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This tool allows individually designed buildings to be uploaded and rendered into an AI generated cityscape. Very impressive.
https://www.d5render.com/
Using tools like this, we could design a Martian city right here on Earth and have all of the design elements worked out.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #351
The link you provided in Post #351 is for Windows. I think it deserves it's own topic, and that it has growth potential. I don't know anything about it yet, because i work primarily with Linux, but i do have and support Windows, so will try it on a Windows machine later.
i'll ask SpaceNut to think about where he wants to set up a topic for this.
If you have a preference for a category where this would fit, you are welcome to make the siting decision.
If we do pursue this, I hope you will have time to keep it going. We do not currently have a lot of active members, but SpaceNut and I have been slowly building momentum toward increased membership.
I am interested in productive members who are doing things and who are willing to support others.
(th)
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For Calliban re new Suspended Roof topic...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11235
Of all our members, it seems to me you may be best qualified to add substance to this new topic.
I am hoping your previous work on cast iron would extend to this structure.
It seems likely you would need stronger material for the cables, and that would require energy, but a city like this is going to happen only if there is sufficient energy available to splurge on metalurgy. Assuming you have enough energy, am i correct in thinking a city scape using suspended roofing with regolith cover for pressure balance and radiation protection would make sense?
The alternative is to dig underground, and it seems to me that unless huge natural cavities are found, it would ** always ** take more energy for excavation than would be required for the suspended roof concept.
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For Calliban re impressive sketches of suspended roof for Mars.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 18#p235418
Thank you very much for adding these sketches to the topic!
On Earth, I asked Google for the largest compression building, and the largest suspension structure.
The largest building is (if I recall correctly) in China, and it is a paltry 400 meters across (or so)
The largest suspension bridge is a couple of kilometers across the main section.
A city that would feel like an Earth City, and not just a foot ball stadium, must have a perimeter that is well out of sight.
The pictures you kindly provided of Amsterdam and other European cities, under clear blue skies (with the occasional rain) show what is possible with a suitable long stretch roof.
Thanks again for showing that basalt is a construction material that might be up to the job.
I liked your description of the longevity prospects for such a roof, once constructed.
(th)
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For Calliban re strong bricks on Mars...
Thank you for your post about bricks in Void's solar mirrors topic...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p235419
Out of curiosity ... how would those bricks compare to ones on Earth?
It sure looks (to me at least) as though brick has been a popular building element for a very long time.
Stone is a strong alternative, and you have written about the possibility of cutting stones to order on Mars.
It seems (again to me) as though a combination of strong wrought iron (as you have described in numerous posts) and the kind of strong brick you've described, would yield buildings that should last for hundreds of years on Mars, with no earthquakes or rain, or much of anything else to cause buildings to deteriorate.
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For Calliban re Suspension Roofed City on Mars....
Here is a model for what I have in mind:
Neom: What Is Saudi $500B Mega-City in Desert With Luxury ...The new Saudi Arabian city, “The Line”, is planned to be 170 kilometers long, 200 meters wide, and 500 meters tall. However, plans have reportedly been scaled back, with initial construction focusing on a 2.4-kilometer section of the 170-kilometer project, reports New Civil Engineer and New Atlas.
Length: 170 kilometers (106 miles) for the full project, with initial construction focused on a 2.4-kilometer section, according to this Facebook post, Wikipedia, and New Atlas.
Width: 200 meters (656 feet).
Height: 500 meters (1,640 feet).
I am taking the suspension bridge between Europe and Asia as a model for width, and the Saudi vision for length.
A city that is as wide as the existing Earth bridge, and as long as the Saudi vision, would contain habitable space for a significant number of people. That would be a fitting capstone to Louis' Sagan City concept.
I'm wondering if you might able / willing? to draw a sketch of what that system would look like?
Your initial vision is of a traditional circular hut or igloo (albeit stadium sized)... What I am seeing is a wide, tall and ** very ** long habitable space.
The tops of the suspension towers could include restaurants or similar amenities for those with an interest in seeing the Martian sky. With no light pollution, the nighttime sky on Mars should be spectacular. We get the occasional glimpse from rovers that look up every now and then.
