New Mars Forums
You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Announcement
#1 2026-10-06 19:09:11
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
I very willing to modify this as the moderators may specify.
I am seeing notions about extracting materials from Sea Water, and I presume that such technology might also apply to other brines.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ec70054cd2 Quote:
Utube, getting water and Uranium from sea water
0:50US Company to Extract Uranium from Seawater: A Breakthrough for Nuclear Energy?
While this could be developed for Earth, it may be suitable to other Seas and brine sources. I have hopes that the salt for the ancient seas of Mars may still exist as salt deposits underground.
Enceladus and Europa may have seas that can be accessed. We might even try to figure out if we could get into the now frozen oceans of Charon and maybe existing oceans of Pluto, etc.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Does Charon Have a Now Frozen Ocean?
Current evidence suggests Charon once had a subsurface ocean that has since frozen, but there is no confirmed proof of a liquid ocean today.What the data show
NASA’s New Horizons mission (2015) revealed that Charon’s surface contains broad cryovolcanic plains, massive fault systems (such as Serenity and Mandjet Chasmata), and other geological features that are consistent with the refreezing of a past subsurface oceanThermal and orbital evolution models indicate that in Charon’s early history, internal heat from radioactive decay and residual formation heat likely kept a layer of water liquid beneath its icy crust
. As the moon cooled, this ocean would have frozen, expanding and stressing the overlying ice shell. This process could have:Fractured the ice shell, producing the long “pull‑apart” faults and chasms seen today
Triggered cryovolcanism, where pressurized water was expelled through fractures
Modeling and constraints
Recent modeling by Southwest Research Institute and collaborators found that ocean freezing could explain Charon’s large canyons and surface stresses, but that the ice shell was likely too thick for the ocean to fully penetrate and erupt in the present. The timing of the freeze is uncertain, but it is thought to have occurred after Charon’s orbital circularization and cooling
.
Current status
While the ocean hypothesis is strong for Charon’s past, there is no direct evidence of a liquid ocean now. The consensus is that Charon is now a frozen, tidally locked icy moon with a solid ice shell over a solidified interior. The “frozen ocean” is a remnant of its thermal history, not an active one.
In short: Charon almost certainly had a subsurface ocean in the past, and that ocean has since frozen, leaving behind the distinctive surface features we see today. There is no confirmed evidence of a liquid ocean existing now.
As that ocean would freeze, I believe that the salts may concentrate, perhaps even erupting to the surface as Charon's water expanded from freezing.
From the standpoint of computing, Charon could be considered a fossil reservoir of cold. Suppose its entire surface were covered in some type of solar collector and laser light might be beamed to it. Then the export product would be computations, and also perhaps water or Hydrocarbons, presuming that Charon has Carbon compounds. As portions of the frozen sea were thawed with waste heat, access to salts may be possible, including perhaps Uranium salts.
For the Earth, if we could find a number of substances to extract then the process might become practical.
I think that Potassium might be another target. If we could create microbes that would sequester it out of the ocean water, perhaps that would be a good path.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Potassium in Seawater
Seawater contains about 400 parts per million (ppm) of potassium, mainly as dissolved K⁺ ions, making it a natural but relatively minor source compared to other mineralsConcentration and Form
On average, ocean water has ~0.04% potassium by weight, which equals roughly 400mg/L. This is about 10–15 times higher than typical river water (2–3ppm)
. In seawater, potassium exists almost entirely as potassium ions (K⁺)
Source of Seawater Potassium
Potassium enters the oceans through natural weathering of rocks and minerals (e.g., feldspars, clay minerals) and from hydrothermal vents on the seafloor
. Over time, much of it settles into ocean sediments, so the dissolved amount is relatively stable but not extremely highComparison with Other Ions
Potassium is one of the six most abundant ions in seawater (alongside chloride, sodium, sulfate, magnesium, and calcium). However, its concentration is much lower than sodium (~10,800ppm) or chloride (~19,300ppm)
Extraction and Use
While seawater contains potassium, it is not a major commercial source because:The concentration is low compared to rock salts and mineral deposits.
