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#1 2003-10-27 00:12:27

Hazer
Member
From: Texas/Oklahoma
Registered: 2003-10-26
Posts: 173

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Is it really fair to confine any extraterrestrials we might meet to our preconceived ideas about what they should be?  Many UFO enthusiasts whom I have talked with always maintain that the extraterrestrials they supposedly contacted are somehow "Wiser" then us.
I wonder, perhaps us humans AREN'T the worst thing out there.  Would it then be better for us to tread a mite cautiously into the harsh darkness of space?
All I say is this: "Allow any extraterrestrials the opportunity to be as capricious and wicked as we can be."[/color:post_uid0]


In the interests of my species
I am a firm supporter of stepping out into this great universe both armed and dangerous.

Bootprints in red dust, or bust!

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#2 2003-10-27 10:02:23

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It's really a wonder, really, that we seem to be capable of accomplishing whatever we can conceive of doing. We should be much more respectful of human life and intelligence (not to mention nature in general, on Earth) instead of frittering our lives away when not using our intelligence rationally.  Any alien species we meet will be hard put to match us "out there" by the time we've overcome all the challanges remaining before that happens. It wouldn't be good to be caught "on the ground" before we are spacefaring, though. . . .[/color:post_uid0]

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#3 2003-10-27 17:51:32

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Given the historical examples of what happens when one civilization encounters another of significantly less-developed technology it would seem prudent not to advertise our presence until we are prepared, if not to fight, then at least to flee. Some would say I'm paranoid, but I would call it being sensible.

Maybe the first alien civilization we encounter will be wise and benevelont, but maybe they'll be the galactic equivalent of the British Empire; not evil but not terribly concerned with us primitives. Perhaps they'll be overtly hostile. In any case, I would prefer to meet them out there.[/color:post_uid0]


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#4 2003-10-27 17:54:45

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid4]We are indeed a formidable species as far as aggression is concerned and I would tend to worry more for the safety of ET than for our own - at least on that score!
    But then again, we may not be in a position to even imagine the kinds of technology available to some species out there. Try to visualise an army of Assyrians, confident that their latest swords, made of iron, were the last word in technology, coming face to face with a battalion of today's infantry. The Assyrians would be completely routed by technology only two and a half millenia ahead of their own.
    Now visualise us facing technology millions of years in advance of ours. It would be like Star Wars versus a troop of chimpanzees!
                                            sad[/color:post_uid4]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#5 2003-10-27 18:13:12

Byron
Member
From: Florida, USA
Registered: 2002-05-16
Posts: 844

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]We are indeed a formidable species as far as aggression is concerned and I would tend to worry more for the safety of ET than for our own - at least on that score!
    But then again, we may not be in a position to even imagine the kinds of technology available to some species out there. Try to visualise an army of Assyrians, confident that their latest swords, made of iron, were the last word in technology, coming face to face with a battalion of today's infantry. The Assyrians would be completely routed by technology only two and a half millenia ahead of their own.
    Now visualise us facing technology millions of years in advance of ours. It would be like Star Wars versus a troop of chimpanzees!
                                            sad[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Tell me about it!  yikes

B[/color:post_uid0]

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#6 2003-10-27 20:23:52

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#810541:post_uid2]*Star Wars versus a troop of chimpanzees...LOL!  smile  Good one, Shaun.

Hazer:  "Is it really fair to confine any extraterrestrials we might meet to our preconceived ideas about what they should be?"

*I definitely think it's not wise; assumptions seldom are.

Hazer:  "Many UFO enthusiasts whom I have talked with always maintain that the extraterrestrials they supposedly contacted are somehow "Wiser" then us."

*Yes, just like New Age "channelers" always get in touch with infinitely wise, infinitely loving, infinitely gentle, etc., etc., "spirit guides."  Some of this is understandable, though, to me anyway:  We're still a young species, it can be a hard, unfair and cruel world, and we still sometimes (oftentimes?) want that protective, caring older sibling hovering about and "being there" for us.

