Debug: Database connection successful Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure? (Page 4) / Terraformation / New Mars Forums

New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations via email. Please see Recruiting Topic for additional information. Write newmarsmember[at_symbol]gmail.com.

#76 2024-11-09 11:19:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

This would be an interesting planet: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … af58&ei=14

Quote: Ateam of researchers believes they have found the most convincing evidence to date for the existence of a hidden planet, which may be Planet Nine. According to a recent study, this planet, possibly located in the Kuiper Belt, is small, with a mass between 1.5 and 3 times that of Earth. "It could be an icy, rocky Earth, or a super-Pluto. Due to its large mass, it would have a great internal energy that could sustain, for example, subsurface oceans. Its orbit would be very distant, much beyond Neptune, and much more inclined compared to the known planets," Patryk Sofia Lykawka, associate professor of Planetary Sciences at Kindai University in Japan and co-author of the study, said according to El Tiempo.

Anything would be fun, but this might be a bit of a "Super Earth".  I have been thinking of ice planets where the density of the planet may be so low that in spite of a large size the gravity on the surface might be close to that of Earth.  But of course we would have to take it as it comes.  I hope it has moons.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2024-11-09 11:22:22)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#77 2025-08-14 09:09:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

There are a few topics with the word Rogue in their name.

Here is the latest gift from Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU7h53_ … saacArthur
Quote:

Colonizing Rogue Planets

Isaac Arthur
820K subscribers

I myself have pondered these things.  One thing I have tried to imagine is what might happen if one of our planets were tossed out as a rogue planet.  Most rogues are likely born early in a planet generating process either interstellar or stellar.  But by thinking making one of our planets rogue, we at least have some anchor in that we know to some degree now what these worlds are like now.

I am going to make a case that I think that plate tectonics might emerge on the terrestrials, particularly Venus and of course it exists on Earth.

Since it already exists on Earth, then I will start with Earth cast out into the void.  I will not dwell on the fate of humans who may have come into existence on this Earth-like world, rather I will be interested in seeing what it might be like to be on the outside looking in and then to settle the world.

It is not certain how much of a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere could exist.  I will say some.  Ideally not too much.  Lets be generous and say 1 bar. 

I will then argue for uphill flowing tectonic glaciers which would be in opposition to downward flowing gravitational glaciers.

If we think of planets from type 1 Stars radioactive materials will have been distributed to the planets.  Type 3 Stars early on would not have much of that to give.

OK, the Earth it tossed out.  Its atmosphere freezes to Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon solids and liquids for the most part.

Since the Earth's atmosphere is 1 bar pressure, if it were water vapor instead of Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon, the depth would be about (very loosely), 32 feet thickness over the entire surface.  But if Hydrogen and Helium flow from the void as a replacement atmosphere, it may be that electrostatic sparks will cause burns and explosions to burn the Oxygen to water.

On Pluto, I understand that Nitrogen might flow like Toothpaste.  But we don't know if it will be as warm as Pluto is, probably over time it will get colder.

I am expecting plate tectonics to keep running on this world.  In fact perhaps even faster, as the surface will be colder so the convective forces will be greater.  So solid ices and pasty textured pseudo solids may be dragged uphill by ocean spreading.  Gravitation will encourage the solids and pasty substances to flow downhill.  So there would be a contest.

So, then this brings us to the oceans of salt water.  Along the shorelines ice would be dragged uphill as it froze to the shoreline.  But again gravity would encourage it to glaciate downhill.

We can expect that the exposed seafloor spreading such as Iceland will allow lava flows above any ice covered fluids and very likely above any glaciers.  It would be very hard for ices and fluids to flow uphill onto Iceland, as the sea floor is going to drag them away from the splits, and gravity will encourage ices and fluids to flow downhill.

So, we can expect for this modified Earth that exposed geothermal energy will be available to settlers.

The Seafloor could be more and more exposed as ice is dragged upward onto the spreading seafloor.  This would expose the geothermal spreading areas unless a fluid could cover them again.  Nitrogen or Argon might do that.  But there are limited amounts of them, and several basins might collect them and render the immobile.  Also on the spreading area of the seafloor are many seamounts, and it would be very difficult for the Nitrogen, Argon, Water Ice, or Liquid Water to flow upwards against gravity.  So, we can have hopes of exposed geothermal rock.  This should be favorable for humans or aliens to utilize for simple energy, and protection from the cold of the Universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
Image Quote: 1920px-Tectonic_plates_%282022%29.svg.png

If I am not mistaken the Samali Plate would have an elevated area in Africa which would likely be exposed geothermal rock.

But on the other side of plate tectonics where one plate slides under the other, if ices behave like continental crust, then bodies of water warmed by geothermal heat should occur.

And this also could cause vast floods of water from time to time if an earthquake were to rupture an ice dam.  So you might not want to build your settlements too low in an ocean bed as they might become suddenly flooded.  A high location in Iceland or Africa might be most suitable.

It is my expectation that the radioactive decay engine of the Earth would be periodically refueled if it were a rogue planet: https://www.space.com/earth-dense-inter … ction-lost
Quote:

An interstellar cloud may have caused an ice age on Earth. Here's how
News
By Robert Lea published June 11, 2024
An encounter with a cold cloud of gas and dust could have caused our planet's "protective giant bubble" to draw back.

So, radioactive materials from dust clouds in interstellar space may rain down fresh materials which may be subducted into the insides of the Rogue Earth, refueling it's engines.

So, a Rogue Earth, might be very useful to a technological civilization, I feel.

And of course then there if Fusion.  Probably any gasses that could remain as an atmosphere on such a world will have and collect more of fusion suitable fuels.

I will discuss Venus next I believe.  I think Venus cast out into the void would become much like a Rogue Earth.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-14 09:53:25)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#78 2025-08-15 07:15:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

So, then Venus as a rogue planet is interesting.  Some people think that Venus had an Earth-like period, but others say it had such a hot start that it never condensed a water ocean. 

