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Another Elon Musk plans to have a city on Mars by 2050. Nüwa seeks to become first sustainable city on Mars with 1 million residents
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It's good that interest in Mars is rising but I couldn't see anything original in that article.
If Musk is going to go ahead with his one million person city idea, it will definitely require a lot of planning but Musk has said he wants a direct democracy on Mars and this would be an opportunity to allow that. Let the residents of Mars vote on plans, but also propose plans.
Maybe there should be weekly or tensol votes on important issues. But as I said it's important residents can propose as well as vote. That's what direct democracy means. It would be great if people were able to say "We want more basketball courts" or "We want to have our own private vehicles" or "We need more Earth-like environments".
Another Elon Musk plans to have a city on Mars by 2050. Nüwa seeks to become first sustainable city on Mars with 1 million residents
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Future Mars colonists may have company from 'locals' after all
https://www.universal-sci.com/article/p … obial-life
Timeline speculation
https://www.humanmars.net/p/mars-coloni … eline.html
speculative Mars Colonization Timeline,
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The timeline is way too pessimistic I think.
Firstly it looks like orbital flight is definitely achievable this year.
The genius of Space X's Mars Mission is it is robots first. So humans won't land for at least five years but we've seen the rate of development at Boca Chica over 2 years. There is simply no reason to think the rate of development won't pick up now some fundamental problems have been addressed.
Seems to me there are challenges but no fundamental obstacles: fire control oin landing, legs, and so on. The actual creation of a small base on Mars will be the easy bit, just like it was on the Moon...getting out of the lander and having a stroll was easy compared with what went before.
The Starship and booster seem really good concepts (unlike FH9) which will generate huge revenues in coming decades because they create a multi-purpose launch system.
Future Mars colonists may have company from 'locals' after all
https://www.universal-sci.com/article/p … obial-lifeTimeline speculation
https://www.humanmars.net/p/mars-coloni … eline.html
speculative Mars Colonization Timeline,
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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2024? that's less than 2 years to go
NASA the United States is still the leader in exploration
In Sagan's lifetime Russia the USSR was a big player in space, maybe they have been replaced by ideas from Japan, India, China and other nations.
Chinese rover finds signs of underground water-made structures on Mars
https://omaha.com/video_081f7df2-a935-5 … 7706b.html
'Would Carl Sagan have agreed with Elon Musk for wanting to settle on Mars?'
https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/ … e-on-mars/
'Carl Sagan's Message to Mars - This audio is now resting on Mars'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMvRpdOuX0
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For SpaceNut .... there are several topics containing the word "city" ... This one by Louis seemed (to me at least) a good fit for this post:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … 693893af6b
The article at the link above is filled with impressive art work!
It struck me immediately that this planned city would do well on Mars, with a few tweaks.
It already (appears anyway) plans to reuse water with high efficiency.
That would be essential for ** any ** city on Mars, and it is likely to become more normal in desert cities on Earth.
The Cool Down
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A tech billionaire is building a giant, 150-acre city in the middle of the desert
Story by Terrell Worrell • Yesterday 7:00 AM
288 CommentsCity in the middle of the desert
© Provided by The Cool DownTelosa, the sustainable city plan from tech billionaire Marc Lore, is not aiming to be a utopia. The plan’s website says that it is “firmly grounded in reality and what is possible.”
“We are focused on the best, most sustainable solutions,” the description reads. “But we fully recognize that no solution is perfect.”
So what do you call a city that aims to be sustainable, transparent, and affordable for 5 million residents if not a utopia? Lore is hoping people will call it “home.”
Welcome to Telosa!
Lore’s plans for Telosa were announced back in September 2021.The 150,000-acre plot of land — around the size of Chicago — was originally meant to be based either in the American desert or somewhere in the Appalachian region. But in a recent town hall, the project’s leaders narrowed its future location down to Nevada, Utah, or Arizona.
By 2030, the team hopes to have a diverse group of 50,000 people living in Telosa. It plans for that number to jump to 1 million by 2050, and 5 million by 2070.
