Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar

Void · 2025-10-06 13:14:49

I begin with Phobos and Deimos as the initial targets, but do not exclude other rubble piles.

Although the "Jar" could be smaller, I will begin with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere
Quote:

500 meters (1,600 feet)
The Island One space habitat, also known as the Bernal sphere, is designed to simulate artificial gravity. It has a diameter of 500 meters (1,600 feet) and is capable of supporting a population of approximately 10,000 people. This habitat is designed to provide living and recreational space, with a Crystal Palace habitat for agriculture and sunlight provided through external mirrors.
Wikipedia

Probably smaller synthetic gravity devices could be made from a collection of Starships though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … -on-phobos
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
1 meter deep
The dust layer on Phobos is estimated to be at least 1 meter deep, with some sources suggesting it could be as thick as 100 meters. This fine powder layer is primarily formed from impacts over millions of years, and it covers the entire surface of Phobos, which is one of the two moons of Mars.
Stack Exchange
+5

OK, so presuming that it will be radar mapped, and perhaps probed with a dip stick, a site will be selected, likely near a rotational pole.

Using a heating source like microwaves, an initial ring will be created in the surface materials.

https://interestingengineering.com/scie … g-the-moon
Quote:

Microwaving the moon may be best for landing spacecraft, propose scientists
Scientists analyze best ways to build spacecraft landing pads on the moon and propose melting lunar soil with microwaves as the most cost-effective method.
Published: Dec 21, 2022 10:47 AM EST
Photo of the Author Paul Ratner
Paul Ratner

Since I am presumed to be a Dum Dum, I will use a calculator: https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/circumference

500 meters diameter>1570.796 Circumference. But we may want it a bit larger than that.

For Dum Dum's 5154.19948 feet it seems, so substantial.

So, to melt/sinter a ring of rock from surface regolith. So that will be rather a ceramic like substance I expect. It would be nice if we could put some kind of tensile band on top of it. Iron might be possible perhaps somehow anchored into the rock ring. It might be possible to use it as a rail to navigate a device around like a track.

The ring would be of a substantial weight, even in the feeble gravity of Phobos.

If this initial ring can be established, then I think to borrow from some of Calibans concepts and some of my own from a different topic.
This topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p234719
"Index» Terraformation» Space Habitat Networks"
Post #26 from that topic, Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196
Email
I have occasionally wondered about the potential for a small asteroid mining vehicle. This would target NEAs <10m in diameter. Such bodies would be completely disassembled. Useful metals and volatiles would be extracted. The remaining slag would be a mixture of iron, magnesia and aluminosilicates. These could be used as propellant by heating them into plasma with radio frequency heating. Small vehicles equipped with solar electric propulsion working on this principle, could ship the valuable materials back to high Earth orbit. The same propulsion tech would then be used to shift the orbit of the asteroid mining vessel to intercept the next NEA.
We have examined how we would mine such objects in previous work. One method would be to surround the body with a rotating ring. The ring would carry a set of arms equipped with enclosing shovels. These would grab chunks of surface material and drop it down chutes also mounted on the ring. The whole arrangement would be enclosed in a thin polymer bag to prevent loose material from escaping and contaminating the local space. The chutes would empty into ore processing. How we seperate recovered materials into useful elements needs more consideration.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 07:35:04)

So there are other tools mentioned in that topic also but let begin with the enclosing shovels. These and other tools can be dependent for anchoring on the rock ring that was created.

In this post from that topic more tools are on offer: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 85#p234585

So with the collection of tools, we may extract Oxygen, Hydrogen (If present), Carbon (If present), Iron, and leave a remainder of a "Slag" that can be pasted on to the ring we already made.

Processing the materials inside of the ring we may dig a hole make these materials and extend the walls of the "Jar" downwards. We may also make a "Lid" on the jar, with doors.

I think that when the jar is sufficiently completed, we may find very thin amounts of Hydrogen and Helium in the interior of the "Jar".

The moon is apparently porous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Phobos_(moon)
Phobos (moon) - Wikipedia
Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity. [23][24][25] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice.

OK it would probably be wonderful if Phobos had ice in it but I am presuming that it does not. However, I speculate that it may be permeable to Hydrogen and Helium in the solar wind. (And Protons perhaps). While the solar wind moves fast, I speculate that these molecules will have been stilled to some extent.

If we release Oxygen while processing regolith in the Jar, and we provide a hot catalyst, it may be that water would be formed. If we then provide a cold trap, we might capture the water molecules. I do not expect a dense abundance of the molecules but rather a molecular flow environment.

By the time the "Jar" has a lid on it, doing any form of sintering inside the Jar, or Pyrolysis, will release some Oxygen, and we hope some Carbon. From Anthrofuturism, it seems that if we do repeated Pyrolysis, we will not lose Hydrogen but can reuse it repeatedly. In fact we may gain Hydrogen if the process captures it from solar wind products or if there was some Hydrogen in the rock.

At some point the "Jar" may become large enough that we can bring Starships in though doors in the lid and set up synthetic gravity inside of it.

Probably sintered trackways could extend from the "Jar" perhaps to all surfaces of the little world.

So, possibly this is approaching a method to work with rubble piles about the size of Phobos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-06 14:08:56)

tahanson43206 · 2025-10-07 06:20:58

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.

The vision laid out in Post #1 would appear to be applicable to a great number of objects in the Solar System and elsewhere.

As it happens, other writers have been thinking about making habitats out of objects orbiting outside the Orbits of the inner planets.

Not ONE of the authors I have seen so far have had what it takes to plan actual ** work ** to be done. It appears to be easy to create a conceptual image with a few words. It is far more difficult to work out how the atoms that may exist in a particular object can be manipulated (with a plentiful supply of energy) to deliver a habitat for humans, complete with ** all ** the attributes we consider essential.

