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This topic is about Molecular Sieve's
It opens with Post #3 ... a conversation with Google's Gemini (2.5 Flash) about ancient fish traps created by indigenous cultures.
This topic is available for NewMars members who might wish to contribute links, images or text about management of individual molecules.
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Post #3: Conversation with Gemini - history from fish traps to molecular sieves
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This post shows a conversation with Google's Gemini about methods of collecting randomly moving objects, from fish to molecules
Conversation with Gemini
Fish trap reminder - Hi Gemini! Thank you for your assistance with many previous requests! In this one, I am hoping this will be easy for you (compared so some requests). Years ago, I read about a kind of fish trap made by Native Americans. It has a cone shape at the entrance, and a net of some kind for the body. My recollection is that fish could enter the entrance but then not find their way out. Something like that may be used even today to collect animals such as cattle. I'm interested in capturing slippery balls, and a trap like that might help.
That's a fascinating concept, and you're spot on! The type of trap you're describing is known as a funnel trap or weir.
How it Works
The basic principle, whether for fish, cattle, or even your slippery balls, is to create an entrance that's easy to get into but difficult to exit.
Cone-Shaped Entrance (Funnel): This is the key element. The wide part of the cone faces outward, allowing easy entry. As the fish (or slippery ball) moves further in, the cone narrows. Once inside the main body of the trap, finding the small, narrow exit of the funnel becomes very difficult.
Collection Chamber (Net or Enclosure): After passing through the funnel, the target enters a larger area. For fish, this is often a net or a basket. For larger animals like cattle, it would be a corral or pen. The purpose of this chamber is to hold the captured items.
Applications
Traditional Fish Traps: Many Indigenous cultures around the world developed sophisticated weir systems using natural materials like reeds, sticks, and stones. These traps would often be placed in rivers or tidal areas, funneling fish into a collection area with the incoming or outgoing tide.
Modern Fishing: Funnel traps are still used in various forms today, from lobster and crab pots to some commercial fishing nets.
Livestock Management: Large-scale funnel systems are indeed used to guide and collect livestock, making it easier to sort, treat, or transport them.
Your Slippery Balls: This design sounds very promising for capturing slippery balls! The smooth, narrowing cone would guide them in, and the collection net or chamber would hold them once they're past the "point of no return."
Design Considerations for Slippery Balls
When designing a trap for your slippery balls, you might want to consider:
Material: Something smooth and perhaps slightly flexible for the funnel to encourage easy entry and prevent them from bouncing back out.
Funnel Angle: Experiment with the angle of the cone. A steeper angle might make it harder to exit.
Collection Area: A net with small enough mesh or a solid container to prevent the balls from escaping once inside.
It sounds like a fun project! Let me know if you have any more questions about the design or other aspects of these traps.
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Thank you for your generous response, and for the wealth of examples from human history to illustrate the concept. The "slippery balls" I want to capture are molecules. After reading your reply, I realized it might not be out of order to ask if you have ever heard of anyone tackling that problem? I have not, which is why I decided to ask for your assistance.
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That's a fantastic leap! You're thinking about extending the concept of a macroscopic "funnel trap" to the molecular scale, which is an active and exciting area of research in chemistry, materials science, and nanotechnology.While it's not always a literal "net" in the way we think of fishing, the principle of creating a structure that guides molecules in and then restricts their exit is absolutely utilized. Here's how scientists are tackling the problem of "capturing slippery balls" (molecules) at the nanoscale:
1. Ion Funnels and Traps in Mass Spectrometry
You hit on a very direct analogy with your "slippery balls" idea. In mass spectrometry, especially in fields like proteomics and metabolomics, researchers often need to capture and concentrate ions (charged molecules) before they can be analyzed. Ion funnels are a prime example.
How they work: These devices use a series of ring electrodes with carefully applied radio frequency (RF) and direct current (DC) voltages. The combination of these fields creates a "funnel" or potential energy landscape that guides ions from a high-pressure region into a lower-pressure vacuum chamber. The electric fields effectively "trap" the ions, allowing them to accumulate and be concentrated before being pulsed out for analysis.
