Space Habitat Networks

Calliban · 2025-09-19 06:51:51

Isaac Arthur's latest video concerns clusters of space habitats.
https://youtu.be/jEWRL-6BR0A

One great benefit of tethering large numbers of space habitats and industrial facilities together is that transportation between them can be carried out without need for propellant. That offers sustainability advantages.

Ultimately, thousands of habitats, factories and ore refining facilities, could be located within a thin metal sphere. The sphere would serve as a transportation conduit, a waste heat radiator and a means of collecting volatiles that escape from space habitats. Each facility would have its own (non-rotating) cosmic ray shield, on the underside of the metal sphere.

In deep space, spheres would also house fusion reactors, providing the individual habs with light and power.

tahanson43206 · 2025-09-19 07:19:36

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by New Mars members.

Index:

(th)

Void · 2025-09-19 08:15:54

I think you are correct Calliban. But in building these they have to be robust to be able to deal with cascading failure.

This is to say that if one house catches fire, the whole city would not burn down, because the builders wanted to build in a easy rather than a robust fashion.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-09-24 19:14:56

If you don't object Calliban I will put transplant this post to here, where I think it may have room to grow: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 25#p234525

Quote:

If necessary (th) I will remove this post. But something related to space station building has just occurred to me, and I feel it is important.
I think that this video could relate to it: Depreciation / Amortization: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:
Amortization explained
YouTube
The Finance Storyteller
153.4K views
SpaceX has recently been flying the center core of Falcon Heavy as a Falcon 9. They do this for a while until using it in a Falcon Heavy. This gets some value out of it before it is used in an expended mode. So, the cost of the center core can be divided against several reuses, prior to its final use.
It has occurred to me that this could be done for Starship as well, the 2nd stage.
We usually say that Starship could be used as reusable, OR expendable.
But as I see it now, it should be used as reusable AND expendable.
If reusability can be achieved, (I think it will), then if you can calculate how many reuses are optimal, then finally you could run it as expendable to orbit and get the maximum value out of it.
Once dedicated to expendable, it would have its flaps and motor removed, and probably it's heat shield, and it would be launched with a current estimation of 250 tons of cargo. At that point, it and its cargo could be sold to a company like VAST, to for them to convert it to space station structure.
In reality down the line the probable cargo might get up to 300 to 400 tons, I am guessing.
The ship itself can then be refurbished with the cargo materials. By a company like VAST.
Ending Pending
The ships will face depreciation from wear and tear, but also by obsolescence, where for a time new ships are likely to have better performance than old style ships. So, that will depreciate their value over time and number of flights.
Ending Pending

So, I think that there could be a used ship market. These used ships might end up in clusters in orbit or even on the Moon or other worlds.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-24 19:18:01)

Void · 2025-09-25 07:50:29

Isaac Arthur has given this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b71w0eTuck
Quote:

Orbital Foundries & Zero G Manufacturing - Building in Space
Isaac Arthur
823K subscribers

In the just prior post, the idea of retiring Starships to orbits or other worlds has been suggested.

Elsewhere I have considered a space station made of at least 4 Starships:

Here I have suggested 12 Starships assembled to provide both microgravity and synthetic gravity:

Spinning a drum like the pink ones may tend to cause gyroscopic instability, but the blue ones may stabilize it???

That is my impression. The blue is more like a torus, and the pink are more like a cylinder.

Some of my ideas are at least partly from other members.

Calliban at one point calculated the number of space habitats that could be made from Bennu.

What is the Mass of Bennu?

https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
Quote:

Approximately 85.5 million tons
The mass of Bennu is approximately 85.5 million tons (77.6 million metric

So, that is a million times the dry mass of a Starship, (More or less, approximately).

What is the orbit of Bennu?

https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
Quote:

The orbit of Bennu is characterized by the following details:
Bennu makes one orbit around the Sun approximately every 1.2 years (or 437 days).
2
Its orbital path is tilted about 5 degrees relative to Earth's orbit.
1
Bennu comes as close as 0.90 AU (about 84 million miles) and reaches as far as 1.36 AU from the Sun.
1
It makes a close approach to Earth every six years, coming within about 186,000 miles (299,000 kilometers) of our planet.
1
These characteristics highlight Bennu's unique orbital dynamics in our solar system.

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/en/ne … roid-bennu
Image Quote: OSIRIS-REx-Orbit-Diagram-10-19-20.jpg?w=680&q=10&fm=jpg

Composition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
Quote:

Water
According to Dante Lauretta,[53] OSIRIS-REx Principal Investigator, "Bennu appears to be a very water-rich target, and water is the most interesting and perhaps the most lucrative commodity that you would mine from an asteroid".[54][55]
Predicted beforehand,[56] Dante Lauretta (University of Arizona) reiterates that Bennu is water-rich- already detectable while OSIRIS-REx was still technically in approach.[57]
Preliminary spectroscopic surveys of the asteroid's surface by OSIRIS-REx confirmed magnetite and the meteorite-asteroid linkage,[58][59][60] dominated by phyllosilicates.[61][62][63] Phyllosilicates, among others, hold water.[64][65][66] Bennu's water spectra were detectable on approach,[59][67] reviewed by outside scientists,[68][44] then confirmed from orbit.[41][69][70][71]
OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 x 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[71] A separate estimate, including other forms of water storage, is 6.2 wt%.[72]
NASA and university sample facilities are preparing to secure, study, and curate the sample, predicted to be rich in water and organic compounds.[73][74][75]
The German SAL (Sample Analysis Laboratory) is preparing to receive cosmochemical water from Ryugu, Bennu, and other airless bodies.[76]
Further information: Asteroidal water and 162173 Ryugu § Water

And there are Carbon and Metals also.

