Principles for successful settlement

RobertDyck · 2025-12-26 20:39:30

I posted about history of Newfoundland. Robert Zubrin liked to use the Louis and Clarke expedition as an example. He spoke about China exploring the world, then an emperor of China destroying the ships and shrinking to just China. But I want to use Newfoundland as a strong lesson.

Short version: after Christopher Columbus, Britain sent John Cabot to discover what he could find. In 1496 he discovered Newfoundland, mapped Saint John's bay, and the Grand Banks. Primary protein for people in Britain at that time was fish, so tell fishermen of the greatest fishery in the history of humans? And a bay that can act as a natural harbour? Fishermen set sail as soon as he reported his findings. That bay became the city of St. John's, capital of what is now the Canadian province of Newfoundland. But more importantly, fishermen established a fishing camp there in late summer 1496, and built the first permanent house for a caretaker in 1497. This was not government sponsored, it was just fishermen. The government sponsored colonizes of Roanoke and Jamestown failed miserably. Several government colonize failed, settlers died, until a new colony was established at the site of the failed colony of Jametown. Jamestown was re-established and succeeded starting 1610. Notice the time: 114 years after the fishing settlement of St. John's Newfoundland. But St. John's never failed.

Failure and success had a very simple reason. Failed government colonies relied on food shipments from Europe. Due to politics, those food shipments were often delayed by months or years. People can't wait months or years to receive food. If they run out of food, they starve to death. But in Newfoundland, they never relied on government for jack shit! They accepted maps from John Cabot, said thank-you and bu-buy. When fishermen were hungry, they ate some of the fish they caught. In the 1490s, there was no refrigeration, no freezers, no canning; the only preservation technology was to fillet the fish, salt and dry. When fishermen were hungry, you can bet they fried the fish fresh. They also caught crabs and lobster, any fresh seafood. They harvested trees to build their fishing camps, and later their town.

To put this in terms of Mars, a successful settlement must start producing food with the fist expedition. In 1496, fishermen returned to England at the end of each fishing season. A house was built in 1497 for a single caretaker to overwinter, to care for the camp. It was some years before people lived year-round. For Mars, first expeditions must build the first permanent buildings including a pressurized greenhouse to grow food. But the first few expeditions must return to Earth. Only after the base has been proven safe, with reliable food production, can permanent settlement be considered. Food production with absolutely no resupply from Earth must be established before we permanently settle Mars.

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-26 21:12:00

For RobertDyck .... thank you for starting what appears to be an important new topic.

You've written about this topic before, so I am glad to see a topic dedicated to it.

Please go take a look at the work of Steve Stewart to see if his concepts might provide a workable solution.

Steve has stopped contributing, but his work remains available for study.

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.

Index:

(th)

SpaceNut · Yesterday 18:43:17

Not trying to be negative

Mars short list
1. no insitu food which means all must be brought and minimal ability to grow within the ship you come in which means outfitting the cargo ship with life support to stay plus modification for radiation protection.
2. no breathable atmosphere, must be brought or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
3. has minimal water and nothing free to draw from that is fresh or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
4. minimal solar energy and lots of radiation with ships not designed for long term stay
5. no ship going back or to mars currently just future planning but you need to solve other issues first
6. Lacks materials other than insitu processed to make shelters from if you have extra power and equipment
7. mars has natural geological and mineral assets if you have extra power and equipment to make use of insitu sources
8. financing presently via government and not private

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ....
It is difficult to take a positive attitude when there are so many problems ahead of humans headed to Mars.
You've shown once again that the negative and difficulty are all that come to your mind when you think about Mars.
RobertDyck opened a topic that is intended to be full of hope and optimism, and which is designed to show exactly how to do the many tasks needed to grow food on Mars. Your first contribution is a list of problems to be overcome.
I'll quote the list and try to help you to understand how it comes across:
SpaceNut wrote:
Not trying to be negative
Mars short list
1. no insitu food which means all must be brought and minimal ability to grow within the ship you come in
2. no breathable atmosphere, must be brought or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
3. has minimal water and nothing free to draw from that is fresh or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
4. minimal solar energy and lots of radiation with ships not designed for long term stay
5. no ship going back or to mars currently just future planning but you need to solve other issues first
6. Lacks materials other than insitu processed to make shelters from if you have extra power and equipment
7. mars has natural geological and mineral assets if you have extra power and equipment to make use of insitu sources
8. financing presently via government and not private
Item #1: You may not have read RobertDyck's post. He explicitly said that food must be grown before humans arrive to stay.
How did you miss that?
Here is what RobertDyck said in the opening post:
To put this in terms of Mars, a successful settlement must start producing food with the fist expedition.
Here's the rest of that key paragraph, because it contains the essence of the mission of this topic:
In 1496, fishermen returned to England at the end of each fishing season. A house was built in 1497 for a single caretaker to overwinter, to care for the camp. It was some years before people lived year-round. For Mars, first expeditions must build the first permanent buildings including a pressurized greenhouse to grow food. But the first few expeditions must return to Earth. Only after the base has been proven safe, with reliable food production, can permanent settlement be considered. Food production with absolutely no resupply from Earth must be established before we permanently settle Mars.
The topic is not the place to worry about all the challenges facing those who will build the first food production facility. We have plenty of other topics where you and others can worry about those issues. The topic RobertDyck created is where we NewMars members will build up a repository of knowledge about how to do whatever is needed. Your contribution is a list of challenges, but we already know about all the challenges. We don't need another list. We've had 20+ years (from 2001 I was reminded today) to think of all the challenges.
The opportunity for NewMars members is to think of all the answers that are needed to achieve RobertDyck's vision.
You've had since July of 2004 to think of every possible problem that humans might face in settling Mars.
It is past time to start working on solutions.
You are free to provide answers for any or all of the problems you've cited.
It is up to RobertDyck to decide, but ** I ** would vote for you being required to find a solution for each and every problem you've listed.
It's time (past time) to get moving on building up the knowledge, skill and resources to achieve the many subgoals of the Mars project.
Let's get moving!
We don't need more hand wringing. This forum has 24 years for hand wringing! We are about to enter 2026.
Let 2026 be the year of NewMars finding solutions to all those stacked up problems.
(th)