The work would begin with precise identification of the atoms available in a particular object. Then, what kind of a habitat might be constructed from this collection? In most cases, atoms not present in the object will have to be imported.

The work to be done includes identification of the atoms to be imported and their quantities, as well as locations where they can be procured.

The next step is to work out the procedures by which the project can proceed. Some activities must take place before others, and some activities can be carried out in parallel.

On Earth, we have a precedent for this kind of activity. There are companies that specialize in building subdivisions of large cities. We have other companies that are able to create entire running cities on vacant land. I am thinking (of course) of military situations, but something similar happens when natural or human caused disasters occur.

Index:

(th)

Void · 2025-10-07 10:15:31

Thank You for stopping by and commenting (th).

I expect that for any rubble pile Iron bonded with Oxygen is a likelihood. Some magnetic Iron is also likely.

I appreciate that Starship is using ability to travel to Mars directly from LEO as a goal that helps specify its characteristics. Apparently, the nature of it that this creates is at least somewhat compatible with other solar system objectives.

But we can expect that various kinds of electric propulsions will be more emergent over time. This could lead to a situation where products shipped from Earth/Moon and elsewhere could be in collaboration with products that could be more completed on the moons of Mars.

As it happens also, products like Iron which might be produced on these moons may serve as propellants for electric driven processes such as On-Board rocket mass drivers, or MagDrive or Neumann Drive.

It also seems that at the same time power beaming methods will emerge where power plant which will largely not be changing its inertia can transmit power to a transportation device that will be changing its inertia.

So, an electric driven inertia and orbit change device could achieve capture to a temporary high Mars orbit using Ballistic Capture methods, and then immediately begin receiving energy transfers to it from power stations in orbit of Mars. Arriving to Deimos it could then take on more propellants such as Iron, and the by similar means drop orbit down to Phobos and take on more Iron and probably deliver products and receive products.

While Phobos is most likely to produce bulk items like Iron, maybe Aluminum, and Oxygen, minority items such as to make alloys, might be brought from Earth/Moon. The machinery to be used on Mars or Phobos and Deimos could be produced by various methods, perhaps including 3D printing.

The same electric propulsion, perhaps including the use of Iron as propellant, could lower a Starship refilled with LOX to a very low orbit so that it could begin air braking to land on Mars.

My computer is acting extremely slow, so I am not happy. It maybe I am being somehow impeded in my efforts to communicate.

Last edited by Void (2025-10-07 10:33:23)

Void · 2025-10-07 10:53:38

It is not possible to continue posting as this site is operating extremely slow.

Void · 2025-10-07 10:59:23

The problem appears to be on New Mars, as I am able to play this video at normal speeds on my computer: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
When initiated from the New Mars site it also seems to play at an OK speed.

But the site is very bogged down.

I will attempt to finish my posting at a later time.

Last edited by Void (2025-10-07 11:03:11)

Void · 2025-10-07 12:00:29

Ok it might be better. I ran into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qobvNGc_LQ
Quote:

FLOAT: Low Maintenance Lunar Cargo Transportation System with Magnetic Levitation
Space Startup News

Seems like something similar might be good for rubble pile worlds, and habitat mega structures.

I have personal things to do so I will resume later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-07 12:02:12)

Void · 2025-10-07 14:23:16

Well, we can see how this goes. Here is a transplant from another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p234645 Quote:

I believe that this is going to be massively important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0tMViyxxcw
Quote:
At 18 He Took On Space Energy! Satellites, Lasers & the Next Frontier
Over The Horizon
The basic notion is power plants in orbit that send laser power to spacecraft.

So, yes, to me it seems apparent that a laser beam power grid could link Deimos, Phobos, Mars and the rest of the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-07 14:25:31)

Void · 2025-10-08 10:28:56

So, I am presuming that in dealing with rubble piles we are likely to encounter various sized rubble. Dust is apparent and boulders are present. Massive slabs of rock are expected by me.

But an interesting construction technique in the orbits of Mars and on rubble-piles is to collect "Cobbles" into "Chicken-Wire-Nets".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobble_%28geology%29
Image Quote:

Our cobbles from Phobos and Deimos will likely not be round. However, they will likely be possible to manipulate with Callibans tool, the enclosed shovel with robotic arm. While eventually the "Chicken-Wire-Nets" can be manufactured on site, I expect that for some time, they will be an import from Earth/Moon.

For the most part if handled with care cobbles can likely be contained in "Chicken-Wire-Nets" in the feeble gravity environments of Phobos and Deimos, and in microgravity. However of course should there be an explosion, they could become a navigation hazard. So as in almost every technological endeavor, there will be "Best Practices".

So, as the "Jar" is dug, a roof could possibly be created by using iron fixtures and imported Chicken Wire, and putting cobbles into the nets created. This then to be assistive in creating a void in a jar, relatively protected from radiation, impactors, and thermal fluctuations.

So, previously I anticipated creating sinter and glass objects and linking them with simple iron fixtures created on site. But this is new, possibly useful option as well.

As for giant slabs presumed to be in the interior, I am anticipating putting in connecting members and clearing them of rubble, and maybe walling them off with some sort of metal webs, and even jacking them away from each other to create larger internal voids, to put things into. We need to discover the internal reality of the moons and other ruble piles.

A bit of progress found in this post, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-08 10:41:08)

Void · 2025-10-08 14:58:00

So "Dumb Bags of Rocks" may be of significant value in Space.

Lets imagine that this is a "Chicken Wire Dumb Bag of Grey Rocks" in microgravity:

We have a kinked pathway in, and this structure might provide protections from:
-Radiation
-Impactors
-Thermal Fluctuations.

We may attach power devices to this so that it can have electrical power. Solar devices or nuclear devices.

We may make an Igloo structure on Phobos and/or Deimos.

At some point a Stupid Bag of Rocks, becomes heavy enough even in the gravity of Phobos and Deimos, that you can use it for a fulcrum for mechanical attachments.