Extraction would require large-scale desalination and ion separation, which is energy-intensive
Most commercial potassium is obtained from potassium chloride (KCl) mining and other mineral sources
Research and Isotopes
Recent studies show that modern seawater has a consistent potassium isotope composition (+0.12‰) regardless of location or depth, and is heavier than the bulk silicate Earth, reflecting long-term geochemical processes
nicerlab.ldeo.columbia.edu
nicerlab.ldeo.columbia.edu
.In summary: Seawater does contain potassium (~400ppm), but it is a minor and costly source compared to terrestrial mineral deposits. It is mainly present as K⁺ ions, derived from rock weathering and hydrothermal activity, and is more relevant for scientific study than for large-scale extraction.
Frankly my concern is that even if Canada remains friendly, Potash may eventually become scarce. Presuming RethinkX is correct about precision fermentation leading to the abandonment of farm land, then I want a vast resource to fertilize Grass crops. That might require Nitrogen, but perhaps such grasses can be made to fix Nitrogen.
It does not look like we can get Phosphorous from sea water so that has to be mined.
Grass as a crop can be fashioned into artificial wood. Artificial wood can be used, (I think), to build year around roads and railroads in the permafrost of the North. This may be valuable in itself, but also will sequester Carbon from the atmosphere.
If it is true that CO2 is warming the climate, then here is a path to increased wealth that may also be a good treatment for that supposed problem.
If we can learn to work with icy objects like Charon, this may adapt us to move outward into habitation of rogue objects between stars.
The early Universe did not have much Uranium, but now it apparently is making more all the time.
Calliban, I think has indicated that a fusion reaction can be used to better fission Uranium and it's byproducts.
So, the skill to work with Seawater to extract materials, may serve the human race well if they go on such a quest for expansion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
It seems that Potassium extraction would be benefited by desalination.
I have been considering a undersea method of desalinization.
It is different than the methods that use reverse osmosis, and may not be as good as that.
Query: "Desalinization of sea water by reverse Osmosis where the fixtures are in deep water?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Deep‑Water Reverse Osmosis Desalination
Deep‑sea reverse osmosis (DSRO) systems place RO membranes 400–600m below the surface, using the ocean’s natural hydrostatic pressure (≈40–50bar) to push seawater through membranes, producing potable water with 30–50% lower energy use than land‑basedHow it works
Location & pressure: Pods or modules are anchored on the seabed at 400–600m depth, where ambient pressure is ~40–50barProcess: Seawater is drawn into the pod; the natural pressure forces it through semi‑permeable RO membranes, removing salts, bacteria, viruses, pesticides, and PFAs
Energy savings: Because the ocean’s pressure does the “pushing,” pumps “suck” freshwater rather than “push” seawater, cutting energy use by 30–50% compared to conventional SWRO
Water quality: Below ~200m, sunlight is absent, so algae and biofouling are minimal, reducing pretreatment needs
Example systems
Deep Sea Reverse Osmosis (DSRO) podsModular, tethered to the seabed, each producing ~4,000m³/day.
Freshwater piped to the surface; designed for harsh deep‑sea conditions.
Tested at the U.S. Navy’s Deep Ocean Simulation Center; next step is an open‑ocean pilot off California.
Flocean™
Automated, unmanned, modular subsea SWRO.
Uses deep‑sea water’s stability and cleanliness to cut costs and environmental impact.
Targets 95% less land use than coastal plants; potential to halve water costs.
Advantages
Lower energy demand due to ambient pressure
Reduced environmental footprint: No brine discharge at the surface, minimal pretreatment chemicalsScalability: Modular pods can be added to match demand
Consistent feedwater quality: Deep‑sea water is stable in temperature and composition
Challenges
High deployment cost: Subsea installation, cabling, and maintenance are expensiveEngineering complexity: Must withstand extreme pressure, corrosion, and currents
Infrastructure: Requires reliable surface‑to‑depth piping and power for auxiliary systems.
Outlook
DSRO is moving from lab and simulation trials to pilot projects in Norway, California, and Japan
genviss.in
genviss.in
. If costs and engineering hurdles are overcome, it could offer a low‑energy, decentralized, and eco‑friendly source of freshwater for coastal and offshore communities
So, I can already see that if you are going to bring fresh water from deep in the ocean, that fresh water will be cold. Therefore perhaps useful as cooling water for industrial purposes such as data centers.
>>>>>>>>>>
My notion is more, to create pressurized air bubbles deep in the ocean. Let's say a diving bell at high pressure.
You put a data center into it and discharge heat into the water. The dense cold air inside the chamber is subject to convection, but also could have forced convection, and condensation occurs on the inner walls of the chamber.
