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#51 2026-06-29 10:51:50
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
So as insinuated here: 
In large blocks of ice, vast cities could be built.
Where I have implied that tubular vertical structure might be bounded and retained by ice pressure in a gravity field, it will also be possible to wrap such tubes in Carbon tensile webs and I suppose metal tensile methods.
Some time ago I did this drawing: 
Depicting in a fashion the Korolev Crater.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote: 
The interior north wall of the crater is at a favorable angle to collect solar enegy.
Granted, this far north that is going to be seasonal, so other sources of energy are wanted. Power beamed from orbit perhaps, and perhaps some form of Nuclear power.
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Last edited by Void (2026-06-29 10:59:39)
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#52 2026-06-30 12:32:10
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
This could also go under life support but here is gives the idea that if you have a power source Nuclear & Solar, and water ice and Mars Atmosphere and a suitable shelter, bulk food will not be a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LjyzmRcQPk
Quote:
The company Making Meat Obsolete Using Solar Panels & Thin Air
The Electric Viking
This along with Acetate and Oxygen to grow plants in low light (It is hoped), and the fact that you could likely grow mushrooms on the yellow goop above, indicates that food is not going to be such a problem.
The goop includes proteins with a good balance and also Vitamin B12,
So, you could also likely have Chickens and Chicken eggs.
And if you are fussy about things you could avoid killing things with faces, or that are multicellular, to create your food.
That might bring up a level in the eyes of some possible aliens that we might eventually have contact with.
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#53 2026-07-01 03:13:44
- Calliban
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
Impressive. This company is able to convert sunlight, CO2 and water, into 78% pure bioavailable protein. The process is healthier than any natural source and far more efficient. Turning this into things that people actually want to eat is the next big challenge.
In some ways, Mars with its cold almost pure CO2 atmosphere is almost perfect for electro-agriculture. On Earth, CO2 is a trace gas that is difficult and energy intensive to extract from air. On Mars, it is the bulk of the atmosphere. The low temperature makes compression relatively easy. Compressing it to liquid requires about 70wH/kg. The planet is further from the sun than Earth, but is mostly sunny. And nuclear reactors would work as well there as they do on Earth. Maybe food is something that a future Mars colony can profitably export.
Last edited by Calliban (2026-07-01 03:20:41)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#54 2026-07-01 06:23:19
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
I appreciate your post. Well typically we regard space as a place where organic materials such as food, will be hard to come by.
But it is primarily the dry worlds where this will be relatively true. (Until you import a quantity of appropriate chemicals).
Cellular and Precision agriculture expansion is just beginning it seems. I suppose we might think that some dairy products and Alcohol were in that class of products already.
I think that some sort of healthy fat production is desired as well as the protein that the Finns seem to be working on.
I am very comfortable with Nuclear Fission in space as an energy supply, but also solar will be reliable in many situations.
I think it would be good if vegetables could be grown under dim light and lots of Acetate and Oxygen. I have a suspicion that Duck Weed and Hydrilla may already have an enhanced pathway to consume Acetate, as Acetate is a product of decay in water.
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Does Duckweed Smother Oxygen in Water?
Duckweed can both produce oxygen and deplete it, depending on growth density, light availability, and decomposition processes.Oxygen production during the day
Like all green plants, duckweed performs photosynthesis in sunlight, absorbing carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen as a byproduct. This oxygen dissolves into the water, temporarily increasing dissolved oxygen (DO) levels, especially in small, calm water bodies with partial coverage biologyinsights.com+1.Oxygen depletion at night and under dense mats
At night, duckweed stops photosynthesis and continues respiration, consuming oxygen from the water. If the plant covers 50% or more of the surface, its collective nighttime respiration can rapidly lower DO levels biologyinsights.com.
A thick mat also acts as a physical barrier, blocking atmospheric oxygen from diffusing into the water and shading submerged plants and algae, which reduces their oxygen production biologyinsights.com+1.Decomposition and hypoxia
When duckweed dies, bacteria decompose the organic matter, consuming large amounts of oxygen. This process can cause hypoxia (low oxygen) or even anoxia (no oxygen) in the water column, especially at night when photosynthesis is absent iere.org+1.Net effect
In small, well-lit systems with light surface coverage, duckweed can be a short-term oxygen source. However, in large, nutrient-rich water bodies with dense mats, the nighttime respiration, blocked oxygen transfer, and decomposition often lead to a net oxygen deficit, which can harm fish and other aquatic life biologyinsights.com+2.In summary:
Daytime: Can oxygenate water via photosynthesis.
Nighttime & dense mats: Can deplete oxygen via respiration and decomposition.