I do not intend these structures to hold air at all, in fact I do not want them to, as I do not want a rapid expansion of gas to blow them apart.

Along with "Chicken Wire" simple iron fixtures might be used, even small metal beams. Perhaps also some kind of cloth, maybe a beta cloth attached to the "Chicken Wire".

"Chicken Wire" is deformable but also can to a limited extent hold form.

Thank-you wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_wire
Image Quote:

So, in my mind Chicken Wire might be relatively light to transport to the Orbits of Mars, from Earh/Moon. And might be possible to manufacture from Phobos or Deimos, somewhere down the line. Keep in mind that Simple Steel Iron-Carbon, will not likely rust in the situation I have proposed.

We do not have to galvanize it for this purpose: Quote:

Thin, flexible, galvanized steel wire
Chicken wire, or poultry netting, is a mesh of wire commonly used to fence in fowl, such as chickens, in a run or coop. It is made of thin, flexible, galvanized steel wire with hexagonal gaps.
Chicken wire - Wikipedia
Wikipedia

So Wrought Iron suggests here other Iron forms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron
Quote:

Wrought iron is an iron alloy with a very low carbon content (less than 0.05%) in contrast to that of cast iron (2.1% to 4.5%), or 0.25% for low carbon "mild" steel. Wrought iron is manufactured by heating and melting high carbon cast iron in an open charcoal or coke hearth or furnace in a process known as puddling. The high temperatures cause the excess carbon to oxidise, the iron being stirred or puddled during the process in order to achieve this. As the carbon content reduces, the melting point of the iron increases, ultimately to a level which is higher than can be achieved by the hearth, hence the wrought iron is never fully molten and many impurities remain.

So, we might value "low Carbon "mild" Steel" the most: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/meta … 719e2f6ea5

Wire: https://www.asiametalltd.com/news/Low-C … rview.html
Image Quote:

I am thinking that with a Carbon or Hydrogen Pyrolysis process done on the fines, we could extract Iron and Oxygen, at least and then make Steel Suitable for wire and that wire can be formed into a matrix like Chicken-Wire, to stuff correct sized rocks into, to make shelters in low g environments.

Then we can put space stations inside of those.

Space stations of Starships, and like those of "Vast Space" and others, including inflatables as well.

Pretty good, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-08 15:34:39)

Void · 2025-10-08 16:34:30

So, can we perhaps consider if we are about to enter a "Space-Iron-Age"?

Iron being relatively easy to be had, and of many uses.

I have that Chicken-Wire could allow us to bundle correct sized stones into useful objects.

We might make Iron and Steel metal works that would allow us to bond large pieces of natural stone together for a purpose.
Also created "Stones" might be bonded in a similar fashion.

Iron and associated materials might be made into propellants for:
-Mass Drivers
-Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/
-MagDrive.: https://magdrive.space/?trk=organizatio … pdate-text

But now, what about a on board Mass Driver?

Well, Iron can be magnetic. So, it could be shot out of a Mass Driver. At the same time though we do not want to clutter the space-ways with collision hazards.

Magnetite dust might work, I am not sure though if we want it magnetized, We do not want clumps of dust that persist as objects. We want the dust to disperse, and be carried on the solar wind.

Magnetite has a bit of Oxygen in it so we then turn it into a propellant as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Quote: (See the actual formula in the source above):

Formula iron(II,III) oxide, Fe2+Fe
3+
2
O4

But now, what if we make "Mini-Comet" ice bullets?

The Ice could be various types, but I do not want to use water, it is too valuable. CO2, "Dry Ice" may do though.

So, now if we mix Magnetite Powder with Dry Ice, we might shoot it out of a mass driver and it may well evaporate explosively in the sunlight, dispersing the mass of the "Comet-Bullets".

The CO2 is more Oxygen and some Carbon of course.

We hope we will get Carbon from Phobos and Deimos.

We expect that we will get Iron and Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos.

Do, Phobos and Deimos have Carbon in them?
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 009085.pdf
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
Images
Videos
Yes
Yes, Phobos and Deimos are believed to have carbon in them. Both moons exhibit a carbonaceous composition, with evidence suggesting that they may contain carbon-rich materials due to their surface characteristics and reflectance spectra. The presence of carbon in these moons is consistent with their carbonaceous chondrite-like composition, indicating that they may have formed from carbon-rich rock mixed with ice.
NASA
+2

This has been somewhat disputed by a space probe of an Arab nation. So, we don't know for sure. But Mars certainly has Carbon.
And so do many asteroids.

Other than the dispersal methods I have mentioned, The direction and speed of the bullets may matter.

If they impinge on an atmosphere, then they will burn up. That could work for Mars if the bullets are fired retrograde.
Also, if the bullets are given sufficient speed they may leave the solar system.

Finally it may be useful to fire them slightly above or below (Alternately), the plane that spacecraft are probable to travel in.

So, we have some good options, I think.

Particularly if our power is going to be beamed to the ship that is expelling mass from a relatively stationary power satellite.

So, A SPACE IRON AGE!

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-08 17:05:01)

Void · 2025-10-08 17:50:54

Now, I am at the point where I would like to seek out asteroids of interest, about the size of the moons of Mars, and possibly intercepting the orbits of Earth and Mars. (Or close to it).

This group is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_asteroid

We really are in the dark about these objects, especially the "Stony" ones. They may have Hydrogen of some sort in their chemistry, but we don't know. But they apparently have some small amount of water from impactors and perhaps interaction with the solar wind.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3516308120
Quote:

Summary
Observations of the two largest NEOs, 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed taken over their 2011–2013 apparitions, show evidence of absorptions in the 3 µm spectral region consistent with hydroxyl or water. Roughly half of the eight observations of Eros show such absorptions, as do at least seven of the nine observations of Ganymed. These absorptions have band depths in the range of ∼1–5% at 2.95 and/or 3.1 µm. Similar band depths on the Moon and Vesta indicate hydrogen amounts of ∼100–400 ppm, qualitatively

But this may be sufficient as the work of Anthrofuturism, suggests that Hydrogen Pyrolysis, does not give up Hydrogen but may accumulate it.