Hazer:  "I wonder, perhaps us humans AREN'T the worst thing out there."

*Well, it does seem many humans tend to engage in a bit of self-loathing when considering possible differences.  For instance, all those races of other space-faring beings always looking down their noses and despising us Earthlings in Star Trek...and Capt. Kirk and others always dishing out apologetics-style replies.  wink  Of course, some sci-fi also presents them as The Bad Guys and us as the Misunderstood Good Guys.

Hazer:  "Would it then be better for us to tread a mite cautiously into the harsh darkness of space?"

*When dealing with the unknown, I'd say yes.  Ounce of prevention/pound of cure...

--Cindy[/color:post_uid2]


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#7 2003-10-28 19:11:39

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Don't go looking for something unless you're reasonably sure you can kill it if you have to.

That's my thought. Now where did I put that planet-smasher...[/color:post_uid0]


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#8 2003-10-29 11:29:04

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Don't go looking for something unless you're reasonably sure you can kill it if you have to.
[/quote:post_uid0]

Wow. I wonder how you proposed to your wife.  ???  :laugh:[/color:post_uid0]

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#9 2003-10-29 19:26:25

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

[/quote:post_uid0]

Don't go looking for something unless you're reasonably sure you can kill it if you have to.
[/quote:post_uid0]

Wow. I wonder how you proposed to your wife.  ???  :laugh:[/quote:post_uid0]

HA! :laugh:  Those records are sealed.[/color:post_uid0]


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#10 2003-10-29 20:53:58

~Eternal~
Member
Registered: 2003-09-25
Posts: 211

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I believe in 'aliens'.
Achledi Liotflaci Di is a ship of the Andorean home world that orbits the Centauri star systems o_o...
I don't know how I know, its just a feeling o_o.[/color:post_uid0]


The MiniTruth passed its first act #001, comname: PATRIOT ACT on  October 26, 2001.

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#11 2003-10-30 17:25:47

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

We are indeed a formidable species as far as aggression is concerned and I would tend to worry more for the safety of ET than for our own - at least on that score!
    But then again, we may not be in a position to even imagine the kinds of technology available to some species out there. Try to visualise an army of Assyrians, confident that their latest swords, made of iron, were the last word in technology, coming face to face with a battalion of today's infantry. The Assyrians would be completely routed by technology only two and a half millenia ahead of their own.
    Now visualise us facing technology millions of years in advance of ours. It would be like Star Wars versus a troop of chimpanzees!
                                            sad[/quote:post_uid0]
You know, Shaun? I don't agree with you for once: The Assyrians must have been just as "smart" as we are, because 3,000 plus years isn't much time to advance "smarts." As far as weapons are concerned, modern weapons in the hands of someone without a modern education even, are kid's play. In fact, kids are turning out to be formidable soldiers with 'em, right? So, assuming intelligence to be a basic attribute to life however alien in makeup (viz. ability to figure out the universe and such, given time) the analogy of us as chimpanzees and "them" as us is a bit much, don't you want to reconsider? Because the monkeys'll never be able to learn by themselves (we know that now) but we'd be able to learn a helluva lot from the aliens, given the opportunity--and (if they don't watch out) catch up and even pass 'em too. Of course, if they're as competitive as we are, they may decide not to wait for us to catch up. . . .[/color:post_uid0]

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#12 2003-10-30 18:12:02

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

[[/quote:post_uid0]

The Assyrians must have been just as "smart" as we are, because 3,000 plus years isn't much time to advance "smarts."[/quote:post_uid0]

Ah, but intelligence and knowledge are often confused. If we gave a laptop computer to the Assyrians we [i:post_uid0]may[/i:post_uid0] be able to show them how to use it but they would never come close to figuring out how to build one themselves. I believe that was Shaun's point, we can't copy technology until we have a sufficient understanding of the principles of its operation.