The reason for a hot start was the suns gravity well, adding much more energy to impactors than it did for Earth.

I will argue that an ejected Venus might come to resemble an ejected Earth to some extent over time due to the infall of Hydrogen, and dust.  Venus eventually being similar to the description I gave in the previous post would have 90% of less gravity than Earth.  I say that because the proto-Venus might have been ejected before it reached its current mass.
So, for instance a Venus the size of Mars would have a gravity field of 33% that of Earth but our Venus would be 90% the gravity of Earth.

Elon Musk has said that the Earth is almost too massive for rocket technology to send mass into space.  So, a hotter sub-Earth sized world might be rather valuable as a Rogue Planet.

We don't know for sure what Venus was like as young.  But if ejected now, we could expect a CO2 Ocean to cover much of the planet.  That ocean would likely freeze, as I think unlike water ice CO2 ice will not float.  (I think).

And then the Nitrogen would similarly condense and pool before freezing.

It is not known for sure if Venus has tectonic activity at this time.  This article suggest that it might.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-mag … -on-venus/

It is my expectation that when the cold of the universe cools off the crust and overlying CO2 and N2 materials, some greater convection will occur.  But any crust spreading may be under CO2 or N2 deposits or may be directly exposed uncovered rock on the surface.

Over time it is expected that Hydrogen, Helium, and dust will accumulate from clouds that the Rogue Venus might drift though.  I would expect the Hydrogen to permeate into the CO2 layer and over time react with it to produce water and hydrocarbons.  So, the crust would eventually become lubricated by the liquids produced that way.  This would help plate tectonics to continue.  The radioactive materials in the accumulating dust would be subducted into the interior to help keep Venus warm inside.

I believe that it thought by some that planets the size of Mars or larger could become Steppenwolf planets.  So, Venus might begin to accumulate a Hydrogen and Helium atmosphere.

Some have even argued that such a world could host seas of water even maybe open water, as a think Hydrogen atmosphere might allow the geothermal heat to be held in.

In that case I would expect that the N2 would reinflate under the Hydrogen layer.  Then what about the CO2?

I think a rogue that warm would be a problem for humans as the atmospheric pressure would be too high.  But it would be relatively easy to expel much of the H2 with nuclear bombs in the upper atmosphere, I think.  But it would be better to catch a Rogue Venus before it developed such a thick atmosphere.  But an atmosphere of 1/4 to 10 bars might be useful and relatively easy to adapt to.  Of course you would still need protective devices.  At heavier pressures you might need submarine shells, and perhaps at times use Helium instead of N2 as the dilutant.

Obviously, a thin atmosphere would make it easier to use a rocket to go to orbit, and a thicker atmosphere would make landing easier.

So, it might be that a Rogue Venus with 50% gravity might be quite a find, if it had exposed rock of geothermal potential.

Ending Pending smile


I suppose I will look at Mars and Mercury next.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-15 07:45:49)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#79 2025-08-16 07:30:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Now about worlds that are thought to be just large enough to perhaps become Steppenwolf planets, that might be Mars and Mercury, if ejected into space, could they collect a significant atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium?

Ceres and most dwarf planets seem like they could not hold a atmosphere very well even in the spaces between stars.  But I don't know that for sure.

Mars may still have geothermal hot spots that could be accessed.  We are not aware that that is currently true on Mercury, but their gravity field are about 1/3rd that of Earth.

A world that is stratified, might conserve its heat, and not be able to collect radioactive dust from the universe and deliver it to its lower regions.

To have convection you need a gravity field, and also a mix of materials that will not stratify.  If you don't have convection, then it is harder to see how ocean floor spreading hot spots can exist or those that are caused by plates diving under each other.  But Hawaii on Earth does suggest something like a pimple as a method to erupt excess heat to the surface.  Also, cryovolcanic, eruptions might be able to move heat to the surface.

It looks possible that Mars and Mercury need gravity, internal heat, and the proper mix of materials to foster convection.

On average Mercury has heavier materials than Earth, and Mars has lighter materials than Earth.  At least that is my current notion of truth.

I presume that as was said to be the case of the Moon, first lavas were heavy, but over time the heavy materials condensed into crust and mantle, I guess, and the final lavas were of lighter materials.

In order for lavas to erupt to the surface, solid crust needs to fall, squeezing the lighter fluids up.  Being lighter fluids, is due to type of materials and level of heating.

I suppose Ceres would not be likely to erupt to the surface with water, as water ice is lighter even than liquid water.

And an ejected Ceres would likely not have lost as much water if they got ejected early on their formation.

But so, water/ammonia eruptions might be useful with a rogue Ceres.  Such an ocean of sea might allow access to core materials.

But Ceres is not thought to be large enough to collect a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere.

I guess next I will think about Ice Giants, Gas Giants, and Brown Dwarfs, and their Satellites.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-16 07:51:12)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#80 2025-08-16 09:11:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

This video states that if Earth were 10% heavier, then reusable would be impossible.
It also says that if Earth were 10% lighter, then reusable would be easy. 

So, a Rogue 10% less than the mass of Earth would be a prize.

Smaller than that would be valuable also, but of course in my view, I want there to be geothermal energy available.

SpaceX Starship Expendable Mode SHOCKED Engineers: 250 Tons, Zero Recovery!
YouTube
Space Core
1 views


SpaceX Starship Expendable Mode SHOCKED Engineers: 250 Tons, Zero Recovery!
YouTube
Space Core
1 views

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-16 09:13:10)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#81 2025-08-17 17:46:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

A Rogue Ice or Gas giant detected: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1JAZz3  Quote:

Einstein’s Theory Helps Astronomers Spot Mysterious Free-Floating Planet Using Hubble
Story by Lydia Amazouz • 2w •
4 min read

So, we have gone from not being able to detect rogues, to maybe once in a while detecting them.