So, at some point could a refilling station be established and also a process to make more structure from the materials of Bennu?

Ryugu is even bigger, but may not have as much % of water.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-25 08:29:14)

Void · 2025-09-25 09:48:19

So, if Bennu is 85,500,000 tons of mass, and 1% is water then 850,000 tons of water. (The water content may be greater than 1% though).

What about Carbon though?

https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasas … bon-water/
Quote:

5 min read
NASA’s Bennu Asteroid Sample Contains Carbon, Water

Quote:

4.5–4.7%
The asteroid Bennu is rich in carbon, with studies indicating that it contains 4.5–4.7% carbon by weight. This carbon content, along with the presence of water, suggests that Bennu may contain the building blocks of life on Earth.
NASA
+5

So, perhaps 3,847,500 tons of Carbon.

Carbon can be part of a fuel, or by itself even a solid fuel. And of course, CO can be a fuel. If you are in a solar orbit with Bennu, CO and O2 might be just fine to send a ship to Mars. Of course you would need proper propulsion methods for it.

And not I am not suggesting waiting for the before going to Mars, But later on it might be worthwhile, and Bennu might be worthwhile in itself.

Aluminum also could be a propellant but not as worthwhile as Hydrogen and Carbon of course.

We also have the possibility of electric propulsions such as mass drivers, MagDrive, and Neumann Drive.

And then there is Phobos and Deimos, which may have Carbon and maybe even hydrated minerals.

You might be able to refuel from them even if it is only Carbon and Oxygen.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-25 10:00:00)

Calliban · 2025-09-25 17:19:26

Bennu is technically easier to reach than the surface of Mars, or indeed, the moon. Its mass of 70 million tonnes, is sufficient for 20 Island One habitats and several hundred 10GWe solar power satellites. It is known to contain water, carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus, in concentrations much greater than we are likely to find anywhere on the moon. Whilst Mars is scientifically more interesting, Bennu offers better near term commercial prospects. The two goals are not mutually exclusive of course. But if I were in Musk's position, I would probably prioritise near earth asteroud settlement and mining, for the simple reason that they are more likely to offer a return on investment in a reasonable window of time. For space settlement to be sustainable, it needs to pay. The biggest hurdle that space colonisation faces is developing a business case for it.

Void · 2025-09-26 14:51:24

Thanks Calliban.

I am very excited. If we could develop the tools to work with this material, then there may be so many other opportunities. We need proper tools.

And this may very well eventually fit into a reality where we seek establishment on Mars and Luna and other places.

You have offered tools with some prospect of profit. I have learned from such.

For the moment I am going to go just a bit frivolous, please excuse. Humor is often the laxative of the sphincter of wisdom. Or not. It depends how much freedom we have before the fuddy-duddies mess the progression up. In that case dumb is more likely than wise.

There is a wiki for plungers, my goodness I have to find a way to give them some support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunger
Image Quote:

Now a rather simple tool, a plunger on a robotic arm, and impart to its plunger essence cling factors to make particles of a rubble asteroid hug to it.

We can try magnetics, static electrics, and what the lizards that walk on Walls do, Van ???

Anyway, then you can put the plunger into a centrifugal device and spin it until it's Klingons are spun off.

I think I already have better tools than that, but the point is we could get to a point where we could have a "drum" of Bennu Stuff that we coudl treat with pyrolysis. Several things could be achieved with this.

Anyway, if we get the tools to process fuzzball asteroids and can find a way to keep humans and robots functional multiyear beyond Earth, we might really burn rubber, so to speak.

Recently it has been said that the asteroid belt itself has many tiny asteroids.

https://eaps.mit.edu/news-impact/mit-as … main-belt/
Quote:

MIT astronomers find the smallest asteroids ever detected in the main belt
Illustration of the James Webb Space Telescope shining light on a population of small asteroids.
An artist’s illustration of NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope revealing, in the infrared, a population of small main-belt asteroids. Image credit: Ella Maru and Julien de Wit
Jennifer Chu | MIT News • December 09, 2024
Categories: Planets, Research

What if some of them are like Bennu?

I have read that 40% of the inner belt is Carbonaceous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Quote:

whereas only 40% of asteroids at 2 au (300 million km; 190 million mi) from the Sun are C-type.[2] The proportion of C-types may actually be greater than this, since C-types are much darker (and hence less detectable) than most other asteroid types, except for D-types and others that lie mostly at the extreme outer edge of the asteroid

And similar methods may access the raw materials of Phobos and Deimos, even if they do not as much offer water and Carbon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-26 15:24:31)

Void · 2025-09-27 06:32:47

Here again is this resource: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
This one in particular is very good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOUHUxVU04s

The methods for the Moon may avoid Carbon, but for Bennu Carbon may be a very useful asset.