They all survive on the fish for year 1.
read the greenhouse was year 2 not the first.

Left only 1 crew men to be a caretaker of the habitat that was built.

So when did the Shift to Resident Fishery happen?

Mars can anyone stay without suffering the effects of reduced gravity?

HISTORY OF GREAT FISHERY OF NEWFOUNDLAND

Bristol and Newfoundland 1490-1570 (eprint)

History of Fisheries in the Northwest Atlantic:The 500-Year Perspective

RobertDyck · Today 06:22:50

Newfoundland: fishermen accepted maps from the government-funded explorer. Maps included details of where Newfoundland is, where the Grand Banks are, how much fish are in the Grand Banks, and St. John's Bay that acts as a natural harbour where they can park their ships. Fishermen took that map, said thank-you, and left. No government funding. No government support. Just the map.

Technology for navigation was developed for the navy. They used the stars to determine where they are, and during the day they could use the sun to calculate latitude. Once a clock was invented, they could also use position of the sun to calculate longitude. Ship design with a keel was developed for navy ships, to allow navy combat vessels to survive deep ocean in heavy seas. That means during a storm. Ships with a shallow hull could navigate shallow rivers, but once in deep ocean and a storm, the large waves could capsize the ship. Once the ship is upside-down, it will take on water and sink. Everyone dies. You want your ship to remain upright. A deep keel was developed for navy ships to allow them to travel in deep ocean during a storm. Fishing vessels used technology developed for navy ships. This technology allowed fishing ships to travel through deep ocean without capsizing, and without getting lost.

Equivalent today is rocket technology. Developed for ICBMs, but later used to launch military spy satellites. That technology is used by commercial companies to allow humans to get to the Moon (Apollo), and will allow humans to get to Mars.

However, a successful settlement on Mars will NOT be government funded. It will be private individuals or commercial companies. No government funding, because government is flaky. Government funding is not reliable. Never has been, never will be. Government funded colonies in the "new world" in the 1500s all died. Not just Roanoke and Jamestown, but many others. They died because they relied upon food from government-funded ships from Europe. Newfoundland succeeded because they did not rely on government at all.

RobertDyck · Today 06:37:16

Mars has an atmosphere. Greenhouses can be built with Mars soil for plants, and Mars atmosphere. It has to be processed. Carbon monoxide must be removed, or reacted with oxygen to produce CO2. CO2 itself must be reduced, but not eliminated. Greenhouses must have oxygen similar to Earth.

Mars soil must be treated. Perchlorates must be broken down. But scientists have already developed an enzyme to break down perchlorate. If there is perchlorate in soil, it will be take up by plants and be present in food. Perchlorate is toxic. But it breaks down into salt and oxygen. So breaking down takes effort and time, but can be done.

Mars soil has practically no nitrogen. Instruments on Spirit and Opportunity rovers found none. Instruments on Curiosity and Perseverance were more sensitive; they found some, but very little and only in certain locations. Nitrogen will have to be added to soil in greenhouses. That's Ok; there's nitrogen in Mars atmosphere. We know how to process Mars atmosphere to concentrate nitrogen. And we know how to react atmospheric nitrogen with hydrogen to make ammonia. We can react ammonia with more nitrogen to make ammonium-nitrate fertilizer. That's white granules, used as fertilizer for many decades.