I am wondering if it might eventually be possible to see a "Pinch" in the background radiation field from the Big Bang?

Certainly we don't have that yet, but I might think that if we could detect such "Pinches", eventually we might see them tracing a path across the view.

A closer rogue might be easier to see, I am guessing.  But of course a rogue might be putting out Infared light, so maybe it is yet impossible.

Still it does not hurt to try.  When you fail, sometimes that points to other possibilites.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-17 17:50:54)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#82 2025-08-18 15:28:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

I suppose that if you had a Rogue Mars, you might not need Plate Tectonics to access geothermal power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHCAF5 … =SpaceSnap
Quote:

Mars Volcanoes Are More Dangerous Than We Thought!

SpaceSnap
14 subscribers

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-18 15:29:26)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#83 2025-08-19 12:58:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

A possible fire fighting method I have tried to arrive at would be to push Oxygen depleted air into a building to suppress the fire.

That would not be easy, though, as CO is a poison so using combustion to reduce O2 might be best done by burning Hydrogen.  But Hydrogen is hard to handle and the "Burned Air" would be heated a bit, unless you could cool it with a water stream.

Ending Pending smile


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#84 2025-08-20 02:52:24

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Oxygen depletion systems have been around for a while.  They are usualy used as fire preventative measures and have been popular in libraries storing important texts.  They work by reducing the partial pressure of oxygen in a space and replacing it with additional nitrogen.  A reduction in oxygen partial pressure from 210 to 150-180mbar, doesn't sound like much.  But it makes fire ignition less likely and impedes fire growth if one does start.  Human habitation of the space remains possible, assuming one does not wish to engage in high performance exercise.  These solutions are a bit niche on Earth, due to cost, energy consumption and the need for buildings to be well sealed to maintain atmospheric control.

Nitrogen or CO2 drench on the other hand, is a reactive firefighting system.  I have seen it used on ships and submarines.  It can be problematic if a compartment is not sealed because it will displace oxygen leaving trapped crew with nothing to breath.  In a sealed compartment it is quite safe, because oxygen partial pressure does not decrease, but the nitrogen adds heat capacity to the air reducing flame temperature.

Both options are useful in space / lunar / mars habitats.  In these cases, the air volume is fixed and such a system has lower risk of asphyxiation.  Oxygen depletion can be used as well.  But the problem here is that we already plan to use <1bar atmosphere.  So it will be difficult to deplete oxygen without reducing oxygen partial pressure unacceptably.  Putting in a few percent of heavier gas like a fluorocarbon, which has high volumetric heat capacity, may be a better way of suppressing fire.  Cost may turn out to be an issue here.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#85 2025-08-20 08:25:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

That is useful information Calliban.  It is a hard nut to crack, I have been thinking about it off and on for a long time.

A best guess on possibility is a tank of liquid air with perhaps 18% Oxygen, and then if you could cause that to burn with a fuel, such as Methane.  But there would be thermal problems possible and poisoning from CO and CO2 would be major concerns.

A 4% CO2 is considered to be immediately lethal.  But maybe a lesser exposure could be a preference to dying in a fire.  If humans are not involved, then it would not be a big concern.

I am thinking of Stairwells in tall buildings and perhaps for homes some chance of suppressing a fire.  But as you have mentioned the nature of the structure will make results variable or not possible.

For the stairwell, I am thinking of something like a jet engine running on the depleted air, using Methane fuel.  But if you could use Hydrogen, that would be much better as to eliminate the Carbon compounds.

For Mars, I am imagining plastic envelops to contain somewhat depleted air inside of ice tunnels and vaults.  It should be possible to make plastics largely from water from ice and from CO2 in the atmosphere.

I am thinking of maybe 16% Oxygen, and then humans will need to have a additional source of Oxygen perhaps from an Oxygen Concentrator.  I hope that vast volumes of such tunnels and vaults could be created, but I do not want a runaway fire possibility.

As I understand it 16% is temporarily survivable.  But humans more often would be in other chambers with greater amounts of Oxygen.  Robots should do just fine in 16% Oxygen.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-20 08:33:46)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#86 2025-08-23 09:44:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Thinking on rogue objects, dust clouds, and Oort Clouds.

Our terminology is actually rather strange.  We call things that orbit something we call stars "Planets".
Objects that orbit planets, we call "Moons".

However, if we wanted to we might call the Universe the primary object, and Galaxies be called Secondary.

We might call things that orbit the Galaxy center Tertiary objects.  This would include Stars, Black Holes, White Dwarfs, Brown Dwarfs, and Rogue Planets.  But any of these Tertiary objects would be the Fourth level.  Earth would be Fourth Level.  Our Moon would be Fifth Level.  And any satellites of a Fifth Level object would be Sixth Level.

And I guess I don't know where to place Trojan Objects.

Really every object in the Universe is Rogue.  But we reserve Rogue for two types of objects.

1) Ejected Objects.
2) Condensed Objects smaller than a Brown Dwarf.  However, how small is the smallest brown dwarf?

As far as I can tell, vast amounts of gas, much of it Hydrogen, somehow are conducted into our galaxy.  Some larger objects can accrete it if they have enough gravity and do not shine so bright and have a solar wind that will push it away.

Stars that explode and objects that collide create dust clouds of materials cooked up in objects that have processed Hydrogen and Helium using fusion.

I think it is very hard for our sun to accrete materials such as dust from outside the solar system as sunlight and the solar wind will push it away.  It could accrete a interstellar comet or larger object, if that object collided with the sun.

But it seems that interstellar dust clouds can overcome the repulsive forces of the sun, Photons and the Solar wind, and intrude even on the Earth at times.

https://www.universetoday.com/articles/ … lar-clouds  Quote:

What Happens to the Climate When Earth Passes Through Interstellar Clouds?
By mark-thompson - September 23, 2024 at 7:29 PM UTC | Planetary Science

Quote:

A team of astronomers let by Jess A. Miller from the Department of Astronomy of Boston University have traced the path of the Sun back through time. In doing so, they have identified two occasions when the Earth and Solar System passed through two dense interstellar clouds. One of the crossings occurred 2 million years ago, the other 7 million years ago. Exploring the properties of the clouds, the team assert that the clouds are dense enough that they could compress the solar wind to inside the orbit of Earth.