You have mentioned the sort of fish jaws grabber and a ring to hold it on.

I have suggested a Lasso: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasso
If an asteroid like Bennu has any big chunks inside of it might be possible to put a loop around a big one, and so get an anchor.

Mortar and Pistil is classic geometric Asymetrix symmetry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_and_pestle
Image Quote:

Quite often there is an inni working with an outi.

For Bennu, we might consider a honey applicator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_dipper
Image Quote:

This is an "Outie-Thingy". I hope to work with sticky forces to adhere powders and small stones to it in microgravity. Magnetics and Electrostatics might work. Also perhaps some other things like gecko feet.

I want an "Inni-Thingy" to spin to accept things from the "Outi-Thingy", The Outie-Thingy maybe sticky but if we spin in inside of a spinning bucket, we may accumulate materials into the centrifuge, where we might then further process the materials.

That is a good start.

If it has occurred to you that I am speaking in a manna adjacent to a concept of a male and female pairing, of course I am. That can be done scientifically.

Non-Science people have decided for you that Priests, Feminists, and Pornographers can determine what is and is not profane in that relm.

But all of them have a sex for power and money drive, and you should discipline all of them for intruding into your personal spaces and causing the human race to become unsuccessful in breeding. They have essentially bled the life force out of the human race so that they can rule, and extract money and power for the application of perversions.

Tell them that you are interested in science and what makes reality work properly. And do punish them if you can for perverting our world.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-27 06:53:39)

Void · 2025-09-27 14:23:38

So, things desired to work with rubble asteroids with water and Carbon are;
1) Hard Anchor point. (I hope Lasso methods may provide this).
2) Means to maintain human health near the asteroids long term, years. (I think a space station built of many Starships might do to start).
3) Means to collect asteroid materials into a centrifuge.
4) Means to process the collected materials, perhaps involving methods of pyrolysis.

Now, this is just a simple try:

From the just prior post I hope to collect small rubble to the applicator: For Bennu, we might consider a honey applicator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_dipper
Image Quote:

If we imagine it on a robot arm, and then applied to the asteroid surface we might try magnetics and especially electrostatics to accumulate materials. Then the Applicator is put into the door and spun to shake the materials into the dual drum centrifuge.

I would like to consider if electrostatics might be able to be of assistance as in waste recycling: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … 62660-9_11
Quote:

Recycling of Waste into Useful Materials and Their Energy Applications
Chapter
First Online: 16 January 2025
pp 251–296
Cite this chapter

Quote:

Using electrostatics to recycle waste materials
Electrostatics play a crucial role in the recycling process by separating waste materials based on their electrical properties. This method is particularly effective for plastics, which can be sorted using electrostatic emitters that apply a high voltage to the waste materials. The separation process involves the application of electrostatic charge to the recyclable materials, allowing them to be collected according to their electrical properties. This technique is advantageous as it is relatively easy to implement compared to other recycling methods and helps in the proper disposal of waste materials, reducing environmental impact.
Springer

I believe that they use triboelectric forces somehow. I am not learned enough on that yet.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 24-00903-9
Quote:

using triboelectric energy to sort garbage
The integration of triboelectric nanogenerators (TENGs) into waste sorting processes offers a sustainable and efficient solution for managing waste. TENGs can be used to sort and recycle various types of waste, including plastic, electronic, medical, household, and biowaste. This technology allows for the direct utilization of waste materials, reducing the need for modification and minimizing the production of harmful gases. The electrical energy generated by TENGs can be used to power portable electronic devices, making it a versatile and environmentally friendly energy source.
Springer

I could hope that something like this may work:

The hope is to get materials to stick to the then stick it into the door of the spinning drum assembly and then spin the Applicator to make the materials dislodge and then enter into the drums.

The drums filled up then a door closed, and the drum assembly deployed to a processing situation which might involve Carbon or Hydrogen Pyrolysis.

This is not at all a finished process, rather it is steps in a good direction, I hope.

We will hope to get fuels and eventually Oxygen from this and also to magnitize more of the Iron content to be helpful in extraction of Iron.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-27 14:58:25)

Void · 2025-09-27 16:38:46

To review again from post #9:

Here again is this resource: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
This one in particular is very good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOUHUxVU04s
The methods for the Moon may avoid Carbon, but for Bennu Carbon may be a very useful asset.

And they seem to have several other very interesting methods under consideration to take apart regolith into useful components.

Carbon is Easy, but Hydrogen apparently is accumulative, where the more regolith you treat very likely the more Hydrogen you will accumulate. And Helium 3 may be a bonus.

So, it we can master this game with small rubble asteroids, I feel we can expand though the small bodies of the solar system including the main belts and also the Trojan and Greeks.

This would be quite an accomplishment.

If SpaceX can get to building 1000 Starships a year and them maybe 10x or 100x that, we might have quite a different solar system with humans and their robots all over the place.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-27 16:41:08)

Void · 2025-09-28 09:58:12

We could try a lasso with a tether. A loop around the asteroid, can be helpful, particularly if there are large chunks that it might get looped around.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=The%20dim … orm=IPRV10

Dimensions Quote:

The dimensions of Bennu (101955 Bennu) are as follows:
Mean Diameter: Approximately 490 to 500 meters (1,610 to 1,640 feet).
3
Mass: Estimated at about 74 million tons.
1
Orbital Period: Approximately 436.6 days.
1
Rotation Period: Completes a rotation on its axis every 4.30 hours.
1
Bennu is a carbonaceous asteroid in the Apollo group and is of significant interest due to its potential impact risk with Earth.

