Propellant Sourced from Moon

Void · 2024-12-11 20:19:59

While I mentioned Alice, my purpose was to demonstrate that Aluminum can be a fuel.

Your logic that it might be better to just work with the water is reasonable.

But my resort to Aluminum and Oxygen, is done for the reason to not consume Moon water, when Aluminum and Oxygen may do well enough.

And I suppose I also will hope that there are even better options, although I don't know what they are yet.

But "Good Enough" may be "Good Enough", (Aluminum and Oxygen).

The fixation of persons with Hydro lox on the Moon from Moon water, is evidence of dogma. As soon as a concept is adopted, then it becomes difficult to get persons to update.

For a long time after Apollo, we were told "Bone Dry Moon". I believe that that was because Vampires have always wanted to suck the money out of the dreams of others. And for various reasons they would prefer to feed on the people rather than to raise a thought child to maturation.

For a long time before the SpaceX era, the only hope was that there might be water from asteroids, and then eventually it was slowly emerging that there may be water in the polar areas of the Moon. The Apollo Era having become Dogma by that time, the power brokers could only imagine doing Apollo again. So, they would want to send some people in balloon suits to prance on the Moon, and perhaps, just perhaps be able to tap into the Moon water to make rocket propellants.

But reality is updating, and it is very likely that there will be lots of robotic labor on the Moon. Now on the occasion that justifies it maybe some Moon water and CO2 can be used for rocket fuel. But since we may be able to develop a "Good Enough" method to launch payloads, without consuming the precious Hydrogen and Carbon, then we may conserve it to make things like plastics and food and so on.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-11 20:29:24)

Calliban · 2025-12-20 16:45:28

Why I'm obssessed with the moon.
https://youtu.be/8le1kudhVNQ

Quite inspiring. The moon is the key to building a spacefaring society.

Void · Yesterday 11:44:14

I like the author(s) of that.

I want to say that I am encouraged that SpaceX is thinking of a mass driver that could launch Satellites, and want them to do what they can in that direction.

But one size may not fit all.

I want to offer the idea of the HLS Power Belt. If HLS is out superhero of a cartoon, if we can strap auxiliary thrusters that use Lunar resources on it, then we may make a Lunar Starship as a viable method t lift mass from the Moon.

We have three options that I can think of Hydro-Lox, Alice, and Aluminum/LOX paste.

While SpaceX is avoiding legs for Starship to get to the Moon, I propose that legs made of Carbon and Plastics that are one time use might be engaged as well.

I see the idea of using electric Ion propulsion to bring them to Lunar Orbit as being sensible.

Have a look at Andromeda's engine: https://www.stokespace.com/introducing-andromeda/
Image Quote:

This has a Hydro-Lox engine which could perhaps become a "Thruster Belt" that you could wrap around a HLS.

The point is that this could be strapped around an HLS and could be propelled by H2 and LOX from the Moon, if such does exist.

Once you strap a power belt on the HLS, you leave it on, most likely. So, this then allows HLS to become partially Hydro-Lox, without massive alterations.

This assembly then repeatedly takes cargo up to Lunar Orbits and receives a new dominantly Carbon and Plastic set of landing gear.
Each time it leaves the landing gear on the Lunar surface.

The Carbon and Plastics of the landing gear, plus perhaps some special metals included then support industrial intents on the Moon.

Then perhaps if you want to you can create an "Alice Thruster Belt": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
Quote:

Aluminum-Ice Rocket Propellant, or ALICE, is a rocket propellant that consists of a frozen mixture of nano-aluminum powder and water (i.e. aluminum and ice).[1]

When this thruster belt is to be refilled from the Lunar surface, it will burn itself out and most likely you do not want to detach it from the Lunar Starship. This is because the Lunar Starship is then used to land both itself and the attached "Alice Power Belt" back down to the Moon.

Finally we might be able some day to create a LOX/Aluminum paste engine. for a "Power Belt".
Some research has been done on it: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source

And: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19940017287

While some of their research suggests squeezing a past out of a nozzle, I would be more interested in setting up something like a "Solid Rocket" method. So, then the "Power Belt" would be a burn up to orbit but no ability to land itself. But the Starship could carry it back down.

Adding a power belt to a Starship would broaden its base. Adding a one-time set of landing legs could broaden it more.

