You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Announcement
Pages: 1
#1 2005-06-22 10:08:28
- Palomar
- Member
- From: USA
- Registered: 2002-05-30
- Posts: 9,734
Re: Life Finds a Way
http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/ … osynthesis without sunshine
*Discovered off one of Mexico's coastal lines. Is the first such known organism and is classed as an extremophile. Lives more than a mile undersea and relies on the capture of dim radiation via hydrothermal vents -- and sulfur -- to produce energy.
Implications for life elsewhere contemplated...which of course could include Mars.
--Cindy
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
Offline
Like button can go here
#2 2005-07-19 14:04:04
- Palomar
- Member
- From: USA
- Registered: 2002-05-30
- Posts: 9,734
Re: Life Finds a Way
http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/ … ife.html]A community of clams...
*Found 1/2 mile down, on the ocean floor...in Antarctica. They and bacteria are surviving near-freezing temps and sunless conditions. Discovery made after 2002 ice shelf collapse.
Ties in with the article above, of course...and implications for extremophiles, possible life elsewhere in the Solar System including Mars of course.
Since light could not penetrate the ice or water, these organisms do not use photosynthesis to make energy. Instead, these extreme creatures get their energy from methane
Wow. Clams...
bacteria, no surprise. But clams?? LOL!
--Cindy
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
Offline
Like button can go here
#3 2023-10-01 05:56:09
- Mars_B4_Moon
- Member
- Registered: 2006-03-23
- Posts: 9,809
Re: Life Finds a Way
an old thread maybe it could be suitable for the extremophile topic
Life on Earth could have started in hydrothermal vents deep under the sea
https://www.postguam.com/news/national/ … 59833.html
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-01 05:56:56)
Offline
Like button can go here
#4 2026-04-21 12:48:07
- tahanson43206
- Moderator
- Registered: 2018-04-27
- Posts: 24,475
Re: Life Finds a Way
This topic was created by Palomar. The article linked below is about research on debris found by Curiosity. The research does NOT report discovery of life on Mars. What it ** does ** do is to show that precursor molecules are present in the debris left behind when one of the bodies of water that existed on Mars eons ago evaporated. The article also discusses discovery of precursor molecules on asteroids in deep space, far from Earth.
A New Discovery Brings Fresh Clues to the Search for Life on Mars
by
Jeffrey KlugerEditor at Large
Apr 21, 2026 5:00 AM ET
The Curiosity rover captured this selfie at the clay-rich site where the new study was conducted.NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSSThe Curiosity rover landed on Mars way too late to observe barren Gale Crater when it was potentially lush Gale Lake. Three and half billion years ago, the 95-mile-wide basin sloshed with water, as did much of the rest of the planet, until Mars lost its magnetic field, the solar wind stripped away its atmosphere, and most of its water sputtered away into space. In 2012, NASA’s Curiosity rover landed in Gale Crater, looking for clues that the planet’s ancient, wet environment could have supported life. Now, as a study in Nature Communications reports, Curiosity may not have only found conditions that could have hosted life, but chemicals that, on Earth at least, are building blocks of biology.
The new research was led by Amy Williams, professor of geological sciences at the University of Florida, and a mission scientist for both Curiosity and the later Perseverance rover. Their work involved experiments begun in 2020 on an especially clay-rich region of the crater; on Earth clays are known to preserve organic compounds and minerals. The work relied on a highly toxic, highly corrosive chemical known as TMAH. On Earth, TMAH is used in semiconductor manufacturing, etching away unwanted material on the surface of a microchip. About 500 microliters—or millionths of a liter—were carried aboard Curiosity. On Mars, the chemical can be used to dissolve chemicals in rocks and clay, releasing them as gasses, and allowing them to be analyzed by an onboard instrument known as Sample Analysis at Mars, or SAM.
“TMAH is very, very alkaline, and it's able to break apart what we call macro molecular carbon, really large, complex aromatic materials,” says Williams. “It makes those smaller components [that result] detectable to the SAM instrument.”
In the course of its analysis, SAM found 20 telltale molecules, none of which were proof of extant or even past biology, but many of which could be related. “We can't really tell if any of them were formed by biology,” Williams says. ”But what we can say is that there's a diversity of organic materials, that they came from something larger, more complex, and some of them we know are related to precursors for the building blocks for life as we know it.”