Alana Goldweit, Telosa’s lead architect, explained the city’s layout in a slickly produced video on the project’s website. At the town hall, she said that Telosa will be made of 36 mixed-use districts, so residents can enjoy reaching all of life’s necessities in a 15-minute walk, as popularized by Carlos Moreno’s “15-minute city.”
A public green space will stretch throughout the spine of the city, giving 5 million people easy access to nature. The plans boast futuristic, organic skyscrapers, zooming monorails, community parks, and bustling ADA-accessible courtyards.
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Related video: Architect Explores Chicago's Hidden Architecture & History (Architectural Digest)
How is this going to work?Placing a city in the desert is great, until you want a glass of water. That’s why Telosa intends to store, clean, and reuse water on-site with high efficiency.
The city will run on renewable energy to increase sustainability and cut down on planet-warming pollution. Autonomous vehicles will keep the streets safe, and can save space for pedestrians and community spaces. Accessible education, job training, and healthcare are also major parts of the team’s plans.
When planning Telosa, the team examined ways to finance social services and decided on a new economic model, which it calls “Equitism.”
In this system, all of the city’s land is owned by a foundation managed by residents. As the land increases in value, the foundation can sell plots and leases and use this money to fund an endowment for the city. Telosa claims that, with this system, “as the city does better, the residents do better.”
But the endowment will need time, support, and philanthropic infusions to work as intended.
What challenges will Telosa face?
No city solution is perfect, and this one comes with a whole host of challenges.
As Sharon B. Megdal, the director of the University of Arizona Water Resources Research Center, told Smart Cities Dive, water rights and availability are critical for keeping desert communities sustainable. If groundwater isn’t replenished, it will run out — and desalinating ocean water takes a lot of energy.
As climate change causes more intense droughts, and as cities in the western U.S. keep growing, water systems are becoming severely overstressed.
Still, Lore believes that new technology and techniques are even more difficult to use when building around existing infrastructure. Conversely, Megdal and Natalie Bicknell Argerious, managing editor at The Urbanist, think that all of this investment would be better served if it was used to retrofit the cities we have now.
For Lore, drumming up public and political support is one of the biggest challenges facing his dream city. But if all goes according to plan, the first 50,000 people will be moving in by the end of 2030.
© Provided by The Cool Down
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As a follow up to the post above ...
It ** sure ** would help to have a robust nuclear reactor in the middle of the power station in this concept. I see signs of solar panels, and those are good, but they seem risky for long term planning.
Here is the web site for this initiative: https://cityoftelosa.com/
The only mention of power supply is renewable. I think that is short sighted, but I can understand the appeal.
This initiative offers an opportunity for a Mars qualifying equivalent vision, with nuclear power as the bedrock power source.
Everyone who chooses to become part of ** that ** vision would be someone who accepts the trade-offs for use of nuclear power.
Eternal vigilance is just ** one ** of the trade-offs.
(th)
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Mars might one day have a government and Capital and maybe if it is like humans do on Earth then maybe it we have Earth problems, if the Mars men if feel they have grievances they will also have a people angry, a riot and invasion of the National Congress?
Who in their right mind would build a city in freezing Polar Artic or Alpine regions, with little or no air like high altitudes, a dry desert plain.
However we as humans have built towns in the sands, we built cities in the ice and put towns on mountains but Mars will be a challenge unlike any other.
Those other rich Naysayers
'Don't go to Mars': Bill Gates slams Elon Musk's space ambitions as a 'waste of money' because he could be putting billions into buying 'measles vaccines and save lives'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … money.html
After Starship Test, Elon Musk Says It Is "Highly Likely" Man Will Go To Mars Within 10 Years
https://www.ndtv.com/feature/after-star … rs-3772163
I doubt very much Mars will have a city any time soon or even in the near-ish future but others believe something else.
If we think Mars will probably need Processing for Chemistry and Fuels, maybe Animals, Food Farms, Robots and maybe Cyborg and AI it could be unlike any other 'Town' or 'City' we have seen before.