Not that I'm going to start speaking for you, Shaun big_smile[/color:post_uid0]


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#13 2003-10-30 19:25:51

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]CC, when one's point is so eloquently and succinctly argued by another party, how can one complain?
                                             cool

    Your input is always appreciated, old sport! Thankyou for taking the time to respond to Dicktice on my behalf and I hope it answers his queries.[/color:post_uid0]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#14 2003-10-31 08:30:17

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Who of any of the present population "knows how to build and program a laptop?" Miniaturization isn't absolutely vital. The principles behind them are obvious, and capable of being expressed even mechanically. Spacecraft can be copied, and then utilized intelligently in common with "aliens" faced with the same challanges, which is my point.[/color:post_uid0]

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#15 2003-11-01 10:37:51

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

[/quote:post_uid0]

Who of any of the present population "knows how to build and program a laptop?" Miniaturization isn't absolutely vital. The principles behind them are obvious, and capable of being expressed even mechanically.[/quote:post_uid0]

The principles are only obvious if you have a frame of reference. The Assyrians wouldn't. Perhaps we would for alien technologies, perhaps not. We just don't know.

Spacecraft can be copied, and then utilized intelligently in common with "aliens" faced with the same challanges, which is my point.[/quote:post_uid0]

Alright, here's a scenario. We have an alien spacecraft. We are attempting to copy the propulsion system. We have cataloged all the parts and their design, but not their functions. We know [i:post_uid0]what[/i:post_uid0] the engine does but not quite [i:post_uid0]how[/i:post_uid0]. We [i:post_uid0]think[/i:post_uid0] we can copy it, but some components are composed of an alloy we have no clue how to manufacture. Our steel copies fused in tests. We can attempt to use alternative arrangements but since we don't really know what those parts do we can't come up with alternatives, aside from blind experimenting. This is the type of scenario we are like to have should we ever try to reverse-engineer an alien spacecraft.

Put another way, imagine the finest aircraft engineers of Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany trying to copy a B-2. They'll understand the concept, but where to start? They'll probably even try to copy the shape, despite the fact it it was intended primarily to reduce returns by radar, which doesn't even exist.

Only obvious with the right frame of reference.[/color:post_uid0]


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#16 2003-11-03 21:06:16

Free Spirit
Banned
Registered: 2003-06-12
Posts: 167

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I believe any species that develops advanced technology will have an aggressive streak simply because developing technology is an aggressive activity.  It's about obtaining mastery and control over nature and your fellow beings.  The fact that the military has been such a strong driver of new technology throughout the millenia of human history is good evidence of that.   So, unless the beings we meet are primitive and that way willingly, then we will likely see that we aren't alone in having genes for aggression.[/color:post_uid0]


My people don't call themselves Sioux or Dakota.  We call ourselves Ikce Wicasa, the natural humans, the free, wild, common people.  I am pleased to call myself that.  -Lame Deer

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#17 2003-11-04 07:46:45

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#810541:post_uid6]

I believe any species that develops advanced technology will have an aggressive streak simply because developing technology is an aggressive activity.  It's about obtaining mastery and control over nature and your fellow beings.  The fact that the military has been such a strong driver of new technology throughout the millenia of human history is good evidence of that.   So, unless the beings we meet are primitive and that way willingly, then we will likely see that we aren't alone in having genes for aggression.[/quote:post_uid6]
*That's been part of it certainly, but only [b:post_uid6]-part-[/b:post_uid6] of it.

Technology has also been pursued in order to make life easier, and to prolong life.

There's always a "flip side," Free Spirit.

The primitive people weren't easy-going, meek and nice angels:  There is more than abundant evidence that they were always seeking methods of improving their weaponry, killing/hunting tactics (not just of animals, but of their fellow humans as well), etc.  Life for primitive people wasn't all that wonderful, either.  I wouldn't care to live in a time or place without general anesthetics, smallpox vaccines, and over-the-counter remedies available at your corner Walgreen's to self-cure (usually very successfully and with little to no side effects) minor illnesses and the like.  Nowadays old people can receive laser surgery (relatively painless, and accomplished within an hour usually) to have cataracts removed so they can regain their sight.  That's just for starters.