One of the more tantalizing of the chemicals the study uncovered is benzothiophene, a two-ringed molecule containing carbon and nitrogen. It’s actually no surprise that SAM sniffed out the chemical on Mars, since it’s in a whole lot of other places as well. “Benzothiophene is one of the ones that we're excited about, because it actually forms in the interstellar medium, on meteorites,” says Williams. “If this did rain down from meteorites, you might be seeing some of the oldest organic molecules formed in the Solar System preserved in these rocks.”
Benzothiophene is not the only one of the chemicals that could have been carried to Mars aboard meteors; so could most of the other ones the SAM instrument detected. That, actually, is not a surprise, as a growing body of evidence has shown that space rubble teems with organic material. A 2025 paper in Nature Astronomy reported the discovery of 14 amino acids that could be used to make proteins in samples from the asteroid Bennu. The Murchison meteorite, which fell in Australia in 1969, was later found to contain a prebiotic organic molecule called hexamethylenetetramine.
If organic building blocks did hitch a rise to Mars on meteorites, their presence today might not necessarily indicate that anything living arose from them. The ingredients for life may have simply landed on the planet without ever having been baked into biology. In the alternative, native chemistry on the planet may have combined with immigrant chemistry on the space rocks to produce something living. That, at least, is what many scientists believe happened on Earth.
“The consensus is building that for the origin of life on Earth, there's probably stuff made geologically in situ, and stuff delivered exogenously from meteorites,” says Williams. “And it's probably that combination that led to the origin of life.”
More research is to come. Williams and her colleagues have performed similar experiments at another site in Gale Crater and are now processing the results. Meantime, SAM systems are set to fly on the European Space Agency’s Rosalind Franklin Mars rover, scheduled for liftoff in 2028, as well as on NASA’s Dragonfly roto-copter probe that will be launched to Saturn’s moon Titan in 2027. Whether any of these studies will discover proof of biology is impossible to know, but there is some cause for optimism
“We do see building blocks on meteorites,” says Williams. “If those same kinds of seed stocks were raining down on Mars at a time when Mars had water and was more habitable, is it possible that that contributed to an origin of life? We don't know, but [if] that's what happened on Earth, you can remain hopeful.”
(th)
Offline
Like button can go here
#5 2026-04-21 16:44:03
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,437
Re: Life Finds a Way
Interesting (th).
As I understand it there are maybe four reasons that life could not live in present day Mars.
1) No Water
2) Too Cold
3) Radiation
4) Perchlorates.
But there are life forms on Earth that can tolerate each of those conditions.
1) Lichens can pull water out of the atmosphere at 70 to 100 % Relative Humidity. In many places this humidity may occur before sunrise.
2) Lichens can metabolize down to -20 C.
3) A black Fungus eats radiation and UV.
4) Some microbes can eat Perchlorate.
The question is could there be an organism that could work with all 4 of these problems?
So, it has looked like Mars might be able to support life of some kind at this time. But it also is suspected that Mars could have had better or worse environments in the past. During a enduring bad spell, life might have gone extinct. A bad spell might have an atmosphere of less than 1 millibar pressure, which could have occurred perhaps when the axis would be tilted to freeze out almost all CO2 into the polar ice caps.
1) Quote:
Lichens can effectively pull water out of the atmosphere at 70 to 100% relative humidity, which is often found before sunrise. They utilize atmospheric water vapor as a primary source of hydration, allowing them to thrive in dry environments. Lichens do not have specialized organs for water uptake; instead, they absorb water from the air, and their water content can drop to 15-30% during dry spells, becoming metabolically inactive until humidity increases.
2) Quote:
Lichens can continue their metabolism down to -20 degrees Celsius due to their unique adaptations. They possess specialized structures that allow them to survive in extreme conditions, including polar regions. Their metabolic processes are adapted to low temperatures, enabling them to endure harsh environmental conditions and maintain their physiological functions.
3) Quote:
The black fungus, Cladosporium sphaerospermum, has been observed to thrive in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, where it appears to "eat" radiation. This phenomenon, known as radiosynthesis, involves the fungus using ionizing radiation as a source of energy to drive metabolic processes. The melanin in the fungus's cell walls absorbs and neutralizes radiation, similar to how chlorophyll harnesses sunlight in plants. This ability to convert radiation into usable energy allows the fungus to grow in areas with intense radioactive exposure, offering a potential solution for radiation contamination cleanup.