A city this size would have ample need for light rail transport between residential areas and commercial/entertainment venues. Bicycles would seem appropriate for able bodied persons, and electric mobility carts for elderly or disabled persons. With any luck, Mars should grow it's own population of elderly in just a few decades.
The elevated roof might provide a location for a cable car ride the length of the city. ** That ** would be some excursion.
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For Calliban re brick dome with spiral work track...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 41#p235441
Thanks for a robust (in every sense) addition to the bricks topic.
Interior would (presumably) place the main street around the perimeter, with structures inside rising in a natural progression toward the center. Power, water, sewer and other utilities might connect to the center of the habitat. There might be under ground (and therefore under wall) passages for utility lines as well as humans seeking to go outside or to neighboring domes.
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For Calliban re epoxy glue in fabrication of brick dome...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p235444
I don't know the answer to this, but I'm hoping the concept makes sense.... Brick was fired to create the bonds that give it strength, so heating before emplacement would be a possibility for each individual brick. The epoxy needs heat to set, but I presume that after it has set it can give up the heat needed for forming strong bonds. My question is: Can an individual brick carry the thermal energy needed for the setting process?
Is there a potential advantage to laying the brick rapidly so that the heat in the prior layer is still available to facilitate setting of the next layer?
Finally ... It seems to me that lateral compression becomes a factor as the dome rises. In other words, while there is no support in the +X direction, there ** is ** compression available in the + and - Y directions. This compression ** should ** help the dome to sustain itself while it is evolving upward.
Your description of the brick assembly process reminds me of the building technique for a European cathedral dome that is noted in history because it was built without scaffolding. I think there is at least one post about this remarkable feat of construction in the forum. The individual who carried out this feat was surely a genius for his day. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the technique used. That was a huge dome for it's time, but small compared to the one you have described.
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For Calliban re post by Void: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 56#p235456
I know you do not have time to read every post on the forum, so there is a chance you might not see the post I linked above.
However, I think this one might be of interest because is shows experiment with shock compression of brick using simulated Mars regolith.
I assume that firing such a prepared brick would further increase it's strength.
If you have time, please write about the relative strengths of shocked bricks, fired bricks and whatever other categories there may be.
At some point you may see a need for a category on materials. The creation of a new category is something SpaceNut would handle.
The categories we have were thought to be of greatest potential when the forum was created 20+ years ago. SpaceNut has added one or two since then. Perhaps materials might deserve it's own category.
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For Calliban re suspended roof habitat vision: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 18#p235418
Thanks again for showing us this interesting concept for a self-supporting roof in a circular dome form.
A detail that might be present in the drawing is back stays for the cables.
It is possible that the tension of the cables will be born in compression by the circular wall.
If that is correct, then the benefit of the circular design is immediately clear, because no stays are required, as would be the case the the rectangular design inspired by the bridge between Europe and Asia.
Assuming (for the moment) that my interpretation of your drawing is correct, then I am immediately wondering how far that concept might be extended?
For example, is there any reason the design could not be extended to a diameter of a kilometer?
Is there any limitation on height? Could the circular wall reach as high as 500 meters?
I may be inadvertently combining concepts from two different topics....
A post in the Bricks topic shows a circular building with an attractive internal layout, and a diameter of 200 meters.
That would seem quite comfortable for a town or perhaps a large village.
From the Suspension Bridge topic, I see a drawing of a suspended roof over a circular form.
I am wondering if the Suspended Roof might be able to carry the load for a distance of a full kilometer.
The cables would never have to deal with the full load unless an emergency occurs, such as a space craft falling into the building so that the air escapes. During construction, the cables would only have to bear the weight of the roof surface that will be exposed to air pressure. Once air pressure is available to support the roof from below, regolith can be added to provide both pressure balance and radiation protection.
Once the pressure is established and assuming no catastrophe, those cables should be free of stress / tension for centuries.
What I'm wondering, however, is whether the basalt brick composing the wall would have enough compressive strength to stand up to the full burden of the loaded roof, if atmospheric pressure is lost for some reason.
(th)
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For Calliban re dome post ...
Regolith covers the dome and forms a spiral Ziggurat. This allows a spiral road to wind around the structure until it reaches the top.
You've given us a warning that collapse of a dome is a risk. You've shown us how to build such a structure without using internal scaffolding.