So, if we might make Iron and Oxygen products, the Hydrogen amount may accumulate.

Carbon friendly asteroids are the majority, but stony ones are more likely to be near us. I do not know what their Carbon content will be. In the case of rubble piles, there could be different types of contributions. If these are from the Mantles of previous larger asteroids that had cold brine seas on them, it could be that some of the rock will have some carbon in it.

Anyway, at some point we might want perches on asteroids that are somewhat between Mars and Earth.

The question is, do we do Moon>Phobos/Deimos/Mars>Tweeners or do we do some other progression. If we develop Phobos and Deimos we may be able to support efforts to settle these Tweeners from Phobos and Deimos.

I guess time will tell.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-08 18:12:07)

Void · 2025-10-08 20:35:02

OK, I get triggered by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zaIEybTD8E
Quote:

Today, I Got Space-Pilled ???
HyperChange

And: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Why Starcloud Wants to Put Data Centers in Space (and What That Really Means)
YouTube
Thinking On Paper: Technology, For Curious Minds
519 views

So, now, might there be money in bringing mass from Phobos or Deimos or NEA's to build these machines? Well maybe mass from the Moon, maybe from Earth.

But the point is, if you can do propellants of Iron with electric propulsion, and can use robots to run the ships, and the energy is from the sun, then is time the only problem? If you can get mass to Earth orbit from any of these sources at a reasonable price do you care so much about time?

One thing that annoys me is that solar panels in space may be low efficiency due to a hostile environment. But could you make a structure to shelter these panels and the data centers out of rubble pile asteroids, the moons of Mars, or our Moon. I don't have a bias, but think we should look to see if something can be done.

Part of the harshness of space is radiation and impactors. We would like to protect humans from these and temperature issues. But could we do both humans and solar panels and computers?

Can we bring rocks from outer space to do such things? Asteroids, the moons of Mars, or our Moon. Whichever can be done best!

Ending Pending

They say the current cost is $6000.00 per kilogram.

They could do their business for $500.00 per kilogram.

SpaceX is saying they might get to $10.00 per kilogram, and charge $50.00 per kilogram.

They could make lots of money even if the price was $50.00 per kilogram.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-08 20:56:05)

Void · 2025-10-09 08:17:40

If most labor on Earth is going to become robotic, and servers in orbit will help support them, then we can suppose that the same should be done for Mars. And Phobos and Deimos can be supportive of that.

The energy resources in orbit have a vastly larger potential for quantity and quality than accessible surface energy.

Relatively raw materials from Phobos, such as Chicken Wire cages of cobbles might be used to give some shelter to the data centers.

Iron and Steel could be useful. Probably robots could have Steel parts created from the materials of the moon and installed to robots that would be shipped from Earth/Mars. The low gravity situation of Mars/Phobos/Deimos may be permissive for the weight of these parts.

Coolants of CO2 and H20 could primarily be made of Oxygen from Phobos and/or Deimos, and possibly Carbon. Hydrogen may need to come from Mars.

Here is another article about power beaming in orbit: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1MXCJK Quote:

Wireless power beams charge satellites
Story by Alexander Clark • 2w •
3 min read

I have been considering "Habitable Radiators" and Biocompatible Habitats. These in orbit of Mars might house the servers and even house humans.

Here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 10#p234710

Quote:

Here I have added extensions to the structure:
Separate chambers that still will act as parts of the radiator. Refuges in case the sun section becomes uninhabitable for a time.
Where I am going with this is to blend habitats/farms, with power plants.
We will intercept the output of photons from a star, and make connection to the universes drainage system for heat.
Tapping into entropy, I guess, harnessing the waterfall or perhaps say "Thermal-Fall".
Which is where everything we have to live on comes from anyway.
Ending Pending
In general, instead of moist soil as a radiation protection I just want water, and outside of the "Cans" Aluminum fins in the form of Chevron.
If people want "Dry Land" they then need stilted platforms or rafts or boats.
This will be more useful in places in the solar system where water can be produced out of smaller gravity wells.
For instance for Mars the Hydrogen might come from Mars, and the Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos.
Ending Pending

For Mars Orbits though I might think of some changes.

Rather than water inside, I suggest mostly dry. This is for fear of rust of Iron and Steel parts.

Radiation protection could be Chicken Wire Cages of Cobbles that do not rotate.

So perhaps a form of Air Cooling? The waste heat to warm the habitats.

Also, lots of energy beamed to the devices from orbiting power plants.

If you want gardens, then you might have Greenhouses inside of this where humidity can be higher. But lots of food likely will be synthetic such as cellular fermentation and precision fermentation. Just so the outer walls of the cylinder are kept dry.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-09 08:39:31)

Void · 2025-10-09 14:30:48

I know that any idea other than people in balloon suits occupying Mars as the entire method is kind of sacred to the notion of the attainment of Mars.

But it only makes sense that if Earth is to be organized as having major servers in orbit which will be used in robots including humanoid robots, that we should expect that Mars should be arranged that way.