This may or may not be worth it. A power line (Not shown) brings electricity to the Data Center. The Data Center produces heat which is discharged into the water below the data center. Rather than depending on boiling for this distillation process evaporation and condensation would be the nature of the process. The waste heat could produce fresh water.
The diving bell is a heat exchanger, It could have fins on both the inside and outside surfaces.
If we could figure out how to extract Uranium and Potassium, I guess that is a wish.
The pressure in the diving bell would be very high, so that only extreme diving methods would allow humans there, but robots might work there.
It may be possible that the apparatus could be brought closer to the surface at times.
The result of the heat of the data center being discharged in the surrounding water would be that the water will warm and might bring nutrients up towards the sunlight.
So, it is not like OTEC where you pull cold sea water up at a cost.
An earlier version of this was not including a data centers waste heat, but reversed OTEC where you would suck warm water from the surface down into the diving bell and let it evaporate. That would be energy consuming though. But if you want cold fresh water, perhaps it is worth it.
Ending
Last edited by Void (2026-10-06 20:18:48)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#2 2026-10-07 09:04:33
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
For Mars, it is not certain that a form of sea could be rebuilt. But here is one step in that direction.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Blue Origin’s Moon “Power Tower” Solar System
Blue Origin’s “Power Tower” is a 20‑meter‑tall, vertically deployed solar array designed to deliver over 10kW of electricity to future Moon Base operations at the lunar south poleWhat it is
The Power Tower is a vertically extended photovoltaic system that lifts solar panels well above the lunar surface to capture sunlight in challenging terrain. It is intended to power multiple assets — such as rovers, scientific instruments, communications gear, and life‑support systems — rather than just a single landerKey specs
Height: ~20m (some descriptions note 26m total height when mounted on Blue Moon MK1 lander)Output: >10kW continuous power
Design: Modular architecture to allow multiple towers in a surface power network
Deployment: Pole extends upward, arms unfold to lower solar arrays
Why it’s needed
At the lunar south pole, the Sun often stays low near the horizon, and crater rims or mountains cast long shadows. Elevated solar arrays can avoid these shadows and access “peaks of eternal light” — areas with near‑continuous sunlight. This makes them ideal for sustained power generation.
Development and testing
Evolution of LAMPS: Power Tower builds on the Lunar Array Mast and Power System (LAMPS), developed by Blue Origin subsidiary Honeybee Robotics and tested at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in 2024
.Ground test: A real deployment test was conducted on Earth on July 22, 2026, in a lunar analog environment
NASA link: Intended to support NASA’s Artemis Moon Base plan, with the first phase running to 2029 and a target operational date of 2032
.Role in lunar infrastructure
Blue Origin envisions the Power Tower as lunar power infrastructure — similar to terrestrial grids — where multiple towers form a network to supply electricity across the surface. This could reduce the need for each mission to carry its own power systems and enable longer‑duration, more complex operations.
In short: The Power Tower is a high‑altitude, modular solar system aimed at providing reliable, high‑capacity power for a future lunar south pole base, addressing the unique lighting challenges of the Moon’s polar regions
.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/bl … r-AA2dD4Pr Quote:
Blue Origin reveals massive ‘power tower’ to deliver solar electricity on the Moon
Story by Kouceila Rekik • 1d • 6 min read
Image Quote:
Quote:
Blue Origin has unveiled a 20-meter-tall solar power system designed to supply more than 10 kilowatts of electricity to future operations at the moon’s south pole, pointing toward a lunar future in which power infrastructure may become as important as landers and rovers themselves.
The design modified for the Mars polar ice caps would capture energy, and change the albedo of the ice caps, and provide means of terraforming Mars. Because of the seasonal nature of the ice caps and evaporation and condensation processes, the setups may need robotic actuation. They may be set to collect solar energy part of the year and then altered to survive a long winter.
What is the ratio of the length of the Mars year to that of the Earth?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Ratio of Mars Year Length to Earth Year Length
A Mars year is about 1.88 times longer than an Earth year.Step-by-step reasoning:
Earth year length:
An Earth year is defined as 365.256 days (sidereal year)Mars year length:
Scientific measurements show that Mars completes one orbit around the Sun in 686.97 Earth daysRatio calculation:
Ratio
=
Mars year (Earth days)
Earth year (Earth days)
=
686.97
365.256
≈
1.88
Interpretation:
This means one Martian year lasts almost twice as long as one Earth year — specifically, about 1.88 Earth yearsFinal Answer:
The ratio of the length of a Mars year to an Earth year is approximately 1.88:1
So seasonal changeovers would not be nearly as frequent as for Earth.