Modern cities look much different to ancient cities, they are designed for bus and car and truck while in the past a city might have grown organic around a Fish and Bread market, a small boat was used by people in the River to collect 'Fish' a Tavern and Music Festival Theater and Temple growing to give something to a mass of population working hard on a nearby farm, the streets designed for a donkey and kart, a city on Mars could be so much different than a modern city is different to an ancient village and town.
Smart Cities of Tomorrow: How AI is Revolutionizing Urban Planning
https://www.devdiscourse.com/article/te … n-planning
Here are some of the ways in which AI is revolutionizing urban planning and shaping the smart cities of tomorrow
Traffic management: One of the biggest challenges faced by urban planners is managing traffic flow in cities. AI-powered traffic management systems can help reduce congestion and improve road safety by analyzing real-time traffic data and optimizing traffic signals accordingly. By using predictive algorithms, AI can also forecast traffic patterns and adjust traffic flows to prevent traffic jams before they occur.
Energy management: Energy consumption is a major contributor to carbon emissions and climate change. AI-powered energy management systems can help cities monitor energy usage in buildings, streetlights, and other infrastructure and optimize energy consumption. This can help reduce energy waste and lower carbon emissions, making cities more sustainable.
Public safety: AI-powered surveillance systems can help improve public safety by monitoring public spaces and alerting authorities to potential security threats. Facial recognition technology can also help law enforcement agencies identify suspects and prevent crime.
Waste management: Efficient waste management is crucial for the health and sustainability of a city. AI-powered waste management systems can help optimize waste collection routes, identify recycling opportunities, and reduce landfill waste.
Citizen engagement: AI-powered chatbots and virtual assistants can provide citizens with personalized information and assistance. They can help citizens navigate city services, provide real-time information on public transportation, and answer questions about city regulations and policies.
Emergency response: AI-powered emergency response systems can help emergency services respond to incidents faster and more efficiently. By analyzing real-time data from various sources, such as traffic cameras and weather sensors, AI can help emergency services understand the scope of an incident and deploy resources accordingly.
Urban planning and design: AI can help urban planners design more efficient and sustainable cities. By analyzing data on urban demographics, traffic patterns, and resource consumption, AI can help urban planners make more informed decisions on issues such as zoning, transportation, and infrastructure development.
and back on Earth Trump the sales man?
Donald Trump proposing charter for 10 new American Freedom Cities
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRWMGMe3/
As it happened: Donald Trump launches 2024 White House bid
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-63600151
He pledged to Land an American on Mars if he became president, and promised to reinstate soldiers that were kicked out of the military for refusing to get vaccinated against Covid
One time he's banned from the web, he now has a new voice across 'Alt-Tech'
He made a Blog then 'Truth Social' and websites like Gettr started to mirror his posts
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/news
Eventually the Big-Tech ban seemed pointless as now people on facebook and twitter also had their own ways to mirror his voice, the Bannings of Speech of Donlad Trump from Social Media happens across the internet, Facebook and Instagram banned him ,Twitter permanently suspended his online account handle, YouTube banned him for violating site policies on "civil integrity" and election misinformation, Snapchat indefinitely suspended Trump's account on the platform while Shopify terminated shops that sold Trump merchandise, some online book sites and stores started banning anyone that might connect in any ways to Trump, Instagram, announced they had banned Trump indefinitely, TwitchTv a gamer streaming website banned anything that links with Trump so was it becoming a witch hunt or purge?
Then when Elon Musk took over twitter the Trump name came back.
In Brazil a brand new city planned and built but then on the 8th of January 2023, following the defeat of then-president Jair Bolsonaro in the 2022 Brazilian general election, a mob of his supporters attacked Brazil's federal government buildings in the capital, Brasília.
will the Mars town ban the voices on its interweb or would its 'Mars Tv' also unban hotheaded political leaders?
Elections come again in 2024, will it be a US Democrat or US Republican?
Nikki Haley is a candidate in the 2024 Republican Party presidential primary for president of the United States in the 2024 U.S. presidential election. She announced her campaign in February 2023
https://abcnews.go.com/US/nikki-haley-l … d=97168476
Marianne Williamson is a declared Independent or Democrat Candidate?
https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2014/ … california
Which of them will promise a city on Mars?