4 Sources

But there can be other tools.

A Starship with a Dipstick: So, if it had a dip stick, how far could it poke into Bennu? Radar and temperatures?

How about a "Mole on a Pole"? A battery powered mole might be poked in and might move about. Perhaps it would be on a tether so it could be pulled out.

Or perhaps a robotic fishy could be swishy.

Knowing the internal anatomy perhaps rock anchors could be deployed.

I may do a prolonged pause here for a bit.....Continued in next post;

Last edited by Void (2025-09-28 14:27:42)

Void · 2025-09-28 14:28:28

Could Bennu be made into a spaceship over time? Not a fast mover though.

For instance, could you embed Starships into it's regolith?

At the beginning you could have microgravity inside of Bennu, and synthetic gravity stations nearby.

This has been considered: https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ci … Osadciw%29
Image Quote:

I am thinking girdles though: https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/a … nnu/facts/
Quote:

Orbit and Rotation
Bennu makes one orbit around the Sun every 1.2 years. It makes one full rotation on its axis every 4.3 hours. Bennu makes a close approach to Earth every six years, coming within about 186,000 miles (299,000 kilometers) of our planet. Its orbital path is tilted about 5 degrees relative to Earth’s.
The asteroid’s equator is tilted by about 175 degrees, so its north pole is pointing “down” relative to Earth’s north pole. By comparison, Earth’s tilt is 23 degrees, which accounts for the seasonal changes we see on our planet.

I think that means that the axis is relatively non-seasonal in nature. That the equator is relatively pointed to the plane of the solar system.

This is a simplistic plan, but is a starting point after just basic Starship Stations:

So, both girdle and gravity might redirect the "Flab" of Bennu, to suit human needs. And over time this shape would evolve while the raw materials are consumed.

As a spaceship its path to take is to avoid undesirable collisions, with Earth and other objects, and perhaps to capture itself as a moon to a more major stony asteroid to begin to process.

I have read that their may be ~40 to 50 asteroids perhaps similar to Bennu. Ryugu is also one of them I presume.

I think that this could be beneficial to the human race, and might be a prelude to working with objects the size of Deimos and Phobos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-28 15:02:34)

Void · 2025-09-28 19:31:33

In post #7 Calliban provided very useful information, Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,188
Email
Bennu is technically easier to reach than the surface of Mars, or indeed, the moon. Its mass of 70 million tonnes, is sufficient for 20 Island One habitats and several hundred 10GWe solar power satellites. It is known to contain water, carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus, in concentrations much greater than we are likely to find anywhere on the moon. Whilst Mars is scientifically more interesting, Bennu offers better near term commercial prospects. The two goals are not mutually exclusive of course. But if I were in Musk's position, I would probably prioritise near earth asteroud settlement and mining, for the simple reason that they are more likely to offer a return on investment in a reasonable window of time. For space settlement to be sustainable, it needs to pay. The biggest hurdle that space colonisation faces is developing a business case for it.

It is very difficult for me to grasp just how much materials there are in an object like Bennu, so I will give some representation of what I think Calliban was indicating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere
Quote:

O'Neill versions
Island One
Example layout for an Island One-type Bernal sphere
In a series of studies held at Stanford University in 1975 and 1976 with the purpose of speculating on designs for future space colonies, Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill proposed Island One, a modified Bernal sphere with a diameter of only 500 m (1,600 ft) rotating at 1.9 RPM to produce a full Earth artificial gravity at the sphere's equator. The result would be an interior landscape that would resemble a large valley running all the way around the equator of the sphere. Island One would be capable of providing living and recreation space for a population of approximately 10,000 people, with a "Crystal Palace" habitat (consisting of several rings attached to the sphere at each pole) used for agriculture. Sunlight was to be provided to the interior of the sphere using external mirrors to direct it in through large windows near the poles. The form of a sphere was chosen for its optimum ability to contain air pressure and its optimum mass-efficiency at providing radiation shielding.[2]
I

Image Quote:

There are several likely means of propulsion.

Flyby's of planets such as Venus and Mars could eventually be involved.

But prior to that expulsion of mass by MagDrive, Neumann Drive or a Mass Driver system could move it from being a danger to Earth to an joining to another asteroid.

As a target for Starship centered expeditions, it would not require heat shields, and could provide Metha Lox propellants for the Starships to return to Earth/Moon or to proceed to another destination.

A list of near-Earth Asteroids, there are many of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a … s_to_Earth

Even some stony asteroids may have some water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
Quote:

(25143) Itokawa
Water has been found in samples retrieved by the Hayabusa 1 mission. Despite being an S-type near-Earth asteroid, assumed dry, Itokawa is hypothesized to have been "a water-rich asteroid" before its disruption event. This remaining hydration is likely asteroidal, not terrestrial contamination. The water shows isotopic levels similar to carbonaceous chondrite water,[111] and the sample canister was sealed with double O-rings.[112][113

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa
Image Quote: ]
Image Quote:
Quote:

animated orbits of Itokawa (green) and Earth (blue) around the Sun.