Calliban has provided a very useful post elsewhere, that may be helpful for understanding proportions of Bennu, Deimos, and Phobos.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p234557
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,198
Email
Bennu is technically easier to reach than the surface of Mars, or indeed, the moon. Its mass of 70 million tonnes, is sufficient for 20 Island One habitats and several hundred 10GWe solar power satellites. It is known to contain water, carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus, in concentrations much greater than we are likely to find anywhere on the moon. Whilst Mars is scientifically more interesting, Bennu offers better near term commercial prospects. The two goals are not mutually exclusive of course. But if I were in Musk's position, I would probably prioritise near earth asteroud settlement and mining, for the simple reason that they are more likely to offer a return on investment in a reasonable window of time. For space settlement to be sustainable, it needs to pay. The biggest hurdle that space colonisation faces is developing a business case for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
Quote:

Mass (7.329±0.009)×10 (To the 10) kg

Quote:

Dimensions 565 m × 535 m × 508 m (1854 ft × 1755 ft × 1667 ft)[1]

(.565 * .535 * .508 =
A cube of those dimensions would be about 0.1535557 km.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Quote:

Mass 1.51×10 (To the 15) kg[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Mass 1.060×10 (To the 16) kg[8]

Phobos Dimensions: Quote:

Dimensions 25.90 km × 22.60 km × 18.32 km
(± 0.08 km × 0.08 km × 0.06 km)[7]

A cube of those dimensions would be about 10723.4288 km.

If we divide the value for Bennu into the value of Phobos, then 10723.4288 / 0.1535557

So Phobos is very approximately 69834.1305 as large as Bennu. (Yes, I know neither one is a cube and in reality, neither is as large as the cube I used. But I am seeking a very loose estimation of relative quantity of materials).

In the quote above, Calliban said

Its mass of 70 million tonnes, is sufficient for 20 Island One habitats and several hundred 10GWe solar power satellites.

So the amount of orbital structure that we could make out of the two moons is enormous.

Could it ever make sense to ship materials from Phobos and Deimos to Earth/Moon?

I guess, if it competed well with getting those things from other worlds such as Earth, Moon, and NEA's.

So, if the method of propulsion was electric with Iron propellants and robotic guidance, time may be the only issue. Usually traveling from Earth to Mars and vice versa, 2 or less years are needed. But in the end do we care if it takes 5 or 10 years to ship materials?
Earth/Moon<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos ? Depends on the product.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-09 15:12:21)

Void · 2025-10-10 09:24:30

So, revisiting the post of #9: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 61#p234761

I would think that a rock igloo might be a first effort to make and establishment on a moon or Mars.
Quote:

We may make an Igloo structure on Phobos and/or Deimos.
At some point a Stupid Bag of Rocks, becomes heavy enough even in the gravity of Phobos and Deimos, that you can use it for a fulcrum for mechanical attachments.
I do not intend these structures to hold air at all, in fact I do not want them to, as I do not want a rapid expansion of gas to blow them apart.
Along with "Chicken Wire" simple iron fixtures might be used, even small metal beams. Perhaps also some kind of cloth, maybe a beta cloth attached to the "Chicken Wire".

While the use of robots is probable, if humans were also to participate, they would likely have to be conditioned periodically either on the surface of Mars or in a spin gravity device that likely had been sent from Earth/Moon.

Again the Igloo rock structure is sort of a tent like dome made of appropriate structural beams and chicken wire. Rocks held in wall compartments are to be inserted into the structure, to provide a protective surround of an inner chamber, which is above a pit on the surface of a rubble pile world.

Additional "Domes" could be added horizontally, but also digging the pit deeper, it may be that we want to create retaining walls of Sintered or vitrified/glass rock.

Cobble sized rocks can be used to fill the netting chambers of the domes, and smaller materials may be processed to extract such Oxygen, Iron, Carbon, and Hydrogen as are obtainable by easy reach methods.

Nature has provided a lot of grinded rock over billions of years, but if digging the pit deeper an adaptation of the Quaise methods: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Their method might be energy consuming, but can both produce rock to powder and produce a vitrified wall for a drilling hole.

So, if a large rock is encountered while drilling an option can be to turn it into dust, and also using microwaves it may be possible to vitrify the walls of a pit being dug. This would produce a "Jar". If we go down far enough and encounter large slabs of rock, we might create caves by using some sort of jacking method to part large rocks and putting supports between them. Also, small materials could be removed between large rocks.

At some point a large enough chamber might support a synthetic gravity machine inside of such a chamber. Perhaps composed of Starships and maybe space station modules, including inflatables.

Phobos has a lot of void space in it already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

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Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Phobos_(moon)
Phobos (moon) - Wikipedia
The high porosity of the interior of Phobos (based on the density of 1.88 g/cm 3, voids are estimated to comprise 25 to 35 percent of Phobos's volume) is inconsistent with an asteroidal origin. [51]

So, supposing the entire moon Phobos was processed into space structures we could probably increase the void space by many times. And so the moon would be even more porous, and much larger in outside dimensions.

If an electric method of propulsion using Iron as propellant can be created, then Starship might lift those propellants and the solar power plants for such propulsion from the Earth and possibly the Moon.

Then using electric propulsions, the ships passing to the moons of Mars could bring special alloy materials for Iron maybe other metals, and rather than those ships going back to Earth they could stay and be refilled with more Iron propellants from Phobos.

Having laser methods of sharing energy these ships could both do propulsions and send energy to Phobos..

Once again from post #7, we have this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p234745
Quote:

Well, we can see how this goes. Here is a transplant from another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p234645 Quote:
I believe that this is going to be massively important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0tMViyxxcw
Quote:
At 18 He Took On Space Energy! Satellites, Lasers & the Next Frontier
Over The Horizon
The basic notion is power plants in orbit that send laser power to spacecraft.
So, yes, to me it seems apparent that a laser beam power grid could link Deimos, Phobos, Mars and the rest of the solar system.
Ending Pending

The point is a electric rocket system then could only bring enough propellants to do an initial capture to a high Mars orbit. Then its siblings refilled with Iron from Phobos and/or Deimos could go and refill it's Iron propellants. Also, these devices could share energy.

Much is made against Mars about it's dim sunlight, but very thin mirrors can amplify that light in Mars orbit rather easily, so I would say Mars orbits will be energy rich, unlike the surface of Mars.