Overall: In natural ponds with heavy coverage, duckweed often smothers oxygen rather than enriches it.
So, can Duckweed, turn a pond into a stomach where the Duckweed may benefit from the production of decay materials?
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Does Anoxic Water Produce Acetate?
In anoxic water, where dissolved oxygen is completely absent, the decomposition of organic matter is carried out by anaerobic microorganisms rather than aerobic bacteria. These anaerobic processes can produce a variety of reduced compounds, including acetate.How acetate is formed in anoxic water
When organic detritus (dead plant and animal material) sinks to the bottom of a lake, bay, or other water body, aerobic decomposition stops because there is no oxygen. Instead, anaerobic bacteria take over, using alternative electron acceptors such as nitrate, sulfate, or carbon dioxide. One common pathway is anaerobic respiration or fermentation, in which complex organic molecules are broken down into simpler compounds.In many of these processes, acetate (CH₃COO⁻) is a stable end product. For example:
Fermentation by certain anaerobic bacteria (e.g., Clostridium species) can convert sugars and other organic acids into acetate and other products.
Anaerobic digestion in sediments can also produce acetate as an intermediate in the breakdown of organic matter.
Other products in anoxic water
Alongside acetate, anaerobic decomposition in anoxic waters can produce:Hydrogen sulfide (H₂S) — often with a rotten egg smell, from sulfate-reducing bacteria biologyinsights.com.
Methane (CH₄) — from methanogenic archaea in some environments.
Carbon dioxide (CO₂) — from complete mineralization of organic matter.
Summary
Yes — anoxic water can produce acetate as part of anaerobic decomposition processes. Acetate is a common fermentation and anaerobic digestion product in oxygen-depleted environments, alongside other reduced compounds like hydrogen sulfide and methane biologyinsights.com. Wikipedia
So then we have seen experiments about growing vegetable crops, using Acetate and Oxygen. Algae and Yeast have a very good response to this but vascular land plants are limited. My suspicion is that Duckweed may have enhanced capability to utilize Acetate in water.
And I think it may be possible that other water creatures may also have those abilities. It may be that vascular land plants have a limited ability to utilize Acetate and other decay products as food.
Macro-Algae, "Do they have similar ability as microalgae does?"
Does Duckweed for Hydrilla? I we can find a vascular plant that is good at it perhaps it can be grafted into our vascular garden crops.
Of course we have not had an update on this for a while: https://www.snexplores.org/article/inno … ts-in-dark Quote:
Chemistry
No sun? No prob! A new process might soon grow plants in the dark
Electricity, not light, may one day power their growth — a special boon for space missions
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Growing Plants in the Dark with Acetate
Scientists have developed a light‑free method to grow plants by replacing sunlight‑driven photosynthesis with an artificial photosynthesis process that produces acetate as a food source.How it works
Traditional photosynthesis uses sunlight, water, and carbon dioxide to make glucose. Only about 1% of sunlight’s energy is converted into plant biomass, making it inefficient SciTechDaily+1. The new approach, led by researchers at the University of California, Riverside and the University of Delaware, uses a two‑step electrocatalytic process:Electrolyzer setup: Carbon dioxide, water, and electricity are fed into an electrolyzer.
Acetate production: The electrolyzer converts CO₂ and water into acetate (CH₃COOH), a simple organic molecule that plants can use for energy and growth Science News Explores+1.
Plant growth: Plants are grown in hydroponic systems with acetate as their primary carbon source, in complete darkness Modern Farmer.
The electricity for acetate production can come from solar panels or other power sources, but the plants themselves never receive sunlight SciTechDaily+1.
What’s been tested
Early experiments have shown success with:Algae, yeast, and fungal mycelium (mushrooms) Science News Explores+1
Food‑bearing crops such as lettuce, tomato, rice, canola, tobacco, green peas, and jalapeños BioTechniques+1
These plants were able to grow and even produce edible parts without any light exposure.
Efficiency gains
The acetate‑based method has been shown to be up to 18 times more efficient than natural photosynthesis for some crops SciTechDaily+1. This could be especially valuable in space agriculture, where sunlight is limited, or in controlled environments where light conditions are unstable.Potential applications
Space missions (e.g., Mars, lunar bases) where solar or nuclear power is available but sunlight is intermittent Science News ExploresUrban agriculture in buildings with limited sunlight
Climate‑resilient farming in areas with poor growing seasons
Current limitations
While the technology works in labs, scaling it for large‑scale agriculture will require:More efficient electrolyzers
Lower‑cost acetate production
Integration with existing plant growth systems
In short: You can grow plants in the dark by feeding them acetate made from CO₂ and electricity, bypassing the need for sunlight entirely. This could revolutionize food production in extreme or controlled environments Science News Explores+3.