In it ice caps, ice caves could be created to put sensitive equipment into to survive the winter. Perhaps the solar arrays.
A Mars summer almost twice as long as that of Earth, might support biochemical activities in the base of each of these mechanical "Trees".
The change of albedo would increase the rate of ice sublimation on the surface so you would need means to adjust the devices for that. Again robotic actuation. Over time the thickness of the ice caps would decrease, and the area they covered may increase.
Each "Tree" could use biological or Abiotic means to produce greenhouse gasses. It might be noticed that you could use artificial snow for insulation of the bases where life might be hosted.
Deep tunneling with lasers may provide ice caves and streams of melt water to move to the edges of the ice caps perhaps to fill ice covered pools of water.
With just a little pressurization of the ice tubes and the input of energy by way of laser beam, streams of liquid water might be extracted, and ice cave systems could be extended.
The ice and mechanically covered lakes might be the beginnings of seas.
Here is an article about the North Ice Cap: https://www.msn.com/en-us/science/envir … r-AA2dGP8w
Quote:
Scientists just found something unexpected in Mars’ polar ice
Story by Lydia Amazouz • 1d • 5 min read
Interesting.
Ending
Last edited by Void (2026-10-07 09:51:19)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#3 2026-10-08 09:43:22
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
I think I have an idea for extracting nutrients from the deep oceans.
It may or may not be wise to do.
Supposing we could have tankers that carry Acetate in the manner that Oil Tankers or Liquid Natural Gas do.
Then we might have a location that will manufacture Acetate from surplus energy. Perhaps Australia with Solar Energy or the North Sea with wind.
If we inject Acetate and Oxygen into the deeps of the Ocean where nutrients are, then we may promote a food chain.
The resulting biomass harvested then could be processed where eventually the nutrients could be put into farm land.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Recovering Potash from Animal Waste
Animal manure is a rich, natural source of potassium (K₂O) that can be processed into usable potash fertilizer, with typical values ranging from ~4.6 to 14.4 lbs K₂O per ton depending on species and feed
University of Alaska Fairbanks
University of Alaska Fairbanks
.Potassium Content in Common Manures
Animal
K₂O (lbs/ton)Beef feedlot
12.8Dairy cow
4.6Swine
6.4Horse 14.4
Sheep
24.0Poultry (no litter)
8.4These values are in addition to nitrogen and phosphorus, and manure also supplies organic matter that improves soil structure.
How to Recover Potash from Manure
Collection & Storage
Gather manure promptly to minimize nutrient loss. Store in dry, well‑aerated conditions to prevent leaching and odor issuesComposting
Mix manure with carbon sources (e.g., straw, wood chips) in a 1:2–1:3 ratio. Compost for 3–6 months to stabilize nutrients, reduce pathogens, and improve handling. This process also concentrates potassium in the composted productBioleaching / Extraction
Research shows that bioleaching of manure ash or composted material can release potassium into solution for recovery. This can be combined with biochar production to immobilize nutrients and improve soil application efficiency
Processing into Fertilizer
Direct application: Apply composted manure to fields; potassium is released slowly, reducing leaching
Fertilizer blending: Extract K₂O via leaching and blend with other nutrients for a commercial potash product
Biochar integration: Incorporate biochar into manure to improve nutrient retention and slow release
Frontiers
Frontiers
.Benefits of Using Animal Waste for Potash
Circular economy: Recycles nutrients from livestock into crops, reducing reliance on mined potash
Environmental: Lowers greenhouse gas emissions from manure management and reduces waste disposal issues
Soil health: Organic potassium improves soil structure, water retention, and microbial activity
Practical Tips
Test manure for K₂O content before processing; values vary with diet, bedding, and animal type
University of Alaska Fairbanks
University of Alaska FairbanksFor large‑scale recovery, consider combining manure with other K‑rich agricultural by‑products (e.g., crop residues)
Apply processed potash according to soil test recommendations to avoid over‑application.
In summary: Animal manure contains significant potassium that can be recovered through composting, bioleaching, or direct application. Processing it into a potash fertilizer not only recovers a valuable nutrient but also supports sustainable, circular agricultural practices
Frontiers
F
It is not so much that I am afraid of Potash being cut off to America long term, but that fertilizers for agriculture are a thing that may continue as needed if supplies run out.