The Solar Wind is a constant stream of charged particles, mostly electrons and protons that are emitted from the upper layer of the Sun's atmosphere, the corona. The particles travel through the Solar System at speeds between 400 and 800 kilometres per second. The edge of our Solar System is defined as the point where the solar wind merges with the interstellar medium.

Image Quote: newinterstellarmedium_art-1024x435.jpg

So, if this is true, then objects such as the Earth and in higher orbits of the sun from the Earth could accrete Dust and even Hydrogen and Helium, if their gravity is large enough and any magnetic field does not interfere.  (I don't know what goes on with magnetic fields in this event).

It is possible that objects equal to and larger than Mars could accrete both dust and Hydrogen, and Helium, particularly if they are further out in the colder reaches of the solar system.  If Mars collected Hydrogen and Helium, I think it would lose it quickly because of the Sun's Photons.

But in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud, objects equal to or greater than Mars in Mass might accrete both dust and gasses.  Objects smaller than Mars might accrete dust and condensed ices.

I see a possibility here that a world like Eris could accrete new radioactive fission fuels from dust clouds:
https://www.swri.org/newsroom/press-rel … rf-planets
Quote:

SwRI scientists find evidence of geothermal activity within icy dwarf planets
February 15, 2024 — A team co-led by Southwest Research Institute found evidence for hydrothermal or metamorphic activity within the icy dwarf planets Eris and Makemake, located in the Kuiper Belt. Methane detected on their surfaces has the tell-tale signs of warm or even hot geochemistry in their rocky cores, which is markedly different than the signature of methane from a comet.

Quote:

Recent studies have shown that Eris shows signs of geological activity, indicating that it may have internal geochemical processes.
Evidence of hydrothermal or metamorphic activity has been found within Eris, suggesting warm or hot geochemistry in its rocky core.
1
The James Webb Space Telescope has detected methane on Eris's surface, which is indicative of recent geological activity, challenging previous notions of these icy worlds as cold and inert.
2

So, I speculate that these worlds could periodically accrete more radioactive materials that might come from star explosions, and maybe from object collisions.

There is some thinking that Europa has plate tectonics in its ice shell: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/scientist … on-europa/  Quote:

Scientists Find Evidence of 'Diving' Tectonic Plates on Europa
Sept. 8, 2014

So, I speculate that Eris may have an ocean and ice plate tectonics, that would allow further accretions of interstellar dust to be conducted to the bottom of such an ocean, and so it speculate that such worlds may be powered by the energy compressed into radioactive substances by exploding stars.

And I suppose I might speculate that a world with an ice-covered ocean with plate tectonics might also host rock tectonics below that allowing radioactive materials to accrete into the core of the object.

https://eos.org/articles/dwarf-planets- … c-activity
Quote:

Instead, the deuterium-hydrogen ratio is a close match to that found in comet water ice. That suggests the methane on Eris and Makemake inherited its hydrogen from water in the interior, where conditions could have been hot enough for water and carbon molecules to react, forming methane.

The deuterium-hydrogen ratio doesn’t reveal when the methane reached the surface, however. But NIRSpec also measured the carbon isotopes in the methane. It found that carbon-13 was only about 1% as abundant as carbon-12. If the methane were old, the carbon-13 would be much more abundant, Glein said.

So, I think over time there have been repeated surprises when worlds are examined and expected to be very cold but show evidence of greater internal warmth.

So, now I have to ask about worlds around Brown Dwarfs and Jumbo's.  These are thought to be condensed, and not usually ejected from the domain of other stars.

Can they have planets, a Kuiper Belt, and an Oort Cloud?

Could they have planets that would be as big or bigger than Eris?  Would those worlds perhaps be able to periodically accrete dust from interstellar clouds, dust with radioactive content?

Could they support worlds with oceans and some type of tectonics?

If so, then I would call these objects "Fuzzy".  If I can presume that they have lots of comets.  They would only have radiated heat for a relatively short time to drive the snow line outward.  Perhaps they are full of comets, and Dwarf Planets, and maybe even Steppenwolf planets orbiting them.

Being "Fluffy", I would wonder about the merger of a Jumbo planets Oort Cloud (If it has one), with the Oort Cloud of our solar system.  Would this represent a sort of collision of Hill Spheres, with exchange of objects?

One view of how Triton could have been captured by Neptune is that it may have had a partner object, and that partner was either absorbed by Neptune or that partner object was cast away, allowing Neptune to capture Titan.  So, that was a sort of "Fluffy" capture.

Could a Hill Sphere capture a larger object in the event of a "Fluffy" collision, while the major object would get cast away.

For instance if a Jumbo resembling and oversized Jupiter, have a "Fluffy" interaction with our solar system and perhaps leave a moon, or take some comets, or maybe even a Dwarf Planet?

Anyway, I got that out of my head.  Perhaps I can do other things now.

Smile.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-23 10:48:48)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#87 2025-08-23 19:21:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

This is not too bad for a presentation: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

There's an Alien World Below Earth's Surface
YouTube
Astrum Earth
240.3K views

I have a copy of David Golds Book: "The Deep Hot Biosphere".
https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Hot-Biosphe … 0387985468

We think that Mars has a underground deep water world in cracks in the rocks, perhaps.
https://www.inverse.com/science/mars-hi … study-nasa
Quote:

Mars Is Likely Hiding Oceans Worth Of Water Deep In Its Crust — This Could Upend Our Plans For the Planet
Miles below the surface, cracks in volcanic rock may be full of liquid water.

by Kiona Smith
Aug. 15, 2024

So, I am guessing that any world with enough warmth of a size equal to or less than that of Mars, could have a "Crack Ocean" in its crust.

