Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

Calliban · 2025-11-12 17:30:06

It may turn out that substantial water will eventually be found beneath the surface of the moon. Go just 1m down and temperature is a stable -20°C even at the equator. So any water at this depth will not be mobile. Any that migrates through the interlocking maze of mineral grains, will be trapped at this depth. Any small cracks and crevices in the surface may also serve as cold traps.

Regarding the reduction of Mars iron oxide using hydrogen. This would be a good way of producing extremely strong bricks. Graded fine regolith is richer in iron oxide than most Earth soils. Graded fines could be compressed into a mold producing a green brick. The green brick is then baked in an oven at temperatures of 1000°C for a period of several hours in a hydrogen atmosphere. The iron oxide woukd be steadily reduced by the H2. This results in long chain oxide molecules with partial oxidation states. This polymerised iron oxide makes the brick stronger than steel (in compression).

Last edited by Calliban (2025-11-12 17:31:38)

Void · 2025-11-12 21:25:08

Good Points Calliban. There is certainly a lot of Moon and Mars to get water from and to make "Bricks" from.

I think that for both worlds, the story of the abundance of water keeps expanding.

So, it may be that there will be enough water to last, until a sort of Von Neumann process can be placed into the solar system.

Where that sort of thing speculates on a machine that seeks to replicate itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

We could imagine a collection of machines, not that much smarter than a bee's hive (More or Less) that would devote its interests in bringing volatile materials to dry worlds, and to maintain themselves. The solar system has energy and materials and time. If you put a semi-intelligent manipulative machine structure to work, it might dedicate itself to more or less irrigating our Moon.

But for now, there may be enough materials in the Moon to help bootstrap humans and their machines into the solar system.

Ending Pending

One thing I forgot to include is salt on the Moon.

As usual my phone search gave much more than my computer search, until I used phrases from the phone search:

https://www.sciencealert.com/change-5-m … -moon-soil
Quote:

Chang'e-5 Hydrated Salt Minerals
The Chang'e-5 mission has made significant strides in understanding the presence of water on the Moon. The mission's findings include the discovery of a hydrated mineral enriched in water, which contains up to six water molecules and accounts for about 41% of its mass. This mineral, known as ULM-1, is a prismatic, plate-like transparent crystal and is believed to have formed from volcanic eruptions on the Moon. The presence of this mineral suggests that water molecules can persist in sunlit areas of the Moon as hydrated salts, which could be crucial for future lunar exploration and habitation

Sodium and Potassium Salts have been mentioned as a sort of salt, but also in the atmosphere of Moon: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci … 1.4866.675
Quote:

Discovery of Sodium and Potassium Vapor in the Atmosphere of the Moon
A. E. Potter and T. H. MorganAuthors Info & Affiliations

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180981906/
Quote:

Scientists Find Water in Glass Beads From the Moon
This means the lunar surface could hold up to 300 billion tons of water, a new study estimates
Will Sullivan
Will Sullivan - Daily Correspondent
March 31, 2023

Some stories indicate that the beads came from volcanism, and some stories say it is beads from impacts that make craters.

So, here is the Question: "Could we manufacture the salts and beads, and put them under the shade of solar panels to collect water?" This is to collect water that moves horizontally with the day/night cycle. Then to extract the water and then restore the collector device.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-12 22:33:10)

Void · 2025-11-13 08:51:31

From post #26 Calliban said:

It may turn out that substantial water will eventually be found beneath the surface of the moon. Go just 1m down and temperature is a stable -20°C even at the equator. So any water at this depth will not be mobile. Any that migrates through the interlocking maze of mineral grains, will be trapped at this depth. Any small cracks and crevices in the surface may also serve as cold traps.

I am revisiting the ideas of Moon formation. Collision? Other?

Quote:

Images
Videos
Slight moisture content
The Moon is not completely dry, but it has a slight moisture content. Recent research has confirmed the presence of water molecules (H2O) on the Moon's surface, particularly in sunlit areas, indicating that water is widely distributed across the lunar surface. Additionally, studies have detected water within ancient volcanic deposits, suggesting that the Moon's interior may contain substantial amounts of water. Overall, while the Moon is not wet like Earth, it does have a slightly moist environment.
ZME Science
+2

https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post … eters-rep/
Quote:

Scientists have finally confirmed what lies deep inside the Moon and it’s surprisingly Earth-like
The moon is still an extremely interesting place to study.
Fermin KoopbyFermin Koop November 5, 2025 in The Moon
A A
Edited and reviewed by Mihai Andrei

I am going to speculate that the Moon may have water vapor emissions from deep down at times.