Algae and Yeast can grow in the dark using Acetate and Oxygen, I beleive.
A chamber lowered to a depth where nutrients would be present might have screens that prevent the entry of large organisms.
The chamber could be presented with Acetate and Oxygen and the Nutrient rich water could be circulated to allow something like Yeast or Algae to absorb the nutrients while consuming Acetate and Oxygen.
The Yeast or Algae harvested might be harvested to be fish food. That food transported to aquiculture associated with regular farm fields, may provide fertilizers.
Fish either emit Ammonia or Urea. Such water might be useful to water plants with.
The fish that might grow may be food for Humans and Livestock. The waste can have nutrients extracted such as Potash.
Fish waste could either be fed to livestock, or perhaps directly be applied to field crops.
This process might not only provide Nitrogen fertilizer, but Potash and I presume perhaps Phosphorous.
Ending
Last edited by Void (2026-10-08 10:11:23)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#4 2026-10-08 14:32:11
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
Generally, for Oceans and internal drainage lakes, Nutrients are sequestered from land to the water.
An exception may be birds that catch fish and bring their droppings into land, Or animals that may catch food at a shoreline or tidal zone.
So, I believe that there are a lot of lands that are barren because of lack of nutrients, not just lack of precipitation. This seems to have been the case for Iceland until a invasive plant from Alaska was introduced there.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Nootka Lupin — The Alaskan Nitrogen‑Fixing Plant in Iceland
The invasive plant you’re referring to is Lupinus nootkatensis, commonly called Nootka lupin or Alaskan lupin
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
.Origin and introduction
Native to coastal Alaska and parts of western Canada, the Nootka lupin is a perennial legume in the pea family (Fabaceae)
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
. In 1945, Iceland’s Forest Service imported seeds from Alaska to combat severe soil erosion and prepare barren volcanic and ash soils for reforestation
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
. The plant was chosen because it can fix atmospheric nitrogen through root nodules containing nitrogen‑fixing bacteria, enriching poor soils and improving conditions for future tree growth
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
. It also extracts phosphorus from poor soils
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
.Ecological role and spread
Initially hailed as a restoration success, the lupin spread rapidly because it was unpalatable to sheep, had no close relatives to compete with, and could form dense, one‑metre‑tall stands
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
. Its nitrogen‑fixing ability and strong root system stabilized soils, but the plant also altered soil chemistry, favoring its own expansion and smothering mosses, lichens, and native herbs
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
. Studies show that high lupin cover significantly reduces native plant diversity in heathlands and woodlands
Times of India
Times of India
+1
.Current status
Today, Nootka lupin is designated an invasive species in Iceland
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
. It dominates lowland areas, replaces native flora, and is projected to expand further under climate change
Times of India
Times of India
+1
. While it still provides soil stabilization and nitrogen enrichment, its dominance is considered an ecological problem, and management efforts are underway to control its spread
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1
.Summary
Name: Lupinus nootkatensis (Nootka lupin / Alaskan lupin)
Origin: Coastal Alaska, western Canada
Introduced to Iceland: 1945 for erosion control and reforestation
Key trait: Fixes atmospheric nitrogen via root nodules, enriching poor soils
www.spacegroup.no
www.spacegroup.no
+1Current status: Invasive, dominant in many lowland areas, reducing biodiversity
Times of India
Times of India
+1This plant’s story is a classic example of how an ecological restoration species can become an invasive threat when it alters ecosystems beyond its intended role.
So such plants are a way to improve the Nitrogen in soil or artificial fertilizers can do so at a significant expense of energy, I believe.
I don't know about other nutrients, but am aware of Potash which involves Potassium and use often taken from mines, or can be extracted from animal and human waste.
If a method can be established where cold water nutrients can be presented to Yeast or Algae along with Oxygen and Acetate, then I feel that this might be a good way to extract the nutrients back out of the Oceans.
Perhaps something like this would work: 
The top would be human diver accessible, and if the whole thing were put sideways near the surface diver accessible as well.
I am not certain, but I think the metabolism of Yeast or Algae digesting will warm the input cold nutrient rich water.
When deployed vertical, then I suppose a stream of yeast or algae output could be collected near the top.
I am not showing means of buoyancy, but you would need something.
The product output to make animal feed for fish or other animals would be a path for various nutrients to be pulled out of the Ocean and distributed to farmlands and other lands as well.