I am considering the idea of a compromise where plants might be grown in low light with Acetate. I think this might work well eventually.
Making drawing: 
Not a particularly good drawing, but the artificial light source could be flipped between a concentrated light farm and a attenuated light farm. The Attenuated situation would supplement the growth of plants using Acetate and Oxygen.
Don't take the structure of the drawing as literal, but it is suggestive of methods. I am also incorporating human happiness into this. Humans could see perfectly well in 5% light so the attenuated lighting situation would be comfortable, but at times humans might want to be in the more intense light.
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Last edited by Void (2026-07-01 07:11:28)
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#55 2026-07-30 16:51:44
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
I guess I will put this here as I think it could apply to the Hellas Depression on Mars: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … f8320bdcc7
In this article it is noted that solar panels in a desert have an influence to reduce wind, and to provide other effects that make the land more habitable for life.
There may be significant glaciers, in certain parts of Hellas.
Query: "Glaciers in the Hellas Depression in Mars?"
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Glaciers in the Hellas Depression on Mars
The Hellas Depression (Hellas Planitia) in Mars’ southern hemisphere is one of the largest and deepest impact basins in the Solar System, with a floor about 7,152m below the datum and a diameter of ~2,300km Wikipedia. It is the lowest point on Mars and has long been considered a possible site for ancient water bodies and glaciers.Evidence for Glaciers
Radar data from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter’s SHARAD instrument has detected lobate debris aprons in the eastern part of Hellas Planitia. These features are interpreted as water-ice glaciers buried under thin layers of dust and rock debris marspedia.org. The ice is protected from sublimation by the debris cover, allowing it to persist despite Mars’ thin atmosphere.Glacial Landforms and Processes
Lobate debris aprons (LDAs) and lineated valley fills (LVFs) are classic Martian glacial features, often composed of ice with debris cover Wikipedia.In Hellas, some low-elevation outflow channels (e.g., Dao Vallis, Reull Vallis) show gully features that may have been shaped by glacial action or explosive boiling of water Wikipedia.
Honeycomb terrain in the basin floor may have formed from ice pushing up through the ground, creating domes later eroded into honeycomb patterns marspedia.org.
Ancient Glacial Activity
Recent research suggests that deep ice and glacial runoff sculpted the northeastern rim of Hellas over the last ~3billion years Planetary Science Institute. During periods when Mars’ axial tilt was more extreme, the region could have been cold enough for glaciers to form, even if warmer than today. In these conditions, meltwater beneath glaciers may have carved latticework valleys rather than the branching valleys typical of surface runoff.Climate Context
Today, stable glaciers are mostly confined to latitudes poleward of ~30°, but Hellas’ depth and location mean it could have hosted glaciers at lower latitudes in the past Wikipedia. The presence of such glaciers implies that Mars’ climate was warmer and wetter in the past, with ice stable enough to accumulate and flow.In summary: The Hellas Depression contains buried lobate debris aprons and other glacial landforms, indicating that it once hosted glaciers of water ice protected by debris. These glaciers likely shaped the basin’s terrain through both ice flow and subglacial meltwater, during a warmer, wetter period in Mars’ history Wikipedia+2.
Query: "How do global dust storms start on Mars?"
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Global dust storms on Mars are massive, planet-encircling events that occur roughly once every three Martian years, capable of reducing sunlight and affecting surface operations.
Overview
Mars experiences frequent dust storms, particularly during the southern hemisphere's spring and summer, when the planet is warmer and dust is more easily lifted from the surface. While smaller regional storms occur annually, global dust storms—also called planet-encircling storms—happen about once every three Martian years (roughly every 5.5 Earth years) and can last for weeks to months, covering the entire planet with dust
NASA
NASA
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.Causes and Development
Global dust storms often begin as smaller regional storms, typically originating from southern regions like the Hellas Basin or Acidalia/Chryse areas. Warm, sunny days can trigger these storms, and as they move toward the equator, they can grow rapidly, fueled by thermal contrasts between the Martian regolith and ice-covered surfaces
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+2
. The thin Martian atmosphere—about 0.5–1% the density of Earth's—means that while winds can reach up to 60 mph, the force exerted is much weaker than on Earth, though dust particles can still accumulate and interfere with equipment
NASA
NASA
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.Impacts
Global dust storms significantly reduce sunlight, which can drop illumination by up to 60% on average, with extreme cases reducing it to 1% for extended periods. This has major consequences for solar-powered rovers and landers, as seen during the 2018 storm that enveloped Mars. NASA’s Opportunity rover lost power due to dust blocking its solar panels and eventually ceased operations after months of inactivity
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. Dust storms also generate electrostatic charges, which can interfere with electronics and pose hazards for future crewed missions
ScienceAlert
ScienceAlert
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.Historical Example: 2018 Global Dust Storm
The 2018 storm began in late May as a regional event in the northern hemisphere and rapidly expanded to cover the entire planet by mid-June. The dust optical depth reached τ=5 globally, with local peaks up to τ=10, drastically reducing visibility and sunlight penetration. The storm lasted until late July, demonstrating the speed and intensity with which Martian dust storms can develop
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Considerations for Future Missions
Understanding the triggers and behavior of global dust storms is critical for planning robotic and human missions. Scientists are studying weather patterns and surface conditions to improve forecasting, which is essential for energy management, equipment protection, and astronaut safety on Mars
ScienceAlert
ScienceAlert
+1
.