What seems to be more certain is that the Moon has water cycles like Earth even though it does not have a proper atmosphere.
it has water vapor, that "Condenses" into minerals in the temporary cold spots, and we think also longer-lived frost in the polar craters.

Can we ever say that the Moon has a Relative Humidity? I think it does.

Elon Musk has speculated that Quantum Computing might work very well on the Moon, in the polar craters. Also Data Centers with solar power on the Moon. If there is $$$, then it may be affordable to import substances the Moon is low on, but it may be that it has enough water.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-13 09:07:59)

Void · 2025-11-14 08:55:49

This topic has a multiplanetary range, but ultimately it is more about being able to redirect energy to suit human desires than anything.

In post #11, I mentioned making wind breaks to hang solar panels on, in Hellas.

Elsewhere (th) is working on "Trees" for Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11237

This is fine as we may get multiple solutions.

I start with bulk materials from Mars in the case of Mars:

Quote:

Copilot Search:
The process of compressing Martian soil into bricks has been a topic of interest for researchers and engineers. Here are the key points of the process:
Mars-1a Simulant: The process involves using a Mars-1a simulant, which is a Martian soil simulant created to mimic Martian soil conditions.
6
High-Pressure Compression: The soil is placed in a flexible container and compressed under high pressure, similar to the pressure generated by dropping a 10-lb hammer from a height of one meter.
5
Iron Oxide Binding Agent: The iron oxide particles in the Martian soil act as a bonding agent, allowing the soil to form a solid that is similar to dense rock.
6
Strength and Durability: The resulting bricks are stronger and more resilient than steel-reinforced concrete, even without the need for additives or heating.
6
This innovative method not only reduces the need for additional materials but also eliminates the need for heating or baking, making it a practical solution for constructing structures on Mars. The research has been supported by NASA and has the potential to revolutionize space exploration and settlement on Mars.
6

.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/mars-brick-is-cool/
Quote:

Turns out you can make harder-than-concrete bricks on Mars simply by compressing soil
That's surprisingly convenient.
Alexandru MicubyAlexandru Micu April 27, 2017 - Updated on April 22, 2023 in Science

Image Quote:

So, I would be thinking of a form of metal perhaps into which you could compact Mars soil to make walls to serve as the "Trunks" of "Trees".

https://happho.com/rammed-earth-construction-house/
Image Quote: modernhouse03.jpg.webp

The metal form would be reusable.

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

This may, among other things serve as a "Wind Fence" and may somewhat prohibit "Dust Devils".

Dust collected may be converted to something else that will not blow in the wind.

The "Salt Pad" is to be in the shade almost always, and is intended to be cold and to collect moisture.

Robots can microwave it to release water vapor, and a vacuum can collect and condense it into water.

I you have water, and CO2 and Nitrogen, and electricity from sunlight then you can synthesize both a fuel and Oxygen to feed microbes with.

By filling Hellas or other areas with such "Trees" we are increasing the surface area of Hellas, and then so dividing the sunlight. While the solar panels may be warm when illuminated, they may have offsets to allow air to pass behind them. The walls of the trees will tend to be cold.

So, the wind break effect and the coldness of the air coming from the walls, may tend to discourage dust devils. By arraigning that and by collecting the dust into larger objects we may discourage Global Dust Storms.

Mars Global Dust Storms tend to erupt once every 3 Martian summers, I believe.

So, for at least 2 out of the 3 summers we can shine light on the "Trees" in Hellas from orbit. In the other seasons we can do that as well.
This should increase productivity. But of course the goal is to quell Global Dust Storms, so this has to be moderated carefully to avoid those.

I think that the other factor of Mars Global Dust Storm would be a cold Mars Winter in the North Hemisphere.