Supertankers might bring the Acetate in in bulk. The method of insertion of additional Oxygen might involve pumping air, or some other means.
A future crop to fertilize could be grasses, perhaps to make artificial wood out of.
Ending
Last edited by Void (2026-10-08 14:55:47)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#5 2026-10-08 21:13:12
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
This is interesting: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 29ca67d862 Quote:
China Just Built The Data Center Microsoft Gave Up On
YouTube
AI Andrew
9 views
8
My dream would be to do the AI cooling while drawing nutrients up for Yeast or Algae to use while being fed Acetate and Oxygen.
If fresh water could be obtained in the process that would be a plus.
Ideally some method to extract the Uranium from the produced brine.
In addition, ideally with a method mix the brine with sea water to dilute it to a safe level.
Ending
Last edited by Void (2026-10-08 21:16:52)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#6 Yesterday 20:06:12
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
From post #4, I have been considering this some more, quote:
Perhaps something like this would work:
The top would be human diver accessible, and if the whole thing were put sideways near the surface diver accessible as well.
I have been edging towards what I think is a proper query: ''Organisms in the sea that travel up and down daily, how far do they travel?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Daily Vertical Migration in the Sea — How Far Organisms Travel
Many marine animals, especially zooplankton like copepods and krill, as well as some fish and squid, perform a diel vertical migration (DVM) — a daily journey between deep waters and the surface
NOAA Ocean Exploration
NOAA Ocean Exploration
+1
.Typical travel distance:
Most migrators start in the twilight zone (mesopelagic layer), about 200–1,000 meters (600–3,300 feet) below the surface
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
+1
.At night, they ascend toward the surface layer (epipelagic zone), often reaching just a few meters below the top.
This means the vertical displacement is usually on the order of several hundred meters — for example, from ~200 m deep to near the surface, or up to ~1,000 m in some cases
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
+1
.Smaller zooplankton may move less vertically, while larger species like lanternfish can travel the full 200–1,000 m range
Science Sensei
Science Sensei
.Why they do it:
Feeding: Surface waters at night are rich in phytoplankton and other prey, and darkness hides them from visual predators
NOAA Ocean Exploration
NOAA Ocean Exploration
+1
.Predator avoidance: Daytime in deeper waters reduces exposure to surface predators
NOAA Ocean Exploration
NOAA Ocean Exploration
+1
.Other benefits: Avoidance of UV damage, use of colder deeper waters for growth, and exploitation of currents for food
NOAA Ocean Exploration
NOAA Ocean Exploration
.Scale of the migration:
This is the largest synchronous animal migration on Earth, involving billions to trillions of individuals daily across the globe
NOAA Ocean Exploration
NOAA Ocean Exploration
+1
.The movement is not limited to one species — it spans crustaceans, mollusks, fish, and jellyfish
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.In summary:
Most marine organisms that migrate daily in the sea travel hundreds of meters vertically each day, typically from the twilight zone (200–1,000 m deep) to near the surface, with the exact distance depending on species, depth, and environmental conditions
So, most feeding is probably at the surface at night based on microbes that do photosynthesis.
But does some feedings occur further down?
If so then do these organisms bring nutrients up from below/
If not, if we introduced Acetate and Oxygen into lower nutrient rich waters and simulated starlight and Moon light down that far, would they feed on the at those depths?
Growing Yeast and Algae may be useful, but could you farm particular species of multicellular life in such an enclosure?
It needs more thinking.
Ending
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:17:26)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#7 Today 10:26:12
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
I am learning quite a lot more about nutrients in the seas.
This is a bit dry and lengthy, but lots of information in it: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 621d8bf83e
Quote:
Marine Ecology Lecture- Continental Shelf Ecosystems
YouTube
James Douglass
5.5K views
Where before I was very interested in deep cold water with nutrients in it.
But this video indicates that sediments can hold lots of nutrients. Unless something stirs them back up I presume they eventually become parts of rocks. And the nutrients then are locked up, until that rock can be eroded again by some process.
Two interesting alternatives then exist: 1) Vacuum up sentiments, or process the output of rivers into the sea before the sedimentation occurs.
So, if you could combine a nutrient source with an energy source, (Acetate & Oxygen) you might capture nutrients into Yeast or Algae, or a creature that might eat Yeast or Algae produced.