The Earth seems to have a sort of one, but the gravity squeezes the cracks shut better than Mars can, I expect.  And Tectonics might also squeeze the cracks shut in places as well.

So, that makes suspicious Mercury, Luna, Ceres, Vesta, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto, Titan, Enceladus, Triton, Pluto, Eris and other dwarfs and moons.

I only list Mercury because I suppose there is a chance that it had water on it's surface some time a long time ago, very early in the solar systems history.  An argument might be made for the Moon Luna, as it did have a atmosphere of sorts at least once.

https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/an-at … nar-water/  Quote:

An Atmosphere Around the Moon? NASA Research Suggests Significant Atmosphere in Lunar Past and Possible Source of Lunar Water

Quote:

The ancient lunar atmosphere was thicker than the atmosphere of Mars today and was likely capable of weathering rocks and producing windstorms. Perhaps most importantly, it could be a source for some, if not all, of the water detected on the Moon.

Quote:

The short-lived atmosphere — estimated to have lasted approximately 70 million years — was comprised primarily of carbon monoxide, sulfur and water. As volcanic activity declined, the release of the gases also declined. What atmosphere existed was either lost to space or became part of the surface of the Moon.

A crack ocean if it existed, could be deeper than the one that may exist on Mars.  The gravity is less and the Moon cooled faster, at least in places perhaps, so, I offer it as a slight possibility.

And Ocean under the ice of Europa, Ceres, Pluto, and Eris might be deep as well.  If any surviving briny cold oceans exist on these worlds, the crack ocean in the crust might be warmer, maybe even hot in places.

If this were true for some such worlds, then I see no reason why rogue worlds might have such a thing as well.

In probing for life in such worlds, I think we have to be reasonable.  If it is common to exist in such environments, then it is not necessarily more important than the survival of the human race.  And greatest caution should be to protect humans from it.

But I agree with Dr. Robert Zubrin, probably these organisms would not be tuned to prey on humans.  But we might not want to introduce them to the Earth deep biosphere.

And what organisms we might introduce to such worlds probably cannot infect the deep biospheres of those worlds to the extent of causing extinction.

We need to be careful of the people farmers, who use things similar to Climate Politics to extract wealth from the population of humans.  People who want to featherbed their lives in white collar positions.

Such people are the ones who might seek to establish an estate of power and control over the populations by establishing a negative view of human, and so to justify their right to control us.  Such claims say that they want to keep humans from harming innocent aliens.  But no, like any fit parasite, they need to keep their captive peoples weak so the better to eat them alive.

They sting you, removing your will, and ability to rebel and they drag you into a dark hole where they or their magot children can eat you slowly.

We should say "NO!" and do it with force if need be.  Rape is not nice, and neither is what they do.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-23 19:55:45)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#88 2025-08-25 08:40:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

This would be nice: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1Lbd3e  Quote:

Forget Planet X! Beyond Neptune, There Might Be An Earth-Sized Planet Y
Story by Dr. Alfredo Carpineti • 2d •
3 min read

I would like something slightly less than the mass of Earth, with a set of moons perhaps.

But of course odds are rather low for that.  But a Super Earth or Earth sized with a significant moon would be useful.

We could establish robots on each of these, perhaps even the Super Earth, if there is one.  Geothermal from a Super Earth could be beamed up to a Moon where humans might better dwell.

Even if rockets could not escape the Super Earth robots assigned to work on the Super Earth would not be stranded there, as their minds could be beamed back and forth.  And Humans as well, could have robot bodies on that Super Earth.

So, as a rogue planet scheme that as well could be a useful pattern.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-25 08:46:14)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#89 2025-08-25 09:56:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Continuing on similar lines to the previous post:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

A JuMBO Mystery - This Shouldn't Happen!
YouTube
Cool Worlds
328.5K views
Jul 11, 2024

I think this can be solved by combining both sources of rogue planets.  Ejection and Collapse.

Ejected objects in a stellar nursery or thick dust cloud could have a secondary condensation.  They might also condense moons around them from something resembling a Oort Cloud or Kuiper belt.

Probably easier for ejections in a star nursery, to have a secondary accretion within that nursery, but I would not rule out a rouge planet drifting into a thick cloud and then having an additional accretion event.

This then might create something I want very much.  A Super Earth with its own moons, as a rogue too cool to see with our current technology.

If we could find these, and particularly if nearby, then good things could be done, in my opinion.
Quote from post #88:

But of course odds are rather low for that.  But a Super Earth or Earth sized with a significant moon would be useful.

We could establish robots on each of these, perhaps even the Super Earth, if there is one.  Geothermal from a Super Earth could be beamed up to a Moon where humans might better dwell.

Even if rockets could not escape the Super Earth robots assigned to work on the Super Earth would not be stranded there, as their minds could be beamed back and forth.  And Humans as well, could have robot bodies on that Super Earth.

So, as a rogue planet scheme that as well could be a useful pattern.

So, the Super Earth could have a rocky surface, or an icy surface or a liquid water surface.  It would have significant Geo heat.  It might have winds.  The atmosphere might be crushing, but even so with any type of surface, it might be possible to establish energy harvesting, and the energy could be beamed to a moon, which hopefully would exist.

Robots on the Super Earth even if physically stranded could beam their minds up and down from the moon or moons.
Humans might likely only live on the moons or in orbit, but they also could have telepresence on the surface of the Super Earth.  Ideally one or more moon would not have completely differentiated so that rocky materials would be available.

If it turns out that fusion becomes an economic form of energy, then the vast atmosphere of the Super Earth could supply fusion fuels, and again energy to be beamed up to the moons.  (I hope a thick atmosphere would not block that).