Using mirrors we can warm up the North polar areas to inhibit that factor. While doing that we can also do "Mars Trees", or even melt some water from the North Ice cap.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 09:41:11)

Void · 2025-11-14 10:43:41

I wish to innovate on the basis of a post from (th): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p235457
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 23,092
Email
For Void re https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p235455
Thank you for the reminder of the important and visionary work you are doing!
It seems to me that the idea of dust fences would certainly help with the ongoing and persistent problem of dust on Mars.
In opening the new topic about fixing the surface of Mars, I was attempting to follow up on ideas of Calliban and kbd512 about materials that are available on Mars. It seems to me your idea would surely help, with the caveat that the material of which they are to be made must be identified.
It seems to me that fences such as you have described might help to ease the problem, by discouraging dust from lifting up into the air in the first place.
A study of how well fences work for this purpose would be interesting.
A similar idea would be honeycomb style structures. Those would just be tiny fences. The dust might flow in but it is unlikely to escape.
Thanks for your suggestions!
(th)

In the area where there are ice slabs we might mine ice and create "Dust Trips". Extracting the ice and leaving a hole.

The only problem with this is we have to make sure that we pack enough dirt onto the walls of ice left behind so that the ice body does not keep evaporating.

While many who think of mining this ice will think to blast and collect or liquify, I am of the view that forced sublimation may be best.

How about a big hovercraft balloon with skirts? It is to have a tank to compress Mars air into, and then may periodically release the air under it to become temporarily mobile. The Balloon may become a condenser for water, as heat applied under it would evaporate a trench, and the air sucked in then compressed and the Mars environment being cold condensation may result.

The device may have a following skirt that will tail in the trench which is being created.

Heat is applied under the device to cause buried ice to waste into water vapor. The water vapor is sucked into a compressor and so condensed into liquid water, and perhaps Ice.

Water Trucks should then come to take away the collected water to a desired purpose such as Fuel for Starships or greenhouses, etc.

A balloon hovercraft would be lightweight and so relatively easy to move with bursts of compressed air under it and with longer intervals of harvesting water. The Balloon itself might be the reservoir of compressed air to do the movement.

The resulting trench may possibly demobilize dust that falls into it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 11:08:15)

Void · 2025-11-14 11:50:04

I would hope to have "Mars Trees" eventually wherever temporary ice caps form. The vertical walls might thaw much sooner than the ground that they are on so this might allow an early spring thaw. Of course, the structures will have to endure a Martian winter with CO2 condensate perhaps.

We could hasten the thaw of the temporary ice caps with orbital mirrors. We would be shining light onto vertical solar panels mounted on the "Mars Trees".

As for the South and North Ice caps, I suggest only warming the south cap to vaporize the permanent CO2 ice cap content.

As for the North I would want to try to melt a little sea all the way around that North ice cap.

Copilot Search:

Images
Videos
The northern ice cap on Mars depresses the rocky crust beneath it due to the weight of the ice. The ice sheet is approximately 1,000 kilometers in diameter and up to 3 kilometers thick, and its load causes a phenomenon known as glacial isostatic adjustment, which is similar to how Earth's surface is affected by ice sheets. This process results in the crust being depressed, with the rate of deformation estimated to be about 0.13 millimeters per year, indicating that the mantle beneath Mars is highly viscous and cold.

https://astrobiology.com/2025/03/marss- … neath.html
Quote:

Mars’s Northern Ice Cap Is Young With A Cold, Stiff Mantle Beneath
By Keith Cowing
Press Release
DLR
March 3, 2025
LinkedInFacebookTwitter
Filed under DLR

So, I am hoping for direct melting under ice. That is you might create an aquifer in the ice cap by bombarding it with microwave energy, and sunlight from mirrors. Rivers can flow on Mars if they are ice covered.

So, I hope to produce a liquid water sea ringed in the low area around the ice cap. The Sea will be ice covered, but may support life under the ice.

So, indeed I intend to promote the idea of Mirrors made from Phobos and Deimos, to assist in making Mars more habitable.

Keep in mind that in the deep winter of Mars mirrors will be melting this ice, not just in the summer.