Global dust storms are a defining feature of Mars’ climate, shaping both the planet’s surface environment and the operational strategies for exploration.
Hellas would be the place with the least radiation damage, even as it is now.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia0348 … e-on-mars/
Image Quote: 
You can see that Hellas is much better for radiation than the rest of Mars.
I suggest that digging holes in Hellas and also building greenhouses that are part solar panels and window glass may make it possible to grow vegetation. (In the greenhouses)
Query: "Moss that could grow on Mars?"
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Yes, certain types of moss, particularly Syntrichia caninervis, have shown potential to survive and thrive in Martian conditions, making them candidates for future colonization efforts.
The Resilience of Syntrichia caninervis
Syntrichia caninervis, also known as steppe screw moss, is a desert moss that has demonstrated remarkable resilience to extreme environmental conditions. Research indicates that this moss can withstand freezing temperatures as low as -196°C, high levels of gamma radiation, and conditions that simulate the Martian environment
EarthSky
EarthSky
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.Experimental Findings
Survival in Harsh Conditions: In laboratory tests, Syntrichia caninervis survived prolonged exposure to freezing temperatures and radiation, showcasing its ability to regenerate even after extreme stress
EarthSky
EarthSky
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.
Potential for Mars Colonization: Researchers from the Chinese Academy of Sciences propose that this moss could be used by astronauts to help establish sustainable habitats on Mars. It may not only survive but could also assist in growing other plants directly in Martian soil without the need for greenhouses
ScienceAlert
ScienceAlert
+1
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Implications for Future Missions
The ability of Syntrichia caninervis to thrive in conditions that are typically lethal to most life forms positions it as a promising candidate for pioneering plant species in extraterrestrial environments. This could lay the groundwork for more complex ecosystems and support human colonization efforts on Mars
ScienceDaily
ScienceDaily
+1
.Conclusion
While the research is still in preliminary stages, the findings regarding Syntrichia caninervis are encouraging. They suggest that with further study and experimentation, moss could play a significant role in future Mars missions, potentially aiding in the creation of biologically sustainable habitats for human life beyond Earth.
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Syntrichia caninervis — Steppe Screw Moss
Syntrichia caninervis, commonly called steppe screw moss, is a cosmopolitan desert moss species known for its extreme tolerance to desiccation and ability to thrive in harsh, arid environments Wikipedia.Taxonomy and Description
Kingdom: PlantaeClade: Embryophytes
Division: Bryophyta
Class: Bryopsida
Subclass: Dicranidae
Order: Pottiales
Family: Pottiaceae
Genus: Syntrichia
Species: S. caninervis (Mitt.) Broth. Wikipedia
It was first described by William Mitten in 1858–1859 and is part of the large Syntrichia genus, which includes over 100 species Wikipedia.Adaptations and Ecology
S. caninervis is an extremophile adapted to survive prolonged dry periods without water. It uses tiny hairs (setae) to collect dew, fog, snow, and rain, functioning as a “water harvesting” system instead of roots Wikipedia.
It is a dominant bryophyte in biological soil crusts in arid regions such as the Mojave Desert and the Gurbantunggut Desert Frontiers. These crusts stabilize soil, prevent erosion, and contribute to nutrient cycling in deserts.Distribution
This moss has a widespread global distribution, occurring in:Asia: China, Mongolia, Siberia, Tibet, Antarctica, circumpolar regions
EuropeNorth America: Western and northwestern U.S. (e.g., Mojave Desert, Columbia River basin) and parts of Canada (British Columbia, Alberta) Wikipedia.
Desiccation Tolerance Mechanisms
Recent studies show S. caninervis can survive simulated Martian conditions Wikipedia.Metabolomic analysis reveals shifts in pathways like phenylpropanoid biosynthesis, lipid metabolism, and carbohydrate metabolism during dehydration–rehydration cycles Oxford Academic.