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-08-25 10:09:15)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#90 2025-09-04 06:12:05

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Recent observations of interstellar comet 3I Atlas have revealed that it has a completely different ratio of nickel:iron than solar system objects.  It also contains an abundance of CO2, relatively little water ice and less CO than would be expected.  This tells us that interstellar objects will have a wide variety of compositions, that will be unique to where and when they happened to form.  Objects much older than the solar system will be dominated by water ice, ammonia, methane and hydrocarbons.  Objects that formed close to supernovae, may have a higher abundance of heavy elements like gold, platinum or uranium.  They will also come in a continuum of sizes.  Some will be larger than Jupiter and will be surrounded by extensive, though dark, planetary systems.  Many more will be just a few km in diameter.

We do not know which objects are more common.  But we don't get to choose.  We will find what we find.  Finding these bodies will be extraordinarily difficult.  Most will emit no visible light.  The temperature of the interstellar medium is around 4K.  Any body in the medium will be warmer than that.  Cosmic rays and impacts will impart small but measurable heating in their crusts.  And even small bodies will generate some heat through radioactive decay.  So there remains the possibility of detecting infrared signatures.  Cosmic rays interacting with bodies will generate secondary particles, some of which may be detectable from background flux at distance.

We could also try active scanning techniques.  Trillions of tiny probes equipped with radioisotope powered radio transmitters could be released into interstellar space.  These would release radio pulses at intervals.  If they experience velocity change through gravitational acceleration, the frequency of the radio pulses will undergo dopler shifting.  Far from any star, even small bodies would have very large radii of gravitational influence.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-09-04 06:21:10)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#91 2025-09-04 13:49:42

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re Vision of Deep Space Gravitational Sensing... https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 01#p234101

I like the vision you have described on multiple levels.

It will take a long lived government to pull off a project like that.  A realistic concept might be an AI powered "government" that is set up to perform just such data gathering.  We already have hints of what such systems might look like, in the highly automated networks of communications satellites already in orbit, along with numerous scientific sensor networks.

the key element not currently demonstrated is self-replication.  Once AI sensor collection systems become capable of replicating themselves, they should be able to expand into the entire solar system. 

Update: May I tag along with your vision a bit?  I would like to see every free flying object in the solar system fitted with a transponder. This will take a while, but it fits in nicely with your vision of trillions of gravity sensors.

Another application of the system you have proposed is solar system defense... A clever alien might be able to enter the system undetected in ordinary radiation, but they aren't likely to be able to avoid bending space time due to their mass, so a detection system on the scale of your vision should be able to not only detect them, but more importantly, detect the ** absence ** of signature in the electromagnetic spectrum.

(th)

I have no idea how practical the idea is.  But I envisage the microprobes being mass produced by the billion.  The probes would be extremely simple, with a beta voltaic generator, powered by a long lived fission product isotope like technetium-99.  The beta voltaic generator would charge up a capacitor.  When the capacitor reaches full charge, it releases a pulse of power generating a radio ping.  It would do this maybe once every day.  Two detectors seperated at different sides of the solar system could triagulate the position of the microprobe.  Any change in frequency of the radio pulse would indicate that the probe is experiencing velocity change due to a gravitational field.  But each detector would measure the doppler effect differently, allowing both the magnitude and direction of the acceleration to be tracked in real time.  Near Earth infrared telescopes could then focus on the area, searching for the IR signature of a body.

I wonder if the probes could be printed onto sheets of polymer?  They could then be cut out like stamps.  Solar sails could be used to accelerate batches of the probes to solar escape.  A flyby of a solar system body like Jupiter could be used to scatter the probes at different velocities.

Technetium-99 is a pure beta emitter with a half-life of 211,100 years.  This sets an approximate lifetime for the probe.  This isotope makes up about 6% of fission product waste, so should be an abundant material.  If ejected from the solar system at 30km/s, 200 trillion km before it becomes defunct.  That is 21 light years.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-09-04 14:03:50)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#92 2025-09-20 19:44:08

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

This calculator provides the Jean's escape parameter for an atmosphere around a body of known radius, mass and temperature.
https://agentcalc.com/jeans-escape-parameter-calculator

If the parameter is less than 3, gases escape rapidly.  If the value is greater than 10, an atmosphere can have a long lifetime by human standards.

I have been reading about superheavy gases, specifically sulphur hexaflouride.  This gas is extremely dense ~6kg/m3 at room temperature.  This makes the gas ground-hugging.  It remains trapped in a tank with open air above it, because its high density limits the rate of mixing.  It occurs to me that sulphur hexaflouride introduced onto a small rogue planet like Pluto, would tend to result in a strong thermal inversion within the atmosphere.  The SF6 close to the ground could be much warmer than nitrogen above it, because gaseous nitrogen remains less dense than SF6 is at room temperature, even when the nitrogen is close to its boiling point.  Any SF6 diffusing into the cold nitrogen layer, would rapidly freeze and fall back into the SF6 gas layer as snow.  Any nitrogen entering the SF6 layer, would absorb heat, making it less dense and causing it to rise back about the SF6.  The two layerswill therefore remain seperate, even if the lower SF6 layer is much warmer than the N2 above it.

Provided that colonists are able to provide an artificial heat source, and are able to locate sufficient flourine (a big if), ground conditions could remain warm, even with a cryogenic atmosphere above the SF6.  The SF6 functions as a kind of blanket.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#93 2025-09-20 21:10:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

I have not yet tried the calculator.  It is a bit more effort than a usually expend, at least for now.

But your reasoning is good it seems to me.

But there is another interesting circumstance with a Nitrogen atmosphere in interstellar space.  It is asserted that early Mars, was kept warm by molecular Hydrogen in its atmosphere.

I expect that if sufficient heat to evaporate a Nitrogen atmosphere could be obtained, the interstellar medium might likely infuse the atmosphere with molecular Hydrogen and Helium.

https://www.sciencenewstoday.org/hydrog … early-mars
Quote:

Hydrogen Cycles and Episodic Warming on Early Mars
Muhammad TuhinJanuary 29, 2025

Image Quote: explaining-persistent.jpg

Of course that would be a CO2/N2/H2 atmopshere.