It seems to me that the external regolith used to make the spiral road will have some modest horizontal influence on the wall, but I'm hoping the compression strength of the brick will be able to handle that. As you have pointed out the risks of failure increase as the build approaches the peak.
How about constructing the cap inside the dome while the outer wall work continues, and lift the cap into place using pneumatic expansion?:
Your construction team is going to need plenty of atmosphere to fill the dome to 1/2 bar, so they would have that on hand to perform a pneumatic lift of the cap.
After the cap is lifted into place, you might have designed fixtures to allow it to be joined to the dome at the seam (other than epoxy).
Question: Is there any similarity between the epoxy you've described and the epoxy that SpaceNut found when he asked his AI assistant about the dome?
Perhaps they are one and the same?
The lift mechanism might be a fabric or plastic dome shaped tent. The pressure of the atmosphere pumped into the dome shaped tent would lift the cap and would press the fabric/plastic against the dome wall as an additional protection against leaks.
If you build the dome wall with projections on the inside, those could be enlisted to fasten plates over the fabric after it presses against the wall. I'm thinking here of studs similar to the ones that SpaceX uses for mounting tiles on the Starship vehicles.
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For Calliban ....
I have created a new Topic under Engineering >> Projects
This entire Category is visible only to registered members.
My hope is you might be willing to take charge of this topic, and manage contributions by members.
Here is the contents of the Index post:
This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.
I am inviting Calliban to manage development of this topic.
NewMars members are invited to ask Calliban how they might contribute to this topic.
Use Calliban Postings topic for communication.
My hope is that this topic will serve as a work plan and details source reference for someone planning a venture on Mars.
Index:
For Calliban ... please consider reserving the next post #3 for an Executive Summary
this would be maintained by you. I am happy to maintain the index in Post #2.
My idea here is that the total cost of the venture will change as you get estimates from subcontractors.
An example of a subcontractor is SpaceX, who is in the business of delivering payloads to orbit today, and will (most likely) be in the business of delivering payloads to Mars in the near future.
Examples of other subcontractors are those who would design and build the equipment you need to perform the various tasks needed on site at Mars.
The project goal might stretch all the way to admission of paying guests to the completed complex.
Fresh flowers would be a nice touch, along with home grown wine.
(th)
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For Calliban re new topic in Dome construction and operation ...
In a topic from 2002, NewMars members thought about fabric domes, and a few members took up issues such as atmosphere inside the dome.
It should be possible to calculate how much Martian atmosphere must be processed to yield the desired 1/2 bar atmosphere with 3 parts Oxygen to 5 parts neutral gases. There will be a ** lot ** of carbon extracted, and it seems to me that carbon could be put to use in a variety of ways that a pure brick concept might not include by default.
There will be a great deal more oxygen produced than is needed for the interior of the dome, because the neutral gases are so rare on Mars. Thus, the dome build enterprise has the opportunity to generate income by producing a variety of gas that can be sold for various purposes.
It should be possible to quantify these opportunities.
The entire project depends upon abundant reliable power and while Louis was fascinated with the potential of solar power, I do not consider solar power to be the best choice for this project. Since nuclear power (and specifically nuclear ** fission ** power) is one of your interests, it seems to be that component might be shipped from Earth, along with robots to perform construction tasks.
It should be possible to construct a reasonable time line for activities to occur, leading to the Grand Opening for the first human guest, and that display of freshly grown flowers.
Human supervision of the robot work force is possible. Any of a large number of lander designs could provide the habitable quarters for the humans who might be enlisted to supervise the work force, and perhaps as importantly, perform maintenance upon failed equipment as will surely be necessary over the long time of this project.
It seems to me that material excavated to make the foundation might become the compressed and fired brick that your design descrbes.
Depending upon how far down the bedrock might be, there might be enough material from the trench to supply part of the fill that your design describes as surrounding the brick shell.
Perhaps material might be excavated from the space beneath the dome to make the exterior fill. That would increase the value of the property, by increasing the usable volume under pressure, while retaining the desirable character of the village concept you have shown us.
Such a practice would also introduce the benefit of entrance ports around the column below the surface, leading to passages to adjacent domes, as well as to exterior access ports.