Transcriptomic profiling identifies stress-related genes (e.g., LEA, ELIP proteins) and transcription factors (AP2-ERF, bHLH, MYB, NAC, WRKY, bZIP) that regulate water stress responses, membrane metabolism, and photosynthesis Frontiers.
Photosynthesis-related genes are suppressed during dehydration but reactivated during rehydration, while antioxidant enzymes (peroxidase, superoxide dismutase) help mitigate oxidative stress Frontiers.
Conservation Status
IUCN: Least Concern (Europe regional assessment)NatureServe: Secure Wikipedia
Summary
S. caninervis is a remarkable example of plant adaptation to extreme environments. Its unique water-harvesting structures, robust desiccation tolerance, and resilience in biological soil crusts make it a model species for studying survival in arid and extraterrestrial conditions.
Wind breaks in places like Hellas, could strongly help to improve the climate of Mars, in my opinion.
Digging ditches for dust to fall into could help.
But also greenhouses that may be composed partially of solar panels and partly of glass.
Those enclosures might be slightly pressurized when the humidity outside is high, with moisture being drawn in.
I think that with terraforming that eliminates most frozen CO2, pressures in Hellas could become 24 to 33 Millibars.
This might make growing crops in slightly pressurized greenhouses possible. And these constructions could double to help control the dust in the atmosphere.
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Last edited by Void (2026-07-30 17:30:48)
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#56 2026-08-12 08:56:14
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
This morning I am considering Mars as part of the Space Compute structure that may emerge in the solar system. An early member of a "Dyson Swarm".
Granted, it is not as energy rich as some other parts of the solar system, and the time latency is rather large. But it is cold and has raw materials in abundance in itself and in orbit (Phobos and Deimos).
Although it has more radiation than Earth, it is possible to enhance radiation protection with the processing of raw materials.
In this scheme I am going to presume that most energy for Mars will come from sun synchronous platforms in orbit beaming microwave or maybe laser energy down to the surface.
I was considering a cone shape as a sort of method to house the AI, but I have become attracted to the shape of Starship. It can hold up to 6 bar pressure. I think 1 bar would be fine, of Nitrogen and Oxygen. While it is tippy on the surface of a world standing on its end, various forms of bracing could be implemented to stabilize whole "Farms" of such structures serving as radiators, and housing AI.
In this drawing I am using light blue to signify a pressurized gas, perhaps N2/O2 at 1 bar.
I am also assuming a Mars where Ice and Atmosphere are converted to Methane, and the Methane is piped around planet wide as a method of "Irrigation". Water can be derived from Methane if reacted with Mars atmospheres Oxygen (From CO2).
The product to sell then is data processing.
With Methane piped around the planet, leakage will naturally help to terraform the planet, making it somewhat warmer, but it will still be a very cold planet, but have better radiation protection if the Dry Ice in the poles is vaporized into the atmosphere.
I am looking at the Starship shape as a radiator as SpaceX is making the production of such shapes robotic in nature. So then robots might produce such shapes on Earth or other worlds such as Mars.
The heat from data processing might first heat human habitats and then be vented into these "Radiators".
I expect in such a future, people will also live in orbit in well protected habitats.
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Last edited by Void (2026-08-12 09:22:20)
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#57 2026-08-12 11:26:30
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
Continuing with the prior post #56, Quote:
In this drawing I am using light blue to signify a pressurized gas, perhaps N2/O2 at 1 bar
Query: "What is the tallest building that could be built on the Planet Mars?"
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The Tallest Possible Building on Mars
There is no definitive “tallest building” figure for Mars because it depends on the technology, materials, and environmental adaptations available at the time of construction. However, architectural and engineering concepts suggest that tall, vertical structures could be built, but they would be fundamentally different from Earth skyscrapers.Why Mars Allows for Very Tall Buildings
Lower gravity (38% of Earth’s): This reduces the structural load on tall structures, making them more feasible than on Earth Parametric Architecture.No strong wind forces: Mars’ thin atmosphere means wind pressure is much lower, so tall buildings wouldn’t need to be as wind-resistant Parametric Architecture.
Radiation shielding: All surface structures must be heavily shielded from cosmic and solar radiation, which could influence design (e.g., thick regolith walls, underground placement, or pressurized domes) sustainablesystemstech.co.za.
Design Considerations
Material sourcing: Martian regolith (soil) could be 3D‑printed into bricks or composites, reducing the need to bring heavy building materials from Earth sustainablesystemstech.co.za.Radiation protection: Tall buildings would need thick shielding or be built underground to protect occupants sustainablesystemstech.co.za.
Thermal extremes: Temperatures can swing from ~20°C in the day to -125°C at night, so insulation and thermal control are critical sustainablesystemstech.co.za.
