don't really give a rats ass about sending people to Mars and the arguments for doing so are a bit far-sighted for the average American in this day and age, the war and economy (which isn't that bad) are far more pressing matters.

So Bush screws us for the time being, but has a weak proposal for getting things going somehwere other than LEO. Kerry offers nothing and has the potential to screw us long-term and we'll all be going to sleep by light of a communist moon!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm not trying to Defend Bush, I don't particularly like him in any regard. But for anyone to say the we should support Kerry to further space exploration is absurd on so many levels...

We've got a crappy choice this election. We can vote for Bush, who is essentially an imitation Kennedy Democrat (yes, indeed) and Kerry, who is a poll reader, Clinton without the slick. The triumph of mediocrity.

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-22 11:29:27

I think Gay Rights, Abortion, War, and Poverty are more important than Space Exploration.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-07-22 13:52:53

:laugh: At least I was left out of the "non-cognitive majority."

You should consider yourself lucky. :laugh:

Joking of course.

So you're assuming that Kerry will win, I take it?
After the "non-cognitive majority" comment.

No, that's not a non-cognative remark. I'm assuming that Kerry will win based on the fact that no president last century were re-elected with their approval ratings so low. Bush is riding on a right wing and a prayer, and the 9/11 report won't help him.

Cobra, please don't make me tell you again why Bush doesn't deserve to be in the White House anymore and why we can reasonably assume that Kerry won't be worse than him. It's getting kinda redundat.

That said, if we're going to have anymore hard-core debates here (duh), I suggest that nobody start ranting and raving like a telepastor on PaxTV's sunday morning shows. Trust me, a member that will remain nameless did that in the Science/Technology forum, it ain't pretty. Let's keep this an intellegant debate, not a shool yard lunch hour brawl.

EDIT: Just wanted to say that the nameless guy isn't cobra or anyone else here. Thank you.

Josh Cryer · 2004-07-22 14:33:52

Kerry is supposed to be making a space policy announcement in the coming days. Since I do not believe that Bush is going to be relected (for other reasons, google for "electorial vote projection"), I believe it would behoove space advocates to go with a candidate who has the potential to be a 2 term president. Start early, pushing for space advocacy, and might actually get somewhere.

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#26 2004-01-25 12:18:57

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

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