Query: "What nutrients are in Ocean sediments?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Nutrients Found in Ocean Sediments
Ocean sediments are rich in a variety of macronutrients, micronutrients, and trace elements that play key roles in marine biogeochemical cycles and ecosystem productivity.Major nutrients
Nitrogen (N) – Present mainly as nitrates, ammonium, and organic nitrogen from decomposed organic matter. Nitrogen is essential for protein synthesis and is a limiting nutrient in many marine systems
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
.Phosphorus (P) – Found as phosphate, vital for ATP, DNA, and RNA. Phosphorus in sediments often comes from weathered rocks, organic debris, and human inputs
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
.Carbon (C) – Stored in both organic (dead plankton, detritus) and inorganic forms (carbonates). Organic carbon in sediments supports microbial food webs and is part of the ocean’s carbon sink
Coastal Wiki
Coastal Wiki
+1
.Silicon (Si) – Incorporated into diatom frustules and radiolarian skeletons; released during silica dissolution and recycled in sediments
Coastal Wiki
Coastal Wiki
+1
.Other essential elements
Iron (Fe) – A trace metal that can limit productivity in certain regions; present in both dissolved and particulate forms in sediments
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
www.marinebiodiversity.ca
.Calcium (Ca) – Found in carbonate shells and skeletons, contributing to the calcium carbonate component of sediments
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
.Sulfur (S) – Present in organic matter and sulfide minerals, part of the sulfur cycle
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Trace metals and minerals
Sediments also contain trace metals such as manganese, copper, zinc, and selenium, often associated with manganese nodules or organic-rich layers
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. These can be micronutrients for marine life or pollutants depending on concentration.Sources in sediments
Nutrients in ocean sediments originate from:Biogenous material – remains of plankton, shells, and other marine organisms
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Terrigenous input – weathered land particles carrying nutrients
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Hydrogenous deposits – minerals precipitated from seawater, such as phosphorites
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Microbial activity – remineralization of organic matter releases nutrients back into the sediment and water column
Coastal Wiki
Coastal Wiki
.Ecological role
These nutrients are recycled through marine biogeochemical cycles, supporting primary production, food web energy flow, and carbon sequestration
Coastal Wiki
Coastal Wiki
+2
. Sediments act as both a storage reservoir and a source of nutrients, influencing coastal productivity and climate regulation.In summary: Ocean sediments contain nitrogen, phosphorus, carbon, silicon, calcium, sulfur, iron, and various trace metals, all of which are integral to marine life and global nutrient cycling
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_sediment
Image Quote:
So, I might put an eye on the output of the Mississippi River into the Gulf of America. (Mexico).
The water could perhaps be conducted into a chamber of some kind that is highly aeriated, and Acetate could be introduced.
Yeast or Algae then to be the base of a food chain that could cycle nutrients back into farmlands that are in the rivers drainage basin.
Query: "Can nutrients be extracted from Maneure?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Extracting Nutrients from Manure
Yes — nutrients can be extracted from manure through processes such as composting, anaerobic digestion, and other recovery methods, producing concentrated, plant‑available fertilizers or other products
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
+1
.How Manure Contains Nutrients
Manure is rich in nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K), along with organic carbon, sulfur, and trace elements
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
+1
. On average, 70–80% of dietary nitrogen, 60–85% of phosphorus, and 80–90% of potassium in animal feed are excreted in manure
UMass Amherst
UMass Amherst
+1
. These nutrients are the same key components of commercial fertilizers.Extraction and Recovery Methods
Manure nutrient recovery is the process of separating and concentrating these nutrients from manure for reuse
sustainability-directory.com
sustainability-directory.com
. Common approaches include:Composting – Aerobic breakdown of manure reduces odor, kills pathogens, and stabilizes nutrients, making them more evenly available to plants
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
.Anaerobic digestion – Microbial breakdown in oxygen‑free conditions produces biogas (energy) and a nutrient‑rich digestate that can be applied as fertilizer
gardenerbible.com
gardenerbible.com
.Liquid/solid separation – Solids can be used for bedding or soil amendment; liquids still contain ~50% of original nutrients and can be land‑applied or processed further
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
.Phosphorus recovery – Chemical or biological processes can precipitate phosphorus from manure liquids for use as a fertilizer or other product
sustainability-directory.com
sustainability-directory.com
.These processes can yield more portable, balanced, and plant‑available nutrient products than raw manure
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
+1
.Benefits and Considerations
Resource value – Recovered nutrients reduce reliance on synthetic fertilizers and close nutrient loops in agriculture
sustainability-directory.com
sustainability-directory.com
.Environmental impact – Proper management prevents nutrient loss to waterways and reduces odor and pathogen risks
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
+1
.Application – Nutrient‑rich products can be used on‑farm, in gardens, or sold as commercial fertilizer
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
+1
.In summary: Nutrients can indeed be extracted from manure, and modern technologies allow this to be done efficiently, turning what is often considered waste into a valuable, sustainable resource.