Dust storms: Structures must resist abrasive Martian dust, which can damage surfaces and seals sustainablesystemstech.co.za.
Visionary Examples
Nüwa Martian City (SpaceArchitect.org) proposes a vertical “Macro‑building” system inside cliffs, with elevators connecting multiple levels. While not a single skyscraper, it shows how tall, multi‑level structures could be integrated into Martian cities SpaceArchitect.org.ICE House (Clouds AO + SEArch) uses ice for radiation shielding and 3D printing, showing how materials can be adapted for both structure and protection ArchDaily.
On Earth, the X‑Seed 4000 is a 4,000m (13,000ft) skyscraper concept, but such a structure would be impossible on Mars without massive shielding and life support systems Wikipedia.
Practical Limits
While Mars’ low gravity and thin air make it easier to build tall structures than on Earth, the main limiting factors are:Radiation protection requirements
Thermal and dust resistance
Life support integration
Availability of construction materials
If all these are addressed, tall, multi‑story buildings could reach hundreds of meters, and in the most advanced scenarios, tens of kilometers in height (like Earth’s visionary skyscrapers) could be imagined, though they would be heavily shielded and self‑sustaining Wikipedia+1.
In short: The tallest possible building on Mars could be far taller than any Earth skyscraper, but its height would be constrained by radiation shielding, material availability, and environmental protection — not by gravity or wind.
I guess the answer is "Taller than on Earth".
So, here is the thing. For all the metals you might refine to make such buildings, you would release Oxygen by reducing the ores.
And if Phobos and Deimos were made into habitats much of the Oxygen from them could end up in the Mars atmosphere.
Over time the atmospheric pressure could build up.
At the top of these building, you might put habitats for humans. You could easily shield them with containers of water. You might even have light coming in though the water.
But the roots of the buildings would all be connected by undergrounds of tunnels and vaults, where the materials may be reduced to eventually cover the whole planet in a forest of such buildings.
Mars might export volatiles to stony asteroids, and the stony asteroids might be moved into Mars orbits as new moons, Using Plasma Electric propulsion methods and Ballistic Capture.
The entire hill sphere of Mars devoted to collecting solar energy to beam down to Mars. You might use microwaves, or lasers, because by that time you would have all of the dust controlled/converted to structures.
In time perhaps an atmospheric pressure high enough to go outside with minimum protection.
Making money all the time generating compute and housing for humans and robots.
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Last edited by Void (2026-08-12 11:38:10)
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#58 2026-08-12 18:21:02
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
Calliban has provided some very interesting information here, about the crust of Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 03#p240903
Mars appears to be to be a place where the Boring Companies machines might work well.
Quote:
It turns out that large parts of the planet's crust has remained unaltered since it's formation.
Query: "what is the deepest mine on Earth?"
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The deepest mine in the Earth is the Mponeng Gold Mine, located in Carletonville, South Africa. It reaches a depth of approximately 4 kilometers (2.5 miles) below the Earth's surface and is known for its advanced mining technology
miningdigital.com
For Mars I will guess that you might be able to go down 3 times as deep, maybe more with new invention.
If the Earth's atmosphere were of water vapor and you condensed it, that would cover the Earth with a layer of water about 33 feet, 10 meters deep. This is approximation we do not need precision for this.
If we place 33 feet/10 meters of water onto a imaginary flat Mars, and then vaporized it we would get about 1/3 bar of pressure. This is because the gravity is ~1/3 that of Earth.
IF we dig 33 feet/10 meters of rock out of the crust of Mars instead of water and then reduced it we would only get some part of the 33 feet/10 meters as Oxygen and if we are lucky maybe some Carbon and maybe even some Nitrogen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance … %27s_crust
This might be saying the Earth is about 46% Oxygen?
Unfortunately many substances such as Silicon will demand their Oxygen back immediately.
But Iron, Aluminum and some others will allow it to be borrowed for a time. If structures are made on the surface of Mars out of these, then if they are kept away from corrosion, they may lend their Oxygen for a very long time.
But in truth, you would need to process many times 33 feet/10 meters of crust to obtain an ~1/3 bar of atmosphere.
But the tunnels and vaults could be a vast underground for a civilization to use.
Phobos and Demos may allow the stripping of Oxygen from most their materials, and in the process to make vast arrays of machines in orbit of Mars.
Asteroids that swing by Mars could perhaps be captured to it with trust methods and to utilize Ballistic Capture. Then the Oxygen from these objects might be put into the atmosphere of Mars.
Humans doing it could not afford to do, it but with solar energy and robots, perhaps it could be done, and much quicker than people may think.
Anyway, Mars might be quite a world some day.