So, I think the red is Mars. It looks like Itokawa almost touches the inner asteroid belt.

If Itokawa lacks things like Carbon, Bennu could provide it. And it is likely that the inner asteroid belt has more objects like Bennu.

So, you see dedication of 1000 Starships to asteroid projects may not be nearly as silly as a first look may indicate.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-28 20:08:39)

Void · 2025-09-30 08:41:15

My interest in rubble asteroids, is expanding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubble_pile
Quote:

In astronomy, a rubble pile is a celestial body that consists of numerous pieces of debris that have coalesced under the influence of gravity. Rubble piles have low density because there are large cavities between the various chunks that make them up.
The asteroids Bennu and Ryugu have a measured bulk density which suggests that their internal structure is a rubble pile.[1][2] Many comets and most smaller minor planets (<10 km in diameter) are thought to be composed of coalesced rubble.[3][4]

Itokawa, Ryugu, and Bennu are listed. But the moons Deimos and Phobos are thought to be similar.

My suspicion of the nature of these is fine homogenous materials on the surface, and large chunks that might be diverse in nature in the middle.

The object will have a hill sphere, even Bennu as a spacecraft was orbited around it.
https://atlasof.space/bennu
Quote:

The OSIRIS-REx spacecraft
The OSIRIS-REx spacecraft orbited Bennu from December 2018 to May 2021, mapping its surface in detail and successfully collecting a sample from the Nightingale crater site before beginning its return journey to Earth. This mission was crucial in understanding the origins and evolution of the asteroid Bennu, which is a near-Earth asteroid with a dark, boulder-strewn surface. The spacecraft's orbiter provided valuable data on the asteroid's composition and history, contributing to our knowledge of the solar system's early history.
atlasof.space

But there should be a gravitational "Null" at the center of any world, I think:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … nts-like-i
Quote:

Gravitational force is effectively zero
At the center of the Earth, the gravitational force is effectively zero due to the symmetrical distribution of mass, which results in equal gravitational pulls from all directions that cancel each other out. The gravitational force becomes undefined when the distance d equals zero, but this does not imply infinite gravity; rather, it indicates that gravitational force is null at the center. As one approaches the center, only the mass within the radius affects gravitational force, with exterior mass canceling out. The gravitational field is zero at the center, confirming that no net gravitational force acts on an object there.
Stack Exchange

So, I am expecting "Void" spaces in the area of the "Null" of a rubble world. (And no, I do not expect one at the center of the Earth).

The "Void" spaces may be filled with a fluidlike plasma or even some tenuous air molecules, and possibly even with condensates, more likely Ice and not Liquids.

The Suns solar wind flowing though the porosity, there may be quieted Helium and Hydrogen as fluids. Definitely not very dense, I expect.

The question is, where will fine particles settle? In the Null between big chunks, on the surface, or somewhere between the surface and the "Null"?

I suspect that this might be possible. Tides over time may cause the big chunks to settle inward, and that the fines being more mobile, to be strongest attracted to the sphere or maximum gravitation which will surround the null but be below the surface. I have shown it as "Red".

The above is a poor representation at best, but may be somewhat close to reality I suspect.

Depending on the size of a world of this type, Bennu vs. Phobos, results may be different.

But if this is at all true than it may be possible to burrow inside and inflate balloons, to fill and expand void spaces.

And it may be possible to do a shell around such a world, to help retain its surface materials from being splashed away by human activity.

So, I could suggest some modifications:

In the case of Bennu, we know it has water, Carbon, and a bit of Nitrogen.

In the case of Demos, and Phobos, those might be available, but if not then Mars could supply them.

So, although Mars itself has importance, if these methods to work with rubble piles may prove true, then we have massive numbers of tiny worlds to work with in this manner.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-30 09:34:44)

Void · 2025-09-30 09:47:59

Continuing from the previous post, the amount of air-filled void space is expanded:

As the little world expands the box can be enlarged.

The box might have radiation protection especially in the direction from the sun.

While it may seem prudent to land all the resources for 1,000,000 humans onto Mars from Earth, could we consider manufacturing facilities on Deimos and Phobos, where many bulk items would be created, and those could be then transported down to Mars?

The speed of air braking would be reduced. Supplies from Earth/Moon could more come across with Electric Rockets.

Heat Shields might even be manufactured from the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

In the end you would have 3 worlds not just Mars, and if this can work then it would likely also work for worlds like Bennu and Ryugu.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-30 09:51:26)

Void · 2025-10-03 08:39:35

Isaac Arthur put out a video I like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJG1iTgUuG8
Quote:

After Mars - Where should humanity go next?
Isaac Arthur
823K subscribers

Near Earth Asteroids as #1:
I agree that NEA/NEO asteroids, especially those that have rubble pile features, can be regarded as perhaps as important as the Moon and Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and perhaps the next thing after the Moon and Mars.

I was surprised at his other candidates, but perhaps they do make sense.

Pause............

Although he mentions that work with Near Earth Asteroids could develop technology for the main belts and Trojans and Greeks, he mentions Venus as #2, in the atmosphere. I guess if NEAs can supply some of desired materials it may be reasonable to go in this direction.