In an ideal design, nothing would be wasted.
(th)
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For Calliban re Domes for City Rising on the Plain
There is a bit of energy flowing around your idea of a brick dome for a village ...
SpaceNut has all sorts of questions but if he has asked you about any of them, I've missed the conversation.
I am interested in seeing your idea developed, and hope that we can interest folks who are not currently forum members to consider taking part.
In a scenario where the material to make the dome and the Ziggurat ramp is drawn from the volume underneath the dome, can you compute the volume that would need to be excavated?
Related to that is the question ... could cast iron provide the strength needed to build the living and working spaces under the dome?
In your original overhead drawing, I assumed you were thinking of having a surface based upon the existing regolith, and building materials would be drawn from elsewhere. In the scenario I've described, there would be a volume excavated under the dome, and living and working spaces could be created using suitable materials which ** would ** have to be sourced elsewhere. However, if cast iron is strong enough, it should be able to support the surface you've shown us in the overhead view sketch. If a dome village is to be self sufficient, it will need vertical farms to support the population, and those could be constructed in the volume under the surface.
Equipment for processing of fluids could be located in that volume as well.
All of this could be built on Earth, so that the automation to build the structures would be well tested before it is shipped to Mars.
Update: SpaceNut has expressed worry that epoxy might not be strong enough to resist Marsquakes. Do you have a sense of how strong epoxy bonds would be in event of a vigorous shaking?
(th)
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For Calliban re Dome structure...
I freed up a Gemini session for your initiative.... We got off to a bumpy start, but corrected the formatting and I think we are good to go for development of your concept as a project.
You are welcome to provide guidance if you would care to do so.
Please note that Gemini estimates the population at between 5000 and 8000 people, and that is just above ground.
If you excavate under the dome to provide the material for the dome, then the available volume would be even greater, although much of that volume would be allocated to city services, including fluid management, power/lighting/heating and food production in vertical farms.
I think of your dome concept as self sustaining (assuming sufficient nuclear power), and thus fully comparable to a deep space vessel for an extended multi-year mission.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p235730
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For Calliban re Dome structure...
kbd512 just added an interesting concept to the discussion about Bricks that started with your vision of a large dome on Mars
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 46#p235746
If you can find the time this weekend, please try (I understand how challenging it will be) to provide some guidance for SpaceNut and for me, as we try to bring AI tools to bear on the problems to be solved.
I am interested in the full implementation of your concept for Sagan City. kbd512 and SpaceNut have introduced the idea of collecting the material for the dome and it's fittings from an open pit mine. It should be possible to create a Python program to compute the mass movement to create the dome and it's fittings, and thus to determine the size of the open pit mine.
For construction, I would imagine the material from the mine would be moved to staging areas where it would be either made into shapes to be assembled for the dome, or saved for use in the ramp/road to build the dome and the surrounding liner.
I am still hoping your earlier work on cast iron on Mars can come into play, but I don't know if the iron would be available in the open pit mine. It might, but that remains to be seen.
An overall plan needs to insure the dome/village is self sufficient, and that includes growing it's own food in vertical gardens.
kbd512 talked about using sunlight but I think your vision leads us away from using solar photons for much of anything, and instead illuminating the doam with LED lamps bright enough to grow crops.
This whole enterprise depends upon your specialty, fission power.
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For Calliban re dome concept...
It appears that everyone who has commented about your vision takes away a different impression...
kbd512 said:
Here's a question I'd like the AI to answer for us:
By constructing Calliban's Superdome at the bottom of the open pit mine shown in Post #30, how much Solar Particle Event (SPE) / Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) / Galatic Cosmic Ray (GCR) radiation will the open pit mine block by erecting the dome at the bottom of the pit?
This is an important question to be asking, but I thought (from my reading of your posts) that you planned for the dome roof to be thick enough to block even Galactic Cosmic Rays. If you have time to think about the various responses your initiative has stimulated, I'm hoping you will then have time to provide some guidance for the members who are commenting.
I'd like to see your vision turn into something more than a few fleeting moments in this forum. I think your vision has the potential to complete successfully against the great variety of visions that have been developed and published to date, most of which none of us forum members have read or seen in the case of the video presentations.
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