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Last edited by Void (2026-08-12 18:44:28)
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#59 Today 08:05:53
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,778
Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
With only partial information on the nature of Deimos/Phobos/Mars, I would like to find solid ground for production of resources from confirmed and probable raw materials.
I am going to run on the idea that Phobos and Deimos are primarily the result of an impact or impacts of Mars that ejected materials into orbit. Secondarily I think it is very possible that additional contributions have come in the form of fine materials from other sources.
Query: "Do Phobos and Demos have Carbon on them?"
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Carbon Content in Phobos and Deimos
Recent spectroscopic observations of Phobos and Deimos have revealed evidence for carbon-rich materials on their surfaces. Using the Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) on NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, scientists detected a distinct absorption feature at about 0.65 micrometers in both moons’ spectra. This feature is reproducible in observations from other instruments and is consistent with the presence of Fe-bearing phyllosilicates and/or graphite NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).Graphite is a form of elemental carbon, and its spectral signature matches that of carbonaceous chondrites — a class of meteorites rich in carbon and organic compounds. The spectral similarity between Phobos and Deimos and the “red” unit of Phobos suggests that both moons have compositions akin to CM-type carbonaceous chondrites NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
This finding supports the hypothesis that Phobos and Deimos may be captured asteroids from the outer asteroid belt, which are known to be carbon-rich. Alternatively, they could be fragments from a giant impact on Mars that produced carbon-rich debris discoverwildscience.com+1.
In summary:
Yes, Phobos and Deimos show spectroscopic evidence for carbon-bearing materials, likely in the form of graphite.
Their compositions are consistent with carbonaceous chondrites, indicating a carbon-rich origin.
This supports theories that they are either captured asteroids or impact debris from Mars.
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So, I am going to take that as probable existance of some Carbon in some of the surface materials of the two moons.
So, it may be possible to bake these materials and extract Carbon compounds from them, perhaps CO and CO2, maybe something else.
Query: "Which Oxides can be reduced with Hot Hydrogen?"
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Oxides Reduced by Hot Hydrogen
Hot hydrogen gas (H₂) acts as a reducing agent, removing oxygen from metal oxides to produce the pure metal. This is possible only for oxides of metals less reactive than hydrogen in the reactivity series allen.in+1.General Rule
Metals below hydrogen in the reactivity series can have their oxides reduced by hot hydrogen.Metals above hydrogen (e.g., Na, K, Ca, Mg, Al) cannot be reduced by hydrogen; their oxides require stronger reducing agents or electrolysis Vedantu.
Common Examples
Copper(II) oxide (CuO):
CuO(s) + H₂(g) → Cu(s) + H₂O(g) allen.in+1Tin(II) oxide (SnO):
SnO(s) + H₂(g) → Sn(s) + H₂O(g)Lead(II) oxide (PbO):
PbO(s) + H₂(g) → Pb(s) + H₂O(g)Zinc oxide (ZnO):
ZnO(s) + H₂(g) → Zn(s) + H₂O(g) SorumatikIron(III) oxide (Fe₂O₃):
Fe₂O₃(s) + 3H₂(g) → 2Fe(s) + 3H₂O(g) SorumatikWhy These Work
These metals (Cu, Sn, Pb, Zn, Fe) are less reactive than hydrogen, so hydrogen can displace them from their oxides. In the reaction, hydrogen is oxidized to water, and the metal is reduced from its oxide form Sorumatik.Summary Table
Metal Oxide Reduced by Hot H₂?
Example ReactionCu CuO Yes
CuO + H₂ → Cu + H₂OSn SnO Yes
SnO + H₂ → Sn + H₂OPb PbO Yes
PbO + H₂ → Pb + H₂OZn ZnO Yes
ZnO + H₂ → Zn + H₂OFe Fe₂O₃ Yes
Fe₂O₃ + 3H₂ → 2Fe + 3H₂OMg MgO No (too reactive)
—Al Al₂O₃ No (too reactive)
—In short: Oxides of copper, tin, lead, zinc, and iron can be reduced by hot hydrogen, while oxides of metals more reactive than hydrogen (e.g., Mg, Al, Na, K) cannot allen.in+2.
Of these I think that Iron will be the bulk of what could be reduced by roasting in hot Hydrogen. Perhaps a little Nickle. They are both magnetic when reduced.
*This process will make Oxygen from produced water available. The Hydrogen may be recycled.
So, a magnetic process might be able to separate the grains that are magnetic from those that are not.
*Magnetic Grains will tend to not be pure reduced metals. However, these dust grains might be possible to expel from a Mass Driver propulsion system to propel a spacecraft. In early days that may be a useful method, but better methods are to be desired.