People in general have always sought pleasure and shunned pain; technology can improve pleasure.

It's like most anything else:  How it's *used/applied.*  I'm not in favor of throwing the baby out with the bath water on this one.

--Cindy

P.S.:  Here's a film you may be interested in renting and watching:  "Silent Running."  It's "old," but very good.  I haven't seen it for years; I'd previously watched it a couple of times in the late 1970s/early 1980s, as the featured late-night movie on TV:

http://shipofdreams.net/sfmovies/silent.htm

I plan to purchase it for my home collection; a very poignant story.[/color:post_uid6]


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#18 2003-11-04 10:00:20

Byron
Member
From: Florida, USA
Registered: 2002-05-16
Posts: 844

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

P.S.:  Here's a film you may be interested in renting and watching:  "Silent Running."  It's "old," but very good.  I haven't seen it for years; I'd previously watched it a couple of times in the late 1970s/early 1980s, as the featured late-night movie on TV:

http://shipofdreams.net/sfmovies/silent.htm
[/quote:post_uid0]

I saw "Silent Running" on DVD not too long ago...it's a pretty cool movie smile

Has anyone on here seen "Robinson Crusoe on Mars?"  It was made in the mid 60's, and while it's rather primitive as sci-fi movies go, it was one of my favorites as a kid...

B[/color:post_uid0]

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#19 2003-11-04 14:03:00

Hazer
Member
From: Texas/Oklahoma
Registered: 2003-10-26
Posts: 173

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

I believe any species that develops advanced technology will have an aggressive streak simply because developing technology is an aggressive activity.[/quote:post_uid0]

And this causes me to ask the same question, can we make any reasonable assumptions about potential alien races?  We only have one source on which to base our assumptions-us humans.  This is why I consider SETI a silly venture.  The ETs could be similar enought to fit our assumptions, and then again, they may be so different that none of our assumptions or conclusions may apply.

This extends into all fields.  SETI for instance, has been looking for Exterestrial radio messages.  But the point is, they have no way to prove that what they recieve is an actual message and not some extraordinary coincidence.  Our digital signals for instance, are based on states of 0 and 1-on and off.  Any hypothetical alien race might have developed a similar system-and then again they might have a completely different system of electronics.
Anything that is purported to be a "message" could legitimately be something wholly unrelated to extraterrestrials.  It is open to reinterpretation.
First contact will occur when we actually meet aliens-and not before.[/color:post_uid0]


In the interests of my species
I am a firm supporter of stepping out into this great universe both armed and dangerous.

Bootprints in red dust, or bust!

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#20 2003-11-06 04:43:10

alokmohan
Member
From: india
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 169

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Do you believe the story?[/color:post_uid0]

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#21 2003-12-10 21:29:25

~Eternal~
Member
Registered: 2003-09-25
Posts: 211

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Yes Bryon! That was an awesome SciFi movie for its time,
but being able to live on the Martian surface for 10 minutes at a time o-o?
Anywho, I make all my assumptions based on an extra lil' variable I like to call God.
As the Bible says God created man in his image,
perhaps our alien cousins aren't so diffrent,
but then again how do we know the face of God  ??? .[/color:post_uid0]


The MiniTruth passed its first act #001, comname: PATRIOT ACT on  October 26, 2001.

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#22 2003-12-13 05:33:45

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET

[color=#000000:post_uid14]Hi Byron!
    Yep, I've seen it more than once.
    I remember the hero sitting in a cave with a piece of cloth, or something, draped over the entrance to trap a more oxygen-enriched atmosphere inside.
    I seem to remember he was heating up rocks he'd found, which gave of O2 (unless my memory's deceiving me? ).

    Although the rest of the movie was pretty fanciful, that concept of obtaining oxygen from the regolith could eventually turn out to be closer to the truth than the producer and script-writer could have realised!
                                         :;):   cool[/color:post_uid14]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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