In the past there was less planning and yet amazing cities of human culture were created that have lasted across time.
Will the Mars city take inspiration from past works and cultures or will it be totally new? Damascus archaeologists say was settled back to at least dating back the 3rd millennium BC or Before Common Era, Luxor also known in ancient time by its Greek name Thebes in Ancient Egypt dates back to 2150 BC, Luoyang Henan, Dongdu, Shendu from the Shang dynasty in China dates back to 1600 BC one of the oldest continuously inhabited city in China. Athens of Mycenaean Greece dates back to 5th–4th millennia BC its oldest recorded history begins at least from 1600 BC, Rome Italy dates back 753 BC but habitation going abck as far as 1000 DB. Jerusalem Israel strategically located ancient city that has been heatedly fought over by various civilizations, in Aleppo Syria a great city of antiquity with a rich heritage destroyed by ISIS and Civil War and Jericho’s rooms and walls and stone structure believed to be the oldest city in the world. Cusco of the Inca Empire in Peru dates back to. 1100 AD or Common Era.
In modern cities Sino-Singapore Tianjin Eco-city SSTEC, is a planned city developed jointly between the governments of China and Singapore. Pripyat was part of a horror story it is an abandoned city in northern Ukraine, located near the border with Belarus. Planned by Russian Soveits and the Ukraine it's population and had grown to a population of 49,000 + by the time it was evacuated one day after the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant disaster. La Plata is a Spanish Argentine planned and developed city made to serve as the provincial capital after the city of Buenos Aires. Adelaide in Australia was a planned city, established as a planned colony of free immigrants, promising civil liberties and freedom from religious persecution, based upon the ideas of Edward Gibbon Wakefield. Sapporo once had indigenous Native Ainu peoples it is new a city in Japan, the largest city north of Tokyo and the largest city on the cold island of Hokkaido. Sejong in South Korea was founded in 2007 a new planned capital of South Korea from many parts of the South Chungcheong province and parts of North Chungcheong province to ease congestion in South Korea's current capital and largest city. SmartCity is a technology park under development in Kalkara, Malta. Pegasus is a new town which plans to one day become a city in the Waimakariri District of Canterbury, New Zealand. Named for the nearby Pegasus Bay. Koronadal is a planned city signed into act, it is capital of the province of South Cotabato, Philippines. The city Visaginas is Lithuania's youngest municipality, on North-Eastern edge of the country. It was built as a town for workers engaged in the construction of the Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant. Finland Tapiola was largely constructed in the 1950s and 1960s by the Finnish housing foundation and was designed as a garden city. The United States has many many towns and communities built in the Colonial and post-Colonial era, some of them growing organic and some planned, Las Vegas, Nevada an example of a new community built in the 20th Century and New Orleans La Nouvelle-Orléans one time a French city, after France's defeat in the Seven Years' War and the Treaty of Paris, France transferred possession of Louisiana to Spain after the United States acquired possession from France in 1803 the city has been noted for its distinctive music, Creole cuisine, unique dialects. Los Alamos was one of the military 'secret cities' of the world built as part of the Manhattan Project, the current population is 12,000 + Roosevelt, New Jersey was a Federal Aid city built for Defense housing, the Russians also had 'secret cities' built during the Soviet Union. Brasília a city developed in a scheme to move the capital from Rio de Janeiro into the Jungles of Brazil but to a more central location.
and in East Europe a return of war and imperialism, Russia Invades Ukraine and turns populations into desolate wastelands. One day these wars may end and hellish landscapes of former Warzones could have stability and peace they could become city projects of the future, they will offer a much nicer place to live than a Moon of our Solar system or Mars.