Mercury as #3, was a surprise to me. But it does have lots of Carbon and metals, and we think ice at the poles.
Synthetic gravity on Mercury would be easier than for worlds with atmospheres, he says.

#4: Lagrange points and Earth Orbits. This can be Lagrange points around the solar system.
L1 for Venus to shade the planet?
Jupiter's Trojans and Greeks.

#5 Four major moons of Jupiter.

#6 Titan.

#7 Main Asteroid Belt.

#8 Comets and Kuiper Belt objects.

I am in strong agreement with Near Earth Asteorids.

Mercury surprised me, but does have a massive potential, I think. Maybe better than Mars, but much harder to developed.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-03 09:43:18)

Void · 2025-10-03 10:59:19

Because of Callibans post elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 61#p234661

I made an attempt to formulate how to have a biocompatible heat engine in space:

I think this might be approaching value for utility.

Thanks Calliban.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-03 11:01:28)

Void · 2025-10-03 11:27:04

In the previous post I introduced this:

I made an attempt to formulate how to have a biocompatible heat engine in space:

If a Biocompatible Heat Engine can be created, then I see the orbits of Mars/Phobos/Deimos as being an early place to attempt to create one.

I expect that for the most part things like Hydrogen and Nitrogen would need to come from Mars itself, unless the moons have water of some sort.

Phobos and Deimos, would supply most of the other materials.

And various versions of this might be possible many other locations in the solar system such as perhaps Bennu and Ryugu.

Ending Pending

Although not mandated, I imagine that the cylinder walls will have a sufficient body of water inside of them to give sufficient radiation shielding. Generally, soil would not be used, as the water is to also be cooled and to store the cold to use in the heat engine.

If humans were in this, they would likely be on platforms on stilts, or boats.

Aquatic vegetation would be more normal but land plants might also be in place.

Technically a platform on stilts of a boat could have addition radiation protection. So, the water would not have to provide full protection. In solar storms then of course, you would retreat to these radiation refuges.

This would allow people to move about in a boat and be well protected but access most locations inside of the cylinder walls.

Ending Pending

Such devices might also host data centers. And might beam power with lasers or microwaves to other locations.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-03 11:40:27)

Void · 2025-10-03 13:09:35

In post #18 I introduced this:

I made an attempt to formulate how to have a biocompatible heat engine in space:

I want to elaborate a bit more.

The outer walls of the cylinder would have Aluminum fins to radiate heat. I desire also that the fins will be in parallel chevron shape to help with impactors as a danger of puncture.

https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures- … on-pattern
Image Quote:

Where Calliban will seek perhaps 30 degrees C as heating from waste heat is desirable, I would prefer to go lower, perhaps 10, 15, 20 degrees C. This would allow for a bit more power generation, I believe.

Where in Calibans presentation 60-100 degrees C might be for the hot side, I think higher would be available in this machine. After all the concentration of solar energy should allow higher temperatures.

The solar collector pigments could reflect more the wavelengths of light that Photosynthesis would use, but absorb those wavelengths that are not suitable for photosynthesis.

The window though which the focused light would pass will need to be rather strong, to put up with the concentrated light which might shock the materials.

The interior pressure could be acceptable for humans, say 1/3 to 2/3 bar, which would be a reduced differential pressure.

But technically you could reduce it much lower than 1/3 bar, if you will not have shirt sleeve humans in it.

This calculator might be used to make a estimate: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

At 20 degrees C, 0.0233 Bar or a bit higher pressure could hold the "Cold" water as a liquid. That is 23.3 millibars I believe.

So, you might be able to grow some sort of photo-microbe in that. Of course, then as cooling water, organic matter is likely to gum up the heat engine parts, so it is not to be quite that easy.

But doing this you could grow biomass and generate electricity.

You could have a pressure of the Armstrong Limit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_limit
Quote:

About 0.0618 atmospheres
The Armstrong limit is the altitude above which atmospheric pressure is so low that water boils at the normal temperature of the human body, which is 37 °C (99 °F). This phenomenon occurs at an altitude of approximately 60,000 to 62,000 feet (18,900 to 19,350 meters) above sea level. At this altitude, exposed body fluids such as saliva, tears, and the liquids wetting the alveoli within the lungs will boil away without a pressure suit, and no amount of breathable oxygen will sustain life for more than a few minutes. The pressure at this altitude is about 0.0618 atmospheres (6.3 kPa, 47 mmHg), which is one-sixteenth of the standard sea-level atmospheric pressure of 101.3 kilopascals (760 mmHg).
Wikipedia
+5

So, 1/16th Bar???

You would need a pressure suit, and if it leaked, then you would need attention. Assistance, but you could dive to the bottom of the water and get a bit more pressurization. Depends on the height of the water column, and the g forces of the spin gravity method.

It would be adult level work.

I recall Robert Dyck indicated that 1/10 bar is a limiting factor for at least most vascular plants on land.

But if you had 63 millibar pressure of air inside the enclosure, then water column might give you the extra 36 millibars, so some aquatic plants might make it in that environment.

I am just looking at minimizing the differential pressure on the window(s) where the light might shine though. You might very well grow vascular aquatic plants that way, or large type algae as well. (Maybe).

I would anticipate using an aquatic robot to manage the water environments. It might also be equipped to plug a leak is water is detected leaking out into space.