So, I make this argument that if we find that these machine systems that I have mentioned do actually emerge to be practical, then the moons of Mars should be of great interest to us.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 10:02:00)

Void · 2025-10-10 10:45:46

Following up on the previous post.

A question exists. If you send power plants to Mars using Iron propellants, and saturate Mars orbits with these power plants, can we economically bring Iron back to Earth/Moon orbits, cheaper than to get the Iron from Earth, Moon, or NEA?

The process might involve several power plants in Mars orbits with Iron propulsion escorting a return to Earth/Moon ship to a very high orbit of Mars. So, the return ship would be completely filled with its Iron propellants. Starting from a very favorable orbit of Mars.

Then the Escort ships would return to Deimos or Phobos to be refilled themselves.

But it may be that Iron or some other propulsion method may be better obtained at Earth/Moon by other means.

Of course, whatever is cost effective would be the likely choice.

The Neumann Drive Efficiency:
https://neumannspace.com/wp-content/upl … _Apr24.pdf
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30% more efficient
The Neumann Drive is claimed to be 30% more efficient than NASA's HiPEP system, which is the most powerful and advanced space technology organization on the planet. This efficiency allows the Neumann Drive to achieve a specific impulse of up to 14,690 seconds, significantly surpassing the previous record held by NASA's HiPEP system. The drive's efficiency is attributed to its use of magnesium as a propellant, which is more common and readily available compared to the xenon gas used by NASA. This makes the Neumann Drive a viable alternative for space missions that require fuel efficiency and the ability to be transported and stored with a full load of fuel.
Neumann Space

Of course this may be with a substance other than Iron. I do not have that information at this time.

I do not know how efficient MagDrive is, but:
https://orbitaltoday.com/2025/03/25/bri … -for-fuel/
Quote:

Home > Space > Satellites > British Startup Magdrive Created Satellite That Eats Space Junk for Fuel
British Startup Magdrive Created Satellite That Eats Space Junk for Fuel
Satellites
25 March 2025

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How Efficient is the Magdrive space propulsion
Magdrive's space propulsion system is designed to be more efficient than traditional methods. The system utilizes a method of power generation that ionizes solid metals instead of using pressurized gas, which is a common approach in satellite propulsion systems. This method allows for a balance between efficiency and power output, resulting in a system that is electric propulsion with a magnitude improvement in thrust, with a reduction in volume and mass. The Magdrive system is not currently refuelable, but the startup hopes to use existing space junk, such as dead satellites, to harvest metal for propellant in the future. This approach not only improves efficiency but also contributes to space sustainability by utilizing resources that are already present in space.
Orbital Today

My impression is that MagDrive will have more thrust than Neumann Drive but may not be as efficient.

And I propose a "Mini-Comet Mass Driver Engine".

While other ices might do, I propose to disperse into Dry Ice "Bullets", magnetic dust, so that these objects can be expelled from a spaceship, to provide propulsion.

The probable atoms for this will be Oxygen, Carbon, and Iron in some magnetic form.

It is obvious that CO2 can be obtained in bulk from many sources in the solar system. Iron and Oxygen are also relatively easily extracted from typical regolith.

Oxygen of course is extractable from many atmospheres, and Carbon can come from the Atmospheres of Mars and Venus. Dry Ice seems like it might be relatively easy to handle at distances such as that of Mars from the sun.

So, it could be that we can get all of these ingredients from the moons of Mars, but if not then the Atmosphere of Mars can provide lots of CO2.

And human breathing can also supply CO2 for this method of propulsion.

I think it could be very powerful, but I do not know about efficiency.

The intent is that after expelling such a bullet the sunshine will evaporate the CO2 and the dust will be dispersed into the solar wind which will carry it away out of the solar system, at least to the heliopause.

So, these 3 methods of propulsion could be on board a ship if they are useful to the traveling of it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 11:02:27)

Void · 2025-10-10 11:19:03

The two prior posts that I made today could additionally be supported by the use of T.A.R.S, which is a thing that Calliban has introduced previously.

It is possible that ships returning to Earth could be given a boost with Tars, but also several substances might be transportable using it.

Iron, Dry Ice, Carbon, and Water. These might be kept from being very much trouble for boil-off.

So, these if packaged correctly could be ejected from Mars orbit to more inner, elliptical orbits, and a electric propulsion ship could overtake them on the way and pick up this cargo.

https://dailygalaxy.com/2025/09/tars-sy … ar-system/
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Tars Accelerator using Radiation from the Sun
TARS: Solar-Powered System That Could Help Us Break Free From Our Solar System
TARS, or Tars Accelerator using Radiation from the Sun, is an innovative space propulsion system that harnesses solar radiation to accelerate microprobes beyond our solar system. The system consists of two reflective paddles connected by a tether, each coated with a reflective side and a dark side. Solar radiation from the sun pushes on the reflective side of the paddles, causing them to spin and generate speed, eventually flinging the attached spacecraft away from the solar system. The key to TARS' effectiveness lies in its "torqued" nature, where sunlight continuously applies pressure to the reflective sides of the paddles. This method allows for the creation of a spinning, ribbon-like solar sail that can release a microchip payload at high velocity, potentially reaching up to 7.5 miles per second. While this speed is fast enough to escape the solar system, it is still far from enough to reach other star systems in a human lifetime. However, TARS offers potential solutions for improving the system's performance, such as using advanced materials like graphene and incorporating quasites—modified solar sails that balance gravitational pull and radiation pressure. Combining these methods could potentially increase the launch velocity to up to 620 miles per second, reducing the travel time to Alpha Centauri significantly.
The Daily Galaxy

While they want to use sunlight, I might want to use Electric Iron propulsion to spin the device. The devices could be very large and made from materials of Phobos and Deimos.