Bipolar nature of city planning
https://www.business-standard.com/artic … 919_1.html
Transport and Urban Planning
https://www.massey.ac.nz/study/courses/ … ng-132314/
In education, they offer a University course
if you think a location like Mars it offers far more than 'The Moon', yet it will be more far away than sending robots or diggers to land up on a Mountain in Peru or China or Bhutan Mountains or the Mountains of Alaska or Denver and having Robots prepare your Biosphere there, it will be more dry than your Sahara Desert, the US Great Basin or Chihuahuan Desert or Great Australian or Patagonian Desert, it will be more cold and difficult than Utqiagvik, Alaska Located on Alaska’s North Slope, Svalbard in Norway, the Stations of Antarctica at the South Pole, Qaanaaq, Greenland city of Yellowknife in the Canadian Northwest Territories or Siberia or Khatanga, Russia or Deadhorse, Alaska but if done becomes one of the greatest challenges and achievements of mankind.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-06 18:54:15)
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Martian Cities Could One Day Be Built From Potatoes And Dust
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This topic has been sitting idle since 2023, when Mars_B4_Moon posted about Potatoes and Dust
I've decided to bring it back into view in light of the recent interest in Calliban's vision of 200 meter wide dome structures on Mars.
The distinguishing feature of Calliban's vision is construction using brick made from Martian regolith, and bound with an agent (possibly) made of epoxy.
In thinking about how Calliban's vision might unfold, it occurred to me that all the building material could come from the site of the structure, by excavating as much material as might be needed from the area under the dome.
The material needed would include allocations for the brick wall, and for the mounds of regolith Calliban has described as leaning against the brick wall to help to counter air pressure inside the structure.
The material would also include allocations for the buildings that are part of Calliban's vision, which is inspired by the cities of Europe, dating back to the Middle Ages and continued to this day, by avoiding the sprawl of cities in other regions.
I would like to see this forum become the home of authentic plans for construction of such buildings, and of the entire city that Louis called Sagan City.
Design of cities is the province of architects. This forum does not presently include a trained architect, but that could be remedied easily enough, if someone not currently a member were to inquire about membership.
(th)
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The idea of a 200 meter diameter brick dome for Mars is a gift from Calliban, in late 2025. Images are available in the Bricks topic.
One image shows a sketch of a cross section of the parabolic shape....
SpaceNut has shown a review/summary of dome designs, and catenary is one of them. I assume a catenary is a parabola but that is just a guess.
In the context of a dome, a catenary would be shown as a rope pulled into the natural shape by gravity and then inverted as the shape of the dome.
I'd like to see this idea developed with mathematical proofs.
***
The dome on Mars we are considering might be made of materials drawn from the site. The materials needed to construct the dome might be excavated from the regolith below the planned dome, and the materials needed to make the Ziggurat ramp Calliban has described might be drawn from the cavity as well. The result would be an excavated volume below the surface which would then be available for buildings able to reach up to the volume under the dome.
It should be possible to compute the volumes involved in this design.
In this scenario, outlets would be excavated for access to the surface. There might be four of these vertical shafts, or fewer. These shafts would include elevators as well as stairs for evacuation in case of power loss.
There are opportunities for architects or for students of architecture to create drawings of the proposed structures.
The entire complex would be built by automation. There are entire careers of opportunity for those who might be interested in planning the robotics operations needed for the construction of one of these domes. The surface of Mars provides apple space for multiple domes.
(th)
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Around 650 cubic meters are required for 100 people to survive on mars within a building. This includes set aside within the structure for all resources, Life support, Crew survival equipment. The estimate assumes an average weight of a crewmen of 200 lbs. per person, a minimum shipped food of 148,230 lbs, water of 111,700 lbs which is based on starships internal volume and travel of 6 months but on the surface we will want more.