I do not expect to extract Hydrogen from the two moons. Phobos may have ice according to some people, but it may be hard to access. Instead, I expect to get Hydrogen from Mars itself to do the roasting process.
Two types of ships may be available for Mars that might lift Hydrogen to orbit from Mars:
1) Starship may be loaded with extra Methane. It's heat shield process may or may not be practical for repeatable use.
2) Ships like Stoke Space, Blue Origin may create a similar ship. These may lift Hydrogen, Methane, or some other hydrocarbon to orbit.
Extracting Hydrogen from a hydrocarbon may be acceptable, as the Carbon also extracted can be useful for other proposes.
Hydrogen can be repeatedly reused, per a video from https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
The beneficiated "Ore" which is magnetic could be processed by various means to produce a Metal alloy dominated by Iron, I expect.
*So, at this point you could have the following resources in orbit:
-Oxygen
-Water
-Carbon Compounds
-Iron/Steel
-Slag/Stone/Sintered or cast parts.
Using Iron/Steel, you could bond Slag/Stone/Sintered or Cast Parts, into larger orbital structures. For instance, you might contain stones in a Chicken-Wire enclosure to provide some protection from the space environment.
You might wrap Slag/Stone/Sintered or Cast Parts in an Iron or Steel foil and let vacuum welding bond the into a larger structure.
Mirrors could be made of steel, perhaps coated with a bit of Aluminum.
At some point then a method to extract some substances like Aluminum is needed.
I think that Blue Origin's "Blue Alchemist" might be used for that: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … astructure Quote:
Blue Origin's breakthrough in-space resource utilization system aims to turn lunar regolith into solar arrays, metals, and breathable and propellant-grade oxygen, enabling sustainable robotic and human Moon missions and future Mars exploration
Query: "Aluminum ores on Mars?" (It might be that producing Aluminum will be easier on the Martian surface).
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Aluminum Ores on Mars
Aluminum is the third most abundant element in the Martian crust, after oxygen and silicon, making up about 8.1% by weight marspedia.org. On Mars, most aluminum is locked in alumina-silicate minerals such as feldspars (KAlSi₃O₈, NaAlSi₃O₈, CaAl₂Si₂O₈) marspedia.org. These minerals form from igneous rocks and are widespread due to Mars’s volcanic history and crustal composition Wikipedia.Occurrence and Forms
Alumina-rich rocks: The NASA Perseverance rover has found light-toned float rocks in Jezero Crater with ~35 wt% Al₂O₃, rich in kaolinite/halloysite in hydrated samples and spinel in dehydrated ones USGS.gov. These likely formed from intense aqueous alteration of ultramafic rocks, followed by dehydration and lithification.Alumina dust and clays: Erosion by wind or ancient water could have liberated alumina (Al₂O₃) as fine dust, which may have compacted into silts and clays over time marspedia.org.
Bauxite-like deposits: On Earth, bauxite is the main aluminum ore, but it forms from tropical weathering. Mars lacks such conditions, so bauxite is unlikely, but alumina-rich clays could serve a similar purpose marspedia.org.
Potential Uses
Aluminum is valued for its lightweight, high strength, and recyclability, making it ideal for spacecraft, habitats, and infrastructure on Mars marspedia.org. Producing it locally would reduce reliance on Earth-supplied materials.Production Challenges
Separation: On Earth, alumina is extracted from bauxite via the Bayer process. On Mars, separating aluminum from silicate minerals would require processing.Reduction methods: Current Earth methods use electrolysis of Al₂O₃, which needs carbon anodes and significant electrical power. On Mars, if thermal energy is cheaper than electricity, carbothermic reduction could be more attractive marspedia.org.
Carbon source: Mars has no coal, so carbon could come from methane clathrates or extraction from CO₂ in the atmosphere marspedia.org.
New technologies: Alcoa’s carbon-free electrolytic process could be adapted for Mars if power and materials are available marspedia.org.
Summary
Mars has abundant aluminum in its crust, primarily in feldspars and alumina-rich clays, with recent discoveries of highly alumina-rich rocks in Jezero Crater USGS.gov. While no bauxite exists, these alumina-rich materials could be mined and processed for in-situ aluminum production, supporting future Martian infrastructure. The key challenges are mineral separation and energy-intensive reduction, but advances in processing and alternative carbon sources could make Martian aluminum production feasible.
So, for Deimos/Phobos/Mars, Aluminum along with Carbon may be valuable in electrical needs. In orbit, perhaps small amounts could render steel mirrors more reflective. Mirrors in orbit, could be useful in harvesting power in orbit, some of which could be beamed down to the surface of Mars.
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Last edited by Void (Today 09:06:19)
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