So, it could be that processing devices could be put on the shallow sea floor of the river delta, and be beyond the damages that bad weather might produce.
Since this "Food Chain" would not be light dependent, it can be down as far as is convenient for the protection of the devicees.
The river in this case has barge transport, and the delta is also, convenient to Ocean shipping, so Acetate might be manufactured at locations where energy is available for it.
But it will be necessary to areate the process strongly, I expect, but otherwise it might become anoxic.
Clamlike creatures might be fed the Yeast or Algae, they are low activity organisms for perhaps they will burn less calories than fish, but I am not sure.
So, as I understand it the nutrients that might be concentrated may include items listed in the previous query.
Query: "What organisms could extract Uranium from water?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Organisms That Can Extract Uranium from Water
Several types of living organisms have been shown to take up or remove uranium from water, though the mechanisms differ between accumulation in tissues and active biomineralization.1. Aquatic invertebrates (bioaccumulation)
USGS laboratory studies have demonstrated that freshwater snails, such as Lymnaea stagnalis (pond snail), can accumulate uranium from dissolved uranium in water under a wide range of natural conditions
USGS.gov
USGS.gov
+1
. Uranium can enter these organisms directly from the water or via diet, and once inside, it is retained for long periods, leading to higher concentrations over the organism’s lifespan. Bioavailability is influenced by water chemistry — for example, higher alkalinity, hardness, or dissolved organic matter can reduce uptake
USGS.gov
USGS.gov
.2. Anaerobic bacteria (bioremediation)
Recent research from the Helmholtz‑Zentrum Dresden‑Rossendorf and collaborators found that anaerobic bacteria living in the oxygen‑depleted, uranium‑contaminated water of the flooded Schlema‑Alberoda uranium mine in Germany can “eat” dissolved uranium
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
+2
. When supplied with glycerol as a carbon source, these microbes convert soluble hexavalent uranium (U(VI)) into a stable pentavalent uranium mineral (FeU(V)O₄) that becomes locked in their cell walls. This process can remove about 95% of dissolved uranium from water within ~130 days
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
+1
. This is not simple accumulation but a metabolic transformation into a non‑mobile form.3. Other potential uranium‑interacting organisms
While the above are the most documented, other microorganisms (e.g., certain fungi and algae) and macroorganisms (e.g., aquatic plants, invertebrates) can adsorb or bind uranium to their surfaces or tissues, though these are generally less efficient and more variable than the bacterial mineralization process
USGS.gov
USGS.gov
+1
.Key differences
Bioaccumulation (snails, some fish, invertebrates): Uranium is stored in tissues, potentially posing toxicity risks.
Biomineralization (uranium‑reducing bacteria): Uranium is chemically transformed into a stable mineral, reducing its mobility and toxicity in water.
In summary:
Macro‑organisms: Freshwater snails (Lymnaea stagnalis) and possibly other aquatic invertebrates can take up uranium from water
USGS.gov
USGS.gov
+1
.Micro‑organisms: Anaerobic, uranium‑reducing bacteria in contaminated mine waters can extract and immobilize uranium via stable mineral formation
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
poochinthehouse.wordpress.com
+2
.These findings suggest that both traditional bioaccumulation studies and emerging bioremediation approaches can exploit different organisms to interact with uranium in water, but the mechanisms and environmental implications differ significantly.
So, I expect Uranium is more likely to come from Sea water.
But if you could extract it and also get nutrients that might be a good deal.
Ending
Last edited by Void (Today 10:59:11)
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here
#8 Today 11:18:38
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,952
Re: Obtaining materials from Brines-Seas
Continuing with the prior post, I think that a Biochar of Yeast or Algae, if done perhaps with concentrated solar energy, might produce hydrocarbons, and leave behind a biochar that would have the nutrients in it.
So, then perhaps Electric trucking and barges might move the biochar to farm fields.
The nutrients would then leach our of the biochar.
Ending
Be careful what you wish for.
Offline
Like button can go here