Water: at mid-latitudes there are glaciers in the sides of canyons. These have been mapped by Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. There's also a large frozen lake at low altitude just 4° north of the equator. It's the "frozen pack-ice" of v, a formation in a large area known as Elysium Planitia. The European Space Agency has studied it: surface area larger than the Great Lakes, or roughly equal to the North Sea. Volume greater than all the Great Lakes combined, or roughly equal to the North Sea. Not as deep as Lake Superior, but same depth as Lake Erie. Some people at NASA claimed it's lava, not ice. Professional geologists with PhD's at the European Space Agency said this is absolutely NOT lava; it is ice. Here's an image showing a couple "sploosh" craters.

SpaceNut · Today 12:13:30

English Voyages before Cabot

The caretaker was left behind to claim the island, land with squatters rights since they did not have a government to grant them the rights.
Not sure of the greenhouse abilities as that would have required heating with the wood of the island during winter cold.

It appears that The “greenhouse” term analogically refers to the sheltered sites where cod was salted and sun-dried, enabling control over the curing environment—a precursor to more permanent fish-processing facilities. Initially, the reason was for most Europeans left over the winter, leaving sites and equipment vulnerable to theft and environmental damage. To which those that stayed for these site were Employing caretakers, deserters, and planters, some crews began overwintering to protect gear, gradually establishing semi-permanent presence.

For mars a crop growing greenhouse we all know that we need it to function with minimal resource used to make it happen.

SpaceNut · Today 16:15:27

In the 1490s, European fishermen traveling to the abundant Grand Banks off Newfoundland primarily ate preserved, non-perishable foods carried from Europe, supplemented by the vast amounts of cod they caught. The primary components of their diet included hard tack (ship's biscuits), salted meat (beef and pork), and dried or salted fish.
Primary Provisions
Hard Tack/Ship's Biscuits: This was a staple on all long sea voyages, a durable biscuit made of grain and oats that lasted a long time if kept dry.
Salted Meat: Beef and pork were preserved in barrels of brine and consumed regularly. The meat had to be soaked in water before cooking to reduce the salt content.
Salted Fish: While fishermen rarely ate fish from the open ocean due to spoilage concerns and the logistics of cleaning them on the ship, they carried dried or salted fish, primarily cod, as part of their provisions. Once at the Grand Banks, the ease of catching fresh cod meant it was a plentiful, fresh food source while near Newfoundland.
Dried Legumes and Oatmeal: Peas, chickpeas, and beans (dried) were common additions, often made into a stew with the salted meats or fish. Oatmeal was also served.
Cheese and Butter: Hard cheese and butter were carried as they could last a long time.
Alcohol: Fresh water spoiled quickly in barrels, so beer and wine were common beverages as the alcohol helped preserve them. Sailors might be allotted a gallon of beer a day.
Life in Newfoundland
Upon arrival in Newfoundland, the Europeans developed a "dry" fishing method where they built temporary stages on shore to dry and salt the cod, turning it into a stable, long-lasting protein source for transport back to Europe. This land-based activity allowed for some supplementation of the ship's diet with fresh fish, small livestock (poultry), and foraged vegetables when possible, though the main goal was processing cod for expor

In the 1490s and early 1500s, Newfoundland fishermen, primarily English, French, Basque, and Portuguese, focused on catching and exporting cod, not growing crops; they used hooks, lines, and local bait (birds, herring, squid) to salt cod onboard ships for the European market, using existing trade routes for transport, making fish their main economic product, not agriculture.
What They Did:
Caught Cod: The Grand Banks offered incredibly rich cod stocks, making it the primary target.
Used Basic Gear: They fished daily from small boats using hook and line.
Used Local Bait: They used sea birds, herring, capelin, and squid for bait.
Salted at Sea: They processed their catch by salting it on the ships.
Exported to Europe: The salted cod was transported back to Europe for drying and sale, becoming a major export commodity.
What They Didn't Grow (or Focus On):
No Agricultural Focus: The emphasis was entirely on the sea and the lucrative cod trade, not on cultivating crops in Newfoundland.
Subsistence vs. Export: While First Nations people fished for subsistence, the European arrival transformed it into a major export industry.
Essentially, for these 1490s fishermen, Newfoundland was a massive fishing ground and processing station, not a place for farming

So lots of dry goods...but no growing of food when it could be done and preserved in the same manner as what is shipped with them on the out going journey.

Maps for getting started on mars is coming from the rovers, and orbiter satellites from many agencies that are operated by the governments..

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#1 2025-12-26 20:39:30

Principles for successful settlement

#2 2025-12-26 21:12:00

Re: Principles for successful settlement

#3 Yesterday 18:43:17

Re: Principles for successful settlement

To put this in terms of Mars, a successful settlement must start producing food with the fist expedition.

#4 Today 06:22:50

Re: Principles for successful settlement

#5 Today 06:37:16

Re: Principles for successful settlement

#6 Today 12:13:30

Re: Principles for successful settlement

#7 Today 16:15:27

Re: Principles for successful settlement

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