Another possibility to spin them would be to project an electron beam from a source, perhaps Phobos or Deimos. I am relatively ignorant of how this works and its potential in this case but maybe it has application.

https://www.sciencenewstoday.org/relati … lar-travel
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The concept of using relativistic electron beams to propel interstellar spacecraft is a groundbreaking idea that could make interstellar travel feasible within a human lifetime. This method leverages the unique properties of electrons, which can be accelerated to nearly the speed of light, to generate enough force to push spacecraft across vast distances. The "relativistic pinch" effect, where electrons traveling at high speeds resist dispersion, allows the beam to remain coherent over longer distances. This approach could potentially transmit power over thousands of times the distance from Earth to the Sun, offering a more cost-effective and scalable alternative to current propulsion methods. However, significant engineering challenges remain, including the need for a beam-generating spacecraft powered by sunlight near the Sun and the efficient conversion of beam energy into propulsion without overheating the spacecraft.
sciencenewstoday.org
+5

As I say, I don't know if some version of this could work near Mars or not. But an electron beam, unlike a laser beam has mass. And over time the orbits of Phobos and Deimos could be altered by shooting an electron beam out of them at a TARS. The TARS then could eject resource packages into sun orbits that electric propelled spacecraft could intersect.

Iron and Carbon will not have boiloff of course.

Tanks of water/ice will not be likely to boil off unless the tank is ruptured.

Dry Ice might be preservable by putting a good sunshade method on the container.

* Incidentally Neumann Drive can use Carbon as a propellant as well as Iron.

We may well have many places where we can extract CO2 and Carbon.

I will not mind some comments from the members if they feel they could participate.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 11:31:10)

Void · 2025-10-10 11:46:31

If the materials of the three prior posts are workable, then resources created from raw materials from Mars/Phobos/Deimos could be transported to Terrestrial Crossing Asteroids. Those asteroids then also can become a contribution of raw materials to a solar system transport method(s), and we could access Venus using those resources, I expect.

Venus Asteroids: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … s-AA1NY6SB Quote:

Mysterious Asteroids Near Venus May Be on a Collision Course with Earth
Story by Octavio Curiel•
3d

I feel that a proactive method to protect Earth would be to consume and move the materials of dangerous asteroids. That might protect other planets as well.

And now we might think that Venus has much more water in it's clouds that was said before, and it also has Iron in it's atmosphere.

https://earthsky.org/space/water-in-ven … eanalysis/
Quote:

New study says water in Venus’ clouds surprisingly abundant
Posted by
Paul Scott Anderson
October 9, 2025

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Venus has more water than was thought
A new study has revealed that Venus' clouds contain much more water than previously thought, with about 60% of the clouds' composition being water. This finding, based on a reanalysis of data from the Pioneer Venus 2 mission, suggests that the clouds are not as acidic as previously believed, and could potentially be more habitable for microbes. The study was published on September 26, 2025, and highlights the importance of reanalyzing old data to gain new insights into the planet's chemistry and habitability.
EarthSky
+3

Now, here is a big question. Could we hurl containers of Dry Ice into orbit of Mars from the summit of Olympus Mons or other high elevations?

I think we can get CO2 from the moons of Mars, but if we could use CO2 from Mars, that would be beneficial. Combined with Iron from the moons of Mars you would have almost unlimited propellants.

Of course, you would have to have the containers that could endure the push to orbit. But once above the atmosphere, a laser could allow vented CO2 to circularize the orbit of the packages.

The packages might be mass produced on Mars, perhaps of Steel? Maybe brought back down with a Starship?

Anyway, there is plenty of Carbon and Oxygen from Asteroids, and we hope from Phobos and Deimos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 11:59:51)

Void · 2025-10-10 14:18:04

I have an idea that I suppose could be its own topic, but I will initiate it here:

I would call it "The Slow Boat <> Fast Boat Method".

Here is the deal. Electric Propulsion is faulted as it is slow, perhaps too slow to transport people.
But it is efficient.

And if it turns out that Neumann Drive and MagDrive work well, then we might do "Island Hopping".

From one point of view this might be the squandering of mass, but on the other hand it may allow us to better handle time.

We may suppose that we will have robotic electric propelled vehicles with high efficiency.

We may suppose that they might spiral in and out to travel from one world to another.

The problem with such a vehicle traveling from Earth/Moon to Mars is:
1) The sunlight gets dimmer as you spiral out. If you are using solar panels they give less and less energy.
2) You have to bring all you propellant from Earth/Moon to Mars and use it as you go.

For the moment I am only imagining spiral paths, it is possible that there are alternatives.

Now suppose you designated 3 "Islands" between Earth/Moon and Mars.

A slow robotic ship can supply these island slowly, and we may not mind if it takes months and years to go one way.

For a Trip Earth/Moon>Mars, a ship may start without mirrors for there solar panels.
And that ship only has to have enough propellants to reach Island #1.

* These Islands are more or less in sun circular orbits.

At the edge of the hill sphere of Earth Moon, the FastShip can be refilled and proceed to Island #1.

At Island #1, the Fastship takes on more propellant and is loaned a set of mirrors to improve the performance of it's solar panels.

Then the FastShip goes to Island #2 and does the same thing.

Then the Fastship does it again.

Then the Fastship arrives in a high Mars orbit where it can again be refilled with more propellants from a "Mars Island".

Then the FastShip goes to Demos/Phobos/Mars and along the way may refill.

And if the same ship were to go back to Earth/Moon:

Refill at the high orbit "Mars Island"

Goto Island #3 and leave your mirrors there, but pick up smaller ones.

Goto Island #2 (Repeat)

Goto Island #1 (Repeat)

Go to a high orbit "Earth/Moon Island".

And so on.

It may be that some refilling of the islands can come from near asteroids, not just Earth/Moon & Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

So, if the solar system provides an abundance of Iron and other propellants, and the energy is constantly available and we have robots to run the SlowShips, do we really care if we "Squander" mass?

I would not mind some member inputs here.