For a Mars colony of 100 people, the living space requirement is estimated to be at least \(100\text{\ m}^{3}\) (\(~3530\text{\ ft}^{3}\)) per person for indefinite habitation, totaling at least \(10,000\text{\ m}^{3}\) (\(~353,000\text{\ ft}^{3}\)) for the crew. This accounts for not only personal living quarters but also essential shared spaces for work, recreation, and agriculture, which are necessary for a self-sustaining settlement. For transit, the space requirement is lower, with estimates around \(80\text{\ m}^{3}\) (\(~2825\text{\ ft}^{3}\)) per person for deep space missions, though designs can vary significantly. For a Mars settlement Total: A minimum of \(10,000\text{\ m}^{3}\) (\(~353,000\text{\ ft}^{3}\)) of habitable volume for 100 people.Per person: A minimum of \(100\text{\ m}^{3}\) (\(~3530\text{\ ft}^{3}\)) per person is cited as a requirement for indefinite habitation, based on scaling from civilian needs.Purpose: This space must include a mix of personal areas and shared facilities for activities like work, exercise, and agriculture. For Mars transit (per person) Deep space/Mars transit: NASA's baseline estimate for long-duration deep space missions is \(80\text{\ m}^{3}\) per person.SpaceX Starship: The SpaceX Starship is designed to carry up to 100 passengers in its total volume, though this is for later-stage colonization missions once infrastructure is in place. Key considerations Transit vs. settlement: The space requirements are vastly different between the long transit phase and the final, permanent settlement. Transit requires efficient use of space for a shorter duration, while a settlement requires much larger volumes for long-term sustainability.Infrastructure: A crew of 100 people would require significant infrastructure and cargo to support them, which takes up a large portion of the total volume available in a spacecraft like the Starship.
For a crew of 100 on a long-duration Mars mission (over 180 days), the estimated minimum acceptable living volume required is approximately 2,500 cubic meters (m³), based on a NASA guideline of 25 m³ per person.
Living Space Requirement for a 100-Person Mars Crew
The living space requirements for deep space missions are based on NASA research and historical spaceflight data. For long-duration missions (over 180 days), the primary concern is the "net habitable volume" (NHV) needed to ensure crew physical and psychological health and mission success.
The guidelines below detail the estimated volume requirements.
[h2]Key Metrics[/h2]
* Minimum Acceptable Net Habitable Volume (NHV) per person: 25 m³ (approx. 883 ft³)
* Estimated total minimum NHV for 100 people: 2,500 m³[h2]Factors Influencing Volume Requirements[/h2]
NASA research emphasizes a "bottom-up" approach to habitat design, where volume is allocated based on specific functional areas and activities.* Mission Duration: Requirements for short transit (e.g., a few months) are more constrained than for an extended stay on the Martian surface. The 25 m³ figure is specifically for long-duration exploration missions.
* Functional Areas: The total volume must support various functions, including:
* Private crew quarters (approx. 5 m³ personal space per person)
* Hygiene and waste management facilities
* Exercise areas
* Medical facilities
* Work and science areas
* Communal/recreation spaces
* Stowage for supplies and equipment
* Psychological Factors: Adequate space is crucial for crew well-being and performance in confined, isolated environments. Confinement studies and data from facilities like the International Space Station (ISS) inform these guidelines.
* Gravity: In microgravity, space can be used more effectively (e.g., all three dimensions). On the Martian surface, where some gravity is present, floor area and familiar terrestrial accommodations become more relevant.[h2]Comparison with Existing Habitats[/h2]
* Apollo Spacecraft: Very cramped, about 210 cubic feet total for a crew of three.
* International Space Station (ISS): Offers a much larger volume, around 152 m³ (5,368 ft³) per crew member for a six-person crew, as volume was not a primary constraint.The 2,500 m³ figure represents a minimum engineering standard; for optimal performance and comfort on the Martian surface, more generous space would be ideal.
Human Research Program
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For SpaceNut... please follow up with your AI friend to determine how much volume is available in Calliban's 200 meter diameter dome.
Please consider uploading the text from Calliban's posts so it knows what it is supposed to be talking about. I doubt anyone here is all that interested in the teeny tiny habitat that most folks are considering because that's all their imaginations will let them consider.
The 650 cubic meters for a construction shack you described in post #112 would get old in a hurry.
Let's up our game here!
After you obtain the figure for the dome, please ask your AI friend to compute the volume available if we excavate the material to make the dome from a cylinder below the dome. Calliban may be busy with work and travel and not get back to us for a while. There is no need to wait, if you can persuade your AI friend to do the work.
(th)
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You can get a rough internal volume but once the structures areplaced inside and you start to divi it up that volume will be less.
approximate 2,261,946 cubic meters.
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