Why it's like your trap: The varying electric fields create a path that encourages movement in one direction (into the trap) and discourages escape, much like the physical narrowing of a funnel.
2. Molecular Sieves (Zeolites, MOFs, COFs)
These are materials with precisely engineered pores that act as "molecular traps" based on size and shape.
Zeolites: These are crystalline aluminosilicates with well-defined, uniform pores and channels. They are widely used in industry for separation (e.g., separating nitrogen from oxygen in air) and catalysis. They work by selectively allowing molecules smaller than their pore size to enter and get "trapped" or adsorbed, while larger molecules are excluded.
Metal-Organic Frameworks (MOFs) and Covalent Organic Frameworks (COFs): These are more recent classes of highly porous materials that can be designed with incredible precision. They consist of metal ions or clusters (in MOFs) or organic building blocks (in COFs) linked together by organic molecules to form vast, open, and ordered structures.
How they work as traps: The pores in MOFs and COFs can be tuned to be specific sizes and shapes, allowing them to selectively "trap" certain gas molecules (like CO2, H2, or even toxic gases) while letting others pass through. The "trap" isn't just about size; it can also involve specific chemical interactions within the pore that bind the target molecule.
Analogy: Imagine a highly intricate, nanoscale labyrinth where only molecules of a certain dimension and "stickiness" can navigate and get held within the structure.
3. Molecular Cages and Host-Guest Chemistry (Cyclodextrins, Cucurbiturils)
This field involves designing specific molecules that have internal cavities capable of encapsulating other molecules.
Cyclodextrins: These are cyclic oligosaccharides (sugar molecules) that have a truncated cone or doughnut shape. Their interior is hydrophobic, while their exterior is hydrophilic.
How they work: They can "trap" hydrophobic guest molecules within their cavity in aqueous solutions. The guest molecule fits snugly inside, forming a "host-guest complex." This can improve the solubility of poorly soluble drugs, protect sensitive molecules from degradation, or control their release.
Cucurbiturils: These are barrel-shaped macrocyclic molecules with a hydrophobic cavity and polar portals.
How they work: Similar to cyclodextrins, they can encapsulate a wide range of guest molecules, often with very strong binding affinities. They are being explored for drug delivery, sensing, and molecular separation.
Analogy: These are like individual, tiny, pre-formed "baskets" or "cages" that are perfectly sized and shaped to hold a specific molecular "ball."
4. Nanopores and Nanochannels
These are tiny holes or channels fabricated in materials, often used for single-molecule analysis.
How they work: By applying an electric field, molecules (especially long polymers like DNA) can be drawn into and through these nanopores or nanochannels. Researchers are experimenting with funnel-shaped inlets to these nanochannels to improve the "capture rate" and guide molecules more efficiently into the narrow confines.
Analogy: This is a more direct "funnel" in the physical sense, where the geometry guides the molecule from a larger space into a very constricted pathway.
Why this is challenging at the molecular level:
Brownian Motion: Molecules are constantly moving randomly due to thermal energy. Designing a trap that can overcome this chaotic motion and effectively direct molecules is a huge challenge.
Size and Interaction: The "trap" needs to be precisely the right size and have the right chemical interactions to selectively capture the desired molecules without "sticking" to everything else or letting the target escape too easily.
Fabrication: Creating structures with molecular-level precision is incredibly difficult, often requiring advanced nanofabrication techniques.
So, yes, the concept of a "funnel trap" for molecules is definitely something scientists are tackling, albeit with very different "materials" and "forces" than those used for fish or cattle! It's a fascinating area of research with implications for everything from drug delivery to advanced separation technologies.
Thank you for this fascinating and helpful reply! It may be of interest to others, so I'll post it in a small international forum and give you credit as I always to.
That's very kind of you! I'm delighted to hear that the information is helpful and that you'll be sharing it. Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions or topics you'd like to explore. I'm always here to assist!
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