Just in case it is not yet understood, we hope to quicken the flight time of the FastShips by keeping their mass low and yet their propulsion nomal or high.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 14:35:39)

Void · 2025-10-10 14:50:34

Continuing with the previous post:

The "Islands" could start as robotic warehouses, but gradually be upgraded to be suitable to have permanent human habitation, I think.

And what if you had 10 islands between Earth and Mars?

100?

1000?

Over time you have more survival options is your ship encounters a problem. You are more likely to reach a refuge and also may be more likely to receive help and rescue.

It is kind of like being able to stop off at a gas station every few hundred miles rather than having a gas tank large enough to drive around the world 10 times. (Only much more so)

For instance, what if a segment of travel only lasted a month and then you could stop at a station and take a break and catch the next FastShip leaving for your next destination.

Ending Pending

The asteroids will have plenty of Iron and other propellants, and then there is the Moon, Mercury, and I guess even Mars itself.

That's a lot of propellants.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 14:52:04)

Void · 2025-10-10 17:55:10

So, an "Island" could be a robotic warehouse, or something more.

A garden run by robots might assist visitors. Probably a FastShip stopping by could discharge its waste materials to it, and yet pick up food.

The waste could be treated with pyrolysis to produce CO2 for plants, and the sterilized remnant could be used as fertilizer.

Probably a FastShip would recycle air and water, but not so much grow food or carry a lot of food.

So, a garden run with robots might be low pressure, but the station might have a pressurized space that the people in a FastShip seek sanctuary in.

But an "Island" might be a home for some people as well. 100 to 10,000 people perhaps. In that case it would be much more extensive and have fully pressurized gardens.

Maybe as much as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere
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Bernal sphere
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For fictional structures for living in space, see Space stations and habitats in fiction.
Exterior of a Bernal sphere
Interior of a Bernal sphere
A Bernal sphere is a type of space settlement intended as a long-term home for permanent residents, first proposed in 1929 by John Desmond Bernal.
Bernal's original proposal described a hollow non-rotating spherical shell 10 mi (16 km) in diameter, with a target population of 20,000 to 30,000 people. The Bernal sphere would be filled with air.[1]

But one with spin.

Quote:

In a series of studies held at Stanford University in 1975 and 1976 with the purpose of speculating on designs for future space colonies, Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill proposed Island One, a modified Bernal sphere with a diameter of only 500 m (1,600 ft) rotating at 1.9 RPM to produce a full Earth artificial gravity at the sphere's equator. The result would be an interior landscape that would resemble a large valley running all the way around the equator of the sphere. Island One would be capable of providing living and recreation space for a population of approximately 10,000 people, with a "Crystal Palace" habitat (consisting of several rings attached to the sphere at each pole) used for agriculture. Sunlight was to be provided to the interior of the sphere using external mirrors to direct it in through large windows near the poles. The form of a sphere was chosen for its optimum ability to contain air pressure and its optimum mass-efficiency at providing radiation shielding.[2]

Let's say 10,000 of these with 10,000 people each, between Earth and Mars.

100,000,000 people???

So, then the "SlowShips" would do freight between these an natural worlds, and this setup would support Electric Drive "FastShips".

Ending Pending

Probably other designs can be considered but:

Image Quote:

Ending Pending

As for power plants, I am open to both solar panels and heat engines using mirrors.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-10 18:09:09)

Void · 2025-10-12 12:12:31

I like this video from Isaac Arthur quite a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FQxpIqciz0
Quote:

The Dyson Sphere Economy - Mega Structures, Mega Markets, and Mega-Wealth

I would think that at first most structure built to the orbits, would be in the form of a sort of disc like Saturn's rings.

Some thickness to the disc, but largely close to the orbits of most of the planets.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-10-13 09:19:32

Isaac Arthurs stuff again, a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLNrYwx0th0
Quote:

The Cloud Above the Clouds: How Space Data Centers Could Power the Next Great Industry
Isaac Arthur
824K subscribers

I have wanted to integrate data centers into "Habitable Radiators" or Biocompatible Heat Engines, but I don't know if that is going to be a practical pathway for orbital data centers. I guess we may find out.

It is said that some asteroids are more attainable than the Moon, so I wonder if by some means those materials could make a contribution?

Ending Pending

I asked: "Are some asteroids easier to reach than the Moon?"
Quote:

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Yes
Yes, some asteroids are indeed easier to reach than the Moon. Asteroids that are Near Earth Asteroids (NEAs) can be accessed with less fuel and less time than a mission to the Moon. These NEAs have a delta-V requirement below 6 km/s, making them accessible for unmanned missions. The most accessible NEA is 2000 SG344, which has a delta-V requirement below 3.6 km/s for a 150-day transfer. This makes it easier to bring back resources from these asteroids than to bring back the same mass from the Moon.

And that is interesting to me.

I may be that Iron and Oxygen could be extracted from these and used for propulsion.
I am thinking primarily Neumann Drive and MagDrive.

But although I prefer Dry Ice mixed with iron, I think it may be possible to make Oxygen Bullets mixed with Magnetite powder to shoot out of a Mass driver.

Query: "Which asteroids are easiest to reach?"
Quote:

The easiest asteroids to reach for retrieval are those identified as Easily Retrievable Objects (ERO), which have a speed of 500 meters per second or less. These asteroids can be captured and brought back to a stable gravitational point near Earth, making them easier to retrieve.
Universe Today
Here are some examples of EROs:
2006 RH120
2010 VQ98
2007 UN12
2008 EA9
2011 UD21
These asteroids are considered to have the least delta-v requirements to reach Earth, making them more accessible for retrieval missions.
1

So, a new classification of asteroids "ERO".

Well, this is a nice list, perhaps not quite what I wanted though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a … s_to_Earth

But once set up, perhaps the Moon might work OK.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-13 10:00:45)

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