I suspect that it can use Ultraviolet radiation as an energy source, but I do not have strong data for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
4) Quote:
Yes
Yes, some organisms can eat perchlorates. Certain microorganisms, such as those capable of growth via perchlorate reduction, have been isolated and can utilize perchlorate to produce harmless chloride and oxygen. These microorganisms can thrive in environments where perchlorate is present, potentially aiding in soil and dust cleanup.
CDC
So, I am guessing that even if a organism that can work with all four factors does not exist at this time, it could have or maybe could/does exist somewhere in the universe.
Ending Pending 
Quote:
In Mars simulations, several organisms have been tested for survival under Martian conditions:
Aspergillus calidoustus: This fungus has shown remarkable survival under Martian solar irradiation and atmospheric conditions, demonstrating its resilience to extreme environments.
1
Lichens: Certain lichen species, such as Diploschistes muscorum and Cetraria aculeata, have been found to remain metabolically active under simulated Martian conditions, including exposure to ionizing radiation.
1
Bacterial species: Studies have evaluated the survival of bacteria like Burkholderia cepacia, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Serratia marcescens, and Klebsiella pneumoniae in Martian simulated conditions, highlighting their potential survival risks for human missions.
1These findings underscore the importance of understanding microbial resilience in the context of Mars exploration and planetary protection strategies.
My Opinion:
While I consider this to be a very nice set of results, it needs to be considered that Socialists, Monarchists, and others who view common people to be financial assets that they the elites are justified to exploit for wealth, they may use the planetary protection concerns as a political tool to accomplish their objectives of subjugation of societies to milk them for wealth.But I also do consider it important to be concerned about the matter. I just don't want a bunch of psychopathic elites to cripple the human race.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-04-21 17:08:09)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#6 2026-04-22 08:36:43
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,437
Re: Life Finds a Way
I received a positive answer to the question "Can Black fungus found in nuclear reactors use Ultraviolet light?"
I got that on a query on my phone, not on my computer though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
Quote:
Radiotrophic fungus
A question is, can this fungus live in Mars simulations? Let's say the Mars day/night thermal cycle with the Relative Humidity effects?
As I mentioned in the previous post, some Lichen seem to be able to pluck moisture out of the air in such simulations and are somewhat tolerant of UV light. However, they do not appear to use UV light to grow.
Some situations on Mars will have daytimes that are above the freezing point of fresh water. But some Lichens can run a metabolism even if the temperatures are as low as -20 degrees C.
How does the black fungus or it's relatives tolerate these situations?
Then finally if some strain of the black fungus can work with all of that, how might it react to Perchlorates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then the question can be poised, did life related to black fungus live on the lands of Earth before an Ozone layer appered?
And also, does the black fungus do better with Oxygen or with reduced Oxygen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then the question, why did the black fungus power system does not compete with the green photosynthesis that we largely have now?
I do have a speculative answer for that: "One System Rules Them All", "Outcompetes them All.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some have speculated that the Earth originally had purple pigment Photosynthesis, but Green outcompeted that.
I am wondering about "Black" pigment at some stage on the land. In the Oceans much of the hard UV would be blocked.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|
Could we create a terraform tool from Black Fungus to work with Mars?
It probably would not be a danger to Earth, as Green will probably outcompete it.
Does Black Fungus release Oxygen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have speculated that perhaps life could run on wind. That is it might generate electricity from embedded crystals and live on that.
This might be true for worlds that may not have suitable sunlight for light driven organisms purple, black, or green.
Perhaps the dark side of a tidal locked world, or a planet with massive cloud cover.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Possibly for Mars might there be life in the permafrost that might run on electric currents from dust storms?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Images
Videos
Lightning has been confirmed on Mars, primarily occurring as small electrical discharges in dust storms and dust devils.
Evidence of Martian Lightning
NASA’s MAVEN spacecraft detected a whistler wave, a low-frequency electromagnetic signal typically caused by lightning, in Mars’ ionosphere. This event was recorded over a localized crustal magnetic field at an altitude of 349 kilometers on the night side of the planet, lasting 0.4 seconds and spanning up to 110 Hz, representing the first direct evidence of lightning-like activity on Mars (NASA, 2026). MAVEN’s detection was extremely rare, with only one event found among over 108,000 measurements, highlighting the elusive nature of Martian lightning.
Phys.org
+2
Mechanism of Lightning Formation
Unlike Earth, Mars lacks a global magnetic field and has a thin, dry carbon dioxide atmosphere. Lightning on Mars does not form in rain clouds but is generated by triboelectric charging during dust storms and dust devils. As dust grains collide and rub together, they accumulate electrical charge, which can discharge as small sparks or “mini-lightning” (Nature, 2025; EarthSky, 2025). Laboratory experiments and simulations confirm that these conditions can produce electrical discharges similar to those observed in terrestrial volcanic eruptions or dust devils.
CBS News
+1
Observations from the Surface
The Perseverance rover recorded 55 instances of electrical discharges over two Martian years, with seven events capturing full acoustic signatures, including tiny sonic booms akin to miniature thunderclaps. These discharges were typically very small, ranging from 0.1 to 150 nanojoules, with one larger event at 40 millijoules, far weaker than typical Earth lightning (ScienceAlert, 2025; CBS News, 2025). The events occurred mostly during the strongest winds at the leading edges of dust storms or within dust devils, confirming that both dust and wind are necessary for lightning formation.
ScienceAlert
+1
Implications
Martian lightning is much weaker and more localized than Earth’s, posing minimal risk to future human explorers but potentially affecting sensitive equipment. The discovery also provides insights into atmospheric chemistry, as electrical discharges can drive reactions that form oxidizing compounds like perchlorates, which are common on Mars (Nature, 2025). Understanding these discharges helps scientists model Mars’ atmosphere and plan future missions, including ESA’s proposed M-MATISSE mission.
Nature
Summary
Lightning on Mars exists but is rare, weak, and mostly near the surface.
It occurs primarily in dust storms and dust devils through triboelectric charging.
MAVEN detected a whistler wave from orbit, while Perseverance recorded miniature lightning and sonic signatures on the surface.
These findings enhance our understanding of Martian atmospheric dynamics and have implications for future exploration and planetary chemistry.
This discovery confirms that Mars, despite its thin atmosphere and lack of a global magnetic field, can generate electrical discharges similar to lightning, albeit on a much smaller scale than on Earth.
I have considered that perhaps "Carbon Tracks" may exist in permafrost soil where electric discharges may be attracted repeatedly.
Such Carbon Tracks can occur on circuit boards, so I speculate that it could happen in permafrost where repeated electrical discharges may occur.
The electrical discharges might melt water either fresh or brine and may reset chemistry to provide life sustaining chemicals to life.
Here again we do have microbes at least that can live on electricity itself, and maybe such chemistry as I have mentioned.
I speculate that a Mars simulation with simulated permafrost, might even allow Earth organisms of some sort to live in the presumed "Carbon Tracks" that might be generated by simulations of Mars Dust Storms.
Ending Pending
Quote:
Electric bacteria
Life that lives on electricity
Electric bacteria are a unique example of life forms that thrive on electricity. These bacteria, such as Shewanella and Geobacter, can survive on pure energy, consuming electrons from rocks and metals. They are not dependent on sugars or other nutrients, making them a fascinating subject of study in the field of microbiology. The discovery of electric bacteria shows that some basic forms of life can handle energy in its purest form, which is a significant advancement in our understanding of life's energy requirements.
New Scientist
+1
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … re-energy/
Quote:
Life
Meet the electric life forms that live on pure energy
Unlike any other life on Earth, these extraordinary bacteria use energy in its purest form – they eat and breathe electrons – and they are everywhereBy Catherine Brahic
16 July 2014
So, it may be interesting to see of there are any of these that may live in icy permafrost, perhaps polar or alpine.
There are microbes that "Eat Air"
Quote:
Antarctic microbes have been discovered that can eat air, specifically using atmospheric gases like hydrogen, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide. These bacteria, known for their ability to perform atmospheric chemosynthesis, thrive in low-nutrient environments, such as polar deserts, where they convert atmospheric gases into organic compounds for growth. This process allows them to survive in extreme conditions where traditional food sources are scarce, potentially playing a significant role in the ecosystem by contributing to carbon cycling.
https://refractor.io/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/
Quote:
Biology
Bacteria that "eat" only air found in cold deserts around the world
By Michael Irving
August 19, 2020 05:53 pm
https://www.sciencealert.com/strange-ba … e-realised
Quote:
Strange Bacteria That Survive Only on Air May Be More Prevalent Than We Realised
Nature
20 August 2020
ByTessa Koumoundouros
I speculate that the underside of thin rocks on Mars might have a favorable condition on their undersides, where the sun may warm the underside of a thin stone and releases trapped moisture for microbes to use. Then at night the rock grows cold and then in early morning moisture may condense on the underside of the rock.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-04-22 09:14:02)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#7 2026-04-24 08:32:37
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,437
Re: Life Finds a Way
I would like to speculate on Early Mars, perhaps as an example of how planets around red dwarfs might support life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
Quote:
Radiotrophic fungus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiosynt … etabolism)
Quote:
Radiosynthesis (metabolism)
Dark
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Radiosynthesis is the theorized capture and metabolism, by living organisms, of energy from ionizing radiation, analogously to photosynthesis. Metabolism of ionizing radiation was theorized as early as 1956 by the Russian microbiologist S. I. Kuznetsov.[1]Beginning in the 1990s, researchers at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant uncovered some 200 species of apparently radiotrophic fungi containing the pigment melanin on the walls of the reactor room and in the surrounding soil.[2][3][4] Such "melanized" fungi have also been discovered in nutrient-poor, high-altitude areas which are exposed to high levels of ultraviolet radiation.[5]
Following the Ukrainian results, an American team at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University in New York began experimenting with radiation exposure of melanin and melanized fungi. They found that ionizing radiation increased the ability of melanin to support an important metabolic reaction, and that Cryptococcus neoformans fungi grew three times faster than normal.[6][5] Microbiologist Ekaterina Dadachova suggested such fungi could serve as a food supply and source of radiation protection for interplanetary astronauts, who would be exposed to cosmic rays.[5][4]
In 2014, the American research group was awarded a patent for a method of enhancing the growth of microorganisms through increasing melanin content. The inventors of this process claimed their fungi were employing radiosynthesis, and hypothesized that radiosynthesis may have played a role in early life on Earth, by allowing melanized fungi to act as autotrophs.[7]
From October 2018 through March 2019, NASA conducted an experiment aboard the International Space Station to study radiotrophic fungi as a potential radiation barrier to the harmful radiation in space. Radiotrophic fungi have many possible applications on Earth as well, potentially including a disposal method for nuclear waste or use as high-altitude biofuel or a nutrition source.[8]
How much sunlight for Mars now?
Quote:
Mars receives about 43–44% of the sunlight that Earth does, due to its greater distance from the Sun and thin, dusty atmosphere.
Solar Irradiance
The average solar irradiance on Mars is approximately 590 W/m², compared to about 1,367 W/m² at the top of Earth's atmosphere and roughly 1,000 W/m² at Earth's surface under clear conditions. This means Mars gets less than half the sunlight Earth receives, primarily because it orbits at an average distance of 1.5 astronomical units (AU) from the Sun, compared to Earth’s 1 AU. The inverse square law explains this reduction: sunlight intensity decreases with the square of the distance from the Sun.
And I believe that the sun started out about 70% as bright as it is now.
Somehow, Mars had an ocean it seems about 3.5 billion years ago.
The story we get about worlds around red dwarf stars, is magnetic storms will strip away the atmosphere, and the radiation will kill the life.
However, in our solar system if Mars was the same as Earth but in the orbit, it is, with its magnetic field it might have avoided atmospheric stripping at least until it became tidal locked.
And the radiation would actually be food for a fungus, if it existed on such an Earth.
And then there is a chance that a world with 43-44% of Earth's light, might be more massive, and have twice the gravity.
Although the fungus may not be black perhaps a black version could exist that would optimize the albedo of such a planet to pull in heat. Perhaps if such a fungus existed for Mars, a black pigment may have helped Mars to be warm.
It is all maybes, but on the other side, I think that science sometimes is not open enough to possibilities.
Political science seems to be used to convince common people that they "Can't", and therefore should not try.
In my opinion that then makes common people so convinced to be easier victims to predatory rulers.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-04-24 08:53:45)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
Pages: 1