* Then ends of the cylinder would need appropriate radiation shielding of course, bags or tanks of water, or solid materials.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-03 13:40:24)

Void · 2025-10-03 18:58:38

One reason I have gone into the idea of "Habitable Heat Engines", is that for orbits of Mars, the capacity to grow things with photosynthesis might be useful.

If you were to conduct pyrolysis of the materials of Phobos or Deimos using Carbon or Hydrogen, the results should be some mix of H20 and CO2. Then if you put that into a greenhouse, that can be converted to Oxygen and Organic Matter. Organic Matter then can be mixed with more regolith from Phobos and Deimos, and around you can go again.

I understand that you could use electrolysis to produce O2, CO and then make Methane by various processes, but with this machine, you can take this other route, and have places where humans might dwell as well.

The solar energy for the process is better in orbit than on the surface of Mars, but then if you are in orbit where will you house the processor, the robots, and the humans? How will you feed the humans.

The drawings I have provided suggest possibility but I do not think that they are yet proven or perfected.

I think that probably the hot side will end up being much hotter than 100 degrees C. But some care will be needed to have tricks that do not cause heat to migrate to the cooling water by way of Infared Radiation.

I do show a glaze over the hot side metal drum which will need a pigment set that mostly only reflects the light that plants want.

As I understand it that is some of the red and some of the blue and not the UV or Green or far Infared. The desire would be to block those from reflecting from the boiler to the cool water.

There are 2 layers of transparency and the color scheme of the boiler surface.

The air pressure in use will have some effect as the closer to a vacuum you get, the less heat is transferred by convection.

While higher pressure versions could be nice for people, lower pressure ones may be more productive and easier to keep inflated. Differential pressure on windows would be less.

It is a fairly tall order, but maybe it can be done reasonably well.

Pressures less than 1/3 bar would have very little Nitrogen, but for humans a 2/3 bar pressure would need some Nitrogen or maybe Argon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-03 19:14:26)

Void · 2025-10-04 10:32:37

I have modified the diagram for the "Biocompatible Heat Engine":

I have added the "Cone Window" which surrounds the light cone.

If it were substantial enough, then a high temperature entrance window, (From the mirrored light source), might not be needed.

For lower pressure situations this might be desirable. Cyanobacteria might do OK with just 50 millibars pressure, so the cone window might be a plastic film. A method might be required to prevent the air pressure in the bio section from squeezing the cone window into the light cone area. Perhaps a metal cage that is also cone shaped.

If you could avoid freeze damage the temperature of the water could approach the freezing point of the fresh or salt water.

The cone window is to also help to keep Infared light from the boiler from entering into the biological area.

In this case it may be that the boiler temperature could be quite high. Well above 100 degrees C, maybe truly hot.

Keep in mind that this popped into my mind in a matter of a few hours of thinking.

I am hoping that over time descendant thoughts that will be more elegant, less complex, greater productive/useful, will emerge from my mind of the minds of others.

While I have in recent versions indicated synthetic gravity, it may be that for Cyanobacteria farming microgravity may be sufficient. The water needs to cling to the cylinder walls, and a means to collect the water though some modification of capillary effect would be needed.

This again could indirectly produce Oxygen for various needs, and organic matter which could be processed into various things including fuel perhaps.

It is unknown how much Carbon or Hydrogen Phobos and Deimos might hold. However, if it does have some then Carbon is more likely. In that case, processing the materials from Phobos and Deimos, may accumulate more Carbon for fuels, perhaps even Hydrogen.

The process of conducting pyrolysis on the regolith of Phobos and Deimos might produce Carbon or even Hydrogen based fuels.

A CO and O2 rocket propulsion in Mars orbit may be useful.

The processing of Phobos and Deimos regolith may generate propellants for Magdrive or Neumann Drive which are both electric.

So this may provide a refilling process in Mars orbit. That could be augmented by Hydrogen from Mars if necessary.

There are conflicting notions about the possible presence of Carbon or Hydrogen in the regolith of the moons of Mars. It is not really known where these materials came from and the amount of heating the materials experienced. The surface materials which is dusty might be different than possible large chunks of rock internal to the moons.

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/ … 65/6660653
Quote:

Phobos and Deimos surface composition: search for spectroscopic analogues Free
Giovanni Poggiali, M Matsuoka, M A Barucci, J R Brucato, P Beck, S Fornasier, A Doressoundiram, F Merlin, A Alberini
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Volume 516, Issue 1, October 2022, Pages 465–476, https://doi.org/10.1093/mnras/stac2226
Published: 10 August 2022 Article history

This one is rather optimistic about Carbon: https://scisimple.com/en/articles/2025- … s--akyeqmz Quote:

# Physics
# Earth and Planetary Astrophysics
New Insights into Phobos' Composition and Origins
Research reveals key properties of Phobos and its simulants for future exploration.
Aug 3, 2025 ― 7 min read

But even if the moons of Mars have no Carbon or Hydrated Minerals, Methane manufactured on the surface of Mars, could be lifted by spacecraft, in order to conduct pyrolysis on regolith of the Mars moons.

Products then relatively easily produced then would be Oxygen, and Iron, and Slag blocks.