Titan interests me in this.  I think it already has Molecular Hydrogen in its atmosphere though.  Maybe more would help warm it though.

And SF6 as suggested by you might be interesting.  However we might evaporate lots of CO2 and Methane and so swell the atmosphere.  Not sure if that is good or bad.  An atmosphere not stirred too much by wind might allow the CO2 to tend to settle down near the surface as well, but water ice could remain frozen as a rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Titan
Quote:

Titan's lower atmosphere is primarily composed of nitrogen (94.2%), methane (5.65%), and hydrogen (0.099%).

A feature of Titan that is locked in the previous time is dunes around the equator.  The scientific community wants to insist that it is ice particles, but a new theory allows that at least some of it could be comet dust.  After all if a comet strikes Titan and vaporizes, the dust may very well dry out and the ices not so much condense back on to it.

And we might discover Cryovolcanic deposits and might hope that salts including uranium salts could be available at or near the surface.

I have for long been interested in what I might call cold terrestrials or Titan analogs.  Even around a red dwarf, they might hold atmosphere I hope and might even not be tidal locked.  Probably all of the planets of Trappist-1 are tidal locked but maybe not the outermost one.

But rogues the size of Titan up to Earth size might be very interesting.  For instance, if struck by a large comet, they might develop a temporary atmosphere which might blow dry comet dust around before the atmosphere froze out.

This and the fact that there should have been a continuing influx of dust over billions of years, may make your suggesting with the added elements in this post very interesting.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-09-20 21:31:11)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#94 2025-09-29 05:04:03

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Turns out Makemake has an atmosphere, albeit a very thin one.
https://www.space.com/astronomy/dwarf-p … scientists

This is surprising, because methane is a light gas and a world as small as this should not be able to hold it.  The very low temperature this far from the sun no doubt reduces the vapour pressure of methane.  So escape is a slow process.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#95 2025-09-30 12:21:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Nice Calliban.

Issac Arthur has this latest gift for us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GboWwqzAHEo
Quote:

New Dwarf Planet Discovered... A Minor Planet With a Major Future?

Isaac Arthur
823K subscribers

Dry rock resources could be sent out to these worlds, perhaps with lasers.  To Makemake, this one and others.

Isaac Arthur suggests that this new Dwarf Planet could be nudged into being a rogue planet rather easily.  So, then an ark traveling the galaxy.

It's only a paper moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
Quote:

Ella Fitzgerald - It’s Only a Paper Moon
YouTube
Jazz Everyday!
934.7K views

So, although there are likly to be rocky inclusions, I suggest that for these dwarfs we could make "Paper moons".

Maybe cellulose moons?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose
Quote:

Cellulose is a complex carbohydrate made up of long chains of glucose units, forming the primary structural component of plant cell walls. It comprises about 33% of all vegetable matter and is the most abundant organic polymer on Earth. Cellulose is found in all plant foods and is used in various applications, including the production of adhesives, sponges, and as a dietary fiber. Its chemical formula is (C6H10O5)n, where "n" indicates the number of glucose units.
Wikipedia
+3

So, water ice, Methane, Ammonia, CO2 and so on.  Could be glued with ice but maybe glued with glue.

Got down to a thin ice-covered ocean layer that allows mining the rocky core.

I also wonder about a laser relay.

That is is lasers could send light that far, overlapping, to say make a luminosity less than that of Earth, but that then being converted to electricity to drive lasers that shine onto Dwarf Planets further out.

Some of the waste heat could be used to keep the created ocean thawed.

And then again, we hope for both fusion and fission.  There should be lots of heavy elements at the core of these worlds.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-09-30 12:39:18)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#96 2025-09-30 18:02:02

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

Void, that is interesting.  It is worth remembering that most of the mass of a space habitat will be cosmic ray shielding.  Ice can be used for this purpose.  It doesn't need to rotate.  The metal shell of an Island 1 colony was estimated to mass around 100KT.  But the shielding would mass at least 3MT.  The mass of the air within it is also not trivial.

Using KBOs as starships makes no sense.  These bodies have huge mass and the energy needed to dV them by any practical amount is just enormous.  The only caveat is if we find a rogue object that is already travelling in the direction we want to go at a respectable speed.  That is possible.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

#97 2025-10-01 07:42:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

I think I mostly agree with you Calliban, it was just an instance where Isaac Arthur pointed out that the additional speed needed to exit the suns gravity well was about that for a jet liner, so relatively small.

But in a sense these objects are already transiting the galaxy with our sun aren't they?  These worlds will likely survive the red and white dwarf stages our star.  And if our star loses about 1/2 of its mass then they will likely go rogue as their speed will exceed the gravity of the sun.

Somehow, though I don't think that anything like current humans will be around then.  We are recent arrivals and not likely to be unchanged.

But humans like certain animals may learn to make paper as shelter in space before that.

None of these are my favorite animals but they do work with paper, quote:

Copilot Search Branding

Three animals, paper wasps, hornets, and yellowjackets, have independently invented the making of paper. Paper wasps use small particles of wood gnawed off from trees and wood posts as their raw material, mixing these fibers with their saliva.

Do you think that it may be possible to manufacture a paper/cardboard/? shell around a dwarf planet, beyond its hill sphere and hold it in place by some means?  I am very uncertain about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Quote: 1024px-Lagrange_points2.svg.png

OK, maybe that is not the thing to do. 