As for evaporation, it has no place to go but onto one of the ice caps.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-14 11:56:54)

Void · Yesterday 09:27:00

The Saudi seem to be involved with an interesting process for cooling solar panels.

https://www.sustainability-times.com/en … gy-output/ Quote:

“Desert Tech Breaks Physics”: Saudi Cooling System Slashes Solar Panel Heat by 49°F, Triples Lifespan, Surges Energy Output
In a remarkable breakthrough for renewable energy, scientists at Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology have developed an innovative cooling technology that dramatically enhances the efficiency, output, and lifespan of solar panels, promising to reshape the future of solar energy.
Rosemary PotterRosemary Potter06/06/202536

Copilot Search:

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) has developed a groundbreaking cooling technology for solar panels. This innovative method utilizes a composite material made of lithium chloride and sodium polyacrylate, which absorbs moisture from the air during the night and releases it during the day through evaporation. This process not only reduces the temperature of the solar panels but also boosts their power output and extends their lifespan. The technology has been tested in diverse environments, demonstrating its potential for widespread application in the solar energy sector.

From post #29:

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

So, we have two methods to collect moisture from the Mars atmosphere, and in one case it may increase the output and longevity of solar panels.

The salt bed I suggested needs an independent robot to collect moisture from the salt periodically. However, the Saudi method with the moisture collector behind the solar panels, then releases moisture on the heating of the solar panels, and that moisture could be automatically collected at the tops of the solar panels.

Now then a Mars tree could do various manipulations.

It could split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and release them to atmosphere. The Hydrogen would be a greenhouse gas but would rapidly leave the atmosphere.

Or you could make hydrocarbons and Oxygen (Also using CO2) and feed it to microbes. Mushrooms could grow on the residue of bacteria.
The organic process would probably leak greenhouse gasses by intention or as a natural imperfection of a process.

So, these trees could in fact produce product, Algae, Yeast, Mushrooms perhaps. Also, electricity also Methane could be created, and Oxygen created.

And it should be reminded that water is to be produced as well, so humans could live near these "Forests". The "Forests" can be at very low altitudes like Hellas and the Northern plains. These places provide relatively better radiation protections.

Electrical conductors and pipelines could be involved in networking these outputs to a useful purpose.

So, it would make a great deal of sense to use mirrors in orbit to add more photons to the processes of these "Trees".

The trees will still need robot tenders, to clean dust off of the solar cells and for other purposes.

So, this might be a pretty useful component of a method to make Mars to be alive and reasonably productive.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:44:51)

Void · Today 09:27:09

I choose not to think of Earth or Mars, but rather, expansion into the solar system when circumstances make it viable.

Before the North Polar ice cap might be colonized, then Korolev might be done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater) Image Quote:

At a similar time then a small part of Hellas might be done: https://www.humanmars.net/2019/04/map-o … water.html Image Quote: Map+of+shallow+subsurface+water+distribution+on+Mars+by+ExoMars.jpg
At about 60 degrees longitude and south of 30 degrees latitude, part of Hellas shows hope of buried water ice.
I have prepared a method for a Hellas without ground ice but it seems there may be some ground ice in places.

And the rift valley show hope, between 90 degrees and 60 degrees longitude and just south of 0 degrees latitude.
Whttps://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/astronomers-discover-hidden-water-in-the-red-planets-grand-canyon-180979267/e have reason to believe that there are significant ice deposits in "Candor Chaos". Quote:

Beneath Canyons on Mars, Astronomers Find Potentially ‘Water-Rich Area the Size of the Netherlands’
A Martian orbiter located a large reserve of hydrogen in a mountainous area of the Red Planet
Elizabeth Gamillo
Elizabeth Gamillo - Correspondent
December 20, 2021

Image Quote:

This topic is mostly about orbital mirrors adding light to areas of a world that may benefit from it. These may do.

I expect such a orbital system and the things that support it to primarily be made of materials from Phobos and Deimos.

While Candor Chaos might do well with solar panels that are relatively flat to the surface, I intend that a wedge type solar panels might be used in both Korolev and Hellas.

Some experiments have been done on Earth, with Bifacial solar panels. A wedge solar panel system simply opens one end of the structure.

From post #29:

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

By rotating the structures 180 degrees we can make them suitable for Korolev Crater.

Possibly to cover the entire ice mass of the crater. The solar panels could be refrigerated using heat pumps running directly from the electric power of the solar panels. The excess heat may be put to other services such as greenhouses, and artificial lakes.

While naturally Korolev would have very long dark winters, with orbital mirrors this does not have to be so.