Shipments of propellants from Earth to Lunar Orbits might also be included using an electric Ion propulsion method. However, I anticipate that if this would be done it would be Methane only, and the refilling of Oxygen could be done on the Moons surface.

I will make the case that a Mass Driver is a mass projector that involves machinery and energy.

But a Starship with the "Power Belt" kit and the "Landing Legs" kit is also a matter projector that involve machinery and energy.

Perhaps both options may have value.

It is not yet certain that a Mass Driver is practical, I might point out.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 12:10:17)

GW Johnson · Yesterday 16:31:19

If you have to process tons of regolith to get pounds of water, that is not an easily-recovered or inexpensive resource! Period! We already know about low-concentration resources being bad mining bets, from centuries of prospecting and mining right here on Earth. It's worse in space, where you have to have pressure suits and life support.

An "easily recovered ice resource" would yield a ton of dirty water from only a few to at most only several tons of regolith. That's a buried glacier, not small bits of frost on regolith particles! Maybe there's such a thing on the moon, and maybe not. Nobody yet knows.

There really are very likely buried glacier resources like that on Mars, although we have yet to verify that on the ground. And certainly on some of the icy moons of the outer planets. Plus all the Kuiper belt objects. But maybe not the moon.

Talking about thinly-spread concentrations as if they were cheaply- and easily-recovered items is marketing hype (spelled "marketeering lies"), not technical truth. Don't be taken in by it.

You first go to the moon and prospect to find out what is really there, where exactly it is located, and in what concentrations it exists. Only then can you plan your next steps. It's all about getting real ground truth.

GW

Void · Yesterday 18:05:01

Well, I am going to completely agree with you that ground truth is needed, but there is this:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ice … tion-water
Quote:

About 22,600,000 results

Volcanic eruptions on the Moon have been suggested to have created large ice deposits at the poles. These eruptions, which occurred billions of years ago, released water vapor that could have condensed into ice under the lunar surface. The study by Andrew Wilcoski and his colleagues at the University of Colorado Boulder suggests that volcanic eruptions could have released enough water vapor to deposit ice at the lunar poles, especially in the frigid conditions of the poles. The research indicates that volcanic activity could have contributed to the formation of ice deposits, which may have persisted for billions of years due to the cold environment of the Moon.
Wikipedia
+1

Some articles I have read suggest that the Moon may have erupted vast amounts of water and CO, and that perhaps 41% of the erupted water could be in thick layers of ice at and near the poles. But it might be under several meters or regolith at this point.

But also now we seem to have this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1SdiJk Quote:

Starlust
Earth's atmosphere hidden on the moon may prove to be life-sustaining for future astronauts
Story by Raj Naik • 1w •
3 min read

Quote:

Over billions of years, the magnetic field may have acted like a long-distance pipeline, guiding small amounts of Earth's atmosphere along its lines and depositing them into the lunar soil, known as regolith. Lunar soil samples brought back to Earth by the Apollo missions have shown the presence of certain volatile substances like carbon dioxide, argon, water, helium, and nitrogen.

But even absent abundant water, I also suggested propulsions using a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 18:15:02)

Void · Yesterday 19:23:52

I am all for a mass driver and it seems Elon Musk and Co. are considering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afybjgW9JEc
Quote:

Elon Musk Just Revealed Starship’s Lunar Secret Weapon—600,000 Tons to Orbit Every Year!

TECH MAP
123K subscribers

I will hope they can make it happen.

But I still think that side engines can be considered of the types I previously mentioned in post #53: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p236377

Perhaps this could be prior to and auxiliary to the use of a Mass Driver.

Ending Pending

Here, as it happens is an update for Stoke Space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

As I have said I have imaged that the engine nozzle setup could be made into a wrap around add-on for a Lunar Starship, allowing a Hydro-Lox assisted launch from the Moon. This would possibly be useful, if the Moon turns out to have a lot of water ice.

Some rockets do have parallel thrust methods. The Space Shuttle did, Falcon Heavy does.

This however would have multiple engine nizzles wrapped around the engine bay of the Lunar Starship, and of course it would need propellant tanks for them as well. However, the heat shield would not be included.

I have also suggested the use of Alice thrust as an alternative or perhaps a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 19:38:43)

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Re: Propellant Sourced from Moon

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