Anyway you could make a giant moon out of Paper/Cardboard/Wood perhaps.

https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/new-h … -on-pluto/
Quote:

Additionally, new compositional data from New Horizons’ Ralph instrument indicate that the center of Sputnik Planum is rich in nitrogen, carbon monoxide, and methane ices. “At Pluto’s temperatures of minus-390 degrees Fahrenheit, these ices can flow like a glacier,” said Bill McKinnon, of Washington University in St. Louis, deputy leader of the New Horizons Geology, Geophysics and Imaging team. In the southernmost region of the heart, adjacent to the dark equatorial region, it appears that ancient, heavily-cratered terrain (informally named “Cthulhu Regio”) has been invaded by much newer icy deposits.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File … cture2.jpg
Image Quote: 1200px-Pluto%27s_internal_structure2.jpg?20190702092514

So, could the ices be removed and used to construct mega-structures in orbit of Pluto?

Not sure that diagram is accurate.

Perhaps giant wooden/paper/cardboard/water ice shells even in a solar orbit not in orbit of Pluto.

I am thinking of getting to the core materials.

Perhaps lasers from the interior of the solar system could provide the energy to do this.

Yes, this is a bit lame, but if you could make a paper shell, could you cause it to have a changed solar orbit by shining lasers on to one side of it?  sEvXTDn.png

This would be unlike a solar moth which has to expel mass, it would be pushed by photons.

A method perhaps to draw paper objects inward in the solar system.  Co-operation might be likely between the inner and outer solar system as the inner supplying the laser light from sunlight to the outer solar system, and the outer solar system supplying the wood/paper/cardboard shells.

The downside of relying on lasers from inside the orbit of Mercury for instance, is why would the people there send the laser power?  But if they get payment in wood/paper/cardboard, perhaps they would like to do so.



Ending Pending smile



Quote:

Copilot Search Branding


Wood is primarily composed of several substances, including:
Cellulose: 40-50% - The primary structural component providing strength and rigidity.
1
Hemicellulose: 20-30% - A polysaccharide that contributes flexibility.
1
Lignin: 15-30% - Provides rigidity and resistance against decay.
1
Extractives: 1-5% - Includes resins, oils, and tannins that affect color, odor, and durability.
1
Minerals: 0.1-1% - Inorganic components like calcium, potassium, and magnesium.
1

These components contribute to wood's strength, durability, and resilience, making it suitable for various applications.
1


3 Sources

https://hobbydisiac.com/chemical-properties-of-wood/


Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-10-01 08:36:26)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#98 2025-10-01 09:19:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

But perhaps this could work better than lasers:

Quote:

Copilot Search Branding

Images
Videos
The concept of using relativistic electron beams for space propulsion presents a promising solution for interstellar travel. These beams, consisting of electrons accelerated close to the speed of light, could deliver sufficient kinetic energy to spacecraft, enabling them to reach significant speeds. The "relativistic pinch" effect, which stabilizes the beam's structure, allows the beam to remain focused over longer distances without significant scattering. This method could potentially transmit power over thousands of times the distance from Earth to the Sun, making interstellar travel feasible within a human lifetime. However, challenges remain, including the need for a beam-generating spacecraft powered by sunlight near the Sun and the efficient conversion of beam energy into propulsion without overheating the spacecraft.
Space.com
+5

https://www.space.com/space-exploration … ravel-tech
Quote:

Beam me to the stars: Scientists propose wild new interstellar travel tech
News
By Victoria Corless published January 22, 2025
"Chemical rockets that we use today, even with the extra speed boost from flying by planets, or from swinging by the sun for a boost, just don't have the ability to scale to useful interstellar speeds."

So, if you have a huge paper sphere, can you bombard it with such an electron beam without destroying it?

Is the electron beam an efficient way to transport energy from inner orbits to outer orbits?
Quote:

"If this all works right, we can hold the beam together in space a very long distance — thousands of times the distance from Earth to the sun — and that would provide the power to accelerate a spacecraft."

A paper sphere would allow for a very large target to hit, but would transfer the push to the entire sphere.

I wonder if you could power a TARS with this sort of beam?

Of course you know about TARS Calliban: https://sciencereader.com/a-new-interst … d-t-a-r-s/

So, I wonder about using electron beams to push it.  From say the inner solar system.

A paper sphere might spin as well if you push on it with an electron beam.

But you could put an anchor tether on it, I think, to prevent spinning.  As I recall tethers will tend to orient with one end lower in a gravity well than the other end.

If we could find ways to move materials around the solar system with electron beams that would be worth something.

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-10-01 09:32:43)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#99 2025-10-01 09:41:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,885

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

I wonder if you could exploit the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarkovsky_effect

Yarkovsky effect?

In the other solar system the Yarkovsky effect could exist from a method of beamed power, I suppose.

But where we could begin to build paper spheres would be in the Asteroid belt, I think.

So, in using an electron beam could we spin a sphere in such a manner to exploit the Yarkovsky effect for space propulsion?

Interesting notion.  If the sunward side of the paper heats up and then rotates to the leeward side, then does the emission of photons give a propulsive push?

Of course the paper has to be of the correct thickness and other suitable qualities, such as pigment, and other things.

Ending Pending smile

No more coffee, I think!

Ending Pending smile

Last edited by Void (2025-10-01 09:49:22)


Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

Offline

Like button can go here

#100 2025-10-02 05:46:15

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196

Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?

A while back, someone proposed building a rotating statite.  This would gradually accumulate rotational energy that could then be used to launch payloads.

I wondered about building such a device in the asteroid belt.  A while back we discussed mining ice from Ceres and then firing ice packages onto an orbit that intersects the orbit of Mars.  As the ice packets explode in the upper atmosphere, they would saturate the Martian ionosphere with water vapour.  This would have a global warming effect.  Additionally, solar UV would break down the water vapour into hydrogen and oxygen.  The hydrogen would escape and the oxygen would accumulate within the atmosphere.

It would take many centuries to build a breathable atmosphere in this way.  We would need something like 700,000km3 of ice to do it.  But patience is essential for terraforming.  To do the job in 700 years, we could need to deliver 32,000 tonnes of ice every second.  That means either a very big statite or more likely, lots of smaller ones.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-10-02 05:49:40)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

Like button can go here

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB