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#251 Yesterday 10:54:16
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
I have experimented with the idea of a "Semi-Cycler" before. Got a lot of flak for it. So, I will rename it a "Planet Pass Spaceship".
It seems that focus in space will involve:
1) Earth/Moon
2) Deimos/Phobos/Mars
The difference between #1 and #2 is #1 will have the best space infrastructure early on, and #2 will have the bast access to raw materials.
It is easier to lift materials from Mars itself than from Earth, if you had equivalent infrastructure. Also, it is easier to extract materials from Deimos and Phobos than to extract materials from the Earth's Moon.
So, if you would have a "Large Spaceship" my feeling is that you can have a ship that stope in Mars orbits and launches from it. And when it would launch, it might do a fast pass of Earth obtaining gravity power from the encounter then go back to Mars. The reason I think that passing Earth makes sense is that since the Earth/Moon will have the better infrastructure, they could maintain, better fast shuttle services that could bring people back and fourth from the Earth/Moon<>"Panet Pass Spaceship". So, half of this is like a Cycling Spaceship at (Earth/Moon) and half like a normal spaceship (At Deimos/Phobos/Mars).
This device could do another gravity trick at Mars which is a Ballistic Capture. In order for people to be protected from space hazards, a "Panet Pass Spaceship" will be heavy with life support extravagance.
Quote:
How It Works
Trajectory Design: The spacecraft is launched on a trajectory that intersects the orbital path of the target body. As it approaches, the spacecraft's velocity is carefully managed so that it can be captured by the target's gravity.
Gravitational Forces: Once the spacecraft reaches the vicinity of the target, it relies on the natural gravitational forces of the planet or moon to slow down and enter orbit. This process often requires only minor adjustments using low-power thrusters for fine-tuning the orbit.
22 Sources
Advantages of Ballistic Capture
Fuel Efficiency: Unlike traditional methods, such as Hohmann transfers, which require significant fuel burns to slow down and enter orbit, ballistic capture can achieve similar results with minimal fuel usage.
2
Cost-Effectiveness: By reducing the amount of fuel needed, missions utilizing ballistic capture can lower overall costs and complexity, making it an attractive option for space agencies.
23 Sources
Historical Context and Applications
First Use: The first successful application of ballistic capture was by the Japanese spacecraft Hiten in 1991, which used this method to reach the Moon.
2
Subsequent Missions: NASA's GRAIL mission in 2011 and ESA's SMART-1 mission in 2004 also employed ballistic capture techniques, demonstrating its effectiveness for lunar missions.
22 Sources
Conclusion
Ballistic capture represents a significant advancement in spacecraft trajectory design, allowing for efficient and cost-effective missions to various celestial bodies. Its reliance on gravitational forces rather than fuel makes it a compelling choice for future space exploration endeavors.Wikipedia
Ballistic capture - Wikipedia
Ballistic capture is a low energy method for a spacecraft to achieve an orbit around a distant planet or moon with
So, this ship is launched from a Mars orbit after being resupplied and refurbished in Mars orbit, using materials from the 3 worlds, Deimos/Phobos/Mars.
Launching methods could be various. Raptors-Metha Lox, Nuclear-Hydrogen, Other. Probably as a booster system that does not leave Mars orbit.
On board could be various types of propulsions. Perhaps Nuclear-Electric, or chemical or maybe Oxygen Mass Driver.
Two gravity maneuvers could be used. The Earth-Pass could modify the orbit to return to Mars.
And at Mars you would use Ballistic Capture to return into Mars orbit. To do that you also have to at least have some electric thrust to stay in orbit of Mars.
Mars could supply water or Hydrogen for Nuclear thermal propulsions. Deimos and Phobos can supply stony materials which contain solid substances and Oxygen. The two moons may supply Carbon. If not then that can be gotten from Mars itself.
There may be water ice in one or both of the two moons. There is massive amounts of water ice on Mars Itself.
This large-scale spaceship will not need a heat shield method to go into Mars orbit and will be able to reuse some of the original energy of launch from Mars orbit to swing past the Earth/Moon and return to Mras orbit. Also, can harvest gravity at both major planets.
Also the swing past Earth/Moon could use an Oberth Maneuver is desired: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect
The Earth/Moon system may have good infrastructure to provide rescue for fast shuttles that do not make it properly to the "Panet Pass Spaceship".
It might be possible that a Venus or Mercury pass could be used instead of or in conjunction with an Earth/Moon pass.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (Today 16:03:01)
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#252 Yesterday 12:08:30
- Void
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
Continuing with the "Panet Pass Spaceship" from the last post:
The concept of a Nuclear Thermal Booster to boost the "Planet Pass Spaceship" to pass by Earth.
Hydrogen Propellant is the best, but hard to source and hard to store. Water as a propellant with Nuclear is said to be about as good as combustion rockets.
So for Mars lifting water to Orbit from Mars might work well for the Nuclear Thermal Booster method.
Now want if we could do both?
What if you had a small tank of Liquid Hydrogen and a large tank of Water? You could feed the Hydrogen into the water as a gas, perhaps dissolved into high pressure water, and possibly as Aerated bubbles.
A Booster could be tanks up with large amounts of water when in orbit of Mars. Then a last load could be a small tank of Liquid Hydrogen.
"Hydrated Water" as in input to Nuclear Thermal propulsion might be rather better than just water. The Hydrogen would push the expansion very nicely, but the water has much more mass than Hydrogen does.
Such Nuclear Boosters could be pushed to Mars from Earth/Moon, just one time loaded with water and Hydrogen, perhaps from Earth.
Ending Pending
My view is that the Nuclear Thermal Booster will remain in orbit of Mars after boosting the "Panet Pass Spaceship" on its pass by Earth. Then to be reused. There could be many "Planet Pass Spaceship".
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Last edited by Void (Today 16:05:03)
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#253 Yesterday 15:27:07
- Void
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
In posts #251 and #252 "Planet Pass Spaceship" is suggested where it might be boosted out of Mars orbit using a Nuclear Thermal Booster which I hope could use Hydrated Water as a propellant. That is water that has Hydrogen dissolved into it or small Hydrogen bubbles put into it to form a temporary slurry of water with Hydrogen bubbles.
I think that might work.
While there is hope that Deimos or Phobos may have water ice in them many people do not think it does. Even if it does that might be hard to access.
I suggested that water could be brought up from Mars. But in reality, you could bring Hydrogen up and combine it quickly with Oxygen from Oxides in the regolith of Deimos and Phobos.
So, actually not only is the problem of brining water up from Mars easier by math than to bring it up from Earth, but for Deimos/Phobos/Mars, the bulk of mass for water is already in orbit of Mars in Deimos and Phobos.
Using water in a Nuclear Thermal Booster, is convenience as it can be stored in depots with little danger of boil-off. A Nuclear Thermal Booster then filled with water then just bring a small tank of Hydrogen up from Mars and load that on and the Nuclear Thermal Booster would be primed.
I expect that the Nuclear Thermal Booster pushing the "Planet Pass Spaceship" to an escape speed to depart Mars orbit would disconnect and then thrust to be retained in Mars orbit.
Then it might be brought back to a refilling orbit by some means, most practical, and rinse and repeat.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Today 16:06:23)
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#254 Yesterday 21:54:05
- Void
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
I have posted #251, #252, #253 today. Now in this post I return to somethings I have worked on before.
Mars orbits should have many propulsive methods available.
Alice for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
You could probably get Oxygen from Deimos and Phobos, Hydrogen from Mars and Aluminum again from Deimos and Phobos.
CO/O2 rocket engines are a possibility, Carbon and Oxygen may be available from Deimos and Phobos and is available from Mars.
Mass Drivers that shoot out Ice/Iron Bullets might be a way. Water Ice or Dry ice. Iron would be fine dust. Everything for this could come from Deimos and Phobos, and maybe Hydrogen, but Hydrogen could come from Mars.
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Last edited by Void (Yesterday 21:58:54)
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#255 Today 10:19:35
- Void
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
So, if a "Planet Pass Spaceship" were used, it would probably have synthetic gravity available in some of it's parts. And means to produce food, air, and to recycle water. The device might be in parts that are not connected to each other during most of the flight. Perhaps connected when departing Mars orbit and when doing a pass of the Earth.
I think that if the parts could not be manufactured in the Deimos/Phobos/Mars system, then they could be created in the Earth/Moon system and filled with water. Then a Nuclear Fission Tug with a relatively small tank of Hydrogen could consume the water in the containers in order to push the devices to a Ballistic Capture into the Mars orbits. The Nuclear Fission Tug could then bring the assembly down in orbit to be at a orbit that suits setting the parts up as a "Panet Pass Spaceship" Resources from Deimos/Phobos/Mars might be used as well.
A "Panet Pass Spaceship" could be temporarily used as a Cycling Spaceship if desired, but of course then restocking it with resources becomes much more difficult.
IF a "Planet Pass Spaceship" could be refitted at Mars, it might do a swing-by of Earth and then (I hope), be able to do a Ballistic Capture to Ceres or even Jupiter.
It would be easier to set Ceres up as a refitting location as its raw materials are plentiful and the gravity low, in some ways easier than Deimos/Phobos/Mars.
But Deimos/Phobos/Mars almost certainly will come first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Energy and water joined with machinery is the path to wealth in the case of Deimos/Phobos/Mars.
There are a lot of wild cards in the area of Energy for Mars, but for Water I think we understand where the major deposits are.
-Fusion is possible for Mars but is not yet a real thing for needed energy. Even so it might be that Fusion in microgravity may work better than on the surface of Mars.
-Nuclear Fission is possible, but for a time the fuels likely have to come from Earth.
-Solar, more in the orbits of Deimos and less elsewhere, seems like a good path as well.
Power in those orbits could be beamed down to locations of important ice masses.
Machines would then use the water and power to produce wealth for the locals, I presume.
This is likely compatible with the technologies that seem to be proposed for the Earth/Moon in the coming times, it looks like.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Today 16:08:08)
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#256 Today 15:59:56
- Void
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Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.
I have opened a new topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p237780
"Index» Life support systems» Carbon is the New Metal"
OK, so I wonder if we could "Daisy-Chain" "Planet Pass Spaceship".
The feed points for one where it launches from being in Mars orbit and then passing Earth to return to Mars Orbit. (Using Ballistic Capture).
The feed points for another one where it launches from being in Ceres orbit and then passing Mars to return to Ceres Orbit. (Using Ballistic Capture).
Each ship as it passed its pass-by planet could release materials to be aero-braked to that world or it's orbits.
Mars/Phobos/Deimos has more Carbon nearer to microgravity than does Earth/Moon.
Ceres/Asteroid Belt has access to more Carbon than Mars/Phobos/Demos.
If you could achieve a Ballistic Capture to Ceres then you have a good position to access much of the Asteroid Belt which will have a lot of Carbon in it.
Of course, Carbon Transport might be done by different means such as Electric Rocket, or maybe a thin film of Carbon could sail around the solar system on Photons.
So then perhaps the value of everything might end up valued against Carbon, if it is to be as useful as it appears it might become.
Ending Pending
Oh Dear! How will we keep the Earth from freezing up if everyone takes Carbon out of the Air? With a Helium/Munchkin voice: "Help me, Help me Gretta!".
How Dare Me!
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Today 16:25:58)
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