But I see the orbital structures made of Phobos and Deimos being more important. The deltaV of them is less to be in communion with Earth/Moon than the surface of Mars is.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:54:20)

Void · Today 14:07:48

(th) probed me about mirrors and references: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p235500

My reply: Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,999
Email
https://www.reflectorbital.com/
Plenty of negative comments about it.
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

I recall reading a Sci Fi book where a character perhaps named "Ajax", had a homestead in Canada which was lighted by mirrors. So, the concept is not very new.

It seems that the startup will be very humble in its initial efforts. Low Earth orbit devices with limited capability.

But ultimately a mirror might be expected to reflect maybe 80% of the light that impinges on it, and redirection may be possible. If it were a flat mirror with perfect flatness, the light would perhaps not expand that much. For instance, the value of 1.5 AU would make an ideally placed Mars (At 1.5 AU), receive light attenuated by 1/2 due to spread over distance. But if the whole beam hit Mars, then Mars would get the ~80% increase in lighting for the surface area that the light impinged on.

Light hitting a mirror at geosynchronous would have to come back from that mirror to the Earth at some location so the spread would be about 2x the distance to geosynchronous, presuming the mirror is orbitally behind but not occulted by the Earth. So, far less than how much it would spread in going to Mars. So, just for giggles let's say a bit less than ~80%.

As far as levering this thing to point accurately, I guess mount it on a large mass or use gyroscopes.

If you wanted light intensities > ~80% then you could overlap the output of 2 mirrors to the same location and get ~>160% the light of noontime, more or less.

If you wanted to focus the mirror, I suspect that it can be done.

One thing I could annoy you with would be putting mirrors on most of the near side of the Moon and having them on actuators so that they could focus on the Earth. I got an honored member here to insinuate I was an idiot when I last suggested that.

Mirrors would perhaps be more practical at first to power solar satellites, and for those Satellites to beam infrared lasers to other equipment in orbit such other Satellites and maybe electric driven spacecraft such as Ion propulsion.

The value of beamed power is that a spacecraft can have a "Tuned" solar panel that is tuned for a particular wavelength of light. Delivery efficiency might be about 60%. This then allows a spacecraft to have a power supply of a lesser inertia. The provider being massive sends the power and the receiver does not have to propel the sender.

One side property of mirrors in space would be to be able to occult the Earth. If they pass between the Earth and the Sun, they may lessen the amount of sunlight that the Earth receives at one location. If that were to be sent to another location on Earth, then that does not really warm the Earth. If the energy from the mirror is used to power things in orbit, then the Earth is cooled.

Now there is the question of future space junk. I don't think we will be dumping junk into the atmosphere soon but will be recycling it. As recycled it could be made into many things, and perhaps mirrors.

Yes astronomy will suffer, but we will have to see them get many more and bigger space telescopes as compensation.

This little company wants to attempt mirrors in space. Who am I to say no? And in the first post my point was the person does not own space and does not own people and especially does not own me. If you peer into the intentions of leftist people you will come to understand that they intend to own the people, and they imagine themselves as the enlightened and worthy ones who shall own us and all the products we might produce.

Mirrors could certainly be of value on the Moon and for Mars. So, I don't mind a little practice with them.

Here is something that is more likely sooner: "Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE?"

I can suspect that the above query is already being twisted to emphasize astronomers' concerns, and the related issue of global warming.

That is not what I want to discuss! High probability this is Anti-Elon Leftist guidance.

Modified the query: "Description, Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE? 1d ago,"

Impossible! The discussion I want to have is about data centers in space and these verbal idiots are determined to have the conversation about global warming.

Anyway because of them I cannot get that video. I will just have to say it myself. The Satellite network in space will draw power from the sun and so then not draw power from the Earth's grids (Power Plants).

This inevitably will lead to space junk. Rather than dumping it into atmosphere, it will need to be harvested and recycled. Not all of it could be used for original purposes, and perhaps some could be made into mirrors or other things.

Elon Musk has proposed eventually making satellites on the Moon and launching them with Mass drivers. Again, after being done with their original purpose, the mass can be repurposed again and again.

Mirrors for the Earth could be created in certain instances.

I wonder (th) did you read any of the other posts in this topic before you challenged the legitimacy of the creation of this topic?

Such as how to increase food production?

But don't worry, none of us do everything perfect all the time. Certainly not me.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 15:01:48)

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#26 2025-11-12 17:30:06

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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