Here is a good resource for space processing of regolith: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism

This one deals with pyrolysis of Moon regolith, but the techniques could be used for Phobos and Deimos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOUHUxVU04s
Quote:

Refining Moon Regolith With Lasers (Part 1)
ANTHROFUTURISM
31.6K subscribers

They deal with pyrolysis using Carbon and pyrolysis using Hydrogen, and then pyrolysis using lasers.

In the case of the regolith of Phobos and Deimos, we may first hope to extract Iron and Oxygen.
But if they are sufficiently available, we may hope to recover Carbon and maybe even Hydrogen.

If we want to leave it at that then we can treat the remainder as slag and make blocks of materials out of it. Then build large structures in the orbit of Mars.

It is likely that we could get more metals out of the regolith, but getting Iron, Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, and slag blocks would be very valuable in Mar orbits.

In the future, electric rockets could bring bulk materials from Earth/Moon to Mars orbits. But then Starships might bring it down to the surface of Mars in some cases.

While I have been promoting a biological path to process, indeed electrolysis of CO2 and H20 could be used. But as I have said, habitat for humans might be desired in orbit.

Iron and Carbon can be used in Neumann Drive, and Iron can be used in Magdrive. (I don't know if Magdrive can use Carbon).

So, it might not be out of the question to move things from Mars Orbits to the Earth/Mars.

A multi-step shipping process of Earth/Moon>Mars Orbits>Mars Surface, allows for a less rugged heat shield for the Starships at Mars, as the speeds from low Mars orbit are less than for Earth/Moon>Mars.

And the Starships at Mars may be refilled in part from both Mars Orbits (Phobos and Demos materials), and from the surface of Mars.

After SpaceX may do initial landings on Mars, I promote the idea of setting up orbital facilities around Mars, to process regolith from Phobos and Deimos.

Ending Pending

Isaac Arthur has this video also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1eVwQTxYu0
Quote:

Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining
Isaac Arthur

These ideas also may be transferable to Phobos and Deimos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-04 12:47:33)

Void · 2025-10-05 10:48:38

Here I have changed the idea of a biocompatible heat engine a bit:

The "Light Splitting Window" allows more of the spectrum of the sunlight to impinge on the cone shaped "Boiler".

The window is a cylinder that will experience "Compression" as the "Outside" of the cylinder window is interior to the pressurized space, and the inside of the cylinder window is exposed to the "Greater Partial Vacuum" of the space environment.

The light is expected to come from a optical system of mirrors, or perhaps lenses, not shown in the drawing.

The window could be of two layers. A compressible layer of transparent ceramic/glass/Silica?, with a transparent film wrapped around it.

As this is a "Compression Window", the differential pressure does not threaten to push the window out of its window frame, but actually may tend to compress the joins between "Glass" panes so then more to seal it.

The window itself may get heated up so a method to extract that heat, perhaps with piping and a fluid might be desired.

The objective would be to get as much raw sunlight as is useful to heat the boiler, but to hopefully be able to reflect photons that can drive photosynthesis to be deflected/reflected into the radiator.

I have speculated that some types of extreme microbes might be able to function in a pressure as low as 10 millibars, but I do not know if that is true. I think that 50 millibars may do and certainly 100 millibars will do.

Certainly, the higher pressure used the more challenged the window will be, but the higher the life forms that could be sustained would be, up to humans perhaps.

Food for creative thought, I venture.

Ending Pending

It may be that at some point Starships might bring water and Dry Ice up from Earth or other worlds to be processed into Oxygen and Organic matter. Then the organic matter could be processed into other things, perhaps fuels.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-05 11:02:17)

Void · 2025-10-05 13:51:15

Here I have added extensions to the structure:

Separate chambers that still will act as parts of the radiator. Refuges in case the sun section becomes uninhabitable for a time.

Where I am going with this is to blend habitats/farms, with power plants.

We will intercept the output of photons from a star, and make connection to the universes drainage system for heat.

Tapping into entropy, I guess, harnessing the waterfall or perhaps say "Thermal-Fall".

Which is where everything we have to live on comes from anyway.

Ending Pending

In general, instead of moist soil as a radiation protection I just want water, and outside of the "Cans" Aluminum fins in the form of Chevron.

If people want "Dry Land" they then need stilted platforms or rafts or boats.

This will be more useful in places in the solar system where water can be produced out of smaller gravity wells.

For instance for Mars the Hydrogen might come from Mars, and the Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-05 17:58:19)

Void · 2025-10-05 18:00:25

Obviously once human activity is in proximity of ice worlds this plan could work well.

Exceptional Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

Most of these are volatile, including water bearing. Being labeled G or C or B in type. But there is some evidence now that at least some stony asteroids will have water in them in some form.

Using concentrating mirrors to provide the hot side of Biocompatible Heat Engines should be rather easy in the asteroid belt.

In the Trojans and Greeks and the moons of Jupiter, mirrors could also work, but would need to be bigger.

Going to the Saturn system mirrors should even then work but of course they have to be big. Obviously, the Saturn system will have the advantage of the resources of it's moons including Titan which would include a lot of Nitrogen.

So, if it could be made to work then an enormous amount of electrical power generation and also biological productivity.

Adding the Laser power transfer methods of this post from elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 09#p234709
A network of space propulsion pathways among these should be practical.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-05 18:17:36)

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